03.17.2011 - Forgiveness

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    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hello, Nick.
    Nick Cassavetes: hi Bruce, everyone
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hello, Mitsu.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hello, Violet.
    JS Saltwater: hi folks
    Mitsu Ishii: hk (hp)
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi everyone :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello everyone :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Gaya.
    Nick Cassavetes: hi Violet, Gaya
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Gaya, Nick :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hello, Eliza.
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Eliza :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Beautiful dress, Eliza!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce, Violet, JS, Nick Gaya, Mitsu (Hi Bruce, Violet, JS, Nick Styles, Mitsu)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks :) one of the first dresses I found in SL... fun to wear it again
    JS Saltwater: Hi Eliza
    Mitsu Ishii: Eliza's always so stylish
    Eliza Madrigal: I try... even though I can only find one of my shoes for this...
    Eliza Madrigal: hah
    Mitsu Ishii: I've been at SXSW for a week so I'm in a bit of an alternate universe haze
    Eliza Madrigal: still buzzing?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hello, Enzooo.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Enzooo :)
    Enzooo Sellers: hi all
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Enzooo
    Eliza Madrigal: great hat, Bruce
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Zen :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ty!
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Zen.
    Gaya Ethaniel: http://waysofknowing.kira.org/
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Enzooo
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi all ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: /me rezzing slowly.... Hi Zen :)
    JS Saltwater: ty Gaya
    Eliza Madrigal: I may have to pop out early, if so I'll excuse myself quietly...
    Gaya Ethaniel: yw :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Today is Zen's Day -- Top o' the evenin' to ye, Zen!
    Eliza Madrigal: hope to be forgiven ;-)
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Thou art forgiven, Eliza.
    Zen (zen.arado): wearing green too :)
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Oh, I'll be right back
    Zen (zen.arado): grey green anyway
    JS Saltwater: /me deliberately did not wear green in the hopes of getting pinched a few times.
    Zen (zen.arado): I'm the only genuine Irishman here
    Gaya Ethaniel: :P
    Zen (zen.arado): authentic
    Zen (zen.arado): hmmm...Eliza with red hair
    JS Saltwater: hi Fiz
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fizakaal :)
    Zen (zen.arado): :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fiz
    Fizakaal Wei: hey Gaya and JS
    Gaya Ethaniel: I like green and red too :)
    Fizakaal Wei: and Eliza :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hello, Fizakaal.
    Mitsu Ishii: what's the topic today?
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Fiz
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Forgiveness.
    Gaya Ethaniel: So we are continuing from last week, forgiveness [& conscience].
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): for forgiving.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and conscience.
    Eliza Madrigal: /me grins
    Gaya Ethaniel: I considered that possibility Zen mentioned his report today. Nothing is unforgivable.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks for the report Zen!
    Zen (zen.arado): 'me hunts for report to see what he said
    Zen (zen.arado): drat
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Perhaps another way to say "Nothing is unforgivable" is to say "Everything is workable."
    Gaya Ethaniel: heheh
    Gaya Ethaniel: Nice one Bruce :)
    Eliza Madrigal: or even 'what else is true'
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): or, there is something to be "worked" in every situation or condition.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, I love, "What else is true."
    JS Saltwater: is that an assertion or a conclusion?
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh it's when we stop working that the trouble comes
    JS Saltwater: sorry did not get thru the report quite yet
    Zen (zen.arado): no communication
    Zen (zen.arado): in a huff
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Think it was a suggestion JS for people to consider.
    JS Saltwater: nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: Apparently wise people are free from assertions :)
    JS Saltwater: lol
    JS Saltwater: <-- not wise
    Gaya Ethaniel: wb Atari :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hello, Violet.
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): ty :)
    Eliza Madrigal: WB Violet, lovely outfit too :)
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Thank you :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: What huff Zen?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me wonders if Violet can be forgiven for wearing such a beautiful dress.
    Eliza Madrigal: the situations that are the hardest don't seem to have a 'someone' to forgive... no place to pin blame in the first place?
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): /me smiles
    Zen (zen.arado): studies Violets outfit
    Zen (zen.arado): yes nice
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :) Thank you
    JS Saltwater: good observation Eliza
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well I wonder if we can always find a person to pin down blames?
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): How do we let go of our disappointment, suffering and heartbreak when there's no one to blame?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Gilles :)
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Gilles
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gilles
    Zen (zen.arado): thought we always find someone to blame?
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Gilles
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me blames the emperor of Antartica for the tsunami.
    JS Saltwater: isnt a need to forgive predicated on there being someone to blame/forgive, and thus there is no one to blame for e.g Tsunami
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hello. Gilles.
    Gilles Kuhn: Hoooooowls!!
    Zen (zen.arado): isn't forgiveness a way of not blaming?
    Zen (zen.arado): immediate forgiveness
    JS Saltwater: nods at Zen
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Alfred :)
    Zen (zen.arado): for an action
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): cute bunny :)
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe something simple to begin to work with
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Boxy
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Is there a need for blame? Does it help us understand why painful events occur?
    Gilles Kuhn: or a way of controling an example is the catholic church claim to be alone to have the right to forgive sins in the name of pater filius et spiritus sanctus....
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Alfred
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Alf
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me forgives everyone who came late to this sesion.
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): hi :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me forgives himself for misspelling session.
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): hehe
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): thank you, bruce :)
    Eliza Madrigal: thinking about the word itself... it is to give beforehand? determine not to blame?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Proposition: The only person we ever forgive is ourselves.
    JS Saltwater: blame being a part of our fascination with cause-effect
    Zen (zen.arado): do we need authority to forgive?
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): st. patrick :)
    Zen (zen.arado): don' think so
    Fizakaal Wei: you need empathy to forgive
    JS Saltwater: nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, even causes aren't simple ...
    Zen (zen.arado): ability to let go
    Fizakaal Wei: yep
    Eliza Madrigal: interesting point, JS... nods
    Zen (zen.arado): let go of grudges
    JS Saltwater: still chewing on the empathy remark Fiz
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Zen (zen.arado): a chain of grudges
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): hi, mitsu :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I agree Fiz, I think I mentioned something similar along that line in my report - let me check.
    Zen (zen.arado): nursing them
    Gaya Ethaniel: wb
    Gaya Ethaniel: Feeling angry, hateful or even revengeful does much harm to ourselves. This isn't a powerful enough deterrent sometimes but it could be a good place to start. If looked at more closely, people who hurt others are in a lot troubles themselves whether they are conscious of this or not. Rather than one person forgiving another, when anger and hatred dissolve forgiveness happens. In such moments, we are brought together.
    Eliza Madrigal: /me hasn't been able to load the page since she's been here...
    JS Saltwater: so forgiveness need not be altruistic, Eliza
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh it causes us to suffer more than unforgiven person maybe
    Nick Cassavetes: "when anger and hatred dissolve forgiveness happens" ... I don't agree
    Gilles Kuhn: i see alfred you fall victim to pali exclusion principle there is no perdon in that....
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): well said, gaya :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me listens for more from Nick.
    Gilles Kuhn: pauli and damn keyboard
    Nick Cassavetes: you can also just give up on someone and find peace in that
    Eliza Madrigal: just the way things are
    Gaya Ethaniel: ty
    JS Saltwater: oh sorry my remark was to Gaya
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Is holding onto blame a way of avoiding dealing with some things?
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): gilles, i'm still here :)
    Zen (zen.arado): eyh and it boosts ego I thiink
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): absolutely, Violet.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well moving on is a different case Nick at least for me.
    Fizakaal Wei: ego is very involved think Zen
    Nick Cassavetes: how so Gaya?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think when I consider forgiveness is people/situations that one has to deal with ...
    Gilles Kuhn: btw gaya do you think people that hurt others and win money or advantage by that are worse off do you really believe in some immanent justice?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Like Bruce said, situations that we need to work with.
    Nick Cassavetes: yes, I'm taling about a someone here
    Gaya Ethaniel: Some cases for sure, one has to move on and get on with one's life.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal: think forgiveness comes a few steps down the road... like to even get there, one has to lose sight long enough to build a grudge... so then seems always place to start is deeper...
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... I'm not so concerned about such situations Gilles.
    Nick Cassavetes: you can't deprive other who need you for one bad apple I say
    Eliza Madrigal: so hm... now agreeing with Bruce I guess....
    Gilles Kuhn: well most people are
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Pope Bruce extends plenary forgiveness to all in attendance here today.
    Eliza Madrigal: re 'one's self' off the hook
    Gaya Ethaniel: I guess forgiveness can be a part of process of coming to terms with situations or emotions left over.
    Nick Cassavetes: ok, but that is not forgiving Gaya
    Gilles Kuhn: we speak of forgiveness right but even the christ said i forgive you go and SIN NO MORE....
    Fizakaal Wei: no, but its a start, Nick
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Nick, my feeling is that forgiveness isn't something one tries to do ...
    Zen (zen.arado): 'how many times do we forgive?' Christ said
    Eliza Madrigal: well he also said something to the affect of 'what that guys does is not your problem, follow me' heh...
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): seventy times seven.
    Zen (zen.arado): or the disciples asked him rather
    Gilles Kuhn: to forgive you need to have in face of you someone that accept he was wrong if not its not forgiveness but capitulation
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh something klike that Bruce
    Nick Cassavetes: yes, the Jonah story
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Agatha :)
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Agatha :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hello, aggers!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Agatha :)
    JS Saltwater: I disagree Giles
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Evening Wokkers :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me sighs deeply -- another beautiful dress.
    Eliza Madrigal: Bruce forgives you for being late
    Nick Cassavetes: no forgiveness for one who doesn't repent
    Zen (zen.arado): I think we do the forgiving regardless of others viewpoint Gilles
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bless you my dear.
    JS Saltwater: in fact I think forgiveness requires not caring if they accept guilt or "win"
    Fizakaal Wei: accepts that he was wrong- or validates the other persons feelings?
    Eliza Madrigal: that's because its 'their deal' re repentence... perhaps about capacity
    Zen (zen.arado): we have to work with ourselves on this I think
    Gilles Kuhn: to forgive to things that are still happening is like to accept them and thus if you forgive to someone that is not asking for forgiveness and stopping to do the wrong he ask forgiveness for you become in fact his accomplice
    JS Saltwater: even then Fiz
    Eliza Madrigal: /me nods Zen
    Nick Cassavetes: absolutely agreeing with you Gilles
    JS Saltwater: you can forgive guilt without condoning acts
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Are there things we can't forgive, generally?
    Nick Cassavetes: is you allow this ... our children will ne next
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me agrees totally with JS -- Not caring whether you gain or lose.
    Eliza Madrigal: interesting... seeing so many types of forgiveness...
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick :)
    Fizakaal Wei: i think for forgiveness to work, it can be one sided- the unforgived party does not need to be involved
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Mick :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick :)
    Zen (zen.arado): it's about what they do to you personall though
    Gilles Kuhn: so if you forgive without that condition you become an accopmlice like the ewish council were accomplice in the shoah in warsaw and others ghettos
    Zen (zen.arado): not a general wrong I think
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Micky!
    Gilles Kuhn: jewish*
    JS Saltwater: I can forgive you even while locking you up so you dont do it again
    JS Saltwater: :)
    Zen (zen.arado): you don't forgive a murderer obviously
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm a bit lost ... what was exactly invovled in forgiving in that example Gilles?
    JS Saltwater: I guess we need to distinguish guilt from punishment
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): "The unforgiven party does not need to be involved." -- wonderful!
    Gilles Kuhn: yes you can if he ask forgiveness and say he repent and will not do it again zen
    Zen (zen.arado): we're talking more about personal affronts really
    Mickorod Renard: hi, sorry connection probs
    Zen (zen.arado): yes JS
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Of COURSE you forgive a murderer!
    Zen (zen.arado): or forgive but still punish
    [2011/03/17 14:32]  Gilles Kuhn: to forgive without the forgiven part accepting forgiveness and thus guilt is not forgiveness is complicity and acceptance of the fact
    Zen (zen.arado): forgive does not mean exoneration
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me ponders whether to forgive Zen for saying "You don't forgive a murderer, obviously."
    JS Saltwater: I disagree Giles but it's probably jkust semantic
    Gilles Kuhn: if you would forgive me a thing i claim to be good i will spat on your face
    Nick Cassavetes: you are stating it strongly Gilles, some sort of complicity maybe
    Mitsu Ishii: I think forgiveness has two aspects, the first is an external policy aspect (trying to stabilize society) the other is an internal spiritual one.
    Zen (zen.arado): I mean let him go unpunished Bruce
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Is forgiveness seen as absolving someone of guilt? Because I imagine it more as acceptance that the event happened, and moving forward
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me repeats his original proposition: "The only person you ever forgive is yourself."
    Mitsu Ishii: if we do not forgive internally, then we are likely to cause the same harm to others, while we're protecting ourselves or exacting asymmetrical vengeance.
    Gilles Kuhn: forgiveness cannot be only internal as it onvolve another person at least or its only self forgiveness for cowardice for example
    Fizakaal Wei: no no Ataraxia
    Mitsu Ishii: the most common child abusers are the ones who were abused themselves
    [2011/03/17 14:34]  Mitsu Ishii: they exact vengeance, in a strange way, on their children rather than their parents
    Gilles Kuhn: not a exemption of responsability moral or juridic mishi
    Mitsu Ishii: the karma should stop with you
    Nick Cassavetes: I strongly suggest reading the Jonah story on this, have a good comment on it, but it's in Dutch
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): karma = inertia (repeating the "sins" perpetrated. . . )
    Gilles Kuhn: geen probleem voor ik maar i denk niet voor de anderen deelnemer hier nick ;-)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): momentum.
    Nick Cassavetes: he didn.t want to go to Nineveh to accuse them, because he didn't want them to get a chance to be forgiven
    Nick Cassavetes: but God forced him
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me thinks the Jonah story is a whale of a good one.
    Nick Cassavetes: ... the whale and stuff
    Gilles Kuhn: karma is a religious belief that has no place in general moral discussion that need to aim to universality
    Nick Cassavetes: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: Conscience? :P
    Mitsu Ishii: no, it's not a religious notion, Gilles.
    Gilles Kuhn: ah no?
    Nick Cassavetes: it is
    JS Saltwater: lol Gilles, Jonah too :)
    Mitsu Ishii: karma simply refers to the notion of cause and effect
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well Gilles, everyone can speak free using whatever words they are comfortable here as long as they are not offensive.
    Gilles Kuhn: yes jonah too but jonah its only a parable karma pretend to be ontological description
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): If we "do the work" on ourselves, we can stop the chain of abuse. . .
    Mitsu Ishii: of course there are various religious theories about how this happens, but I'm referring to the very basic notion of cause/effect.
    Mitsu Ishii: for example my grandmother was abusive to her children
    Mitsu Ishii: causing much strife between my aunts and uncles
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Catita3231 :) Welcome to Ways of Knowing. I will IM you.
    Mitsu Ishii: but they were good enough to stop the karma (cause/effect) at their generation and not exact it on their children (my cousins and sibling)
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): often times a supposed offender has no idea he upset someone
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hi, Cat.
    Gilles Kuhn: cause and effect are a physical notion mishi it dont affect but as very general metaphor the moral world, karma use cause and effect in acceptance of the paradigm of reincarnation which is a big religious assumption
    JS Saltwater: very good point Alfred
    Mitsu Ishii: no no, Gilles, you're missing the point.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, Mitsu -- that's how we can "work" it.
    Nick Cassavetes: state it clear maybe Mitsu, I'm missing it too ;)
    Mitsu Ishii: I should point out that this group does often discuss Buddhist ideas. however, I don't think any of us are interested in dogma, Buddhist or otherwise.
    Mitsu Ishii: we're talking about general principles, not religious ideas.
    Zen (zen.arado): you don't have to associate karma with reincarnation I think
    JS Saltwater: karma yes dogma no
    Gilles Kuhn: i actually dont think so if indeed all action have consequences amoral action have not necessarily wrong consequence to the wrong doers
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me understands Mitsu entirely - havining lived through the same.
    Eliza Madrigal: nods, compassion is present in understanding blindness by conditioning...
    Mitsu Ishii: yes, I'm simply using the word karma in the very basic sense.
    Mitsu Ishii: Someone angers me in the morning, I snap at someone in the afternoon;
    Mitsu Ishii: etc.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): let's play karma!
    Nick Cassavetes: lol
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): gilles-- :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-) again.
    Catita3231: hello everone
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I thought of compassion and all other qualities we discussed before while doing the report.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Catita :)
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Catita
    Nick Cassavetes: that's misguided anger Mitsu, not Karma
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hi again, Cat,.
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Cat :)
    Mickorod Renard: hi cat
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Hello
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): bruce++
    JS Saltwater: seems no harm in borrowing terms and concepts from any kind of belief system - religious, moral, philos, etc if they are of service to the discussion
    Catita3231: what are you doing here??
    Fizakaal Wei: Karma is what is visited on you as a result of your behavior
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Good question :p
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): My perception that someone has "sinned" is what needs to be healed - forgiven.
    Nick Cassavetes: yes Fiz
    Eliza Madrigal: misguided anger in that case would be reactionary... so based on not seeing...
    Gaya Ethaniel: I gave you our wiki link Catita, please have a look and ask questions to me in IM so others can continue discussing.
    Gilles Kuhn: even that basic sense is morally unsound, again to do "wrong" cannot necessarily have wrong repercussion on you : their is no immanent justice and thaose notion of not immanent justice need a eschatology which is by definition religious like reincarnation or more basically heaven and hel
    Enzooo Sellers: "The most difficult person to forgive is yourself."
    Catita3231: all of us are new here??
    JS Saltwater: (and I would correct the common assumption that karma is all bad stuff)
    Fizakaal Wei: thats right JS
    Mitsu Ishii: no, again you're projecting, Gilles. that has nothing to do with what I am saying.
    Nick Cassavetes: indeed truth in that Enzooo
    Zen (zen.arado): you seem to be broadening the discussion unnecessarily Gilles
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me totally agrees with Enzooo -- but also, myself is the only person necessary to forgive.
    Zen (zen.arado): we are mostly talking about the effect on an individual
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): you're losing karma points in this battle gentlemen :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me ponders "Fore give" --
    Eliza Madrigal: give beforehand...
    Nick Cassavetes: Gilles was right in his remark I think
    Gilles Kuhn: i would like to know how my argument are wrong mishi
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, give up the judgments FOR a higher view.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Whether someone is right or wrong in their opinion isn't relevant here Gilles ... we are just sharing.
    Mickorod Renard: i find it easier to forgive someone who is paying for their acts than for someone who gets away with it
    Enzooo Sellers: me, myself and I - that counts for 3
    Mitsu Ishii: well, to be clear, you're talking about a sort of folk idea
    Gilles Kuhn: to say i am projecting sound to me as you have not the correct views or not the one compatible with mine so youre wrong
    Nick Cassavetes: sharing needs commen ground
    Nick Cassavetes: if we disagree on commen ground
    Mitsu Ishii: this isn't what we're usually discussing here. we're not talking about folk superstitions and so forth.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Really, Mick -- you need vengeance, then?
    Gilles Kuhn: oh no i just examplify in a simple way
    Nick Cassavetes: it needs to be thematised
    Mitsu Ishii: what I mean by projecting is you're misunderstanding my use of language by overlaying a folk interpretation of Buddhist ideas.
    Gilles Kuhn: you cannot base morality or ethic in cause/effect relation in the world
    Mitsu Ishii: that's an interesting discussion however.
    Mitsu Ishii: there are many different ways of trying to get at the idea of ethics
    Fizakaal Wei: and we have hit them all........
    Mitsu Ishii: one of them has to do with punishment and so forth, i.e., repercussions for "bad" actions.
    Gilles Kuhn: indeed and as you used this naive oriental idea of karma i needed to correct that assumption
    JS Saltwater: sigh
    Mitsu Ishii: I didn't use the idea, Gilles, I used the word.
    Zen (zen.arado): we seem to be getting into a discussion of Kant
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I feel that the only work we ever "do" is on ourselves -- On whom else could we possibly "work"? --
    Mitsu Ishii: your idea isn't the meaning I had in mind.
    Gilles Kuhn: kant was indeed more interesting about that
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): therefore the forgiveness is of our own judgments.
    Gilles Kuhn: then clarify it mitsu
    Fizakaal Wei: Bruce we have a responibilty to chage ourselves
    [2011/03/17 14:46]  Mitsu Ishii: the idea you are projecting is folk buddhism; its not what I am talking about.\
    Nick Cassavetes: ㋡
    Nick Cassavetes: /me thanks Gilles for being ever vigilant while me is multitasking
    Enzooo Sellers: Bruce - forgiveness is quite demonstrative
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, Fiz -- for sure!
    Catita3231: good bye everyone
    Mitsu Ishii: but it does raise an interesting question, which is the motive for ethics.
    Zen (zen.arado): bye Cat
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Catita
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye, Cat!
    Mitsu Ishii: bye Catita
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well so ... one forgives or try to be 'good' for rewards or something? It makes no sense.
    Mitsu Ishii: in some religions including folk buddhism and Christianity there's a notion of some punishment later for current actions
    Mickorod Renard: i agree bruce, i find it a waste of time trying to find resolve in a forgivness issue waiting for the offender to acnowledge real feelings of wrong doing
    Gilles Kuhn: right so we will not be enlihtened as to know why non folk buddhism and the non folk kharma notion as to do with universalist reasoning on the problem of morality?
    Eliza Madrigal: we don't cease to take care of what needs caring for (sometimes by putting someone in jail), while at a deeper level, forgive... otherwise 'it is like drinking poison expecting your enemy to die' and you perpetuate the patterns...
    Mitsu Ishii: however that can't be a real basus for ethics, I agree, Gilles.
    JS Saltwater: nice analogy Eliza
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Rumi: "Beyond right-thinking and wrong-thinking, there is a field. I will meet you there."
    Gilles Kuhn: look i have perfectly in lmind buddhist karma is more evolved that the folk idea of christianism
    Eliza Madrigal: petty patterns proliferating = karma imo
    Zen (zen.arado): yes good point Eliza
    Mitsu Ishii: A more sophisticated idea of ethics I think has to have an existential basis. but it also acknowledges the reality of systems.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Nice Bruce :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Not sure who said that... should find and give credit...
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Bruce
    Mitsu Ishii: what I am saying, Gilles, is that my use of the word "karma" created a sidetrack, which is my fault.
    Zen (zen.arado): why do we have to talk about religions here?
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Oh, I love Rumi :)
    Gilles Kuhn: BUT no religion can pretend to ground moral as it is a concern for all human being
    Mitsu Ishii: you misunderstood it but I'm trying to explain I am not referring to the naive folk notion.
    Eliza Madrigal: really don't want to leave them out either Zen
    Zen (zen.arado): I am more intersted on the effect of unforgiveness on me
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): My best friend in the world is a serial rapist who will spend the rest of his life in jail -- and I agree that is where he needs to be. . . Yet he is also one of the most enlightened individuals I have ever met -- having done the WORK on himself while in jail.,
    Gaya Ethaniel: Like dumping the cartload of sin you described Zen maybe :)
    Zen (zen.arado): I have to work on my unforgiveness first
    Gilles Kuhn: do you think mishi i am so ignorant as to not know more advanced concept of karma in different buddhism? because my criotic apply to them too
    Nick Cassavetes: then he must have gone trough hell Bruce
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): exactly, Zen.
    Nick Cassavetes: when he realised what he did
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): He was raped by priests and nuns from the age of seven. . .
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Need I say more?
    Zen (zen.arado): not establish grand rules for a society
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): BUT He also forgives them all....
    Mitsu Ishii: for me forgiveness is a stance which allows us to absorb and transform negative actions that have been done on us and in a compassionate yet not Pollyanna way transform them into the world.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Who among us should cast the first stone?
    JS Saltwater: nicely put Mitsu
    Fizakaal Wei: yes, compassion, Mitsu
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zen (zen.arado): yes Bruce
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Wow. That's truly difficult, Bruce.
    Gilles Kuhn: forgiveness in that way mishi as often in oriental thinking sound horrifically egoist to me
    Enzooo Sellers: Mitsu - is that called alchemy ?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me loves the concept of "alchemy."
    Nick Cassavetes: I agree with Gilles again
    Mitsu Ishii: Gilles, it's clear to me you're not referring to what I am talking about; it's best if we drop the subject. It has nothing to do with religion. I'm not interested in religion or religious ideas at all, really.
    Fizakaal Wei: explain, Gliles
    Gaya Ethaniel: /me passes a T-shirt to Nick, "I agree with Gilles." :P
    Eliza Madrigal: hm... looked for quote and found a page of forgiveness tips (hah) one great one is 'stop telling the story'...
    Mitsu Ishii: your criticism doesn't have anything to do with what I was trying to say.
    Zen (zen.arado): yes Eliza
    Mickorod Renard: i like that statement of your idea mitsu
    Nick Cassavetes: it's even metaphisical what you are sayin Mitsu
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me forgives Gaya for not giving him a t-shirt.
    Zen (zen.arado): rumination and beating ouesellves up
    Nick Cassavetes: very strong claims wich bear on everything else
    Mitsu Ishii: I really don
    Zen (zen.arado): hair shirt
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah Zen
    Mitsu Ishii: I really don't believe in metaphysical grounding for ethics.
    Gilles Kuhn: yes my criticism is grounded on a totally different paradigm than you mishi i know
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ha ha !
    Nick Cassavetes: you are doing just that!
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me loves his hairshirts.
    Mitsu Ishii: any metaphysical grounding must be absolutely minimal in my view.
    Gilles Kuhn: i agree with nik
    Mickorod Renard: if someone came to me and asked forgiveness i may have some faith in humanity
    Mitsu Ishii: i.e., with as few assumptions as possible.
    Zen (zen.arado): sackcloth and ashes
    Mitsu Ishii: the problem gilles is that we are in agreement but you don't think we are. :)
    Zen (zen.arado): oh how guilty I am '
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Ahhh . . . then I shall come to you, Mick, and ask for firgiveness.
    Eliza Madrigal: thanks everyone
    Nick Cassavetes: lol!!!!
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): forgiveness*
    Gilles Kuhn: its tricky to know your own assumption mishi you know that
    Mickorod Renard: but generally speaking we want to give forgivness to sort out our own issues
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Eliza :)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Bye Liz
    Zen (zen.arado): bye Eliza
    Mickorod Renard: by eliza
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh Mick
    Zen (zen.arado): start where we are
    Zen (zen.arado): with our own faults
    Mitsu Ishii: yes, but you don't even know what my assumptions are!
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Where else could we possibly start than where we are?
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Where we were?
    Zen (zen.arado): with everyone else?
    Zen (zen.arado): :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): can't start there -- sorrry.
    Mitsu Ishii: someday we should discuss this in a separate forum, so as not to bore everyone else :)
    Zen (zen.arado): what we often do
    Zen (zen.arado): you agree though Bruce?
    Gilles Kuhn: so you accept you have assumption mishi ok let hear thelm
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yeppers.
    Zen (zen.arado): easy to blame others
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): No blame - no shame -- Just do the work on yourself.
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh
    Mitsu Ishii: I assume there is some sort of world, and that it has some sort of constraints on what is possible.
    Fizakaal Wei: blaming others distracts from the work *we* need to do
    Mitsu Ishii: i.e., reflected in, say, laws of physics, though those laws cannot be fully verified naturally.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): YES, Fiz!
    Mickorod Renard: should we blame ourselves for bringing on evil because of our kindness?
    Mitsu Ishii: I believe time and space are induced by mind --- here I somewhat agree with Kant
    Gilles Kuhn: ok mitsu so you are not a solipsist but almost nobody is
    Zen (zen.arado): if we had good intentions ..no I think
    Mitsu Ishii: I don't agree with Kant that one ought to reason in terms of a priori
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Our notions that we are "bringing kindness" might be the veryu source of evil (or what you are calling "evil").
    Gilles Kuhn: you have perhaps not nderstood the notion of a priori or only in a folk way.....
    Mickorod Renard: I was refering to our kindness looking like a passport to being abused
    Mitsu Ishii: Perhaps you are correct. However, it seems a bit inelegant.
    Mitsu Ishii: to me
    Mitsu Ishii: I'd rather start with more minimal assumptions.
    Nick Cassavetes: lol Mitsu!
    Mitsu Ishii: that is I think you can get more minimal than Kant's a priori ideas.
    Gilles Kuhn: it would be if there was not the notion of analytic, synthesis, a posteriori and critic too
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): "I will abuse you for your own good" -- and for the Larger Good ---- Mmmmm....?
    Nick Cassavetes: you're problem is exactly you are supposing about the nature of the universe, without wanting to admit it, or seeing it yourself
    Gaya Ethaniel: So we have a couple of minutes left ...
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Mmmmm, Bruce
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,what I am meaning is,,by being kind in nature is sometimes seen by others as a weakness,,and as such taken advantage of
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
    Enzooo Sellers: Bruce you just defined capitalism
    Gaya Ethaniel: Do you want to continue next week or change topics?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Ha!
    Mitsu Ishii: I basically think most ideas are simply metastable states of interaction of mind-world which cannot be totally separated.
    Zen (zen.arado): how about 'acceptance'?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think Mick being kind includes ourselves too ... needs to be balanced.
    Mitsu Ishii: that is to say, there's some sort of mind-world interaction which allows for some somewhat stable feedback loops that allow certain ideas to survive and others to be discarded.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): "acceptance" is a wonderful topic.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): (I think.)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Acceptance, yes a good one.
    Zen (zen.arado): is it resignation, rejection?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Dao suggested Freedom previously.
    Mickorod Renard: well, I am disapointed with this session, even though I am failing as I was late
    Zen (zen.arado): passivity?
    Gilles Kuhn: mmmh mishi that refer to a semi idealist idea of yours that i know a bit of and that i found fascinating as theory
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Freedom?
    Mickorod Renard: I think I will head home,,thanks all
    Mitsu Ishii: of course all those notions themselves are merely provisional. Even logic is to me, merely provisional, a model.
    Zen (zen.arado): bye Mick
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Be well, Mick :)
    Mitsu Ishii: that sort of outlines my basic views.
    Gaya Ethaniel: When you desire and fear, and identify yourself with your feelings, you create sorrow and bondage. When you create, with love and wisdom, and remain unattached to your creations, the result is harmony and peace. But whatever be the condition of your mind, in what way does it reflect on you? It is only your self-identification with your mind that makes you happy or unhappy. Rebel against your slavery to your mind, see your bonds as self- created and break the chains of attachment and revulsion. Keep in mind your goal of freedom, until it dawns on you that you are already free, that freedom is not something in the distant future to be earned with painful efforts, but perennially one's own, to be used! Liberation is not an acquisition but a matter of courage, the courage to believe that you are free already and to act on it.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me would love to hear more from Mick. . .
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): So long mick
    Mitsu Ishii: bye mick
    Zen (zen.arado): nice Gaya
    JS Saltwater: Gaya you just made that up, right? (jk)
    Nick Cassavetes: suspects the desire to be without desire as allways ;)
    Mitsu Ishii: I am trying to bridge the gap between idealism and materialism to some degree, without living totally in either since I'm not a solipsist
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Mm...I like that topic :)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): I will go too. I need to type up the PaB session...
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Take care all
    Gaya Ethaniel: Think it's a quote of Nisargadatta.
    JS Saltwater: bye Ag
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Agatha :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): "You are already free."
    Mitsu Ishii: but for me, Buddhism is just a set of interesting observations. the "religious" aspects of it as far as they're dogma don't really interest me.
    JS Saltwater: k thx Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night those leaving :)
    Mitsu Ishii: I apologize if I gave the wrong impression with my use of the word "karma"
    Nick Cassavetes: I'll brb
    Zen (zen.arado): nite all
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye everyone leaving.
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): so, gilles, do you forgive or not?
    Gilles Kuhn: i know mishi but that is very good in epistemology but i am afraid it will not work as yet in ethics or moral as we need there to make actual decision now....
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me listens for the wolf's reply.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think acceptance is related to this so perhaps we continue with acceptance ... I will send a group email out.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): thank you, Gaya.
    Mitsu Ishii: Agamben has some interesting ideas about ethics which I think provide a hint of where you can go
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I should be going, too. Take care, everyone :)
    Mitsu Ishii: anyway that's a big topic, I do have ideas about it but we can discuss ourselves someday.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye, Violet.
    Mitsu Ishii: sorry everyone for getting into a debate with gilles :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): lovely dress, dear.
    Mitsu Ishii: I have to go too
    Gaya Ethaniel: np :)
    Mitsu Ishii: see you later
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks Mitsu :)
    JS Saltwater: you are forgiven Mit
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye, Mitsu -- and thank you for your contributions today.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks everyone :)
    Gilles Kuhn: as i said forgiveness is an act that is only possible when you are two to do it one to accept it and ask for it recognising is wrong doing and wanting to correct it and the other that extend it and forgive but not forget what wrong was done and by forgive i mean fully
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): i'm off folks
    Gaya Ethaniel: heh ... totally different from what I consider forgiveness is.
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): cu
    Mitsu Ishii: okay
    Mitsu Ishii: good night all
    JS Saltwater: isnt that leaning toward a concept of redemption?
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): meep!
    JS Saltwater: gotta run too, but enjoyed being around smart peeps ty all
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye, JS.
    Gilles Kuhn: perhaps js: redemption is always a intersubjective thing for religious in front of god for atheist in front of others men
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Ooops.. gotta run -- THANKS, everyone!
    JS Saltwater: yes Gilles fine shades of meaning between forgiveness and redemption imo
    JS Saltwater: see you next time

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