03.17.2011 - Forgiveness

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hello, Nick.
Nick Cassavetes: hi Bruce, everyone
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hello, Mitsu.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hello, Violet.
JS Saltwater: hi folks
Mitsu Ishii: hk (hp)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi everyone :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello everyone :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Gaya.
Nick Cassavetes: hi Violet, Gaya
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Gaya, Nick :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hello, Eliza.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Eliza :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Beautiful dress, Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce, Violet, JS, Nick Gaya, Mitsu (Hi Bruce, Violet, JS, Nick Styles, Mitsu)
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks :) one of the first dresses I found in SL... fun to wear it again
JS Saltwater: Hi Eliza
Mitsu Ishii: Eliza's always so stylish
Eliza Madrigal: I try... even though I can only find one of my shoes for this...
Eliza Madrigal: hah
Mitsu Ishii: I've been at SXSW for a week so I'm in a bit of an alternate universe haze
Eliza Madrigal: still buzzing?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hello, Enzooo.
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Enzooo :)
Enzooo Sellers: hi all
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Enzooo
Eliza Madrigal: great hat, Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Zen :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ty!
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Zen.
Gaya Ethaniel: http://waysofknowing.kira.org/
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Enzooo
Zen (zen.arado): Hi all ;)
Eliza Madrigal: /me rezzing slowly.... Hi Zen :)
JS Saltwater: ty Gaya
Eliza Madrigal: I may have to pop out early, if so I'll excuse myself quietly...
Gaya Ethaniel: yw :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Today is Zen's Day -- Top o' the evenin' to ye, Zen!
Eliza Madrigal: hope to be forgiven ;-)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Thou art forgiven, Eliza.
Zen (zen.arado): wearing green too :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Oh, I'll be right back
Zen (zen.arado): grey green anyway
JS Saltwater: /me deliberately did not wear green in the hopes of getting pinched a few times.
Zen (zen.arado): I'm the only genuine Irishman here
Gaya Ethaniel: :P
Zen (zen.arado): authentic
Zen (zen.arado): hmmm...Eliza with red hair
JS Saltwater: hi Fiz
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fizakaal :)
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fiz
Fizakaal Wei: hey Gaya and JS
Gaya Ethaniel: I like green and red too :)
Fizakaal Wei: and Eliza :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hello, Fizakaal.
Mitsu Ishii: what's the topic today?
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Fiz
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Forgiveness.
Gaya Ethaniel: So we are continuing from last week, forgiveness [& conscience].
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): for forgiving.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and conscience.
Eliza Madrigal: /me grins
Gaya Ethaniel: I considered that possibility Zen mentioned his report today. Nothing is unforgivable.
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks for the report Zen!
Zen (zen.arado): 'me hunts for report to see what he said
Zen (zen.arado): drat
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Perhaps another way to say "Nothing is unforgivable" is to say "Everything is workable."
Gaya Ethaniel: heheh
Gaya Ethaniel: Nice one Bruce :)
Eliza Madrigal: or even 'what else is true'
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): or, there is something to be "worked" in every situation or condition.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, I love, "What else is true."
JS Saltwater: is that an assertion or a conclusion?
Zen (zen.arado): yeh it's when we stop working that the trouble comes
JS Saltwater: sorry did not get thru the report quite yet
Zen (zen.arado): no communication
Zen (zen.arado): in a huff
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
Gaya Ethaniel: Think it was a suggestion JS for people to consider.
JS Saltwater: nods
Gaya Ethaniel: Apparently wise people are free from assertions :)
JS Saltwater: lol
JS Saltwater: <-- not wise
Gaya Ethaniel: wb Atari :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hello, Violet.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): ty :)
Eliza Madrigal: WB Violet, lovely outfit too :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Thank you :)
Gaya Ethaniel: What huff Zen?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me wonders if Violet can be forgiven for wearing such a beautiful dress.
Eliza Madrigal: the situations that are the hardest don't seem to have a 'someone' to forgive... no place to pin blame in the first place?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): /me smiles
Zen (zen.arado): studies Violets outfit
Zen (zen.arado): yes nice
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :) Thank you
JS Saltwater: good observation Eliza
Gaya Ethaniel: Well I wonder if we can always find a person to pin down blames?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): How do we let go of our disappointment, suffering and heartbreak when there's no one to blame?
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Gilles :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Gilles
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gilles
Zen (zen.arado): thought we always find someone to blame?
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Gilles
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me blames the emperor of Antartica for the tsunami.
JS Saltwater: isnt a need to forgive predicated on there being someone to blame/forgive, and thus there is no one to blame for e.g Tsunami
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hello. Gilles.
Gilles Kuhn: Hoooooowls!!
Zen (zen.arado): isn't forgiveness a way of not blaming?
Zen (zen.arado): immediate forgiveness
JS Saltwater: nods at Zen
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Alfred :)
Zen (zen.arado): for an action
boxy (alfred.kelberry): cute bunny :)
Eliza Madrigal: maybe something simple to begin to work with
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Boxy
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Is there a need for blame? Does it help us understand why painful events occur?
Gilles Kuhn: or a way of controling an example is the catholic church claim to be alone to have the right to forgive sins in the name of pater filius et spiritus sanctus....
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Alfred
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Alf
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me forgives everyone who came late to this sesion.
boxy (alfred.kelberry): hi :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me forgives himself for misspelling session.
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): hehe
boxy (alfred.kelberry): thank you, bruce :)
Eliza Madrigal: thinking about the word itself... it is to give beforehand? determine not to blame?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Proposition: The only person we ever forgive is ourselves.
JS Saltwater: blame being a part of our fascination with cause-effect
Zen (zen.arado): do we need authority to forgive?
boxy (alfred.kelberry): st. patrick :)
Zen (zen.arado): don' think so
Fizakaal Wei: you need empathy to forgive
JS Saltwater: nods
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, even causes aren't simple ...
Zen (zen.arado): ability to let go
Fizakaal Wei: yep
Eliza Madrigal: interesting point, JS... nods
Zen (zen.arado): let go of grudges
JS Saltwater: still chewing on the empathy remark Fiz
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Zen (zen.arado): a chain of grudges
boxy (alfred.kelberry): hi, mitsu :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I agree Fiz, I think I mentioned something similar along that line in my report - let me check.
Zen (zen.arado): nursing them
Gaya Ethaniel: wb
Gaya Ethaniel: Feeling angry, hateful or even revengeful does much harm to ourselves. This isn't a powerful enough deterrent sometimes but it could be a good place to start. If looked at more closely, people who hurt others are in a lot troubles themselves whether they are conscious of this or not. Rather than one person forgiving another, when anger and hatred dissolve forgiveness happens. In such moments, we are brought together.
Eliza Madrigal: /me hasn't been able to load the page since she's been here...
JS Saltwater: so forgiveness need not be altruistic, Eliza
Zen (zen.arado): yeh it causes us to suffer more than unforgiven person maybe
Nick Cassavetes: "when anger and hatred dissolve forgiveness happens" ... I don't agree
Gilles Kuhn: i see alfred you fall victim to pali exclusion principle there is no perdon in that....
boxy (alfred.kelberry): well said, gaya :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me listens for more from Nick.
Gilles Kuhn: pauli and damn keyboard
Nick Cassavetes: you can also just give up on someone and find peace in that
Eliza Madrigal: just the way things are
Gaya Ethaniel: ty
JS Saltwater: oh sorry my remark was to Gaya
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Is holding onto blame a way of avoiding dealing with some things?
boxy (alfred.kelberry): gilles, i'm still here :)
Zen (zen.arado): eyh and it boosts ego I thiink
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): absolutely, Violet.
Gaya Ethaniel: Well moving on is a different case Nick at least for me.
Fizakaal Wei: ego is very involved think Zen
Nick Cassavetes: how so Gaya?
Gaya Ethaniel: I think when I consider forgiveness is people/situations that one has to deal with ...
Gilles Kuhn: btw gaya do you think people that hurt others and win money or advantage by that are worse off do you really believe in some immanent justice?
Gaya Ethaniel: Like Bruce said, situations that we need to work with.
Nick Cassavetes: yes, I'm taling about a someone here
Gaya Ethaniel: Some cases for sure, one has to move on and get on with one's life.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: think forgiveness comes a few steps down the road... like to even get there, one has to lose sight long enough to build a grudge... so then seems always place to start is deeper...
Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... I'm not so concerned about such situations Gilles.
Nick Cassavetes: you can't deprive other who need you for one bad apple I say
Eliza Madrigal: so hm... now agreeing with Bruce I guess....
Gilles Kuhn: well most people are
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Pope Bruce extends plenary forgiveness to all in attendance here today.
Eliza Madrigal: re 'one's self' off the hook
Gaya Ethaniel: I guess forgiveness can be a part of process of coming to terms with situations or emotions left over.
Nick Cassavetes: ok, but that is not forgiving Gaya
Gilles Kuhn: we speak of forgiveness right but even the christ said i forgive you go and SIN NO MORE....
Fizakaal Wei: no, but its a start, Nick
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Nick, my feeling is that forgiveness isn't something one tries to do ...
Zen (zen.arado): 'how many times do we forgive?' Christ said
Eliza Madrigal: well he also said something to the affect of 'what that guys does is not your problem, follow me' heh...
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): seventy times seven.
Zen (zen.arado): or the disciples asked him rather
Gilles Kuhn: to forgive you need to have in face of you someone that accept he was wrong if not its not forgiveness but capitulation
Zen (zen.arado): yeh something klike that Bruce
Nick Cassavetes: yes, the Jonah story
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Agatha :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Agatha :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hello, aggers!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Agatha :)
JS Saltwater: I disagree Giles
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Evening Wokkers :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me sighs deeply -- another beautiful dress.
Eliza Madrigal: Bruce forgives you for being late
Nick Cassavetes: no forgiveness for one who doesn't repent
Zen (zen.arado): I think we do the forgiving regardless of others viewpoint Gilles
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bless you my dear.
JS Saltwater: in fact I think forgiveness requires not caring if they accept guilt or "win"
Fizakaal Wei: accepts that he was wrong- or validates the other persons feelings?
Eliza Madrigal: that's because its 'their deal' re repentence... perhaps about capacity
Zen (zen.arado): we have to work with ourselves on this I think
Gilles Kuhn: to forgive to things that are still happening is like to accept them and thus if you forgive to someone that is not asking for forgiveness and stopping to do the wrong he ask forgiveness for you become in fact his accomplice
JS Saltwater: even then Fiz
Eliza Madrigal: /me nods Zen
Nick Cassavetes: absolutely agreeing with you Gilles
JS Saltwater: you can forgive guilt without condoning acts
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Are there things we can't forgive, generally?
Nick Cassavetes: is you allow this ... our children will ne next
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me agrees totally with JS -- Not caring whether you gain or lose.
Eliza Madrigal: interesting... seeing so many types of forgiveness...
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick :)
Fizakaal Wei: i think for forgiveness to work, it can be one sided- the unforgived party does not need to be involved
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Mick :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick :)
Zen (zen.arado): it's about what they do to you personall though
Gilles Kuhn: so if you forgive without that condition you become an accopmlice like the ewish council were accomplice in the shoah in warsaw and others ghettos
Zen (zen.arado): not a general wrong I think
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Micky!
Gilles Kuhn: jewish*
JS Saltwater: I can forgive you even while locking you up so you dont do it again
JS Saltwater: :)
Zen (zen.arado): you don't forgive a murderer obviously
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm a bit lost ... what was exactly invovled in forgiving in that example Gilles?
JS Saltwater: I guess we need to distinguish guilt from punishment
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): "The unforgiven party does not need to be involved." -- wonderful!
Gilles Kuhn: yes you can if he ask forgiveness and say he repent and will not do it again zen
Zen (zen.arado): we're talking more about personal affronts really
Mickorod Renard: hi, sorry connection probs
Zen (zen.arado): yes JS
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Of COURSE you forgive a murderer!
Zen (zen.arado): or forgive but still punish
[2011/03/17 14:32]  Gilles Kuhn: to forgive without the forgiven part accepting forgiveness and thus guilt is not forgiveness is complicity and acceptance of the fact
Zen (zen.arado): forgive does not mean exoneration
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me ponders whether to forgive Zen for saying "You don't forgive a murderer, obviously."
JS Saltwater: I disagree Giles but it's probably jkust semantic
Gilles Kuhn: if you would forgive me a thing i claim to be good i will spat on your face
Nick Cassavetes: you are stating it strongly Gilles, some sort of complicity maybe
Mitsu Ishii: I think forgiveness has two aspects, the first is an external policy aspect (trying to stabilize society) the other is an internal spiritual one.
Zen (zen.arado): I mean let him go unpunished Bruce
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Is forgiveness seen as absolving someone of guilt? Because I imagine it more as acceptance that the event happened, and moving forward
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me repeats his original proposition: "The only person you ever forgive is yourself."
Mitsu Ishii: if we do not forgive internally, then we are likely to cause the same harm to others, while we're protecting ourselves or exacting asymmetrical vengeance.
Gilles Kuhn: forgiveness cannot be only internal as it onvolve another person at least or its only self forgiveness for cowardice for example
Fizakaal Wei: no no Ataraxia
Mitsu Ishii: the most common child abusers are the ones who were abused themselves
[2011/03/17 14:34]  Mitsu Ishii: they exact vengeance, in a strange way, on their children rather than their parents
Gilles Kuhn: not a exemption of responsability moral or juridic mishi
Mitsu Ishii: the karma should stop with you
Nick Cassavetes: I strongly suggest reading the Jonah story on this, have a good comment on it, but it's in Dutch
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): karma = inertia (repeating the "sins" perpetrated. . . )
Gilles Kuhn: geen probleem voor ik maar i denk niet voor de anderen deelnemer hier nick ;-)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): momentum.
Nick Cassavetes: he didn.t want to go to Nineveh to accuse them, because he didn't want them to get a chance to be forgiven
Nick Cassavetes: but God forced him
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me thinks the Jonah story is a whale of a good one.
Nick Cassavetes: ... the whale and stuff
Gilles Kuhn: karma is a religious belief that has no place in general moral discussion that need to aim to universality
Nick Cassavetes: yes
Gaya Ethaniel: Conscience? :P
Mitsu Ishii: no, it's not a religious notion, Gilles.
Gilles Kuhn: ah no?
Nick Cassavetes: it is
JS Saltwater: lol Gilles, Jonah too :)
Mitsu Ishii: karma simply refers to the notion of cause and effect
Gaya Ethaniel: Well Gilles, everyone can speak free using whatever words they are comfortable here as long as they are not offensive.
Gilles Kuhn: yes jonah too but jonah its only a parable karma pretend to be ontological description
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): If we "do the work" on ourselves, we can stop the chain of abuse. . .
Mitsu Ishii: of course there are various religious theories about how this happens, but I'm referring to the very basic notion of cause/effect.
Mitsu Ishii: for example my grandmother was abusive to her children
Mitsu Ishii: causing much strife between my aunts and uncles
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Catita3231 :) Welcome to Ways of Knowing. I will IM you.
Mitsu Ishii: but they were good enough to stop the karma (cause/effect) at their generation and not exact it on their children (my cousins and sibling)
boxy (alfred.kelberry): often times a supposed offender has no idea he upset someone
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hi, Cat.
Gilles Kuhn: cause and effect are a physical notion mishi it dont affect but as very general metaphor the moral world, karma use cause and effect in acceptance of the paradigm of reincarnation which is a big religious assumption
JS Saltwater: very good point Alfred
Mitsu Ishii: no no, Gilles, you're missing the point.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, Mitsu -- that's how we can "work" it.
Nick Cassavetes: state it clear maybe Mitsu, I'm missing it too ;)
Mitsu Ishii: I should point out that this group does often discuss Buddhist ideas. however, I don't think any of us are interested in dogma, Buddhist or otherwise.
Mitsu Ishii: we're talking about general principles, not religious ideas.
Zen (zen.arado): you don't have to associate karma with reincarnation I think
JS Saltwater: karma yes dogma no
Gilles Kuhn: i actually dont think so if indeed all action have consequences amoral action have not necessarily wrong consequence to the wrong doers
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me understands Mitsu entirely - havining lived through the same.
Eliza Madrigal: nods, compassion is present in understanding blindness by conditioning...
Mitsu Ishii: yes, I'm simply using the word karma in the very basic sense.
Mitsu Ishii: Someone angers me in the morning, I snap at someone in the afternoon;
Mitsu Ishii: etc.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
boxy (alfred.kelberry): let's play karma!
Nick Cassavetes: lol
boxy (alfred.kelberry): gilles-- :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-) again.
Catita3231: hello everone
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I thought of compassion and all other qualities we discussed before while doing the report.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Catita :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Catita
Nick Cassavetes: that's misguided anger Mitsu, not Karma
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hi again, Cat,.
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Cat :)
Mickorod Renard: hi cat
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Hello
boxy (alfred.kelberry): bruce++
JS Saltwater: seems no harm in borrowing terms and concepts from any kind of belief system - religious, moral, philos, etc if they are of service to the discussion
Catita3231: what are you doing here??
Fizakaal Wei: Karma is what is visited on you as a result of your behavior
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Good question :p
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): My perception that someone has "sinned" is what needs to be healed - forgiven.
Nick Cassavetes: yes Fiz
Eliza Madrigal: misguided anger in that case would be reactionary... so based on not seeing...
Gaya Ethaniel: I gave you our wiki link Catita, please have a look and ask questions to me in IM so others can continue discussing.
Gilles Kuhn: even that basic sense is morally unsound, again to do "wrong" cannot necessarily have wrong repercussion on you : their is no immanent justice and thaose notion of not immanent justice need a eschatology which is by definition religious like reincarnation or more basically heaven and hel
Enzooo Sellers: "The most difficult person to forgive is yourself."
Catita3231: all of us are new here??
JS Saltwater: (and I would correct the common assumption that karma is all bad stuff)
Fizakaal Wei: thats right JS
Mitsu Ishii: no, again you're projecting, Gilles. that has nothing to do with what I am saying.
Nick Cassavetes: indeed truth in that Enzooo
Zen (zen.arado): you seem to be broadening the discussion unnecessarily Gilles
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me totally agrees with Enzooo -- but also, myself is the only person necessary to forgive.
Zen (zen.arado): we are mostly talking about the effect on an individual
boxy (alfred.kelberry): you're losing karma points in this battle gentlemen :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me ponders "Fore give" --
Eliza Madrigal: give beforehand...
Nick Cassavetes: Gilles was right in his remark I think
Gilles Kuhn: i would like to know how my argument are wrong mishi
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, give up the judgments FOR a higher view.
Gaya Ethaniel: Whether someone is right or wrong in their opinion isn't relevant here Gilles ... we are just sharing.
Mickorod Renard: i find it easier to forgive someone who is paying for their acts than for someone who gets away with it
Enzooo Sellers: me, myself and I - that counts for 3
Mitsu Ishii: well, to be clear, you're talking about a sort of folk idea
Gilles Kuhn: to say i am projecting sound to me as you have not the correct views or not the one compatible with mine so youre wrong
Nick Cassavetes: sharing needs commen ground
Nick Cassavetes: if we disagree on commen ground
Mitsu Ishii: this isn't what we're usually discussing here. we're not talking about folk superstitions and so forth.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Really, Mick -- you need vengeance, then?
Gilles Kuhn: oh no i just examplify in a simple way
Nick Cassavetes: it needs to be thematised
Mitsu Ishii: what I mean by projecting is you're misunderstanding my use of language by overlaying a folk interpretation of Buddhist ideas.
Gilles Kuhn: you cannot base morality or ethic in cause/effect relation in the world
Mitsu Ishii: that's an interesting discussion however.
Mitsu Ishii: there are many different ways of trying to get at the idea of ethics
Fizakaal Wei: and we have hit them all........
Mitsu Ishii: one of them has to do with punishment and so forth, i.e., repercussions for "bad" actions.
Gilles Kuhn: indeed and as you used this naive oriental idea of karma i needed to correct that assumption
JS Saltwater: sigh
Mitsu Ishii: I didn't use the idea, Gilles, I used the word.
Zen (zen.arado): we seem to be getting into a discussion of Kant
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I feel that the only work we ever "do" is on ourselves -- On whom else could we possibly "work"? --
Mitsu Ishii: your idea isn't the meaning I had in mind.
Gilles Kuhn: kant was indeed more interesting about that
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): therefore the forgiveness is of our own judgments.
Gilles Kuhn: then clarify it mitsu
Fizakaal Wei: Bruce we have a responibilty to chage ourselves
[2011/03/17 14:46]  Mitsu Ishii: the idea you are projecting is folk buddhism; its not what I am talking about.\
Nick Cassavetes: ㋡
Nick Cassavetes: /me thanks Gilles for being ever vigilant while me is multitasking
Enzooo Sellers: Bruce - forgiveness is quite demonstrative
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, Fiz -- for sure!
Catita3231: good bye everyone
Mitsu Ishii: but it does raise an interesting question, which is the motive for ethics.
Zen (zen.arado): bye Cat
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Catita
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye, Cat!
Mitsu Ishii: bye Catita
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Well so ... one forgives or try to be 'good' for rewards or something? It makes no sense.
Mitsu Ishii: in some religions including folk buddhism and Christianity there's a notion of some punishment later for current actions
Mickorod Renard: i agree bruce, i find it a waste of time trying to find resolve in a forgivness issue waiting for the offender to acnowledge real feelings of wrong doing
Gilles Kuhn: right so we will not be enlihtened as to know why non folk buddhism and the non folk kharma notion as to do with universalist reasoning on the problem of morality?
Eliza Madrigal: we don't cease to take care of what needs caring for (sometimes by putting someone in jail), while at a deeper level, forgive... otherwise 'it is like drinking poison expecting your enemy to die' and you perpetuate the patterns...
Mitsu Ishii: however that can't be a real basus for ethics, I agree, Gilles.
JS Saltwater: nice analogy Eliza
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Rumi: "Beyond right-thinking and wrong-thinking, there is a field. I will meet you there."
Gilles Kuhn: look i have perfectly in lmind buddhist karma is more evolved that the folk idea of christianism
Eliza Madrigal: petty patterns proliferating = karma imo
Zen (zen.arado): yes good point Eliza
Mitsu Ishii: A more sophisticated idea of ethics I think has to have an existential basis. but it also acknowledges the reality of systems.
Gaya Ethaniel: Nice Bruce :)
Eliza Madrigal: Not sure who said that... should find and give credit...
Eliza Madrigal: :) Bruce
Mitsu Ishii: what I am saying, Gilles, is that my use of the word "karma" created a sidetrack, which is my fault.
Zen (zen.arado): why do we have to talk about religions here?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Oh, I love Rumi :)
Gilles Kuhn: BUT no religion can pretend to ground moral as it is a concern for all human being
Mitsu Ishii: you misunderstood it but I'm trying to explain I am not referring to the naive folk notion.
Eliza Madrigal: really don't want to leave them out either Zen
Zen (zen.arado): I am more intersted on the effect of unforgiveness on me
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): My best friend in the world is a serial rapist who will spend the rest of his life in jail -- and I agree that is where he needs to be. . . Yet he is also one of the most enlightened individuals I have ever met -- having done the WORK on himself while in jail.,
Gaya Ethaniel: Like dumping the cartload of sin you described Zen maybe :)
Zen (zen.arado): I have to work on my unforgiveness first
Gilles Kuhn: do you think mishi i am so ignorant as to not know more advanced concept of karma in different buddhism? because my criotic apply to them too
Nick Cassavetes: then he must have gone trough hell Bruce
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): exactly, Zen.
Nick Cassavetes: when he realised what he did
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): He was raped by priests and nuns from the age of seven. . .
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Need I say more?
Zen (zen.arado): not establish grand rules for a society
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): BUT He also forgives them all....
Mitsu Ishii: for me forgiveness is a stance which allows us to absorb and transform negative actions that have been done on us and in a compassionate yet not Pollyanna way transform them into the world.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Who among us should cast the first stone?
JS Saltwater: nicely put Mitsu
Fizakaal Wei: yes, compassion, Mitsu
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Zen (zen.arado): yes Bruce
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Wow. That's truly difficult, Bruce.
Gilles Kuhn: forgiveness in that way mishi as often in oriental thinking sound horrifically egoist to me
Enzooo Sellers: Mitsu - is that called alchemy ?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me loves the concept of "alchemy."
Nick Cassavetes: I agree with Gilles again
Mitsu Ishii: Gilles, it's clear to me you're not referring to what I am talking about; it's best if we drop the subject. It has nothing to do with religion. I'm not interested in religion or religious ideas at all, really.
Fizakaal Wei: explain, Gliles
Gaya Ethaniel: /me passes a T-shirt to Nick, "I agree with Gilles." :P
Eliza Madrigal: hm... looked for quote and found a page of forgiveness tips (hah) one great one is 'stop telling the story'...
Mitsu Ishii: your criticism doesn't have anything to do with what I was trying to say.
Zen (zen.arado): yes Eliza
Mickorod Renard: i like that statement of your idea mitsu
Nick Cassavetes: it's even metaphisical what you are sayin Mitsu
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me forgives Gaya for not giving him a t-shirt.
Zen (zen.arado): rumination and beating ouesellves up
Nick Cassavetes: very strong claims wich bear on everything else
Mitsu Ishii: I really don
Zen (zen.arado): hair shirt
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Eliza Madrigal: hahah Zen
Mitsu Ishii: I really don't believe in metaphysical grounding for ethics.
Gilles Kuhn: yes my criticism is grounded on a totally different paradigm than you mishi i know
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ha ha !
Nick Cassavetes: you are doing just that!
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me loves his hairshirts.
Mitsu Ishii: any metaphysical grounding must be absolutely minimal in my view.
Gilles Kuhn: i agree with nik
Mickorod Renard: if someone came to me and asked forgiveness i may have some faith in humanity
Mitsu Ishii: i.e., with as few assumptions as possible.
Zen (zen.arado): sackcloth and ashes
Mitsu Ishii: the problem gilles is that we are in agreement but you don't think we are. :)
Zen (zen.arado): oh how guilty I am '
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Ahhh . . . then I shall come to you, Mick, and ask for firgiveness.
Eliza Madrigal: thanks everyone
Nick Cassavetes: lol!!!!
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): forgiveness*
Gilles Kuhn: its tricky to know your own assumption mishi you know that
Mickorod Renard: but generally speaking we want to give forgivness to sort out our own issues
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Eliza :)
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Bye Liz
Zen (zen.arado): bye Eliza
Mickorod Renard: by eliza
Zen (zen.arado): yeh Mick
Zen (zen.arado): start where we are
Zen (zen.arado): with our own faults
Mitsu Ishii: yes, but you don't even know what my assumptions are!
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Where else could we possibly start than where we are?
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Where we were?
Zen (zen.arado): with everyone else?
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): can't start there -- sorrry.
Mitsu Ishii: someday we should discuss this in a separate forum, so as not to bore everyone else :)
Zen (zen.arado): what we often do
Zen (zen.arado): you agree though Bruce?
Gilles Kuhn: so you accept you have assumption mishi ok let hear thelm
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yeppers.
Zen (zen.arado): easy to blame others
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): No blame - no shame -- Just do the work on yourself.
Zen (zen.arado): yeh
Mitsu Ishii: I assume there is some sort of world, and that it has some sort of constraints on what is possible.
Fizakaal Wei: blaming others distracts from the work *we* need to do
Mitsu Ishii: i.e., reflected in, say, laws of physics, though those laws cannot be fully verified naturally.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): YES, Fiz!
Mickorod Renard: should we blame ourselves for bringing on evil because of our kindness?
Mitsu Ishii: I believe time and space are induced by mind --- here I somewhat agree with Kant
Gilles Kuhn: ok mitsu so you are not a solipsist but almost nobody is
Zen (zen.arado): if we had good intentions ..no I think
Mitsu Ishii: I don't agree with Kant that one ought to reason in terms of a priori
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Our notions that we are "bringing kindness" might be the veryu source of evil (or what you are calling "evil").
Gilles Kuhn: you have perhaps not nderstood the notion of a priori or only in a folk way.....
Mickorod Renard: I was refering to our kindness looking like a passport to being abused
Mitsu Ishii: Perhaps you are correct. However, it seems a bit inelegant.
Mitsu Ishii: to me
Mitsu Ishii: I'd rather start with more minimal assumptions.
Nick Cassavetes: lol Mitsu!
Mitsu Ishii: that is I think you can get more minimal than Kant's a priori ideas.
Gilles Kuhn: it would be if there was not the notion of analytic, synthesis, a posteriori and critic too
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): "I will abuse you for your own good" -- and for the Larger Good ---- Mmmmm....?
Nick Cassavetes: you're problem is exactly you are supposing about the nature of the universe, without wanting to admit it, or seeing it yourself
Gaya Ethaniel: So we have a couple of minutes left ...
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Mmmmm, Bruce
Mickorod Renard: ok,,what I am meaning is,,by being kind in nature is sometimes seen by others as a weakness,,and as such taken advantage of
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
Enzooo Sellers: Bruce you just defined capitalism
Gaya Ethaniel: Do you want to continue next week or change topics?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Ha!
Mitsu Ishii: I basically think most ideas are simply metastable states of interaction of mind-world which cannot be totally separated.
Zen (zen.arado): how about 'acceptance'?
Gaya Ethaniel: I think Mick being kind includes ourselves too ... needs to be balanced.
Mitsu Ishii: that is to say, there's some sort of mind-world interaction which allows for some somewhat stable feedback loops that allow certain ideas to survive and others to be discarded.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): "acceptance" is a wonderful topic.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): (I think.)
Gaya Ethaniel: Acceptance, yes a good one.
Zen (zen.arado): is it resignation, rejection?
Gaya Ethaniel: Dao suggested Freedom previously.
Mickorod Renard: well, I am disapointed with this session, even though I am failing as I was late
Zen (zen.arado): passivity?
Gilles Kuhn: mmmh mishi that refer to a semi idealist idea of yours that i know a bit of and that i found fascinating as theory
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Freedom?
Mickorod Renard: I think I will head home,,thanks all
Mitsu Ishii: of course all those notions themselves are merely provisional. Even logic is to me, merely provisional, a model.
Zen (zen.arado): bye Mick
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Be well, Mick :)
Mitsu Ishii: that sort of outlines my basic views.
Gaya Ethaniel: When you desire and fear, and identify yourself with your feelings, you create sorrow and bondage. When you create, with love and wisdom, and remain unattached to your creations, the result is harmony and peace. But whatever be the condition of your mind, in what way does it reflect on you? It is only your self-identification with your mind that makes you happy or unhappy. Rebel against your slavery to your mind, see your bonds as self- created and break the chains of attachment and revulsion. Keep in mind your goal of freedom, until it dawns on you that you are already free, that freedom is not something in the distant future to be earned with painful efforts, but perennially one's own, to be used! Liberation is not an acquisition but a matter of courage, the courage to believe that you are free already and to act on it.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me would love to hear more from Mick. . .
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): So long mick
Mitsu Ishii: bye mick
Zen (zen.arado): nice Gaya
JS Saltwater: Gaya you just made that up, right? (jk)
Nick Cassavetes: suspects the desire to be without desire as allways ;)
Mitsu Ishii: I am trying to bridge the gap between idealism and materialism to some degree, without living totally in either since I'm not a solipsist
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Mm...I like that topic :)
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): I will go too. I need to type up the PaB session...
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Take care all
Gaya Ethaniel: Think it's a quote of Nisargadatta.
JS Saltwater: bye Ag
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Agatha :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): "You are already free."
Mitsu Ishii: but for me, Buddhism is just a set of interesting observations. the "religious" aspects of it as far as they're dogma don't really interest me.
JS Saltwater: k thx Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night those leaving :)
Mitsu Ishii: I apologize if I gave the wrong impression with my use of the word "karma"
Nick Cassavetes: I'll brb
Zen (zen.arado): nite all
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye everyone leaving.
boxy (alfred.kelberry): so, gilles, do you forgive or not?
Gilles Kuhn: i know mishi but that is very good in epistemology but i am afraid it will not work as yet in ethics or moral as we need there to make actual decision now....
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me listens for the wolf's reply.
Gaya Ethaniel: I think acceptance is related to this so perhaps we continue with acceptance ... I will send a group email out.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): thank you, Gaya.
Mitsu Ishii: Agamben has some interesting ideas about ethics which I think provide a hint of where you can go
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I should be going, too. Take care, everyone :)
Mitsu Ishii: anyway that's a big topic, I do have ideas about it but we can discuss ourselves someday.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye, Violet.
Mitsu Ishii: sorry everyone for getting into a debate with gilles :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): lovely dress, dear.
Mitsu Ishii: I have to go too
Gaya Ethaniel: np :)
Mitsu Ishii: see you later
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks Mitsu :)
JS Saltwater: you are forgiven Mit
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye, Mitsu -- and thank you for your contributions today.
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks everyone :)
Gilles Kuhn: as i said forgiveness is an act that is only possible when you are two to do it one to accept it and ask for it recognising is wrong doing and wanting to correct it and the other that extend it and forgive but not forget what wrong was done and by forgive i mean fully
boxy (alfred.kelberry): i'm off folks
Gaya Ethaniel: heh ... totally different from what I consider forgiveness is.
boxy (alfred.kelberry): cu
Mitsu Ishii: okay
Mitsu Ishii: good night all
JS Saltwater: isnt that leaning toward a concept of redemption?
boxy (alfred.kelberry): meep!
JS Saltwater: gotta run too, but enjoyed being around smart peeps ty all
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye, JS.
Gilles Kuhn: perhaps js: redemption is always a intersubjective thing for religious in front of god for atheist in front of others men
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Ooops.. gotta run -- THANKS, everyone!
JS Saltwater: yes Gilles fine shades of meaning between forgiveness and redemption imo
JS Saltwater: see you next time