06.16.2011 - Important Topics II

[01:57 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Chi :)
[01:57 PM]  Arisia Vita: welcome Chi
[01:57 PM]  Chi Aho: ty; hello
[01:58 PM]  Chi Aho: hi, atari
[01:59 PM]  Arisia Vita: what's up Chi?
[01:59 PM]  Arisia Vita: welcome Pila!
[02:00 PM]  Chi Aho: Arisia, why do you appear on the mini map as a white dot?
[02:00 PM]  Arisia Vita: uh, I don't know?
[02:00 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Pila :)
[02:00 PM]  Pila Mulligan: greetings
[02:00 PM]  Chi Aho: hello, Pila
[02:00 PM]  Chi Aho: Arisia, how are things at PPIC
[02:00 PM]  Arisia Vita: great, you should come more often
[02:01 PM]  Chi Aho: I can't recall being there as Chi Aho
[02:01 PM]  Arisia Vita: hmmm, I think you were once, but my poor memory... :)
[02:02 PM]  Chi Aho: (and I do not use 2 avi's at the same time)
[02:02 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Bruce :)
[02:02 PM]  Pila Mulligan: hi Bruce
[02:02 PM]  Arisia Vita: welcome Bruce
[02:02 PM]  Chi Aho: Bruce, how are you?
[02:03 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Pila, Chi, Arisia.
[02:03 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: Feeling a bit better eachday, thanks.
[02:03 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Glad to hear it, Bruce :)
[02:03 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: Oh Hi, Atari.
[02:03 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: sry -- didn't see you over there.
[02:04 PM]  Chi Aho: Maybe the topic today should be "Creating meaning in your life"
[02:04 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: No worries :)
[02:05 PM]  Arisia Vita: welcome Wol!
[02:05 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Wol.
[02:05 PM]  Wol Euler: evening all
[02:05 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: We're continuing along the same somewhat freeform thread today, so we can just bounce ideas
[02:05 PM]  Pila Mulligan: hi Wol
[02:05 PM]  Chi Aho: hi, Wol
[02:05 PM]  Arisia Vita: welcome Agatha!
[02:05 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Wol and Ags :)
[02:05 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: Hi, aggers.
[02:05 PM]  Pila Mulligan: 'lo Ags
[02:05 PM]  Chi Aho: hello, agatha
[02:05 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: Evenin' all
[02:05 PM]  Pila Mulligan: synchronized sitting
[02:06 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: Yay
[02:06 PM]  Wol Euler: :)
[02:06 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Okay, I think we've got enough here now...Gaya's taking a break, so I guess I'll get the ball rolling :)
[02:08 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: We're continuing along the thread we started last week, which was...
[02:08 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: 'What do you think is an important idea or subject?'
[02:08 PM]  Pila Mulligan: a very abbreviated summary of thoughts fomrlast week: love, character, balance, dualism, spiritual/emotional intelligance, goal orientation, practice and understanding of concepts, jealousy and monogomy, karma
[02:08 PM]  Pila Mulligan: and thenChi suggested just now, menaing in life
[02:08 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Yes...does anyone need the notecard of topics from last week?
[02:09 PM]  Pila Mulligan: meaning*
[02:09 PM]  Wol Euler: yes please, Vi
[02:09 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: I remember thx Atari
[02:09 PM]  Wol Euler: ty
[02:10 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: I'll add to them, as we go along, to keep it up to date
[02:10 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Chi, do you want to elaborate on yours?
[02:10 PM]  Chi Aho: Question was, how do we create meaning in our lives
[02:10 PM]  Chi Aho: So that would be different for each person
[02:11 PM]  Chi Aho: probably
[02:11 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Yes :)
[02:11 PM]  Chi Aho: For me it is important to have a sense of wholeness and to live a life of integrity
[02:11 PM]  Arisia Vita: welcome Lulu
[02:11 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Lulu :)
[02:11 PM]  Chi Aho: that is really true, and meaning stems from that
[02:11 PM]  Wol Euler: hello lulu
[02:11 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Lulu
[02:12 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: hello Wol, Hi Bruce
[02:12 PM]  Chi Aho: but for each person it is different, i suppose
[02:12 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Mm :)
[02:13 PM]  Chi Aho: maybe someone else has ideas
[02:13 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: ideas about what specifically?
[02:14 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: More and more i can learning (about myself) that empathy is vitally important ---
[02:14 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Maybe we can go in different direction this week...what makes an idea or topic valuable for us?
[02:14 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: and I don't mean just between persons. . . I mean empathy with situations, with circumstances. . .
[02:14 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: empathy is my trade in rl
[02:14 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: :)
[02:14 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: my ability to "rest" iin a situation. . . that might otherwise be "reactive"- - -
[02:15 PM]  Pila Mulligan: another factor is the situation at a given moment -- when we are having difficulties the needs may be different from when we are in an easier situation
[02:15 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Zen :)
[02:15 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: hello zen
[02:15 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: Zen :)
[02:15 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: yes - - - Pila.
[02:15 PM]  Pila Mulligan: yo Zen
[02:15 PM]  Chi Aho: Zen, how are you?
[02:15 PM]  Wol Euler: hi zen
[02:15 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: what makes one thing "difficult" for us but another "easy"?
[02:16 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Zen.
[02:16 PM]  Zen Arado: Hi all :)
[02:16 PM]  Pila Mulligan: turbulence is a factor, Bruce
[02:16 PM]  Pila Mulligan: as opposed to peacefulness
[02:16 PM]  Zen Arado: good ty
[02:16 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: what makes one situation easy to rest in - but another difficult?
[02:16 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Darren.
[02:16 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: hello
[02:16 PM]  Chi Aho: Bruce, we all have different talents, abilities, skills and are at different levels of emotional and spiritual development
[02:16 PM]  Pila Mulligan: hi Darren
[02:16 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Darren :)
[02:16 PM]  Zen Arado: Hi Darren
[02:16 PM]  Darren Islar: hi everyone :)
[02:16 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: Hello Darren
[02:17 PM]  Wol Euler: hello darren
[02:17 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: hi darren
[02:18 PM]  Darren Islar: is it quiet or is it me ?
[02:18 PM]  Pila Mulligan: both
[02:18 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: we're contemplating life
[02:18 PM]  Pila Mulligan: :)
[02:18 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: with empathy
[02:18 PM]  Wol Euler smiles.
[02:18 PM]  Darren Islar: k, thanks
[02:18 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Darren, we're discussing: 'What do you think is an important idea or subject?'
[02:18 PM]  Bruce Mowbray listens for others to respond.
[02:19 PM]  Zen Arado: we have some suggestions from last week
[02:19 PM]  Darren Islar nods
[02:19 PM]  Zen Arado: Gaya aved them on a notecard
[02:19 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Yes...I think we can probably pick a direction to go in, if no one else wants to add anything
[02:20 PM]  Wol Euler: ty zen
[02:20 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: I added Chi's and Bruce's ideas, just now :)
[02:20 PM]  Pila Mulligan: let's add reincarnation to the list -- it was a significant factor in the evolution of contemplatinve thought, even if it is less prominent now
[02:20 PM]  Chi Aho: I thought each person was going to say why a particular question was important in their life.
[02:20 PM]  Pila Mulligan: ust for flavor, at a later date :)
[02:20 PM]  Pila Mulligan: just*
[02:20 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: :)
[02:21 PM]  Zen Arado: well what is the question?
[02:21 PM]  Pila Mulligan: what is important?
[02:21 PM]  Pila Mulligan: or singificant
[02:21 PM]  Zen Arado: about reincarnation?
[02:21 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: We're still on the meta-question :)
[02:21 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: Chi, I can tell you, without much prior knowledge of the ultimate purpose of this meeting, that empathy is important to me, because without it I cannot help others
[02:21 PM]  Pila Mulligan: or, an anlge someone hinted, how do we decide what is significant
[02:21 PM]  Zen Arado: yes Chi think Gaya wanted us to come up with more topics
[02:22 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Yes, or flesh out some of the ideas we brought up last week
[02:22 PM]  Chi Aho: I did zen - My topic was How do we create meaning in our life?
[02:22 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: I was thinking of 'empathy' and 'resting' as a way of Being - with oneself, or with anything -- a way of Mindfulness in our being. . .
[02:23 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: chi, for me, meaning comes from what I can do for others
[02:23 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: but not in a slavish way
[02:23 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Connection, Lulu?
[02:23 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: connection? absolutely
[02:24 PM]  Darren Islar: What about the function of personality?
[02:24 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: Darren, what about it?
[02:24 PM]  Darren Islar: as a topic
[02:24 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: oh
[02:24 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: hmm
[02:24 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: oooo. That's a good one, Darren!
[02:24 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: my personality is one that permits empathy
[02:24 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: :)
[02:25 PM]  Pila Mulligan: maybe 'the function and nature of personality'?
[02:25 PM]  Pila Mulligan: what and how
[02:25 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: if I could not examine myself intuitively and construct a systems-oriented understanding of another human, using a more or less logically rational way
[02:25 PM]  Darren Islar: hmmmmm, to me the function is more interesting, but I go along, those are surely related
[02:25 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: then I would be unable to apply my innate ability for empathy
[02:25 PM]  Pila Mulligan: :)
[02:25 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: to my job as a psychologist
[02:25 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: the FUNCTION of a personality -- perhaps especially one that is versitile and capable of altering itself to meet a variety of situations and people, cultures, different ways of being.
[02:25 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: The anatomy and physiology of psychology? :)
[02:25 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: I like that one ata :)
[02:26 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: I like how you framed that, Bruce
[02:26 PM]  Darren Islar nods at Bruce, which means it's flexible
[02:26 PM]  Zen Arado: that's a bit broad Violet?
[02:26 PM]  Pila Mulligan: nice thought Atari
[02:27 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: I'm not suggesting that seriously...just playing with "function and nature of personality" :)
[02:27 PM]  Zen Arado: especially as I know little about psychology :)
[02:27 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: felixible, we can hope, with being a chameleon.
[02:27 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: but a chameleon's function is to hide
[02:27 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: withOUT* being a chameleon.
[02:27 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: ohh
[02:27 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: sry.
[02:27 PM]  Darren Islar: the social content is important for our personality
[02:27 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: np
[02:27 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: some people hide inside their personalities, too.
[02:27 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: do you mean social context darren?
[02:27 PM]  Darren Islar: you can call that hiding
[02:28 PM]  Darren Islar: yes Lulu :)
[02:28 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: bruce, an interesting observation--what is the function of a personality constructed to hide one's true self?
[02:28 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: is that even possible?
[02:28 PM]  Zen Arado: What IS personality?
[02:29 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Good one, Zen :)
[02:29 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: Zen, that is a construct that remains impossible to define with human means
[02:29 PM]  Darren Islar: hmmmm, that's a hard question Zen, that's why I would like to look at it's function
[02:29 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: we can define much of it
[02:29 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: but never all of it
[02:29 PM]  Pila Mulligan: to me that's up there with 'what is free will'
[02:29 PM]  Zen Arado: yeh ok
[02:29 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: I like to use a metaphor of a blackboard, which is rectangular
[02:29 PM]  Zen Arado: but it's funny talking about something when we don't know what it is
[02:29 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: and each conception or construction of personality is a circle we impress upon this board
[02:30 PM]  Zen Arado: ned a working definition
[02:30 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: and even if we cover that board with every conception or construction humanly possible
[02:30 PM]  Darren Islar: Actually, I think we do all the time Zen :)
[02:30 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: there will remain those nodes which circles cannot cover on a rectangular plane
[02:30 PM]  Zen Arado: I do anyway :)
[02:30 PM]  Darren Islar: me too :)
[02:30 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: therein lies the mystery
[02:30 PM]  Pila Mulligan: interesting image Lulu
[02:31 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: ty Pila
[02:31 PM]  Chi Aho: Working definition: A person's habitual response pattern, including his/her attitudes
[02:31 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: meh
[02:31 PM]  Zen Arado: sounds good Chi
[02:31 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: sorry, don't mean to denigrate you Chi
[02:31 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Do we need to define something to understand it?
[02:31 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: so, personality is habit?
[02:31 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: Ata, I think it is important to have an operational, or working definition
[02:31 PM]  Darren Islar: or do we need to understand all of it?
[02:31 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: to be sure we're conversing about the "same" thing
[02:31 PM]  Chi Aho: howso Lulu?
[02:31 PM]  Zen Arado: no Violet but need a starting point maybe?
[02:32 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: but we don't need to understand it all
[02:32 PM]  Wol Euler: is personality something that we have, or is it something that other people intuit about us?
[02:32 PM]  Wol Euler: I think itÄs the latter
[02:32 PM]  Zen Arado: or both
[02:32 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: and I'm not sure that I agree with "a person's habitual response pattern" suffices for an operational definition
[02:32 PM]  Wol Euler: we have habits, beliefs, preferences; others look at those and construct what they think we are from them
[02:32 PM]  Pila Mulligan: how owuld you fdiffer lulu?
[02:32 PM]  Wol Euler: and call that construct our personality
[02:32 PM]  Pila Mulligan: differ*
[02:32 PM]  Zen Arado: can you improve ti LUlu?
[02:32 PM]  Darren Islar: I think personalty is formed by the person negotiating with it's environment
[02:32 PM]  Darren Islar: something in between people
[02:33 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Mm, Darren
[02:33 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: I think personality is a function of innate predispositions to interact with environments in a particular way, and when those environments act upon us
[02:33 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: then we react accordngly
[02:33 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: *accordingly
[02:33 PM]  Chi Aho: how about learning, Lulu?
[02:33 PM]  Zen Arado: the sum of character traits we react with?
[02:34 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: given the predisposition, the context of the acting environment will impact and interact differently
[02:34 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: learning, Chi, is a part of our environement
[02:34 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: *environment
[02:34 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Or habits, as Bruce said :)
[02:34 PM]  Zen Arado: predispositions is good
[02:34 PM]  Darren Islar: hmmmm, is character different then personality?
[02:34 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Fireball :)
[02:34 PM]  Zen Arado: predispositions and habits
[02:34 PM]  Chi Aho: character is the moral dimension of personality
[02:34 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: interacting with the environment
[02:34 PM]  Pila Mulligan rememebrs Chi's topic from last week: "a serious discussion of character; we seem to neglect that and have substituted "personality" instead. Maybe character as the moral dimension of personality
"
[02:34 PM]  Pila Mulligan: :)
[02:34 PM]  Zen Arado: character is what others see?
[02:35 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: which then interacts in turn with us
[02:35 PM]  Darren Islar: ponders moral dimension....
[02:35 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: and a cycle commences
[02:35 PM]  Zen Arado: and how we break that cycle
[02:35 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: why would one want to break that cycle?
[02:35 PM]  Zen Arado: or see it
[02:36 PM]  Zen Arado: if it causes us to suffer because we are locked into negative patterns?
[02:36 PM]  Darren Islar: hmmmm, somehow character seems to be more 'solid' then personality, that is to me...
[02:36 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: Zen, only in that case would I agree
[02:36 PM]  Zen Arado: or are too rigid
[02:36 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: but what if our cycle has locked us into positive patterns?
[02:36 PM]  Zen Arado: yeh agree Darren
[02:36 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: It might be easy to see bad habits if we're in the habit of seeing habits
[02:37 PM]  Pila Mulligan: :)
[02:37 PM]  Zen Arado: aren't habitual ways bad per se?
[02:37 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: Darren, "character" might be one of those circles on the blackboard as I was stating earlier
[02:37 PM]  Wol Euler: there are good habits too...
[02:37 PM]  Pila Mulligan: compulsive repetitions may be unhelpful
[02:37 PM]  Wol Euler: worthwhile, helpful ones
[02:37 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: I agree, Wol
[02:37 PM]  Darren Islar nods at Wol
[02:37 PM]  Zen Arado: yeh was thikig that Pila
[02:37 PM]  Darren Islar: habits is how my teacher describes karma
[02:37 PM]  Chi Aho: The human personality has a number of dimensions
[02:37 PM]  Zen Arado: hmm that too Wol
[02:37 PM]  Pila Mulligan: :) Darren
[02:38 PM]  Chi Aho: intellectual, emotional, social, moral, spiritual
[02:38 PM]  Zen Arado: but clinging to ways of going makes us less flexible
[02:38 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Yes
[02:38 PM]  Zen Arado: OTOH we don't want to keep thnking about everything we do all the time....
[02:38 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: That's why I like to use the blackboard metaphor, Chi
[02:39 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: Can an individual who continually behaves through habitual reactive patterns (emotional and behavioral) be said to be making "choices"? -- and aren's choice what is required for moral character?
[02:39 PM]  Darren Islar: can you explain that again Lulu?
[02:39 PM]  Chi Aho: Bruce, we can learn.
[02:39 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: aren't choices*
[02:39 PM]  Darren Islar: maybe we don't have a choice in making choices :)
[02:39 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: imagine that "personality" is defined by some super (ie, outside) human manner as a rectangular blackboard
[02:40 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: :)
[02:40 PM]  Wol Euler: perhaps each habit starts with a choice (wihc is then never re-examined)
[02:40 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: then, imagine that we humans impress sponge-like these circles of what we understand to be dimensions of personality upon the board
[02:40 PM]  Zen Arado: can't help thinking personality kinda freezes us into a pattern
[02:40 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: some dimensions will overlap, others will not
[02:40 PM]  Zen Arado: others expect us to behave in cetain ways too
[02:40 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: the blackboard ultimately is covered with circles, but there are still those negative spaces
[02:41 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: that cannot be described nor explained
[02:41 PM]  Chi Aho: and all can change as a result of learning - all dimensions can change
[02:41 PM]  Darren Islar: that would mean Wol a habit is always working unconsciously, I don't think that is necessarily true
[02:41 PM]  Zen Arado: yeh Wol we lose awareness
[02:41 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: no, all cannot change as a result of learning Chi
[02:41 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: Some can, but not all
[02:41 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: agrees with Zen about freezing into patterns, but awareness can liberates us from them.
[02:41 PM]  Zen Arado: become unconsciuos like everyone else
[02:41 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: liberate*
[02:41 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: all human behavior, thought, feeling, process, consciousness, etc is a function of both our genetic predispositions and their interaction with environement
[02:41 PM]  Chi Aho: well, my sexual orientation is nsot going to change
[02:41 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: *environment
[02:42 PM]  Wol Euler: I didn't mean to suggest that it was always and necessarily unconscuous, Darren, just that it might have represented a choice in the past
[02:42 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: I agree with that too...but aren't the patterns always changing, too?
[02:42 PM]  Zen Arado: when we get older....not fast enough maybe
[02:42 PM]  Darren Islar: thanks Lulu (starting to walk behind :))
[02:42 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Mm
[02:42 PM]  Darren Islar: right Wol
[02:42 PM]  Zen Arado: set in our ways
[02:43 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: The deeper the pattern, the harder it is to change it maybe?
[02:43 PM]  Zen Arado: yeh
[02:43 PM]  Darren Islar: genetic predisposition..... ponders about it
[02:43 PM]  Zen Arado: big problem those deep habits
[02:43 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: can we "rest" right inside the pattern -- and watch it dissipate, thereby liberating us from it's "power"?
[02:43 PM]  Darren Islar: deep as in the pattern excist for a long time and has been reproduced often.... ?
[02:43 PM]  Zen Arado: are we slaves to our genes then?
[02:44 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: those deep habits are indeed problematic for some
[02:44 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: Zen, absolutely not
[02:44 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Yes, Darren
[02:44 PM]  Zen Arado: or slaves to our upbringing?
[02:44 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: we are slaves to neither our genes nor our environment
[02:44 PM]  Darren Islar nods at Bruce
[02:44 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: there is no black and white dichtomy
[02:44 PM]  Zen Arado: so how do we escape their influence?
[02:44 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: We don't--we must blend them
[02:44 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: if we a mindful - aware - then we are slaves to nothing -- especially to our own habits.
[02:45 PM]  Wol Euler: by being aware of them, first, and hten by changing ourselves
[02:45 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: are mindful*
[02:45 PM]  Zen Arado: yes Bruce
[02:45 PM]  Lulu Lacrima agrees with Wol and Bruce
[02:45 PM]  Zen Arado: takes time though....htrough awareness?
[02:45 PM]  Darren Islar: changing ourselves is a nice topic too
[02:45 PM]  Zen Arado: or allowing the change
[02:45 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: awareness is very important for the kind of change I think you mean, Zen
[02:45 PM]  Wol Euler: yes, of course :) and with many falling-back and slipping-up episodes too
[02:45 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: Where awareness is, the reactive patterns are not.
[02:45 PM]  Darren Islar: hmmmm yes, good point Zen, allowing.....
[02:45 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Yes...awareness can let us choose a positive action over a negative reaction
[02:46 PM]  Wol Euler nods.
[02:46 PM]  Zen Arado: How do you lose your reactive patterns or deal with them?
[02:46 PM]  Zen Arado: is that a questin?
[02:46 PM]  Wol Euler: an analogy: habit is to everyday life as the monkey mind is to meditation :)
[02:46 PM]  Darren Islar: that's well put Violet :)
[02:46 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: :)
[02:46 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: I mean a different quality of awareness, I think, Atari.
[02:47 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: "the monkey mind?"
[02:47 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: I think we mean the same thing, Bruce :)
[02:47 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: we're apes.....
[02:47 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: erm
[02:47 PM]  Darren Islar: hmmmmm, not for me Wol
[02:47 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: both a lacking mindfulness.
[02:47 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: not feeling the analogy
[02:47 PM]  Wol Euler: the little voice that perks up while you are meditating, distracting you :)
[02:47 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: good analogy, Wol!
[02:47 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: are*
[02:47 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: ok, understood Wol
[02:48 PM]  Zen Arado: habits just don't want you to examine them
[02:48 PM]  Zen Arado: want to stay hidden
[02:48 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: I might not call it a monkey mind, but I get what you mean
[02:48 PM]  Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_monkey
[02:48 PM]  Zen Arado: slightly different I think
[02:48 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: I don't like the term
[02:48 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: but I appreciate the concept
[02:48 PM]  Darren Islar: a habit doens't mean it lacks mindfulness, if it does, I think it's very connected to the monekymind, I agree on that
[02:48 PM]  Wol Euler: the analogy is in the way we deal with them: not decrying and hitting with sticks, but acknowledging and then going on with a better action
[02:48 PM]  Chi Aho: it just means a lack of focus
[02:48 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: The monkey mind finds it impossible to rest . . .
[02:48 PM]  Zen Arado: yeh
[02:49 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: "monkey mind" to me denies the possiblity that other apes and primates are capable of cogntiive processes like meta-awareness and meditation
[02:49 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: the person who is a 'slave' to habits also finds it impossible to rest.
[02:49 PM]  Zen Arado: wants to take us away from our deep peacefulness
[02:49 PM]  Zen Arado: our natural state
[02:49 PM]  Darren Islar: maybe Lulu, but it's more in the way we perceive their behaviour :)
[02:50 PM]  Wol Euler: oh dear, please don't take metaphors that literally :)
[02:50 PM]  Zen Arado: so we have a few more questions
[02:50 PM]  Darren Islar nods at Wol
[02:50 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: If I am hear you right, Zen, I think you are saying that restful awareness is our "natural" way of being.
[02:50 PM]  Zen Arado: waht do we do next week?
[02:50 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: Darren, I argue it's not our perception but an empirical truth that other primates are capable of many of the same cognitive processes that we humans are
[02:50 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: that's all I mean
[02:51 PM]  Zen Arado gave you June 09 WoK Ideas.
[02:51 PM]  Darren Islar: I know Lulu
[02:51 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: :)
[02:51 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: I liked your suggestion last week, Zen
[02:51 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: ealosy and it's connection with monogamy
[02:51 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Jealousy, too :)
[02:51 PM]  Zen Arado: kk
[02:51 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: "Monkey mind" is a figure of speech -- it is not actually talking about apes or monkeys.
[02:51 PM]  Pila Mulligan: Lulu, this phrase may have come from a contemplative person once saying 'the mind is like a chattering monkey'
[02:51 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Alana :)
[02:52 PM]  Lulu Lacrima sighs
[02:52 PM]  Zen Arado: I have an article can be looked at
[02:52 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: I understand
[02:52 PM]  Pila Mulligan: :)
[02:52 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Yes, I saved that, I think
[02:53 PM]  Zen Arado: http://www.tricycle.com/my-view/what...lousy?page=0,1
[02:53 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: I'm trying to reorient the way people conceive of primates; one reason I believe certain fundamentalist groups deny evolution is b/c they want to deny the fact that monkeys have minds like ours
[02:53 PM]  Zen Arado: if we want to go with that
[02:53 PM]  Chi Aho: Now after all of this, have we agreed on what personality is?
[02:53 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Phew, I did :)
[02:53 PM]  Wol Euler laughs.
[02:53 PM]  Lulu Lacrima laughs
[02:53 PM]  Darren Islar: hehehe
[02:53 PM]  Pila Mulligan: or free will :)
[02:53 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: indeed, Pila
[02:54 PM]  alana003 Resident: oche
[02:54 PM]  Darren Islar: we will never will, that's why it's fun to talk about it :)
[02:54 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: I choose not to discuss free will :)
[02:54 PM]  Pila Mulligan: ok :)
[02:54 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: speaking of free will, I will exert mine to go forage for supper
[02:54 PM]  Pila Mulligan: bye Lulu
[02:54 PM]  Wol Euler smiles.
[02:54 PM]  Chi Aho: be well, Lulu
[02:54 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: ( I'm only kidding :) )
[02:54 PM]  Darren Islar: hmmmm, is that free will or the habit of eating :)
[02:54 PM]  Wol Euler: take care, lulu
[02:54 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Take care, Lulu
[02:54 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: bye, Lulu -- thanks for being here today.
[02:54 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: lol, Ata
[02:54 PM]  Lulu Lacrima: bye to all, see you later
[02:54 PM]  Darren Islar: bye Lulu
[02:55 PM]  alana003 Resident: lulu
[02:55 PM]  Zen Arado: bye Lulu
[02:55 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: So, jealousy for next week?
[02:55 PM]  Zen Arado: sure
[02:55 PM]  alana003 Resident: vcs tao visiveis
[02:55 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: Thank you, Chi, for substituting for Gaya.
[02:55 PM]  Darren Islar: yes, sounds great
[02:55 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: :)
[02:55 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: Jealousy might be an interesting topic to explore....
[02:56 PM]  Agatha Macbeth nods
[02:56 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: cool.
[02:56 PM]  alana003 Resident: oi
[02:56 PM]  Pila Mulligan: oi
[02:56 PM]  Darren Islar nods, and something we run into daily :)
[02:56 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: Mm
[02:56 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: I also am off to forage for supper.
[02:56 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: May all be safe and happy.
[02:56 PM]  Wol Euler: happy hunting
[02:56 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: Forage well Bruce
[02:56 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Take care and good luck, Bruce :)
[02:56 PM]  Pila Mulligan: bye Bruce, hope your health is mending
[02:56 PM]  Zen Arado: I'd like to explore the connection with monogamy too
[02:57 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Yes
[02:57 PM]  Zen Arado: but might take another week
[02:57 PM]  Darren Islar: there is no such thing as monogamy :), he says three minutes before time is up
[02:57 PM]  Zen Arado: :)
[02:57 PM]  Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
[02:58 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: :P
[02:58 PM]  Chi Aho: hello alana
[02:58 PM]  Zen Arado: the guy talks about it in that article I posted
[02:58 PM]  Darren Islar: on the site?
[02:58 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: The article is a good starting point, I think
[02:59 PM]  Zen Arado: surprised me seeing that in a buddhist magazine
[02:59 PM]  Wol Euler: a pleasant surprise :)
[02:59 PM]  Wol Euler: agreeable, I mean
[02:59 PM]  Pila Mulligan: bye Ags
[02:59 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Take care, Ags :)
[02:59 PM]  Darren Islar: bye Aggers, for the record I'm afraid
[02:59 PM]  Zen Arado: bye Aggers
[02:59 PM]  Wol Euler: that was quick.
[03:00 PM]  Chi Aho: I must go also; it is late
[03:00 PM]  Wol Euler: bye chi, take care
[03:00 PM]  Pila Mulligan: bye Chi
[03:00 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Take care, Chi :)
[03:00 PM]  Wol Euler: wb aggers
[03:00 PM]  Darren Islar: she crashed apparently :)
[03:00 PM]  Pila Mulligan: wb Ags
[03:00 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: and wb Ags :)
[03:00 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: Bloody Phoenix
[03:00 PM]  Pila Mulligan: :)
[03:01 PM]  Wol Euler smiles.
[03:01 PM]  Darren Islar: by Chi....sighs, can't get it right
[03:01 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Living up to its name :)
[03:01 PM]  Darren Islar: hehe
[03:01 PM]  Pila Mulligan: cycling thru the ashes
[03:01 PM]  Wol Euler: on a bicycle built for two
[03:01 PM]  Zen Arado: :)
[03:01 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: :)
[03:01 PM]  Darren Islar: :)
[03:02 PM]  Pila Mulligan: I've noticed how Phoenix crashes without an immediate clue, then a few minutes later a message says you've been disconnected
[03:02 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: It does strange things to me sometimes
[03:03 PM]  Zen Arado: V 2 does that too
[03:03 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: Still beats the hell outta V2 tho
[03:03 PM]  Zen Arado: or you uust disappear
[03:03 PM]  Wol Euler hasn't had a crash in a very long time (touch wood)
[03:03 PM]  Agatha Macbeth touches your head
[03:03 PM]  Wol Euler: :-PPPP
[03:03 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: ;-)
[03:03 PM]  Zen Arado: he he a V" versus Phoenix discussion
[03:03 PM]  Zen Arado: V2
[03:03 PM]  Darren Islar: if I crash I can't get in for some time
[03:03 PM]  Zen Arado: both are flawed
[03:03 PM]  Pila Mulligan: now thats a significant topic :)
[03:03 PM]  Agatha Macbeth nods and sighs
[03:03 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus likes Imprudence :)
[03:03 PM]  Darren Islar: ahaha
[03:04 PM]  Zen Arado: :)
[03:04 PM]  Wol Euler: rather like life itself, zen :)
[03:04 PM]  Zen Arado: yep
[03:04 PM]  Zen Arado: better to stick with the devil you know maybe
[03:04 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: :)
[03:04 PM]  Darren Islar: I need the radar for rp :)
[03:05 PM]  Pila Mulligan: rp?
[03:05 PM]  Darren Islar: sorry, roleplay
[03:05 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: The radar on Imprudence is way too big for me
[03:05 PM]  Pila Mulligan: ah, thnaks
[03:05 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: Takes up half the screen
[03:06 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Yes, I close it a lot to make room
[03:06 PM]  Agatha Macbeth nods
[03:06 PM]  Zen Arado: I like the big type in V2
[03:06 PM]  Darren Islar: I just need a bigger screen :)
[03:06 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: I like all the different sky sttings tho
[03:06 PM]  Zen Arado: easier on my old eyes
[03:06 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: hehe
[03:06 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: So do I :)
[03:06 PM]  Agatha Macbeth nods
[03:07 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: A friend of mine uses it all the time: says it's really good
[03:07 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: but I'll stick with phoenix
[03:07 PM]  Zen Arado: anyone tried Firestorm?
[03:07 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: Yes
[03:07 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: I use it for stability...I don't think it's ever crashed on me
[03:07 PM]  Darren Islar: no, not yet
[03:07 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: has the same shortcomings as V2
[03:07 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: ie you can't find anything
[03:08 PM]  Zen Arado: but that's unfamiliarity?
[03:08 PM]  Wol Euler: no, it's lousy design :)
[03:08 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: Even when I've used it a while still seems clunky
[03:08 PM]  Wol Euler: sorry
[03:08 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: I don't like the way the buttons work, in V2...it feels more like clicking links...
[03:08 PM]  Darren Islar: well, there is somethin with teh screen, I miss buttons
[03:08 PM]  Zen Arado: :)
[03:08 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: No, you're right Wol
[03:09 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: Poor layout, poor design
[03:09 PM]  Zen Arado: I like the way V2 handles IMs
[03:09 PM]  Darren Islar: it's nice for beginners, not for regular users
[03:09 PM]  Agatha Macbeth nods @ darren
[03:09 PM]  Zen Arado: they get hidden in Phoenix
[03:09 PM]  Zen Arado: and notices are kept
[03:09 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: Oh, not for me
[03:10 PM]  Darren Islar: that's a possible setting in V2 you dont' have in Phoenix
[03:10 PM]  Zen Arado: in phoenix you have to delete them as you read them
[03:10 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: A lot is down to configuration i think
[03:10 PM]  Zen Arado: and I like the favourite LMs across the top
[03:11 PM]  Darren Islar: me nods at Zen
[03:11 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: Yes, that is about its only good feature for me
[03:11 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hi FcSeeker :)
[03:11 PM]  Zen Arado: Hi Fc seeker
[03:11 PM]  Darren Islar: but all teh windows are making me crazy, with soooo much features.... in V2
[03:11 PM]  Arisia Vita: welcome Fc
[03:12 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: Right
[03:12 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Mm...I get lost easily in V2
[03:12 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: Maybe LL will get it right in V3, but i won't hold my breath
[03:13 PM]  Zen Arado: can't see then going back to V1 layout
[03:13 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: But they badly need to improve on V2 design
[03:14 PM]  Zen Arado: the search doesn't work well in V2
[03:14 PM]  FcSeeker Resident: hello all
[03:14 PM]  Wol Euler: hello fc
[03:15 PM]  Pila Mulligan slips away -- peace and love, freinds
[03:15 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Be well, Pila :)
[03:15 PM]  Zen Arado: bye Pila
[03:15 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: Bye Pil
[03:15 PM]  Darren Islar: bye Pila
[03:15 PM]  Wol Euler: bye pila
[03:15 PM]  Darren Islar: for the record again, sighs...... :)
[03:15 PM]  Wol Euler smiles.
[03:15 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: :)
[03:16 PM]  Zen Arado slips away with his clunky old V2
[03:16 PM]  Wol Euler: my dears (and bears), I too must go
[03:16 PM]  Wol Euler: goodnight all,take care
[03:16 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: Yep me too
[03:16 PM]  Wol Euler: thank you for the discussion
[03:16 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Take care, Zen and be well, Wol, Ags :)
[03:16 PM]  Zen Arado: bye all
[03:16 PM]  Agatha Macbeth: Night all
[03:16 PM]  Darren Islar: bye Zen, and everyone leaving
[03:16 PM]  Darren Islar: bye Aggers
[03:16 PM]  Darren Islar: and Wol
[03:16 PM]  Darren Islar: take care
[03:17 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: I think it's time for me to go foraging, too :)
[03:17 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Be well, everyone :)
[03:17 PM]  Darren Islar: bye Violet
[03:17 PM]  Darren Islar: and everyone, till next week
[03:17 PM]  Arisia Vita: bye Darren
[03:17 PM]  FcSeeker Resident: I'm that scarey ?
[03:17 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: Take care, Darren :)
[03:17 PM]  Arisia Vita: no!
[03:18 PM]  FcSeeker Resident: o.k.
[03:18 PM]  Darren Islar: hahah Fc
[03:18 PM]  Ataraxia Azemus: hehe, Fc