07.14.2011 - Edge Encounters With Shame

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Zen :)
Arisia Vita: friends do not worry about typos
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Ok, so we've all moved around :))
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Zen!
Zon Kwan: zen heya
Zen (zen.arado): Hi all
FcSeeker: Hello Zen
Zen (zen.arado): how is everyone?
Zon Kwan: a bit ashamed
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I'm in a shameful state :)
Zen (zen.arado): shame
FcSeeker: having peacefull mind
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): (your genes?)
Zon Kwan: fc are you allright ?
FcSeeker: no, but I have peace in my mind
Zon Kwan: lol
Zen (zen.arado): if nothing can disturb that....
FcSeeker: (and feel love in my chest)
Zen (zen.arado): deep down is the peace
FcSeeker: yes
FcSeeker: so nothing can desturb it atm
Zen (zen.arado): the surface events come and go
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): So, I think we're all on the same page, but just for the record, we're discussing shame as an "edge" experience and as a way of knowing...
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Cal :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Cal!
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Cal :)
FcSeeker: Hello Cal
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): EXCELLENT essay, Cal!
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): waves to Cal :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I liked it, too :)
Calvino Rabeni: :)))))))))
Zen (zen.arado): quickly looks it up
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Guardian..._Knowing/Shame
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): thanks, Atari.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me waits for Cal to enter and join us.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me waves to Cal.
Zon Kwan: cal
Zen (zen.arado): yeh good report
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I liked the association of shame with empathy...that reminded me of an idea I'd heard of a number of years ago...
Zen (zen.arado): listens
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Of our identification "expanding" or "contracting"....to think of it in physical terms makes sense to me
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): When I'm ashamed, I want to burrow into myself; when I empathize, I'm becoming bigger than I was
Zen (zen.arado): yeh
Zen (zen.arado): want to get away from the group or person or idea that caused us to feel shame
Zen (zen.arado): so shame is caused by ohters?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me ponders" p[ysical terms" and thinks about how folks consider their body to be "inadequate" -- and are ashamed about their "inadequacy."
Zen (zen.arado): from us breaking the group norm they have set up for us?
Zon Kwan: connection..yes ..is relevant here
Zon Kwan: shame comes from a feeling of separateness
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): , I was so skinny that I couldn’t bear to be seen on the basketball court. I didn’t go out even for intramural basketball, because I knew that the girls would burst into laughter as soon as I ran out there in my jersey.
Zen (zen.arado): so much shame seems to be not acting or fitting a 'norm'?
Zon Kwan: shame is caused by one feeling being separate
Zen (zen.arado): yeh but thre feeling of separateness comes after the shame?
Zon Kwan: same time
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Ags and Aphrodite :)
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Boo!
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): :PP
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): EEK!
Aphrodite Macbain: Boo!
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Aggers and Aph
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Evening all
Zon Kwan: hi agatha
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Not sure if you would be here
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, aggers!
Aphrodite Macbain: hello everyone
Zen (zen.arado): or shame is not matchig up to a standard we have set up for ourselves?
Aphrodite Macbain: Bruce is an airplane
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Or Jesus :p
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes, you finally figures out that I am an airplane.
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): TWI?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think shame as a reaction to social norms makes sense...
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): When you were born, you brought a vibrant, extravagant, excitable, noisy, many-sided nature with you from eons of vegetable life, reptile life, mammal life, lion life, hunter life, aboriginal life – all of it lived before your human birth.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): How shameful :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): You brought it all and gave it to your parents as a gift, and they didn’t want it. Instead, they wanted a NICE boy.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): They said, “Can’t you be quiet? Why won’t you be a nice boy like the others?”
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ?” We figured out what kind of child they wanted, and we created a false self to please them. So your survival instinct did the right thing. It made up a false self and you survived.
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Calvino Rabeni: Nice, Bruce - yes, before and within human life
Aphrodite Macbain: Do you think shame is culturally determined and not natural?
Zen (zen.arado): parents often try to make children ashamed don't they? 'shame on you' 'you should be ashamed of yourself'
Aphrodite Macbain: It'sa means of controlling them
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): wb Zon :)
Zon Kwan: basically natural, but culturally colored in expressions
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Cal's essay suggests that "shame" might be adaptive to survival.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Shame is often about control or conformity, yes...
Calvino Rabeni: I think we all feel victimized by that process .. but also do a lot to create it and play both "sides"
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): which serves the "Group's" survival and therefore yours, also.
Zen (zen.arado): shame in a nutshell Violet :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder how we survive bettr with shame?
Zon Kwan: control
Zon Kwan: is needed
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Zen (zen.arado): or could we do without it?#
Aphrodite Macbain: We become more socialized and adaptable to our society
Calvino Rabeni: regulation, finding a happy medium
Zon Kwan: not yet
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Sometimes we can....
Zen (zen.arado): good to check that our shame is valid I think
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Sometimes shame doesn't really serve a purpose except to hold us back...there's that edge to it
Zon Kwan: we can..but others,,,
Aphrodite Macbain: it goes along with embarassment & self consciousness
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): . For example, a child can get caught shoplifting. I did – very shaming. --- That experience of shaming served both the society and me quite well.
Calvino Rabeni: I think nothing happens without it making sense to multiple reasons and purposes
Zen (zen.arado): we can still feel shame from outmoded moral values
Zon Kwan: yes...shame prevents persons to grow too
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): wb FcSeeker :)
FcSeeker: thank you
Aphrodite Macbain: I guess it is tied in with edges. When we go beyond the edge, we are punished by society and feel shame
Calvino Rabeni: Shame could be seen like a gardener pruning the tree of desire so that it grows in certain ways and not all over the place
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Hello FC :)
FcSeeker: Hello Agatha
Aphrodite Macbain: Nice metaphor Cal
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): without shaming, could the society survive?
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi FC
Zon Kwan: not this society
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): wb, Fc.
FcSeeker: Hi Aphrodite
FcSeeker: ty Bruce
Zon Kwan: but a more evolved could
Zen (zen.arado): but it is ust one mechanism of societal control
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi FC GTSY
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I like that image....but I have a fondness for messy trees, too :)
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): ha ha ha
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Look at how the Congress is trying to shame the other side -- supposing that by doing so their own party will survive.
FcSeeker: GTSY too Aphrodite
Aphrodite Macbain: Zen, that implies that shame is created by society and is not biologically dtermined
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ridiculous -- when everyone goes down the tubes.
Zon Kwan: shame has levels
Zen (zen.arado): newspapers dig up dirt about ppl to make them feel shame?
Aphrodite Macbain: HUh?
Aphrodite Macbain: Brice?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): it's an American thing -- not to worry.
Zen (zen.arado): or to make the ppl who didn't do what they did feel better about themselves
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): INHERITED SHAME is inherited shame from the far past. Shame of that sort is connected with certain secrets that your grandparents kept. For example, an uncle embezzled money; an aunt had a mental breakdown and was in an institution for a while; a child was retarded.
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes.
Zen (zen.arado): true Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: Shame can be felt even if their is no "fault" attached to it. Like having slaves in one's ancestry
Zen (zen.arado): wonder how much of it is genetic
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me listens for "levels" to shame.
Zen (zen.arado): maybe only the faculty of being able to experience it
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Sometimes we feel shame over things we perceive to be taboo, when no one else around us feels that way...
Zon Kwan: shame has it roots in being a separate ego..a metaphysical level
FcSeeker: is there something wrong with one who dont feel him/herself to be ashame of such things ?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): shame as an I-process, Zon?
Zon Kwan: yes
Zen (zen.arado): ha could be Zon...no ego no shame?
Aphrodite Macbain: Zon, can you say more?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): excellent point, Zen.... no ego no shame.
Zen (zen.arado): (no woman no cry)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :)
Zon Kwan: yup zen
Calvino Rabeni: levels to shame .. hmmm, for instance if there's just a slight breakdown in rapport with a social connection, one starts to feel just a little inappropriate, and seeks to adjust things, or if that doesn't work, feels out of place, that's a shame-like level that's in the moment and not too intense
Aphrodite Macbain: Public shaming must be the worst.
Aphrodite Macbain: /me thinks of many politicians
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): There is also shame for things we've done (or haven't done) and for things we are...
Zen (zen.arado): what should we do about shame?
Zon Kwan: shame means i compare myself against a bigger whole
Zon Kwan: and feel lacking
Aphrodite Macbain: Good question Zen
Calvino Rabeni: One really shadowed shame is ... what are we collectively, doing to the planet
Zen (zen.arado): check its validity first I think
Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm and whether we feel shame or anger
Calvino Rabeni: so, from in-the-moment with another person, to the big picture of the human species in the planet .. a lot of levels to it
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes Zen but how?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes...it's good to ask *why* we feel ashamed
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me thinks of the Scarlet Letter.
Zon Kwan: watch it
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Good point, Cal :)
Zen (zen.arado): it is often conditioned
Zon Kwan: as long as i am identified with my ego there will be shame
Aphrodite Macbain: bt=y what Zen?
Zon Kwan: nothing to do about it
Zen (zen.arado): oh from parents, friends, what we read
Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps talking about it? Apologizing? Acting upon it?
Aphrodite Macbain: Would that make the shame disappear?
Zen (zen.arado): but sometimes we should be ashamed Zon?
Aphrodite Macbain: only if we can take some sort of action
Zon Kwan: no
Zen (zen.arado): yeh deciding on more appropriate behaviour if the same type of situation arises again?
Aphrodite Macbain: otherwise it would sit and fester!
Zon Kwan: we should correct our behaviour
Zon Kwan: but not feel ashamed
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Sometimes shame can point us toward a better path; sometimes it keeps us stuck in a rut
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, if it is appropriate
Zen (zen.arado): but the shame is a motivator too?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes. but to what?
Calvino Rabeni: guilt seems more situational and open to remedial actions ... shame seems to involve ongoing issues of who one *is* rather than what one *does*
Zen (zen.arado): yes Vi...that's why I think validity checking is good
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Ego and shame: The idea is that if by 14, you’ve been shamed well enough by other people, you won’t need an external person to shame you anymore. You’ll do it yourself.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes Zen
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes, Cal
Aphrodite Macbain: Where did that idea come from Bruce?
Zen (zen.arado): but we are ashamed of our actions sometimes Cal?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes Bruce, we internalize problematic things to sort of deal with them in advance rather than bumping into them unawarely
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): It came from Robert Bly's SEVEN SOURCES OF SHAME.
Zen (zen.arado): something I said that I shouldn't have for instance...
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): (as have most of my other comments.)
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Why seven I wonder?
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Bruce
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Thanks, Bruce :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): 7 is the only number that is not ashamed of itself.
Calvino Rabeni: I think Zen we'd be ashamed of being the person who did the actions, there's a distinction there
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): It never got to be 14,
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Why?
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Ah
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Because it 8 9?
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Ah :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Huh.
Aphrodite Macbain: /me scratches her head
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): /me thinks of a Shakespeare play
Aphrodite Macbain: /me thinks of many Shakespear plays
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): He only said it in one :p
Zen (zen.arado): so we resolve to be a better person in future?
Zon Kwan: we make errors..we correct...to feel shame is only a hindrance
Zen (zen.arado): don't see a great distinction though
Calvino Rabeni: that's interesting Zen
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Is that the Edge, Zen?
Zen (zen.arado): but shame is a pointer
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I mostly agree, Zon
Aphrodite Macbain: sometimes others make us feel shameful inappropriately
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): a wake-up call?
Zen (zen.arado): if we didn't fell shame we wouldn't feel any need to improve our behaviour
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes, Zen
Aphrodite Macbain: we have to decide whether we should feel it or not
Calvino Rabeni: Being vs doing ... maybe it it's more about being .. meaning deeper and more fundamental, it feels like shame; whereas things that are external, about doing, we can feel distanced from
Calvino Rabeni: and say its about the action,not the person
Zen (zen.arado): I'm epeating myself I'm ashamed to say :)
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Wonder why Mila has hung her washing out at the pavilion?
Zen (zen.arado): (ashamed of my bad typing too)
Aphrodite Macbain: Aggie??
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Re this ego thing -- If we do not get a response from the "outer" world, we might feel indequate -- "I've I'd been adequate, they would have responded to me."
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Hiya Mil
Mila (milakel): aga girl :)
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Happy washday
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think shame is related to being....even our actions can make us ashamed of who we are ("I'm a bad person because ___")
Zen (zen.arado): I can feel ashamed about my body
FcSeeker: (thinks that one can want to improve ones behavier still even dont feel ashame)
Mila (milakel): hi :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Mila :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Mila!
Aphrodite Macbain: Hey Mila
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Mila :)
Zon Kwan: see ya
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Bye Zon
Aphrodite Macbain: yes Zen . That's why shame can be a very destructive emotione
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Zon :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): The "silent treatment" (no response) is one way of shaming... powerfully.
Zen (zen.arado): bye Zon
FcSeeker: namaste Zon
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye, Zon.
Calvino Rabeni: Shunning is powerful yes Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: That's my favourite Bruce!
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): And yes, Bruce, about response and self worth....
Zen (zen.arado): ostracizing
Calvino Rabeni: being devalued, marginalized
Aphrodite Macbain: Shunning is as old as society. Deptriving contact with others
Calvino Rabeni: having ones gifts ignored or not valued
Aphrodite Macbain: can be very destructive.
Calvino Rabeni: Shunning is probably as old as mammals
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- do other non human societies shun?
FcSeeker: yes
Zen (zen.arado): ugly duckling?
Calvino Rabeni: I think so ..those with pack type organizations, dogs, horses, etc.
Zen (zen.arado): that's just a story though :)
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): One of my favourites Zen
Zen (zen.arado): Danny Kaye
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): I remember him well
FcSeeker: me too :)
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): /me smiles
Zen (zen.arado): 'Iam a swan...ah gwan.
Aphrodite Macbain: /me sings "theer once was an ugly duckling, with feathers all stubby and brown"
Mila (milakel): how about "being late for a meeting" kind of shame?
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): :)))
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me loves Danny Kaye.
Aphrodite Macbain: me to
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): How about 'falling asleep at the pavilion'?
FcSeeker: me too
Aphrodite Macbain: he he Zen
Zen (zen.arado): hope you are ashamed of yourselves
FcSeeker: very much
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
Mila (milakel): aga :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks for the flowers Mila
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :)
Mila (milakel): :)
Mila (milakel): forgot about them :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me is still wondering about the "Edge."
Mila (milakel): they were a small addition to eliza's picnic setting at the pagoda
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and shame.
Aphrodite Macbain: /me thinks me too.
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Why is the washing haning up tho?
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): *hanging
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): shame is rampant with possibilities. . .
Aphrodite Macbain: were ar surrounded by edgest to bump into or fall off. some of them lead to feelings of shame
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): excellent, Aph!
Aphrodite Macbain: probably to dray
Mila (milakel): aph, examples, please :)
Aphrodite Macbain: dry
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Of course...silly me
Aphrodite Macbain: some of them lead to deluight and discovery
Aphrodite Macbain: delight
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): There is an old film called "The Edge" with Anthony Hopkins and a big bear in it. Odly enough in that he tells the survivors of his plane crash that the biggest reason why stranded people die is because they feel shame. Just thought I'd chuck that in as trivia :))
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I'll check that movie out, Cal.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I mean, Lolli.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): That's an interesting thought
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hmm. I saw that. I still can't figure out what he meant
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): :)))
Zen (zen.arado): do they eat each other Lolli?
Mila (milakel): julie, interesting. probably it leads to despair.
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): They couldn't get over believing that it was there fault they were in that situation perhaps?
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Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Could be....
Aphrodite Macbain: We can be frozen when our emotions take over
Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes called survivor's guilt
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): No Zen - they didn't eat each other !! LOL!!!
Aphrodite Macbain: only if they survive Cal;
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): They were vegans
Aphrodite Macbain: /me giggles
Aphrodite Macbain: so, shame...
Calvino Rabeni: yeah they survived the plane crash ... knew perhaps life wasn't fair to spare them and take the others
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder whether there are societies that dont have shame
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I felt that I was somehow responsible for the assassinations of both JFK and his brother Robert -- because I was in those sities at the time -- and I saw JFK at the airport in Dallas when he arrived..
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): cities*
Mila (milakel): shame is good in retrospect as experience to learn from, but not helpful in resolving the issue.
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Really Bruce?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): It took me years to work myself out of that.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I agree, Mila
Aphrodite Macbain: usually you feel it after the fact, not before
Calvino Rabeni: Not sure, I'd be surprised to learn of a shame-free society
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): guit through physical presence. - - - maybe like the plane crash survivors.
Aphrodite Macbain: Were we shame free when we were hippies?
Zen (zen.arado): group shame
Zen (zen.arado): tried to be Aph :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me was the only resident of Berkeley inthe 60's who was not a hippie.
Calvino Rabeni: No, Aphro, we wer probably ashamed of having profits and good clothes or whatever
Aphrodite Macbain: love is not having to say you're sorry...
Mila (milakel): bruce, interesting. i think it's your sense of connectedness probably.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Oh, you're famous, Bruce :)
Zen (zen.arado): yeh ashamed of being conformist
Aphrodite Macbain: yay Bruce
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Perhaps Bruce was the face at the window ;-)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I've always liked that thought, Aphrodite
Calvino Rabeni: The hippies were an experiment with shifting the value systems that defined what shame would be ABOUT
Calvino Rabeni: but it was so easy to be "uncool" :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me is also the only American male who has never played a computeized game -- but is not ashamed of it.
Mila (milakel): oh no, bruce! :)
Calvino Rabeni: Hey Bruce, I never did either :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I know a few others...
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yeppers!
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): YAYYYY for Cal and Bruce!
Zen (zen.arado): I was never keen on them either
Calvino Rabeni: hehe
Zen (zen.arado): confession time
Aphrodite Macbain: They play in SL instead
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and Zen, too!
Mila (milakel): wait, bruce... sl *is* a computerized game! :)
Aphrodite Macbain: exactly
Zen (zen.arado): no it isn't MIla
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): not for moi, it isn't.
Mila (milakel): *giggles*
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): It isn't a game
Zen (zen.arado): no shoot ups
Zen (zen.arado): just shoot downs
Aphrodite Macbain: It's a form of game. "Playing" as being
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me wonders who's keeping score.
Zen (zen.arado): ah you got us there Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: dressing up, flying. poofing
Aphrodite Macbain: fun stuff
Mila (milakel): well, at least once someone had to play tetris! :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Fighting off the tireless lag monsters...
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): then all of life (RL or SL) is also a game.
Aphrodite Macbain: and then, all that talking!
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, some call it a dance bruce
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Time for me to scratch up some chow...
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Bruce :)
Zen (zen.arado): what about a topic for next week?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): THANKS EVERYONE!
Aphrodite Macbain: Bon voyage Bruce
Zen (zen.arado): bye Bruce
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Take care Brucie
Mila (milakel): let's jump from shame to pride :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Play, perhaps?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Or pride... :)
Zen (zen.arado): pride and prejudice?
Mila (milakel): hehe
Mila (milakel): please, no :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :)
Calvino Rabeni: Pride seems the label for another side of the connection phenomenon
Mila (milakel): how so, cal?
Calvino Rabeni: Same territory, different angle on it
Zen (zen.arado): ok shall we do pride then?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Pride as another facet of shame, and not as its opposite?
Aphrodite Macbain: flip side
Calvino Rabeni: sure, if it is an opposite, it is another end of the same thing
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): un-pride?
Calvino Rabeni: same coin
Aphrodite Macbain: "The flip side of Sham" good name for a novel
Aphrodite Macbain: Shame!
Arisia Vita: rl calls, and I must answer, be well and happy till we meet again
FcSeeker: takes a humble bow
Zen (zen.arado): bye Ari
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Be well, Ari :)
FcSeeker: namaste
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Bye Arisia :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Arisia
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Bye Ari & FC
Calvino Rabeni: Bye FC, Ari
Zen (zen.arado): bye Fc
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care Fc :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): I have to go to. Thanks everyone and be well :))
Aphrodite Macbain: I ahve to go too. Bye! everyone
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Looks like that's it then
Mila (milakel): aga girl :)
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): /me waveth and poofeth
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, everyone :)
Mila (milakel): oh well, poof it is then
Mila (milakel): bye folks
Zen (zen.arado): ok bye all then