Ways of Knowing -- December 15, 2011
Exploring "sangha" -- Part 2
Mickorod Renard: hi Bruce
Mickorod Renard: I came looking for you last night
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Mick! Still materializing out of the mist, I am.
Mickorod Renard: Pila has us set to do some stuff on archetypes
Mickorod Renard: how are you?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): You were looking for moi?
Mickorod Renard: yes
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Oh yes!!! The archetypes!
Mickorod Renard: he he
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): GOSH, I keep forgetting to respond to Pila!
Mickorod Renard: I am sure its about the i ching
Mickorod Renard: not wok
Mickorod Renard: Hi cal
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes -- but archetypes was the last item on his list. . .
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): so, I assumed that we'd be putting it off for a while.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Cal!
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Bruce, Mick, Santo
Mickorod Renard: erk, did I miss other stuff?
Mickorod Renard: Hi San
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Cal, San, - - -
Mickorod Renard: I will read up some on archetypes
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes, there was a list of topics. . . (sry, everyone, Mick and I were talking about Pila's I Ching group).
Mickorod Renard: we must chat one day about it
San (santoshima): please excuse me, i will eventually come in
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): cool - - May I suggest that you look into Carl Jung -- and possibly James Hillman, in your investigation, Mick?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): OK.
San (santoshima): firestorm is a storm of slowness
Mickorod Renard: ok,,i did look at Jung
Mickorod Renard: I read him up many years ago too
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yeah. I'm a dyed in the wool SL Viewer fan.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): welcome again, San!
Mickorod Renard: is Pila on hols still?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Didn't realize that Pila was on "hold."
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): or was that it?
Mickorod Renard: holiday, i think
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): kk.
Mickorod Renard: Hi alf
Mickorod Renard: hi Wol
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Wol!
boxy (alfred.kelberry): hi :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Boxy!
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bruce loves Wol's skating prowess.
boxy (alfred.kelberry): :)
Wol Euler: :)
boxy (alfred.kelberry): wuff!
boxy (alfred.kelberry): filling the silence
Mickorod Renard: he he
Mickorod Renard: so, where did we get to?
Calvino Rabeni: Well then ... I guess you've read the WOK email Bruce so valiantly compiled
Calvino Rabeni: about today's meeting?
Bruce ponders "valiantly."
Calvino Rabeni: This is the second meeting on the topic of "sangha"
Wol Euler: Wol Euler looks at her feet, avoiding your eye
Calvino Rabeni: heh
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: well one can also have the experience of playing it "by ear" :)
Calvino Rabeni: an English expression for improvising
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bruce enjoys improvising -- spontaneity.
boxy (alfred.kelberry): aph! :)
Wol Euler: hello aph
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Aph!
boxy (alfred.kelberry): aph is lost in the plants :)
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Hi sorry I'm late
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): The plants are not lost; she's fine.
Calvino Rabeni: Skilled improvising is the stuff of masters - whether jazz or marital arts or another discipline
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): spits out a leaf
boxy (alfred.kelberry): :)
boxy (alfred.kelberry): very descriptive comment, aph :)
Bruce listens for more from Cal.
Calvino Rabeni: The word sangha means spiritual community, and I guess it claims that such is possible :)
Calvino Rabeni: And in a way we've broadened it past its Buddhist origins
Calvino Rabeni: to be about a possibility available to us more generally
Calvino Rabeni: with apologies to the Buddhists who want to have that word mean their own schools
Calvino Rabeni: because we don't have a word for it
Calvino Rabeni: at least not in general
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): it's a form of flattery too
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): what has improvising got to do with the concept of sangha?
boxy (alfred.kelberry): it is part of the 4 truths, isn't it?
Calvino Rabeni: Only that we're improvising our cultural forms?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): wb, Mick.
Calvino Rabeni: And certain people don't read the emails framing the question :)
Mickorod Renard: sorry, i didn't realize i crashed
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): wb mick with an onigokko tail
Calvino Rabeni: so they get to improvise :)
Mickorod Renard: :))
boxy (alfred.kelberry): mick :)
Wol Euler: wb mick
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): ah! :-)
Bruce continues to listen to Cal.
Calvino Rabeni: I'm interested to know, how many here have had in past or present, a community around them the exists to support spiritual personal or emotional growth
Calvino Rabeni: ?
Calvino Rabeni: It would be nice to have some experiential reflections
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I suppose I have had when I went to church as a child and teenager
boxy (alfred.kelberry): ah, it's part of the 3 jewels
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I have -- a men's group that functioned as a sort of "snagha" for fourteen years.
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): they chose me however; I didn't choose them.
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): My mother did
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): sangha*
Calvino Rabeni: :) likes that typo Brice
Mickorod Renard: I had church, but when I moved, lost that
Calvino Rabeni: Bruce
Mickorod Renard: but I also see pab and wok as that too
Calvino Rabeni: There's also the possibility of spiritual friendships
boxy (alfred.kelberry): yes, mick
Wol Euler: I've only had PaB for that
Calvino Rabeni: I agree Mick, PaB has some of that too, and WOK
Wol Euler: and before virtual reality a blog-based internet group
San (santoshima): aren't all friendships, that, Cal? to varying degrees?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): good question, San.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I think so San
Calvino Rabeni: what might determine the degree?
San (santoshima): so do i
Mickorod Renard: but some friendships seem to have selfish attributes
Calvino Rabeni: Is it something we can have intentions about, or hold desires to work with?
San (santoshima): causes and conditions
San (santoshima): skill
San (santoshima): motivation and intent
San (santoshima): yes, can have intention toward spiritual growth within friendships
boxy (alfred.kelberry): if we stay in the Buddhist scope then (from wiki): "most commonly, Sangha means the monastic Sangha of ordained Buddhist monks or nuns"
Calvino Rabeni: Like Bruce I have an ongoing men's group, and also individual friendships within that container... I think the group holds the friendships
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): not all friendships have a purpose, an intent, a vision statement
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): But even with 'selfish' attributes -- even narcissism - our friends can function as vehicles among whom and through which we can "practice."
San (santoshima): so we can speak of "householders" from that same perspective, boxy
boxy (alfred.kelberry): i think "monastic" is the emphasis
Calvino Rabeni: Yes Alfred, though personally I'm interested in learning from the possibilities of observing other traditions, but not going to join one. So the broader definition I think, assists thinking about what else is possible for us besides joining a traditional group
Mickorod Renard: friendships don't always have the same goals
boxy (alfred.kelberry): violet :)
San (santoshima): sangha has a similar meaning for non-monastics
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): welcome to the throng, Violet.
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): certain friendships-not all
San (santoshima): it's a support
Wol Euler: hello violet
Calvino Rabeni: There are whole Buddhist cultures too, with only a small percentage of monastics, but broadly Buddhist lifestyles
Mickorod Renard: Hi Violet
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Boxy, Bruce, everyone :)
San (santoshima): hi Violet :)
Calvino Rabeni: The monks are looked up to
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bruce ponders "what else is possible for us besides joining a traditional group."
San (santoshima): the nuns are less lauded
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I have a great group of friends with whom I have hiked every September since 1985- we call ourselves "the Skoki Broads"
Calvino Rabeni: but isn't that a little like we look up to the idea of a Buddhist sangha as a kind of inspiration of certain possibilities we don't have?
Calvino Rabeni: Or don't feel we do ..
Calvino Rabeni: Nice, Aphro
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): each of the broads inspires and teaches me in a different way
Calvino Rabeni: Great!
Mickorod Renard: that's nice
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): we go thru life's changes and talk about them
Calvino Rabeni: I think that's a really good way of pointing out something that happens in such groups
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): as we hike
Calvino Rabeni: The recognition that individuality contributes to the whole larger group
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): love affairs, divorces, cancer, mothers, menopause..
boxy (alfred.kelberry): aph, yes. this is wonderful. i think your group is well eligible for the sangha status :)
Calvino Rabeni: and that individuals may benefit from it , there
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bruce ponders hiking itself as sangha.
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): :-) I'll let them know. They would be delighted
Calvino Rabeni: Yes it was for Thoreau and Emerson
Calvino Rabeni: I agree with Alfred
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I agree with Cal on the "sangha status" bit.
boxy (alfred.kelberry): bruce, yes. there's a monastic sense in hiking.
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): we are a mutual support group; 2 have died in the past year and that has brought us even closer
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Isn't "sangha" somehow a matter of personal involvement -- quality of involvement, and decision for involvement?
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): tho we live all across North America
boxy (alfred.kelberry): *hugs aph*
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): you mean commitment, Bruce?
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): (boxy)
Calvino Rabeni: It makes sense that some commitment and intention is required, Bruce?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): (((Aph)))
Mickorod Renard: I think a commitment to a certain mutual objective is central
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): feels well hugged
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I think so, Cal.
boxy (alfred.kelberry): i think maybe you mean a certain degree of intimacy, Bruce?
Calvino Rabeni: The mutual objective might be a general felt sense, not spelled out verbally anywhere
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): My major RL "sangha" discussed suicide recently.
Calvino Rabeni: nods
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): yes? why?
Mickorod Renard: true, but the central issue could be the star that we orbit
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): the really amazing thing was that every viewpoint on that subject was fairly and equally heard.
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): how is that an issue Mick?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Equanimity to the max.
boxy (alfred.kelberry): um, the star?
Bruce ponders "star that we orbit.," (loves the metaphor).
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): why did that happen Bruce? Is it the nature of the group?
Bruce listens for more from Mick.
Mickorod Renard: I meant that as well as being friends and support, we mustn't loose track of the object
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): (yes, it is, Aph).
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nods
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): \;-)
Calvino Rabeni: That's a good point Mick. I often wonder how a group best keeps track of its central star
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): the star is the objective of the group Mick?
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): metaphorically speaking
Calvino Rabeni: how to keep it in remembrance
boxy (alfred.kelberry): not sure i follow you, mick :) what object?
Mickorod Renard: I have seen groups fragment because of loosing its way
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nods
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): the star is the objective of the group
Bruce recalls that some have felt THIS group to have lost its way. . .
boxy (alfred.kelberry): ah
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: A sense of unity an purpose ... can be a subtle thing and can wax and wane too
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): and then we are finding it again
Mickorod Renard: I think as long as we identify why we are in WoK initially,
boxy (alfred.kelberry): common goal, purpose
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, good example Bruce :)
Mickorod Renard: ways of knowing
Mickorod Renard: what does that mean?
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): we are in the middle of re-writing it..
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hmmmm. . .
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): It seems like an evolving and organic process to me, Mick.
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): way we can comprehend our world
Calvino Rabeni: I've found stating things coherently and rationally works as a kind of contemplation exercise for a group
Wol Euler nods.
San (santoshima): svadhyaya > study of the self
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nods energetically
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): There is a meta-star (that we orbit) as we evolve.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): perhaps.
Calvino Rabeni: but there needs to be some other "magic" or bigger context that makes people actually really believe the statements
boxy (alfred.kelberry): cal, agreed
boxy (alfred.kelberry): um, believe?
Mickorod Renard: without throwing spanners in the works, perhaps we could look at the unaltered work that the Buddha himself wrote
Calvino Rabeni: 'believe' as in have faith in them, that the words are meaningful
boxy (alfred.kelberry): ah
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): So, allowing "sangha" to happen involves some primary acceptance -- perhaps denoted as a "faith: position?
Calvino Rabeni: that would be a good WOK study topic Mick
Calvino Rabeni: That could be true Bruce, I think so
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): It seems essential - experientially - to me.
Mickorod Renard: I think that true's Bruce, outsiders could see us as mad..but we have faith in our sangha
Calvino Rabeni: But it asks the contemplative for reflection ... "what is my default position from which I reach out with faith?"
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): To those who do not hear the music, the dancers are mad.
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Wol Euler: :)
Calvino Rabeni: yes, even with a diagram of the dance steps
Mickorod Renard: nice one, Bruce
boxy (alfred.kelberry): btw, is there a goal for this session? :)
Mickorod Renard: yes?
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): we count on our sangha but do we have faith in it?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): no goal, Boxy, just exploring the concept of "sangha" -- part two.
Calvino Rabeni: The goal is ... can we grasp "sangha" contemplatively
Calvino Rabeni: and I think we do a good job for such a short and diverse meeting
boxy (alfred.kelberry): hmm
Calvino Rabeni: Each person's statement could be a branch to a whole meaningful orbit
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): maybe to have a deeper knowing of what a sangha can be, Boxy
Calvino Rabeni: We're exploring
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hmmmm. . . "grasp" .... Can we grasp ANYTHING contemplatively? or is contemplation by definition a surrender of grasping?
Calvino Rabeni: I think it is both, Bruce
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Bruce listens, for a change.
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): an opening and a closing of a door
Calvino Rabeni: alert surrender, we're not going to sleep
boxy (alfred.kelberry): hmm
Calvino Rabeni: Agree Aph, perhaps contemplation oils the door hinges too
Calvino Rabeni: one closes another opens
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): we are taking in and processing what we hear from others
Calvino Rabeni: but focus helps
Calvino Rabeni: yes that seems a crux of sangha, what and how one learns from others
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): in an effort to apply it to ourselves
boxy (alfred.kelberry): what does it mean exactly: to 'grasp contemplatively'?
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): understand using contemplation as a means, Boxy
Bruce feels he's only just begun the process of learning within/through/as sangha.
Calvino Rabeni: It doesn't mean anything *exactly*, like the tao that can be imaged is not the true tao
boxy (alfred.kelberry): as in theoretical versus empirical?
Calvino Rabeni holds the same feeling, Bruce
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I am very new to the process of learning through contemplation
San (santoshima): aph, you are an artist
San (santoshima): it is not new to you
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I find it easier to learn from discussing a subject the way we are doing now
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): For me, sangha is definitely experiential -- more than theoretical.
San (santoshima): or painting
Calvino Rabeni: Nice Santo yes, people have different abilities in different areas
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): as hiking is experiential.
San (santoshima): yes
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): smiles at Santo.
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Never thought about creating as a means of learning
San (santoshima): it is a very deep way of learning and knowing
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Isn't all learning a form of creating? and all creating a form of learning?
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): perhaps a means of knowing though...
Calvino Rabeni: Done awarely ... it seems powerful
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nods
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Often, we have to learn to create
Calvino Rabeni: Even the traditional samurai warriors were expected to be good at poetry and painting
boxy (alfred.kelberry): bruce, so 'contemplative' would be sitting in a room in silence trying to understand what sangha is without participating in it?
Mickorod Renard: I think, to contemplate one has to have things to contemplate,,like moulding and shaping plastercine..without the plastercine its meaningless..the Sangha is like the box with the plastercine in it,,,perhaps?
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, it could easily be that, Boxy.
Calvino Rabeni: A sangha seems to bring real-life things to contemplate
boxy (alfred.kelberry): mick, good metaphor :)
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nice metaphor Mick
Calvino Rabeni: what makes them meaningful?
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): snap!
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): we make them meaningful
Calvino Rabeni: They become more than abstraction or speculation in some way
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): to ourselves
boxy (alfred.kelberry): Bruce, in other words, you're asking if sangha can constitute just one person?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Perhaps our willingness to "drop" what we're holding makes them meaningful - -
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): when 2 or 3 are gathered together with a common spiritual purpose
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): well, I've never thought of sangha as just one person....
San (santoshima): perhaps our willingness to hold what we are dropping makes it doubly meaningful
Calvino Rabeni: People take marriages seriously, and are much affected by losing them through divorce, it's a deep human condition of being connected
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ahhhhh!
boxy (alfred.kelberry): but you discuss how can one grasp it contemplatively
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): wonderful point, San!
San (santoshima): :)
Mickorod Renard is pondering San's words
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): sounds to me like "contemplation" is approaching us wanting itself to be a topic.
Calvino Rabeni listens for more
Mickorod Renard: he he
boxy (alfred.kelberry): :)
Calvino Rabeni: It's a good topic
Wol Euler: :)
boxy (alfred.kelberry): ari! :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Ari :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Welcome, Ari!
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Hiya Ari
Calvino Rabeni: Does anyone have an experience of leaving a sangha-like group, and what that was like?
Arisia Vita: Hi all
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): oh yes, Cal.
San (santoshima): hello Arisia :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): It was like a sort of death.
Wol Euler: hello ari
Calvino Rabeni: nods
Mickorod Renard: its just a point,,but Stim was central to WoK,,his great life work was if I am not wrong,,contemplative practice
Calvino Rabeni: A sort of death
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): it still is
Mickorod Renard: Hi Ari
Calvino Rabeni: a death of .. what?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): deep communion with the other men in the group, Cal.
Calvino Rabeni: nods
Calvino Rabeni: and "not having" that communion is a painful thing?
Mickorod Renard: I can understand that too
Calvino Rabeni: For me, two major "loss" experiences were leaving a marriage, and leaving a spiritual community
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): oh yes. . . although I know that the men are still in a sort of communion -- although not visible.
Calvino Rabeni: and I think the second one affected me more deeply
Mickorod Renard: I used to ride with other bikers,,not really a sangha,,but a brotherhood,,similar loss
Calvino Rabeni: That's nice to look on from afar, Bruce
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Loss of community and connection is difficult
boxy (alfred.kelberry): mick :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): perhaps we might only recognize sangha after we no longer "have" it.
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): interesting Cal, why so, do you think?
boxy (alfred.kelberry): wroom
Calvino Rabeni: Biker Sangha .. :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Why Aph?
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): why was loosing the men's group more painful?
Calvino Rabeni: Well marriage is sanctioned by the culture, and one can expect or imagine to have another
Calvino Rabeni: but the spiritual community is not well-sanctioned
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nods
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think we can recognize it while we do have it....but we might not always realize that we will or can lose it
Calvino Rabeni: so it felt like losing something irreplaceable
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): some inner, deep connection, Aph.
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): because it wasn't sanctioned?
Calvino Rabeni: because perhaps, it seemed like a rare bird
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): wasn't it replaceable too?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Mm
San (santoshima): please excuse me ~ thank you everyone for this sharing
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): ok I understand, it was unique
Bruce wonders whether to the original WoK group, our present WoK is "unsanctioned".
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Be well, San :)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye, thanks Santos
Mickorod Renard: a sense of belonging
Wol Euler: bye san, take care
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes, be thou well and happy, San.
Mickorod Renard: bye San
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): not yet Bruce!
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Thank you.
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Bye
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Bye! San. thanks for calling me an artist
boxy (alfred.kelberry): *likes unsanctioned deeds* :)
Calvino Rabeni: I think it is an interesting question about what we feel is possible or legitimate, Bruce
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Things don't have to be sanctioned to be real :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): You have the soul of an artist, Aph -- and your art reveals that.
Calvino Rabeni: A question is, do WOK members feel legitimate or not, and would having Stim involved add something?
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): ((Bruce))
Calvino Rabeni: Something irreplaceable?
boxy (alfred.kelberry): it would add academic rigor
Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps experiential depth and a certain kind of skill
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): It would add a sort of "authority" also. . .
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): good question. from where do we get legitimacy? from the group, the sangha? or from an outside group (PAB or KIRA)
boxy (alfred.kelberry): yes
Calvino Rabeni: That's a great question too
boxy (alfred.kelberry): never thought of my WoK status before :)
Calvino Rabeni: Do we need authorities, and how much?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): does authenticity come from without -- or from within?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes right :)
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I would like to say "from within"
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I don't think we need authorities; but we may need mentors....
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): each of us
Mickorod Renard: I didn't realise how much I would miss Stim, but Stim left us the plastercine box and we can fill it
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I think Jesus faced this problem -- when folks wanted to worship him and he said, NO WAY!!!!
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): smiles at Mick
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): so did the Buddha, say that.
boxy (alfred.kelberry): but there's always some kind of a leader (authority) present
Calvino Rabeni: Sure, we long for mentors, yes? And believe we can learn from them
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): work out your own awakening, they said.
Calvino Rabeni: This is one of the hidden issues isn't it?
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): It can sometimes be a vision or a value rather than a person Boxy
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): we can learn from everything, if we will.
boxy (alfred.kelberry): aph, someone has to lead
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I like mentors better than authorities, because they invite you to join them
boxy (alfred.kelberry): even if implicitly
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): someone ends up being the leader whatever we call them
boxy (alfred.kelberry): yes
boxy (alfred.kelberry): this place is never vacant
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): things tend to fall apart w/o a leader or a guiding set of principles or values
Calvino Rabeni: So if we believe in mentors, which seems reasonable, what is there to do when they aren't around?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Speaking of leaders, would everyone be OK if we decide through email about what we'll do next month -- There are issues with Kira to be resolved.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hunt for feral wisdom? :)
boxy (alfred.kelberry): without Bruce acting on wok nothing would happen
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): aawwww..... -- Of course it would!
Mickorod Renard: I have no affiliation to Buddhism other than I find the writings and teachings as a way of knowing..the Bible also works for me too
Calvino Rabeni: Sure Atara, the book of nature awaits also
boxy (alfred.kelberry): mick, yes. woly had a good word at the meetup - offerings :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes. I think that's a really good question, though, Cal
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): which one?
Mickorod Renard: but I fight indoctrination. if I spelt that correctly
boxy (alfred.kelberry): :)
Calvino Rabeni: We're in a unique historical age where the ideas of the world's wisdom traditions are available ... if only we can find a way to understand them :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): hehe, Mick
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nods
Mickorod Renard: good point Cal
Wol Euler clicks boxy's nose
boxy (alfred.kelberry): *nods to mick*
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): and communicate them
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and BE them.
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): in ways that make sense to us
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): oops, makes sense to ME
boxy (alfred.kelberry): :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): contemplative acceptance, perhaps.
Calvino Rabeni: Most people resist indoctrination ... it seems though there's some necessary loss of individual "freedom" to be part of group intelligence.. is that true?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Is group intelligence an oxymoron?
Calvino Rabeni: No
Wol Euler: not at all
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I think so Cal
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): just testing. ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: heh
Wol Euler: well, depends on the group
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think we try to be aware of the group's consensus.....and sometimes that means silencing ourselves
boxy (alfred.kelberry): groupthink
Calvino Rabeni: The consensus may emerge in a mysterious way
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I'm not sure whether there is consensus here
Mickorod Renard: I like the idea of coming to a realisation on my own rather than just swallowing what I am told
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): emerging consensus
Calvino Rabeni: oooh, scary word Alfred :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Is any of us as "awake" or as "wise" as all of us?
boxy (alfred.kelberry): cal, can easily come to that :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I'd have to think about WoK consensus
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): It's more efficient :-)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): consensus can be a long process.
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): but maybe not useful
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): not sure it's always "right," though.
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): It's always good to have a dissenting voice or two
Mickorod Renard: true
Calvino Rabeni: The thing is, individuals use the intelligence of the group without credit and without awareness, but if it goes wrong, then they say "groupthink" .. it doesn't seem like a very objective perspective
boxy (alfred.kelberry): aph, it is essential
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): a herring or two in the sardine net.
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): keeps us thinking
Calvino Rabeni: Yes Aphro
Mickorod Renard: devils advocate. he he
Calvino Rabeni: every group needs its gadfly or provocateur or jerk
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): going back to a beginner's mind
Mickorod Renard: I can be a jerk
Calvino Rabeni: every village needs its idiot
Bruce identifies with 'jerk' a lot.
Aph wonders who the jerk is here
boxy (alfred.kelberry): i think we all can be jerks :)
Calvino Rabeni: and the Fool's Guild was an honored calling
Mickorod Renard: hand raises
Bruce hides.
Calvino Rabeni: heh
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): fool=jerk?
Calvino Rabeni raises three hands
Calvino Rabeni: no fool!=jerk
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes, we're all the jerk sometimes
Calvino Rabeni: it's a learning experience, hopefully
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): May we all have a happy holiday -- however we experience that happiness.
Calvino Rabeni: or could be, if ..?
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I have to go; it's 3. Thanks so much Cal and Bruce for organizing this. When shall we meet again, In January?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): The jerk is one who can't see beyond his shoes, and the fool won't stop staring at the sky
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes, in January. I shall be in touch with everyone.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Aph :)
Wol Euler: bye aph, take care
Mickorod Renard: bye Aph,,
Mickorod Renard: c u soon
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Bye
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Bye!
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks so much Bruce for your herding
boxy (alfred.kelberry): it's important to have heated discussions, but open and respectful. yet not many can handle it.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye, Aph.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I'm going to head off, too
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and thank you, Cal, for herding us cats today.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Be well, everyone, and happy holidays :)
Calvino Rabeni: miaow!
Arisia Vita: I must run too, it has been great being with you all
Wol Euler: and I, thanks for letting me listen
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye, Violet.
Mickorod Renard: thank you to everyone, it's been fun
Calvino Rabeni: Bye everyone
Wol Euler: goodnight, take care
boxy (alfred.kelberry): *pokes woly's nose*
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I will post this chat on the wiki.
Wol Euler: heheheh
Mickorod Renard: bye anyone going
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks
Mickorod Renard: did we conclude anything?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye, Woly!
Calvino Rabeni: do you want to update the "Stim no more" statement, Bruce?
Mickorod Renard: :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Ahhhh. . . Did we conclude anything? I love that, Mick.
Calvino Rabeni: Concluding as, a brief waystation on a learning journey ..
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): The Stim-no-more statement ? . . . Bruce ponders.
boxy (alfred.kelberry): what's that?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): All I know is that since January of last year, Stim has not been active in WoK - since January 7, 2010
Calvino Rabeni: It's something to make the Kira board happy, Alfred
boxy (alfred.kelberry): "we the wokers will no longer allow Stim to join the group or in any other way affect our pure minds"?
boxy (alfred.kelberry): :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): The Kira community wishes there to be an explicit statement on the wiki - that what we're doing in WoK now is not a continuance of Stim's original focus.
boxy (alfred.kelberry): hmm, board happy?
Mickorod Renard: I am lost
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I can put that into the wiki -- no problem.
Calvino Rabeni: ok
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Stim is busy in Berkeley -- RL. And very good that he's active and serving so many there.
boxy (alfred.kelberry): me too, Mick
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Lost, Mick?
Calvino Rabeni: the WOK group originated as part of Kira, and was identified with Stim Moraine's work, and now it has a second independent life
Mickorod Renard: ok,,time for a walk
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, Cal.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I will email you, Boxy.
boxy (alfred.kelberry): ok, thank you
Mickorod Renard: ok,,time to go,,unless we are staying~?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, it has to do with Storm's being on the Kira board... and a statement they are wanting in the WoK wiki now.
boxy (alfred.kelberry): i see
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): sort of doing a quickie business thing, Mick.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): no longer a WoK session (right now. . .)
Mickorod Renard: ok
boxy (alfred.kelberry): bureaucracy :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: politics
Mickorod Renard: shall we call ourselves something else?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I can also send you the same email I send to Boxy, Mick.
Mickorod Renard: great
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): We might consider a new name - - however, that would involve starting a whole new wiki.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and I don't feel up to that at the moment.
Calvino Rabeni: if we call it something else, I think they would want the wiki to be separated completely as of 2 years ago
Calvino Rabeni: that would be work :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, I agree, Cal.
Calvino Rabeni: and lose some of the history which is nice to see
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): what a lot of unnecessary work, IMHO.
Mickorod Renard: that's true
Calvino Rabeni: yeah
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): the history is very valuable.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and the evolution of this group is also valuable.
boxy (alfred.kelberry): forking can be fun
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): forking is how it works, I suppose.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): (he said rather indecisively.)
Mickorod Renard: I look forward to the learning soon
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): me too, Mick.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I shall be off now.
Calvino Rabeni: Take care, Bruce, and thanks
boxy (alfred.kelberry): maybe routes of knowing? :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): May all have a happy and comfortable holiday!
boxy (alfred.kelberry): WoK
Mickorod Renard: bye Brucie
Calvino Rabeni: I shall be off also
Calvino Rabeni: Bye mick, boxy :)
Mickorod Renard: ok,,me too,,bye Cal, bye Boxy Bye Bruce
boxy (alfred.kelberry): bye folks
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): as shall I.
boxy (alfred.kelberry): thank you
boxy (alfred.kelberry): wait
boxy (alfred.kelberry): what's next topic?
Mickorod Renard: :)
- - - -
[Yes, what's our next topic? - - Watch your inboxes, folks!]
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