01.13.2011 - Beauty II

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    Dao Yheng: Hi Eliza, nice to see you in red :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dao :)
    Eliza Madrigal: thanks for the compliment. I really love this red, too!
    Eliza Madrigal: I was just afk catching up on reports...
    Dao Yheng: Nice set of reports, huh?
    Eliza Madrigal: very!
    Eliza Madrigal: I was just struck by two things reading Calvino's... nice job
    Dao Yheng: Yours reminded me of those old chinese poems -- snow in the pines, moon reflected in the lake, etc
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Dao and Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles, thank you
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya :)
    Dao Yheng: Yes, I loved the way Calvino's built up together
    Dao Yheng: hi gaya!
    Dao Yheng: My favorite bunny!
    Eliza Madrigal: :) mine too
    Eliza Madrigal: I absolutely love your conversation snapshot Dao
    Dao Yheng: Hi Calvino!
    Gaya Ethaniel: As requested :P
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi everyone :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe Gaya, yes back by popular demand
    Gaya Ethaniel: yeah
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cal :))
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Cal :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: http://waysofknowing.kira.org/
    Eliza Madrigal: seem to be missing folks today...
    Dao Yheng: Ha ha, we've got the room to ourselves...
    Eliza Madrigal: :D
    Eliza Madrigal: room half full or half empty
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: we were remarking on your beautiful report, Calvino
    Dao Yheng: Eliza, in your report you mention seeing beauty everywhere -- felt that too over the last couple of weeks
    Eliza Madrigal: yes?
    Dao Yheng: Yes, calvino!
    Dao Yheng: (I think it's easier when on vacation :) )
    Eliza Madrigal: :) maybe vacatio makes a frame?
    Eliza Madrigal: *vacation
    Eliza Madrigal: or permission?
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks .. I could really relate to the other reports and get a feel for how they say similar things in different ways
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tim!
    Calvino Rabeni: I so often have that experience of watching people
    Timbo Quan: Hello everyone
    Calvino Rabeni: and hope I can be un-stressed-out enough to to it
    Dao Yheng: Hi Timbo!
    Eliza Madrigal: people in the wild
    Dao Yheng: yes!
    Eliza Madrigal notices avy scurrying in.... Hello Avy :)
    Avy Runner: hey
    Avy Runner: sorry to be late
    Avy Runner: forgot
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Avy :)
    Calvino Rabeni feels like giving Avy a "boost" up to the chair
    Dao Yheng: Hi Avy :)
    Eliza Madrigal: haha, yes
    Avy Runner: thanks Cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: any time
    Dao Yheng: (clapping!)
    Avy Runner: :)
    Dao Yheng: Eliza, you mentioned a couple things that stood out for you in Calvino's report -- say more?
    Eliza Madrigal: I can almost hear the family talking still Dao.. that kind of fatherly reassurance is indeed beautiful
    Eliza Madrigal: And okay... let me see,,,
    Avy Runner: (sorry, did do my homework, didn't place it yet)
    Gaya Ethaniel: np
    Eliza Madrigal: First was Cal's commentary on the poem...
    Eliza Madrigal: and the singling out of paradox as linguistic construct...
    Eliza Madrigal: pointing so something more hm, instant or direct, to my hearing
    Eliza Madrigal: then, the end... I was quite struck by the idea of beauty being an outer manifestation of an inner quality of love
    Dao Yheng: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: thought that was quite, beautiful !
    Dao Yheng: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: So would love to hear more or others thoughts on these ideas, felt energized by the reports this week, and Gaya and my conversation on Wed too... prep work, hehe
    Dao Yheng: yes, love makes things beautiful -- had a friend in high school who by objective standards of female beauty had a funny face -- but I was always struck by how she seemed to get more beautiful month by month...
    Dao Yheng: finally, realized it was because I was getting to know her better!
    Gaya Ethaniel whispers, "I kind of cheated on homework." :P
    Dao Yheng: :))
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm... yes its funny. I've known people who should have been beautiful but their own attitudes sort of closed that down or something...
    You silently accept Snapshot_005 from Avy Runner.
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, thanks Avy
    Avy Runner: my homework
    Dao Yheng: nice!
    Eliza Madrigal: so beauty is perhaps not a 'doing' or a putting together of parts that make sense...
    Eliza Madrigal: element of uncanny, as cal mentioned too?
    Gaya Ethaniel: ty
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
    Eliza Madrigal sits on hands (as Bruce likes to say) after saying HI ZEN :D
    Avy Runner: hi Zen :)
    Zen Arado: Hi all:)
    Calvino Rabeni: People often say when women are pregant they get more beautiful ...
    Calvino Rabeni: In part, it seems Beauty itself is pregnant
    Calvino Rabeni: and of course the hormones and attitude changes and the probably pheromones that affect the viewer's endocrine system
    Calvino Rabeni: But I think metaphors are powerful
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ataraxia
    Ataraxia Azemus: Hi everyone :)
    Avy Runner: hi Ataraxia
    Zen Arado: Hi Ataraxia
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Ataraxia :)
    Dao Yheng: Maybe metaphors are all that we have :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Ataraxia Azemus: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I feel all objects are metaphors
    Calvino Rabeni: in that sense it is true
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Calvino Rabeni: not as a linguistic construct
    Dao Yheng: Gaya, I really appreciated your comment about practice too
    Zen Arado: metaphrs are descriptions surely
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: A thing of beauty says - hey wake up, I am more than dreamed of by your constructs
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, have been thinking of that sense of vibrancy since
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, reverberation
    Zen Arado: or less than our constructs
    Zen Arado: we can build things up in our minds
    Zen Arado: can we ever really see something?
    Eliza Madrigal: this week when the woman in arizona was beginning to connect, they said they were most hopeful because she was making spontaneous movements... and I felt that captured something about life itself
    Zen Arado: free of ur interpretations?
    Dao Yheng: Yes, it's been interesting to notice that -- how much of what I think is "real" is really just a description or construct
    Calvino Rabeni: Beauty offers a way out of that cartesian box
    Zen Arado: yes Eliza?
    Zen Arado: is beauty a construction or something intrinsic to the thing itself?
    Eliza Madrigal: aliveness, Zen, spontaneousness is so in the moment, by definition.. seems lively, vibrant quality
    Calvino Rabeni: Its relational
    Zen Arado: ah yes
    Zen Arado: or a consensus of humans?
    Calvino Rabeni: beauty is a state of relationship between awareness and world
    Ataraxia Azemus: I'd say relational, too; beauty is the object, the observer and what the relationship means to someone
    Zen Arado: don't think anials see beauty in things?
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice, Ataraxia
    Zen Arado: animals*
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm an animal, so yes
    Eliza Madrigal: they may and may not 'call' it something :)
    Zen Arado: so both intrinsic and our construction?
    Zen Arado: non human animals I mean
    Avy Runner: maybe it is about attraction, in that case animals feel it too
    Calvino Rabeni: I think nonhuman animals "name" things in a similar but less complex way than human animals
    Calvino Rabeni: On the other hand maybe more complex
    Dao Yheng: Animals must preceive beauty, or else they'd all look like grey blobs, no?
    Eliza Madrigal: True!
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Eliza Madrigal thinks of birds of paradise now
    Zen Arado: ah good point Dao
    Eliza Madrigal: :D
    Calvino Rabeni: the colour blind animals have drab looking mates
    Ataraxia Azemus: Some animals have shown an appreciation of aesthetics, I think, so some may appreciate beauty, too
    Zen Arado: peacocks must look good to peahens :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes and what pattern makers many are
    Avy Runner: yes Dao
    Dao Yheng: for sure! :)
    Eliza Madrigal: sense of space, etc
    Calvino Rabeni: The birds feel when the songs of the other birds are "just right" enough to move them
    Zen Arado: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: hmmm...
    Calvino Rabeni: perceiving and responding to subtle Qualities
    Zen Arado: it is a judgement of fitness for mating too
    Zen Arado: maybe mostly?
    Calvino Rabeni: perhaps perception of quality is (necessary for) beauty
    Avy Runner: beauty with a purpose
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: utilitarian beauty
    Zen Arado: not beauty for beauty's sake :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I went to an exhibit recently and noted how many paintings were about events that must have been so painful...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Interesting ...
    Zen Arado: yes - art is more than beauty
    Eliza Madrigal: in a lighter one, a woman was made to play instruments for these men, who were unguarded because her purity shamed them....
    Zen Arado: Victorian art gave moral lectures
    Eliza Madrigal: the way she played, that is
    Avy Runner: is there beauty in uglyness
    Ataraxia Azemus: A lot of Western art is anchored in painful experiences. But that can be made beautiful, too!
    Avy Runner: ?
    Eliza Madrigal: hm... well there are really cute ugly things...
    Zen Arado: can still be panted well
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Avy Runner: cute..... :)
    Zen Arado: painted well*
    Eliza Madrigal: hairless cats... (apologies to these cats and owners) hehe
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.google.com/images?q=picas...w=1001&bih=673
    Ataraxia Azemus: I think beautiful works of art can still be ugly, if there is a strong aesthetic awareness
    Zen Arado: is there a universal standard of beauty?
    Ataraxia Azemus: I was looking up Guernica, too... :)
    Avy Runner: is that pick I sended you something beautiful or ugly?
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.google.com/images?q=picas...w=1001&bih=673
    Calvino Rabeni: Theses were (and are) disturbing paintings
    Eliza Madrigal: something can be admired for complexity and multifacetedness.. so yes I wonder do we call that beautiful
    Zen Arado: and yet the Demoiselles are beautiful too
    Eliza Madrigal: The picture you sent made me feel I might be in a dark comic... ws interesting avy
    Ataraxia Azemus: Beautiful, Avy; although it's dark, the symmetry, the lighting and use of color make it aesthetically nice
    Zen Arado: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Or you could say, the disturbed, aroused viewer who sees the passion of life is more beautiful than the distracted, bored, numbed, forgetful viewer
    Ataraxia Azemus: If it moves us, I would, Eliza
    Avy Runner: ah right, movement
    Eliza Madrigal: life :)
    Avy Runner: it caught my eye immediately, have been looking at it for a while, but it also got something disturbing
    Calvino Rabeni: Um the dark structure in that image reminds me of the noir aesthetic of the ancient space vehicle in "Stargate Universe"
    Eliza Madrigal: sorry, sneezy, brb
    Ataraxia Azemus: Bless you!
    Zen Arado: there's a feeling of menace in it
    Dao Yheng: yes, the dark side of beauty...
    Gaya Ethaniel: :(
    Zen Arado: of aliveness
    Avy Runner: (some beautifull blobs are dripping down from the screen :))
    Avy Runner: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: What do you guys think of Lucien Freud?
    Calvino Rabeni: http://cinefantastiqueonline.com/wp-...e-Universe.jpg
    Dao Yheng: Lucien Freud: http://www.google.com/images?q=lucie...w=1238&bih=614
    Dao Yheng: brb
    Ataraxia Azemus: I like Freud. His figures look like people.
    Gaya Ethaniel: http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesi...28/lucianfreud
    Zen Arado: his paintings grew more grotesque didn't they
    Zen Arado: the people are ugly though
    Zen Arado: not conventional beauty
    Avy Runner: something that is staring us in the face
    Ataraxia Azemus: But that's sort of interesting, in art :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I can appreciate them in the sense we talked about in your report Gaya, but not exactly uplifting
    Gaya Ethaniel: hehe
    Eliza Madrigal: there for me, is little to get to know,there
    Ataraxia Azemus: I agree with Eliza, I think
    Ataraxia Azemus: I think Henry Fuseli's work is very beautiful, even though most of it is sinister and eerie
    Eliza Madrigal: -there in which ever place you choose aesthetically, haha
    Calvino Rabeni: Another interesting artist is Red Grooms - but I think it can't be "seen" well except in the original
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.google.com/images?um=1&rl...1&q=red+grooms
    Avy Runner: is beauty a cover up of decay?
    Eliza Madrigal: agree Ataraxia...of what I've seen
    Ataraxia Azemus: I like these, Calvino!
    Calvino Rabeni: Groom's work was highly stylized and urban and chaotic, but, when viewed in person, has a real presence
    Eliza Madrigal: these images seem like newspaper cover to me, which is interesting but not necessarily striking (to me)
    Zen Arado: it is more about communicating something than beauty
    Calvino Rabeni: the presence of the actual experience stands in contrast to the cartoon-like nature of what it looks like superficially
    Avy Runner: there is humor in those ones
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, yes in person often makes a difference
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes eliza, you have to be there
    Calvino Rabeni: where it's uncanny
    Avy Runner: is humor related to beauty?
    Calvino Rabeni: the sense of those silly images, simultaneously as if they are "someone REALLY there"
    Eliza Madrigal: element of surprise
    Eliza Madrigal: so what is presence made up of then? :)
    Avy Runner: can humor make something beautiful that isn't?
    Calvino Rabeni: Presence is a quality of beauty
    Gaya Ethaniel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVxGh5GpP0Q
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm Avy, I can't make that connection at this time
    Eliza Madrigal: i would say flipped in the sense of your report love/beauty
    Ataraxia Azemus: I think so, Avy; Vonnegut's sense of humor sometimes transformed tragic events into something warm and human.
    Zen Arado: think you have to give up on the idea of beauty with some art
    Avy Runner: presence seems also be a presence of uglyness
    Eliza Madrigal: hahaha gaya...
    Gaya Ethaniel: :P
    Eliza Madrigal: terrible...
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Ataraxia Azemus: There's lots of art I'd call call interesting or pleasing but not beautiful
    Avy Runner: :))
    Eliza Madrigal: yes Ataraxia... nice distinction
    Avy Runner: right Ata
    Zen Arado: it has a different purpose - to shock maybe
    Calvino Rabeni: The aesthetic of beauty has not been a hallmark of postmodern art
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think art as we knew it died ... we are kind of in a transition.
    Zen Arado: but the old question arises - what is art?
    Eliza Madrigal: speaking of which, are we continuing with this theme, or?
    Gaya Ethaniel: But the topic we are discussing is slightly different from asethetics I think ...
    Avy Runner: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: I never noticed the beauty of paintings by Jackson Pollock, until one day ... I was walking on a rocky beach where there had been an offshore oil leak, and the rocks were spattered and lined with tendrils of oil
    Calvino Rabeni: and I saw that as beautiful
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: and after that saw the Pollock work in a different way
    Avy Runner: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: another set of works which are 'different' in person
    Zen Arado: and oil spills can have rainbow colours in them
    Avy Runner: so beauty is in the relation with us and the object
    Avy Runner: but still wondering when we call somethng beautifull
    Eliza Madrigal: I will have to go in a moment, need to take a nap before other things tonight...
    Calvino Rabeni: So I learned something of beauty from an industrial accident :)
    Avy Runner: what is it in ourselves to name some beautiful
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: That is the question!
    Zen Arado: that's about taste....
    Gaya Ethaniel: Indeed ... a lot depends on the 'beholder' as Dao put it in the report.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Shall we continue next week then?
    Calvino Rabeni: The "open" consciousness behind the eyes
    Zen Arado: fine with me
    Ataraxia Azemus: Are these meetings regular?
    Eliza Madrigal: Seems fine to me... keep snapshotting beauty sightings

    Avy Runner: but what is the \movement we make to make a difference to something we call beautiful or the opposite
    Calvino Rabeni: Weekly at this time
    Eliza Madrigal: yes Ataraxia :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Exactly, Avy
    Ataraxia Azemus: Cool beans :)
    Calvino Rabeni: that is the crux
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sure Atari, please see http://waysofknowing.kira.org/ for more information.
    Ataraxia Azemus: Thanks, Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: yw :)
    Avy Runner: adn I think humor is somehow important here
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks everyone :) Good night!
    Zen Arado: yes it can be
    Avy Runner is still pondering obviously
    Ataraxia Azemus: Goodnight!
    Eliza Madrigal: Nite Gaya and Everyone, will post soon
    Avy Runner: :)
    Avy Runner: nite
    Zen Arado: nite Gaya
    Eliza Madrigal: (waves to dao when she returns)
    Zen Arado: nite Eliza
    Zen Arado: Hogarth was quite humourous
    Timbo Quan: nite everyone
    Zen Arado: satirical art
    Ataraxia Azemus: I must be going, too; goodnight everyone :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Humor, Avy ? (searching for threads)
    Avy Runner: nite :)
    Avy Runner: humor seems to make us willing to 'eat' things
    Avy Runner: that might give us a threatening feeling
    Calvino Rabeni: Naps are a marvelous invention
    Avy Runner: don't know yet, it just came up
    Zen Arado: have a nice nap Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: thanks, bye
    Avy Runner: sleep well eliza

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