02.10.2011 - Anger

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    Avy Runner: hey Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Avy :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mitsu :)
    Avy Runner: hi Mitsu :)
    Mitsu Ishii: hi
    Avy Runner: what do you both think of Egypt ?
    Avy Runner: hi Xeno :)
    Xeno Octavia: hi All
    Gaya Ethaniel: I've only known a few Egyptians through previous work ... can't say I know much.
    Agatha Macbeth: Ello ello ello
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Agatha and Xeno :)
    Avy Runner: k
    Avy Runner: hi Agatha :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick :)
    Avy Runner: hi Mick :)
    Mitsu Ishii: It's very dramatic. too bad Mubarak isn't stepping down.
    Agatha Macbeth: /me waves to Mick
    Mickorod Renard: coooiiii
    Avy Runner: no, he persists
    Mickorod Renard: Hi folks
    Avy Runner: I wonder how the army will react now
    Xeno Octavia: replace him with a pharoah!?
    Agatha Macbeth: Could do worse
    Avy Runner: it's already said of him he's the last pharoah :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Or the first eunuch
    Avy Runner: pharaoh
    Xeno Octavia: nah they sed that of king farook
    Xeno Octavia: bring bak egypti book of dead
    Xeno Octavia: bring bak the ole egypty gods and Godesses
    Avy Runner: hi Cal :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Cal :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Thought Crowley did that
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Cal
    Mickorod Renard: Hi cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Lego Kid and everyone :)
    Avy Runner: hmmmmm
    Avy Runner: /me smiles, likes that name :)
    Avy Runner: /me feels like a kid :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Somehow I can't see the wiki ... anyone can see it online?
    Avy Runner: hi Bruce
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Bruce :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hi, everyone.
    Agatha Macbeth: Brucie
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Bruce
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): sry to be so late. . . we had quite an intense session at the pavilion today...
    Agatha Macbeth: No wonder you're sweating
    Gaya Ethaniel: np
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me pants.
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... maybe the wiki server is down ...
    Agatha Macbeth: /me looks at Bruce's pants
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): So . . . regarding anger. . .
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ?
    Xeno Octavia: anger really pisses me off --good i dont get it!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Anyone can see the wiki online live now?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Give us a wee link, please....
    Xeno Octavia: i dont but am in-coputer-itent
    Gaya Ethaniel: http://waysofknowing.kira.org/
    Avy Runner: I get a message, can't find the server
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ty.
    Avy Runner: i'ts probably down
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yeppers. . . same error msg for me.
    Xeno Octavia: maybe it leaked and they caught it
    Gaya Ethaniel: Last time I saw 5 reports on it. Hope you all got to read them before coming here.
    Agatha Macbeth: The website you are looking for may no longer exist, have been moved, or is temporarily unavailable.
    Agatha Macbeth: Unquote
    Xeno Octavia: lol comp talk
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hi, Zen. Hi, Dao.
    Avy Runner: hi Dao
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ... seems to be problems with the wiki ... anyway.
    Avy Runner: hi Zen
    Agatha Macbeth: Bejasus Zen
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Dao and Zen :)
    Agatha Macbeth: And Dao
    Dao Yheng: Hi all :)
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi All :)
    Dao Yheng: so we are having trouble with the wiki?
    Xeno Octavia: i think it leaked!
    Dao Yheng: I seem to have access, would it help to try a subpage or two?
    Dao Yheng: http://waysofknowing.kira.org/3Reports/Zen_Arado/Report_82
    Avy Runner: huh? tried that also
    Dao Yheng: Here's Zen's report
    Dao Yheng: Anger
     "If it gets to the point where I’m “dealing” with anger, it’s too late. It’s like the guy who’s entered a golf tournament and he’s practicing and the old pro comes along and says, “If you haven’t got it by now, you’re not going to get it before the tournament’s over.” It’s the same with getting angry. By the time the reactive process is underway, it’s too late. By practicing meditation and doing mind training, we can avoid being caught up in the reactivity of anger and can stay present."
     Ken McLeod
     Anger takes many forms from irritability to rage and jealousy. It is a feeling inside produced by thoughts. I remember reading somewhere that its basis is a feeling of having been hurt - the anger is often a reaction to something hurtful someone has said or done to us. Or events in life didn't go the way we wanted them to.
     Since I have been thinking lately about roles, anger seems often caused by someone threatening a role we play by not reciprocating, by not playing
    Dao Yheng: ...by not playing their counter-role that complements ours, properly. Our spouses, girl/boyfiends, children, parents, bosses, don't treat us with the respect we think our role deserves.
     My way of working with this is to immediately identify the sensation of anger itself, investigating the feeling in my body. Where is it? How does it feel? Is it still there? - rather than stay in my mind churning and magnifying the thoughts that in turn will strengthen the feelings. Tonglen practice also helps here. It's best to open to the feeling too, to stay with it if possible and not try to avoid or repress it. That only saves it up for a re-appearance at another time. Some teachers advise reliving angry incidents later in meditation if we haven't had time to investigate the feelings involved because of time pressure in real life.
     I do find in my own life that I have developed lots more equanimity through my meditation practice, and anger does not affect me nearly as much nowadays. It can be interesting in a way to
    Dao Yheng: ...to notice and investigate what triggers angry thoughts when you have the capacity not to be carried away by them..
    Dao Yheng: sorry, not sure if that's helpful or not :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks Dao, it's helpful :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ty, Dao.
    Dao Yheng: I did really enjoy reading your report this week, Zen, so there's a hidden agenda there :)
    Zen (zen.arado): ty Dao
    Zen (zen.arado): not sure resurrecting anger is the right way to go myself
    Zen (zen.arado): but...
    Zen (zen.arado): usually in RL we don't have time to work with these things
    Zen (zen.arado): and just bury the anger
    Dao Yheng: yes, that's an interesting experiment -- resurrecting anger in such a way that it doesn't just take over your emotions again
    Avy Runner: /me nods
    Zen (zen.arado): maybe that is the point though
    Xeno Octavia: for me anger is solved by self-responsibility --where else is it then anger at self
    Zen (zen.arado): to have time to stay with the emotions
    Avy Runner: how does that work for you Xeno, I mean what precisely is it you mean
    Xeno Octavia: emotions are avoiding the feeling
    Zen (zen.arado): not sure of distinction between emotions and feelings?
    Zen (zen.arado): Xeno?
    Xeno Octavia: i mean if i get angry [when used to] i would find out why I'm angry rather than other making so --then i see its my choice and so throw away
    Zen (zen.arado): aren't they the same thing?
    Zen (zen.arado): 'why' can be difficult
    Xeno Octavia: emotions are the avoidance of feeling --runs away from ore rounds around but doesnt allow getting into
    Avy Runner: hmmmm, I'm afraid sometimes my anger doesn't get away that easily.....
    Zen (zen.arado): you might need to uncover a lot of stuff?
    Dao Yheng: I think there's a difference between waiting for that outside factor to change, and deciding for yourself to forgive or find another way...
    Zen (zen.arado): agree Dao
    Zen (zen.arado): taking responsibility as Xeno said
    Xeno Octavia: where i s ur anger [an energy] directed
    Avy Runner: emotions seems to be felt higher up in the body, disconnected from grounding, where feelings are more grounded, that is to me
    Dao Yheng: maybe that's part of the "taking responsibility"
    Zen (zen.arado): instead of blaming others
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me agrees with Ken McLeod that the time to "deal" with anger is before you feel it . . .
    Zen (zen.arado): and life in general
    Dao Yheng: Avy, yes, I've noticed that myself
    Agatha Macbeth: /me agrees with Bruce
    Zen (zen.arado): yes...from our daily practice
    Dao Yheng: I actually didn't totally agree with Ken M though :)
    Dao Yheng: even after we get angry, there's still a chance
    Xeno Octavia: feelings are natural --- emotions manufactured culturally
    Zen (zen.arado): hmmm...ok Xeno
    Dao Yheng: otherwise, wouldn't it continue on forever, just growing and growing?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): sure, there is always a chance. . .
    Avy Runner: yes, like becoming aware of it is the first step, first that 'follows' the anger
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): "By the time the reactive process is underway, it’s too late. By practicing meditation and doing mind training, we can avoid being caught up in the reactivity of anger and can stay present."
    Xeno Octavia: ken got it wrong since emotions [anger are unconscious response to feelings
    Zen (zen.arado): yes..it's seeing the reactivity rather than being carried away isn't it?
    Xeno Octavia: hi Atari
    Zen (zen.arado): so we bring this unconsciousness to light?
    Xeno Octavia: great skirt
    Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Xeno :) hi everyone
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Atari
    Avy Runner: hi Atara
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Atari
    Ataraxia Azemus: Thanks :)
    Zen (zen.arado): me thinks it important to go to the feeling and get out of the mind
    Zen (zen.arado): rather than feed the mind
    Zen (zen.arado): with more fuel
    Avy Runner: to me it's a process of starting to learn to understand the triggers, the patterns that might lead to anger and to me it starts with awareness and the choice to be responsible for your own anger
    Dao Yheng: yes, the dubious role that thoughts play :)
    Xeno Octavia: feelings more heart than mind
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Zen (zen.arado): but noticing the associated bodily feeling
    Avy Runner: and feelings are a part of that yes
    Zen (zen.arado): where do you get angry?
    Zen (zen.arado): I geta sick feeling in my stomach
    Xeno Octavia: if i do i do in instinct and kill : ))
    Dao Yheng: :))
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I feel it in my shoulders and upper chest . . . as if getting ready to slug someone -- which I've never done in my entire life.
    Avy Runner: that's interesting Xeno, anger as method to survive......
    Avy Runner: maybe it's not the anger we try to understand
    Xeno Octavia: i only mite do that in FL and usually ban 1st
    Avy Runner: but the anger that isn't beneficial
    Zen (zen.arado): maybe I haven't uncovered all the sensations yet
    Ataraxia Azemus: Yes, it's okay to be angry; it's a problem when it becomes a habitual response to anything new, or an act of total destruction
    Xeno Octavia: anger is energy and if u waste it u are losing its value
    Zen (zen.arado): or is that too analytical?
    Zen (zen.arado): yes there is energizing righteous energy
    Xeno Octavia: wrathful Buddhas
    Avy Runner: right :)
    Zen (zen.arado): it's when anger is because of an inured slf image that is harmful?
    Xeno Octavia: the obverse of all peaceful Buddhas
    Avy Runner: I don't know if there wrathful btw, but they sure look angry :)
    Ataraxia Azemus: The thing not to do with anger is act in a way that perpetuates suffering
    Zen (zen.arado): yes Atari
    Agatha Macbeth: /me never met a wrathful Buddha
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Xeno Octavia: yes w2hy i say 'kill'
    Zen (zen.arado): for ourselves or others
    Mitsu Ishii: Buddhas can certainly be wrathful
    Zen (zen.arado): anger usually harms ourselves
    Avy Runner: suffering as in not beneficial
    Agatha Macbeth: Oops
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Anger seems to be an indicator of unrevolved shadow material. . .
    Xeno Octavia: thats cause ur too nice Aga
    Zen (zen.arado): :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Awww
    Ataraxia Azemus: Yes; but I think sometimes it's a necessary response...as long as it's temporary
    Ataraxia Azemus: Aw :)
    Zen (zen.arado): controlled anger?
    Agatha Macbeth: Aww x 2
    Zen (zen.arado): cold fury?
    Avy Runner: 'shadow', nice......
    Zen (zen.arado): :)
    Mitsu Ishii: this is a longstanding debate within Buddhism
    Mitsu Ishii: whether the goal is some sort of suppression of emotion, or whether it is something different
    Xeno Octavia: wrathful Buddhas are when the peaceful been too long ignored when they are warning
    Zen (zen.arado): me thinks supression is bad
    Ataraxia Azemus: Maybe not even controlled...but if we feel it, in a crisis, I think it's better to feel with it; to be aware of it, and not to just give into it unconsciously, but to keep it close, as something that is happening to you
    Avy Runner: don't know about that Xeno
    Mitsu Ishii: the tantric and vajrayana (higher) teachings tend to view it differently, where one doesn't get rid of emotion, anger, etc., but rather see it in a more direct way so it has a different effect in the world
    Xeno Octavia: keeps the FIRE going
    Faery Serendipity: wrathful buddha seems like an oxymoron..this is interesting
    Agatha Macbeth: /me nods
    Xeno Octavia: yes Mitsu
    Ataraxia Azemus: Yes, Mitsu :)
    Zen (zen.arado): use it yo mean?
    Xeno Octavia: how so Faery
    Avy Runner: that sounds like Mahayana Mitsu, Vayrayana is a technique to transform
    Zen (zen.arado): transform it into something else?
    Mitsu Ishii: wrathful deities in Buddhism: http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhis...ul_deities.htm
    Avy Runner: or in understanding, dont' know yet
    Avy Runner: it passes duality.......
    Xeno Octavia: vajra is magic dzogchen is play : ))
    Ataraxia Azemus: I think sometimes anger does give us an opportunity to see beyond ourselves, even if that's painful; but sometimes we need anger to hold ourselves together...it's like an emotional immune response
    Dao Yheng: The seeing itself is the transformation, it seems
    Agatha Macbeth: WB Zen
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): wb, Zen.
    Ataraxia Azemus: wb Zen :)
    Xeno Octavia: hi Zen Again
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Powerful insight, Dao.
    Zen (zen.arado): every time I click on a link I crash :(
    Avy Runner: yes, might be so Dao
    Agatha Macbeth: Don't do it then ;-)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me suggests Zen get more RAM memory for his computer.
    Zen (zen.arado): ha ha Aga - Tommy Cooperism
    Xeno Octavia: is ok Zen 0---just dont get angry at the links
    Avy Runner: still working on it :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Just like that
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
    Zen (zen.arado): have 4 gb
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): whoa!
    Ataraxia Azemus: hehe
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Zen :p
    Zen (zen.arado): :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Sue your ISP.
    Zen (zen.arado): don't give me any more links
    Zen (zen.arado): :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Zat's it Zen...
    Avy Runner: /me is trying to find a link.........
    Agatha Macbeth: Don't click on it!
    Avy Runner: a good one, Zen is probably to click on :)
    Avy Runner: no Zen, I like you here .......
    Zen (zen.arado): the wrathful deities got me
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me ponders: If we truly SEE the emotion, that releases it from reactivity and frees us from the suffering it provokes.
    Dao Yheng: yes, it's a real fight!! To click or not to click!
    Avy Runner: hehehe
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Xeno Octavia: if we see th eemotion is BS
    Dao Yheng: but then Bruce gives away the answer
    Agatha Macbeth: Maybe it's a wrathful ISP
    Avy Runner: (thanks Bruce for gettigng us back)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): say more, Xeno, please.
    Ataraxia Azemus: /me has a wrathful ISP...not fun
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Xeno Octavia: if we see thru emotion and recognize the causing feeling we are freed
    Avy Runner: BS, ISP?
    Xeno Octavia: at least from that emotion
    Zen (zen.arado): well I notice the feeling
    Zen (zen.arado): and find that very helpful
    Xeno Octavia: emotion is response to feeling anger not a real feeling but a responsive emotion
    Zen (zen.arado): I don't get as angry as I usd to
    Zen (zen.arado): is that other's experience
    Zen (zen.arado): ?
    Ataraxia Azemus: But. I think so, Bruce...what could cause harm is feeling the emotion, and beginning to respond reflexively...it's better to keep conscious responsibility for our actions, as tempting as it may be not to.
    Agatha Macbeth: We calm down as we get older
    Zen (zen.arado): thanks Aga :(
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me should be VERY calm by now.
    Dao Yheng: :))
    Agatha Macbeth: I can never work out if it's experience or fatigue...
    Zen (zen.arado): so that's why :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: hehe
    Zen (zen.arado): well if you are older you have ben through the emotions so many times you SHOULD wise up
    Agatha Macbeth: True
    Xeno Octavia: actually Atari fearing feeling the emotion is how authentic feelings are avoided
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Mubarak (Egypt) is 82 years old -- and still gets quite angry. . .
    Zen (zen.arado): but there's no fool like an old fool
    Mitsu Ishii: haha
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
    Dao Yheng: seems it can go either way -- wise up, or get into a rut
    Avy Runner: right Dao
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me feels that citing age as an excuse for anything is a cop-out.
    Zen (zen.arado): what about the hurt feeling that produces anger?
    Ataraxia Azemus: Mm
    Zen (zen.arado): nobody mentioned that
    Zen (zen.arado): is that true?
    Xeno Octavia: hurt also emotion not feeling
    Xeno Octavia: emotional hurt rathern physical hurt
    Zen (zen.arado): thought the feeling preceded the emotion
    Avy Runner: (somebody thumbed me out of my chair....)
    Zen (zen.arado): I feel feelings
    Agatha Macbeth: /me wipes her hand
    Zen (zen.arado): do I feel emotions?
    Zen (zen.arado): getting confused
    Zen (zen.arado): words again
    Agatha Macbeth: It's only words
    Xeno Octavia: u can illusion them [emotions] as feelings --but they still not
    Zen (zen.arado): so feelings are the genuine feeling?
    Zen (zen.arado): emotions are thought states?
    Xeno Octavia: u live in a culture doesnt make a clear distinction
    Zen (zen.arado): I knbow - I didn't
    Xeno Octavia: feelings are natural experience that may have had upsetting effects earlier in ur life --so u rtend to avoid them
    Zen (zen.arado): an emotion is more of a general description of the state produced by the mind?
    Calvino Rabeni: we live in a culture that fears anger (for some good reason) and doesn't know how to work with it, other than mostly labeling it problematical
    Zen (zen.arado): whereas feeling is the actual sensation in the body?
    Avy Runner: I have no idea what feelings are, but they seem to guide me better then emotions
    Zen (zen.arado): yes to both
    Avy Runner: seeing feelings is making me open up to myself
    Xeno Octavia: minds equivalent to emotions is intellectual ideas which are clung to why meditation is to not get caught in menatal thoghts
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Zen (zen.arado): that lead to feelings
    Ataraxia Azemus: I think that's true of a lot of states of mind and heart, Calvino...we live in a culture that wants to be happy all the time. We forget how to appreciate other facets of life.
    Avy Runner: emotions are doing the opposite, they seem to travel between brains and the higher part of our body, bounding back all the time
    Zen (zen.arado): and spiral back to thoughts
    Xeno Octavia: yes feelings like water a flow of thoghts
    Zen (zen.arado): and they reinforce each other
    Zen (zen.arado): so we break the chain
    Xeno Octavia: we dont think feelings just washed over by them
    Gaya Ethaniel: We are almost at the end of the hour.
    Avy Runner: somebody showed me to be physically in my head, which is a quite different experience
    Xeno Octavia: how so Avy
    Gaya Ethaniel: I know there are already a few homework idea pages on wiki. But I'd like to suggest as per the email we discuss on forum more on future topics.
    Avy Runner: being in your head is not at all bad, it is part of the body, as such it has a grounding effect, thoughts however can take us out of our body
    Xeno Octavia: sounds kool Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Perhaps people can post some ideas and start comment/discuss?
    Zen (zen.arado): ok Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: [please IM me your email if you are not on wiki/Google email/forum]
    Ataraxia Azemus: I should be going...sorry I missed the first part, but I'll try not to lose my temper about it :)
    Dao Yheng: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: This way we can devote the whole hour on Thursday for discussion :)
    Zen (zen.arado): :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Grr
    Ataraxia Azemus: Take care, everyone :)
    Zen (zen.arado): bye Atari
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Atari take care
    Xeno Octavia: was a kool meet --no angRAWR
    Dao Yheng: Thanks Atari!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Atari :)
    Xeno Octavia: nite Atari
    Zen (zen.arado): we're pretty cool Xeno
    Zen (zen.arado): :)
    Mickorod Renard: bye Atari
    Gaya Ethaniel: OK let's give the forum a spin over the next week. Thanks everyone :)
    Zen (zen.arado): so we don't need a topic atm?
    Avy Runner: bye everyone that leaves
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks everyone :)
    Xeno Octavia: yes bye all an i goes too : ))
    Mitsu Ishii: bye
    Zen (zen.arado): thanks all
    Gaya Ethaniel: I will post some more from wiki on forum Zen. Hopefully we start talking about it and decide before next week.
    Zen (zen.arado): ok
    Avy Runner: /me is trying to say goodbye but as always, needs some time :)
    Zen (zen.arado): beddy byes time
    Mickorod Renard: bye zen
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Going again Zen?
    Avy Runner: bye Zen :)
    Zen (zen.arado): thanks for discussion
    Faery Serendipity: thanks
    Zen (zen.arado): off again
    Agatha Macbeth: Aww
    Zen (zen.arado): but no links pressed
    Agatha Macbeth: :p
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Faery Serendipity: how often do you meet?
    Gaya Ethaniel: We meet here once a week 2 pm SLT on Thursdays.
    Faery Serendipity: Nice, thank you
    Gaya Ethaniel: yw
    Mickorod Renard: thank you all for the in depth chat
    Gaya Ethaniel: See you next week :)

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