05.26.2011 - Undivided Mind

Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Arati and Sam :)
oO0Oo Resident: hello Gaya and ... oops
oO0Oo Resident: ty for the TP
Gaya Ethaniel: Atari crashed it seems ...
Gaya Ethaniel: yw :)
Gaya Ethaniel: This week's topic and report links are here - http://waysofknowing.kira.org/
oO0Oo Resident: I will reflect a bit on the article while people arrive.. kk
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: wb Atari :)
Ataraxia Azemus: Thanks :)
Ataraxia Azemus: My computer's been crashing a lot lately :\
Gaya Ethaniel: :(
Gaya Ethaniel: Maybe time to defrag etc. the boring stuff ...
oO0Oo Resident: I am experiencing a lot of lag... may need to relog
Gaya Ethaniel: ok
Ataraxia Azemus: I think it's just getting fussier with age
Ataraxia Azemus: Good luck, Sam!
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
Ataraxia Azemus: And hi Zen :)
Gaya Ethaniel: heheh
oO0Oo Resident: hi Violet [atar*]? :) hi Zen :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Then let's start when Sam is back.
Zen Arado: Hi Sam, Gaya, Violet :)
Gaya Ethaniel: wb Sam :)
Ataraxia Azemus: wb Sam :)
Zen Arado: wb Sam :)
oO0Oo Resident: ty.. please proceed while I decloud :)
Zen Arado: not many here tonight
Gaya Ethaniel: Maybe it's the season? I'm not really discouraged but ...
Ataraxia Azemus: Yes...last week was a little slow to fill up, too
Zen Arado: some left early too?
Gaya Ethaniel: That's true.
Gaya Ethaniel: mm ... hang on ... oh last week ...
Zen Arado: did someone get upset?
Gaya Ethaniel: Not upset but ...
Zen Arado: philosophical debate may not be productive for our type of discussion
Zen Arado: we are engaged in a more deep exploration I think
Ataraxia Azemus: The best way I've seen handled is to emphasize reflecting on your intent, and asking if your words match that intent or not before you submit what you have to say
Gaya Ethaniel: Some of us just say things. Do we ask such people to leave or make the workshop private?
Zen Arado: just worried it might discourage some from coming?
Zen Arado: do think that is likely?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes
Ataraxia Azemus: Hmmm...maybe this can be tied into a topic..
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes?
Zen Arado: yes
Ataraxia Azemus: Tone and how best to share our communication
Zen Arado: the difference between intuition and rational thought
Zen Arado: ah yes that too
Ataraxia Azemus: Yes
Gaya Ethaniel: I sometimes feel that some philosophers are doing something similar to contemplation.
Gaya Ethaniel: Just using different words and frameworks.
Zen Arado: it's funny but I debated philosophy for years when I was studying it but we were never allowed to use ad hominem remarks
Zen Arado: it was tantamount to admitting you had lost the debate
Gaya Ethaniel: It's just not helpful ...
Zen Arado: I agree
 oO0Oo Resident feels that when truth is sought, rather than being correct...experiences become pointers like contemplations give insights
Zen Arado: yes Sam
Ataraxia Azemus: Yes; criticized ideas can be improved, but criticized persons are wounded and respond as such
Zen Arado: pointers and insights indeed
Ataraxia Azemus: Mm
Zen Arado: exactly
Gaya Ethaniel: What I see happens sometimes is that we just want to prove right or wrong.
oO0Oo Resident nods
Gaya Ethaniel: Or wanting answers ...
oO0Oo Resident: not knowing is at times fearful
Zen Arado: I hope we are searching more deeply than that
Ataraxia Azemus: Yes
Zen Arado: yes admitting not knowing
Zen Arado: being stimulated by each others' comments
Gaya Ethaniel: OK I've thought about this many times ...
Ataraxia Azemus: Sometimes what we do know can get in the way as much as it can help at other times. too...
Zen Arado: led into new ways of seeing, knowing
Zen Arado: yes
Gaya Ethaniel: I see some teachers getting challenged by really rude, arrogant people.
Gaya Ethaniel: It never gets flamed ...
oO0Oo Resident: Violet.. could you explain that a bit further please?
Zen Arado: yes pls
Ataraxia Azemus: The obvious side is that sometimes our preconceptions about something are wrong...but there are other sides...
Ataraxia Azemus: I was having a conversation with someone a few days ago, about biology; I'm just a student myself, but I noticed that a lot of things she mentioned were....not really accurate, and I thought about how to correct her without dampening her enthusiasm for the subject
oO0Oo Resident nods
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: lots of tact needed
Gaya Ethaniel: But not everyone who we meet would be that considerate ...
Gaya Ethaniel: What do we do then?
Zen Arado: you learn ways to do it
oO0Oo Resident: thinking of Pema Pera's response to the article Bleu brought to the PaB email group
Zen Arado: teachers have to do that all the time
oO0Oo Resident: stepping outside of our sense of rightness
Zen Arado: yes Sam?
Zen Arado: yes
Ataraxia Azemus: Yes, that sounds....right :)
Zen Arado: sometimes you can just let it go
oO0Oo Resident: being curious how the differences occur
Zen Arado: unless it is important
oO0Oo Resident: and meeting the other in a roundabout.. curious way
Zen Arado: saying...'why do you think that' etc
oO0Oo Resident: yes
Gaya Ethaniel: The crux of the issue is that we can try to do that but we cannot expect or make others to do the same.
Ataraxia Azemus: Yes, it has to be done together
oO0Oo Resident: seeing the 'needs' behind the communication, or being curious about them is helpful i find
Zen Arado: 'you can lead a horse to water....
Ataraxia Azemus: Right :)
Ataraxia Azemus: I think so too, Sam
Zen Arado: yes Sam
Zen Arado: communication techniques and skills can help
oO0Oo Resident: when people feel heard and cared about, they connect
Gaya Ethaniel: That's right ...
oO0Oo Resident: and relax
oO0Oo Resident: but 'enemy images' can be so strong, that prolonged empathy is sometimes required
Zen Arado: but sometimes you get a disruptive person in a class or group who spoils the whole learning process
Zen Arado: for everyone else
Ataraxia Azemus: Yes
oO0Oo Resident nods
Zen Arado: they feed on the attention they get
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm still learning about this ... it's difficult.
oO0Oo Resident: that 'spoiling' is a 'please help me' in disguise
Ataraxia Azemus: I think the best way to deal with things like that is lightness; to make as little fuss about it, but also to be able to be firm about some things
Zen Arado: yes maybe
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes we shouldn't feed it ...
Ataraxia Azemus: Hello Outlaw :)
i0utlaw Resident: hey
Zen Arado: Hi iOutlaw
Zen Arado: important not to get drawn to their level
Zen Arado: if it is abusive argumentation
oO0Oo Resident: discovering the unmet needs that give voice to disruption.. often pacifies something
Zen Arado: yes though we may not practically have a way to that easily
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, often I think these kinds of situation offer us opportunities to practice in life so to speak.
Ataraxia Azemus: I think so, too....but there are people for whom disruption is the point, sometimes
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm not talking about forever enduring the insults etc. but it's not always 'bad'.
Zen Arado: it's hard to discuss things with someone with fixed views too
Ataraxia Azemus: Sometimes it is just a clash of styles....and we're better off listening than holding onto our POV
Zen Arado: their views are non negotiable sometimes
oO0Oo Resident: are you so sure Zen ;)
Gaya Ethaniel: After all, don't we practice so that we 'function' better in life?
Ataraxia Azemus: Yes
Zen Arado: I hope mine aren't too fixed
oO0Oo Resident: :) hehehe
Zen Arado: we have blind spots about ourselves
oO0Oo Resident: "function better" Gaya?
Zen Arado: and don't like it when others point them out
Ataraxia Azemus: That's true...I think a lot of fixed points of view are like reflexes
Gaya Ethaniel: I see both sides ... those being offended and those who are being kind of offensive ... tricky.
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, kind of really live life.
Zen Arado: we can get good at manipulating , tricking people into adopting our viewpoint
Zen Arado: because it reassures us we are right
Zen Arado: dropping is hard to do
oO0Oo Resident: agreed .. "reflexes" to habitually unmet needs
Ataraxia Azemus: Maybe it helps to look at why we hold our views...
Zen Arado: yes
Ataraxia Azemus: If they help us meet our needs, or if they hurt us
Zen Arado: and cling so strongly
Zen Arado: or are we ready to let go of them
Zen Arado: they comfort us maybe
Zen Arado: 'comfortably numb'
Gaya Ethaniel: Until poked :P
Zen Arado: it's about fear isn't it?
oO0Oo Resident: and hope
oO0Oo Resident: and ignorance
Zen Arado: so maybe we need people who really challenge us now and then
Ataraxia Azemus: I think a lot of the views I've held onto are really emotional reactions, with ideas wrapped around them....if I listen to the emotions but don't become overwhelmed by them, I get a better idea of what's going on there, I think
Zen Arado: remembers the Gurdjieff story
Ataraxia Azemus: "Anyone who annoys you is showing you a part of yourself to work on?" :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
oO0Oo Resident: agreed violet
Zen Arado: yeh David Hume said that reason is and should be the slave of the passions
Zen Arado: yes that is true too Violet
oO0Oo Resident: Gurdjieff story Zen?
Zen Arado: ah about a man at a retreat who never stopped complaining and annoying everyone
oO0Oo Resident: :)
Zen Arado: finally he declared he had had enough and left
Zen Arado: everyone breathed a sigh of relief
Zen Arado: but the man in charge sent someone to bring him back
Zen Arado: cos they were learning more that way :)
Ataraxia Azemus: hehe
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
oO0Oo Resident: so we could be grateful for the hard challenging things that arise
Zen Arado: yes
oO0Oo Resident: without which...
Zen Arado: or even seek them out
oO0Oo Resident: lean in gently?
Zen Arado: yeh carefully :)
oO0Oo Resident: lean in to the sharp points
Zen Arado: but we might have to abandon our safety net
oO0Oo Resident: bravery.. willingness
Zen Arado: be prepared to face the unknown
Ataraxia Azemus: Sometimes the risk to remain bound in a bud is greater than the risk it takes to bloom
Zen Arado: yes
Gaya Ethaniel: Don’t wish for practice without hindrances. If there is no hindrance in practice, it is not possible to strengthen one’s resolve. Therefore the sage said, “Befriend Mara’s Army to assist practice.”
Gaya Ethaniel: From a report I wrote a while ago ...
Gaya Ethaniel: This is a common theme in Buddhist texts.
Zen Arado: yes great Gaya
oO0Oo Resident nods Gaya
Ataraxia Azemus: Mm
Zen Arado: it is
Zen Arado: how easily we forget :)
Zen Arado: I do anyway
Gaya Ethaniel: It's us who sees Mara's Army though ...
oO0Oo Resident: the energy to hold the bud closed.. is the energy that would otherwise be that of living.. thus we kind of die.. holding our 'selves' together
Zen Arado: yes great
Gaya Ethaniel: :(
Ataraxia Azemus: Yes, Sam
Zen Arado: we close our hearts too sometimes
Zen Arado: in case we get hurt
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ... that's always an interesting one to look at.
oO0Oo Resident: tremendous tenderness.. our nature.. so poignant, like having no skin
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, very sensitive ...
Zen Arado: yes
Ataraxia Azemus: Yes
Zen Arado: if we dare to reveal it
oO0Oo Resident: it's choiceless
Gaya Ethaniel: I don't know, want my immunity on peak level first.
Zen Arado: it is Sam?
Gaya Ethaniel: I think so.
Ataraxia Azemus: A little bit of contact is best for immunity :)
Gaya Ethaniel giggles.
Zen Arado: but don't we add protective layers?
Zen Arado: of rationalization etc?
Zen Arado: yes
oO0Oo Resident: this begins to 'touch' into the article
Ataraxia Azemus: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Maybe we can continue next week :)
Zen Arado: yeh it's about opening to seeing too
Zen Arado: sure if yu want
oO0Oo Resident: the 'i's that inter-are.. feeling separate.. wanting therapeutic practice
Gaya Ethaniel: I think that article has many threads.
Gaya Ethaniel: hm ...
oO0Oo Resident: yes.. many threads
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, that does make sense Sam.
Ataraxia Azemus: Yes...the thread that really caught me was emphasizing the sacred in the moment, not as something separate
Gaya Ethaniel: That who feels the lack and needs.
Zen Arado: yeh the separating tendency
oO0Oo Resident: _/\_
Gaya Ethaniel: We should pick up from that then Atari :)
Ataraxia Azemus: That works for me :)
Zen Arado: yes
oO0Oo Resident: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks for coming again and see you next week.
Zen Arado: yes ty all
oO0Oo Resident: thank you
Ataraxia Azemus: Thanks for hosting, Gaya. Take care, everyone :)
Ataraxia Azemus: Be well, everyone :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks you too :)
oO0Oo Resident: u2 Violet
Zen Arado: bye