11.03.2011 - Wither WoK?

Ways of Knowing Session -- November 3, 2011, 2 p.m. slt

 

"Wither WoK?"

 

Bruce: Hey, Pila!

Bruce: Always good to see you.

Pila Mulligan: nice to see you also

Pila Mulligan: hi Aph

Pila Mulligan: how are you Aph?

Bruce: Hey, Aph!

Aphrodite Macbain: Hi you two! Good to see you both

Bruce: ;-)

Aphrodite Macbain: Wol is on her way I believe

Pila Mulligan: hi Wol

Bruce: Hey, Wol!

Wol Euler: evening Bruce, Pila

Aphrodite Macbain: So we are going to talk about the future of WOK today?

Pila Mulligan: sounds like a plan

Bruce: yeppers.

Aphrodite Macbain: Bruce- you look so different today. You have completely changed!

Bruce: Only my clothes.

Aphrodite Macbain: Oh- your head looks different too

Bruce: I'm wearing my LOST outfit. . . sort of symbolic of how I feel at the moment.

Bruce: My head?

Aphrodite Macbain: aww

Bruce checks out his head. . .

Aphrodite Macbain: maybe your head is lost too

Wol Euler checks out Bruce's head

Pila Mulligan: looks for his bearings

Aphrodite Macbain: could be my new graphics card

Bruce: Perhaps you're referring to my sunglasses?

Wol Euler: looks kinda Bruce-like to me

Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps that's it

Bruce: No question about the LOST-titude of my head.

Bruce: As of yesterday, I have a whole new computer. . .

Aphrodite Macbain: If no one comes today, should we assume no one cares about Wok?

Bruce: so I'm sort of amazed that I even got into SL today.

Pila Mulligan: not necessarily

Aphrodite Macbain: yayy,. does that mean you can hear voice Bruce?

Wol Euler cheers!

Bruce: nope -- still the old slow satellite connection -- and now it's raining here. . .

Bruce: no voice -- and maybe even no connection (soon)

Aphrodite Macbain: because of the rain?

Pila Mulligan: yep, mine is down to 200 kbs in the rain

Pila Mulligan: cell modem

Bruce: Yes, if it is too overcast, the satellite signals can't make it through.

Pila Mulligan: probably worse with satellite

Bruce: ;-)

Aphrodite Macbain: ah - you had this problem last night too Pila.

Bruce: humbling.

Pila Mulligan: :)

Bruce: I agree that "not necessarily" about whether folks show up today. . .

Wol Euler: yep

Aphrodite Macbain: we still don't control the weather

Pila Mulligan: or schedules

Wol Euler remembers how few came to PaB an hour ago

Aphrodite Macbain: yes- something about Thursdays?

Aphrodite Macbain: November?

Aphrodite Macbain: the third of the month?

Pila Mulligan: well four is a quorum for some purposes

Bruce: Something about . . . . yes, the third of the month. THAT's it!

Aphrodite Macbain: You had a great discussion last week - I read

Bruce: Cal might be along later. . . He's sometimes late.

Bruce: Yes, it was really gentle and nice, Aph.

Bruce: Sorry that you had to miss it.

Aphrodite Macbain: many poems read

Aphrodite Macbain: me too

Bruce: Oh yes. wonderful poetry.

Bruce: (too)

Aphrodite Macbain: I was visiting the Chagall exhibition at the Art Gallery of Ontario

Aphrodite Macbain: also wonderful

Bruce: OHHHH!!!!!!! wow!!!! I am so envious.

Aphrodite Macbain: Interesting, long, life he lead

Wol Euler: ah :)

Aphrodite Macbain: and the AGO is a beautiful building-another Frank Gehry

Aphrodite Macbain: Cal is on line

Bruce: good.

Aphrodite Macbain: Is he still at his mother's place?

Bruce: He's still in Ashland, Oregon. . .

Aphrodite Macbain: right. What is Ashland like?

Bruce: where they have the Shakespeare Festival.

Pila Mulligan: hi Cal

Aphrodite Macbain: ah really?

Bruce: It is beautiful.

Aphrodite Macbain: should google it

Bruce: Hey, Cal!

Aphrodite Macbain: Hi cal

Wol Euler: hello cal

Calvino Rabeni: Hello bruce, pila, aphro, wol :)

Bruce: Well, then . . .

Bruce: I am been nostalgically reading some of the WoK discussions from 2010 and 2011.

Bruce: http://waysofknowing.kira.org/Discussions_2010

Pila Mulligan: what are some of your impressions, Bruce?

Bruce: Well, I feel that I'd like to participate in such discussions . . .

Pila Mulligan: can we get Stim to come back for a year?

Bruce: but that also takes some commitment. . . for a few others. . . who are willing to do "homework" and show up.

Aphrodite Macbain: participate as opposed to facilitate?

Bruce: I spoke with Stim, and he seems to be very busy with current events at the monastery.

Wol Euler nods.

Pila Mulligan: ahh

Wol Euler: my impression from Halifax is that he has little time for SL, now or in the near future

Pila Mulligan: ok

Aphrodite Macbain: I don't think I've ever met him here

Bruce: yes, agreed, Wol.

Bruce: same impression.

Bruce: But you raise a very important question. . .

Aphrodite Macbain: yes?

Bruce: When WoK first began, it was mainly about contemplative knowing.

Bruce: and there were many wonderful sessions.

Pila Mulligan: hi druth

Bruce: I feel that it would be good to note the evolution of WoK through the years.

Bruce: Hey, druth!

druth Vlodovic: hi all

Aphrodite Macbain: Hello druth!!

Calvino Rabeni: Hi Druth

Calvino Rabeni: it would be interesting to have your perspective about how it evolved

Calvino Rabeni: or to discuss that

Bruce: Well, that's why I was looking at the discussions from 2010 and 2011.

Calvino Rabeni: which relates to the question of what is meant by contemplative knowing

Bruce: http://waysofknowing.kira.org/Discussions_2011

Bruce: indeed, Cal.

Wol Euler: hello druth (sorry, distracted)

druth Vlodovic: hi wol

Aphrodite Macbain: brb

Bruce: to see how WoK has evolved. . .

Bruce: I'll be rather frank now. . .

Bruce: I can glean a whole lot from earlier discussions. . . ones that happened before I came on board.

Bruce: I would love to revisit some of those topics.

Bruce: but I can also understand why most folks might not want to do that.

Bruce: also, there are now some sub-groups. . .

Calvino Rabeni: care to name some that stand out?

Bruce: I always love the arts. . .

Bruce: poetry. . . beauty . . .

Aphrodite Macbain: me too

Calvino Rabeni: :)

Bruce: but virtually any experience can be a vehicle for knowing -- or at least for feelings that we know.

Aphrodite Macbain: yes - I was thinking that we could identify key themes

Bruce: Yes, Aph...

Aphrodite Macbain: then some of us could take on the responsibility of organizing a discussion around them

Bruce: The discussions of previous years have identified many themes.... and we could continue with those themes that interest us . . .

Aphrodite Macbain: and I also suggest we meet every 2 weeks to allow time for preparation and avoid burn out

Bruce: although some of us are now involved with specific subgroups (Original Face, I Ching, Reality, Dream Circle). . . that also deal with many of those themes.

Calvino Rabeni: It's true, any good topic is worth a month, a year or a lifetime

Wol Euler: Wol Euler nods.

Bruce: Aph has made an important suggestion. . .

Aphrodite Macbain: I have no problem with revisiting some of the earlier themes. I am sure the discussions were not exhaustive

Bruce: The reports and essays written by Cal, Pila and many others are especially fine to read.

Aphrodite Macbain: Are you suggesting we ALSO continue to write reports on each discussion or theme?

Bruce: Just remembered the 99-Days Project -- another way of knowing.

Aphrodite Macbain: we have many ways of knowing in PAB

Bruce: nope, I'm not suggesting that, Aph -- but if individuals want to do that and to share what they are thinking that way --- wonderful!

druth Vlodovic: we could pick another group and use it as a topic lol

Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps we need to identify what we are already doing and what is missing

Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain smiles at druth

Calvino Rabeni: Kira and PaB have spawned a variety of experiments .. we used to have a scribe project to get some reflection on those experiments ... it would be great if some reflective assessment could happen on what is being learned from that variety

Aphrodite Macbain: For instance, it might be interesting to look at how we learn

Calvino Rabeni: I'm not suggesting it as a WoK topic though

Aphrodite Macbain: brb

Calvino Rabeni: but yes

Calvino Rabeni: personal learning styles is a good topic

Bruce: Indeed, Cal . . . so many "experiments" . . .

Bruce is wondering if folks are now more dedicated to their specific sub-groups . . . more so than WoK.

Pila Mulligan: I am -- but WoK is second

druth Vlodovic: more subgroups would mean more activities, it is natural that there would be less participation in each

Bruce: ;-)

Pila Mulligan: yes druth

Bruce: When WoK first began, the "knowing" was all about contemplation . . . Now we've branched out into a multitude of non-contemplative topics.

Calvino Rabeni: What topic is non-contemplative?

Pila Mulligan: it either more valuable?

Bruce: That is FINE with me --- and I enjoy that very much. . .

Aphrodite Macbain: back

Pila Mulligan: wb Aph

Bruce: but I'm wondering whether "loyalty" to original principles is in question. . . especially by the founders of this group -- who never come any more.

Pila Mulligan: probably not

Pila Mulligan: I think Stim was the draw of the previous group

Calvino Rabeni: Good question ... if so, why?

druth Vlodovic: maybe they refined their principles and made a sub group

Aphrodite Macbain: I think the sub groups can inform the themes for WOK. For instance the creative stuff in the theatre and the dome can inform how we learn being creative

Calvino Rabeni: Stim was a draw, and also "carried" the group

Pila Mulligan: I think the remnants tried to hold on to his inspiration, and did as well as they could

Bruce: I think so, druth. - - - several sub-groups, actually.

Aphrodite Macbain: If we change the original principles of WOK we need to get permission from Kira

Bruce: Yes, Aph. I thought that too.

Aphrodite Macbain: I don't see how we would be changing the original principles however

Pila Mulligan: we are considering what the substance and procedure of WoK should be going forward

Calvino Rabeni: If not loyalty to the founders, what about the question of whether we (one) values their founding ideas? That they might still be worth pursuing.

Pila Mulligan: not looking backward as a dependent

Bruce: and I have always been a bit in the dark about Kira and PaB -- the connections between them . . . and which is which?

Pila Mulligan: Kira is the parent, Bruce

Calvino Rabeni: The ideas may have some relevance from "who here now" forward

druth Vlodovic: what are the founding ideas?

Aphrodite Macbain: KIRA spawned PaB I believe

Pila Mulligan: PaB came under its wing in course

Bruce: kk, thanks.

Pila Mulligan: Pema is both

Aphrodite Macbain: The catalyst

Bruce: yes, I knew that Pema was the founder of both.

Pila Mulligan: Kira is actually a nonprofit corporation

Pila Mulligan: PaB is a SL activity

Bruce: OK. . . Some very direct questions from the group about the future of WoK, please?

Aphrodite Macbain: So: #1. Before we proceed we need to identify the initial; purpose of WOK and then decide whether we could still organize sessions that support these objectives.

Aphrodite Macbain: #2. We need to decide what the procedure would be to shape the form and content of WOK

Pila Mulligan: contra-point to Aph's #1: what purpose would be of interest to use now?

Aphrodite Macbain: Can we continue using the original principles and objectives?

Calvino Rabeni: A rhetorical question ... do we understand them?

Aphrodite Macbain: what more do we want to do, discuss? are the principles too restrictive?

Pila Mulligan: it is interesting to me to have seen a dozen or more SL discussion groups search for and often fail to find the magic that creates cohesion in these sessions

Calvino Rabeni: I'd say each of us would give a different interpretation of those principles and objectives

Bruce: I feel that the "principles" are very broad -- that this is a laboratory for exploration of knowing in general....

Calvino Rabeni: Great question Pila.... what is the magic?

Calvino Rabeni: What makes a "sangha" for instance?

Pila Mulligan: :)

Calvino Rabeni: (could be a WoK topic in itself, a good one)

Bruce: ahhhh... THAT is a wonderful topic, Cal!

Aphrodite Macbain: agreed.

Aphrodite Macbain: It's about how we are supported as we learn

Bruce: Does "knowing" happen for a Sangha that does not happen for an individual apart from the Sangha?

Bruce: How does a Sangha come into being?

Pila Mulligan: if we had a common ground as strong as a belief in a divinity, it would be easier -- but fortunately we don't

Calvino Rabeni: it's surely relevant to the what-is-WoK question :)

Aphrodite Macbain: I am worried about the word "contemplative". That is only one way of learning isn't it? Does it restrict us?

Bruce: Does a Sangha provide a framework. . . ?

Pila Mulligan: Stim used it as a word of art, Aph

Bruce: an orientation. . . ?

Calvino Rabeni nods

Aphrodite Macbain: word of art?

Pila Mulligan: specific to meditative traditions

Calvino Rabeni: yes but it has its secular counterparts

Aphrodite Macbain: so...

Aphrodite Macbain: for example?

Pila Mulligan: it may be obsolete as a term in the context we are contemplating

Pila Mulligan: contemplation is a component of meditation

Pila Mulligan: it is also many things, additionally

Bruce: Some may not agree with this, but I felt that the poems shared last week were "contemplative" -- in that they caused me to do an inward quest, and offered containers for that quest

Aphrodite Macbain: You see the word contemplative means an inward looking learning, but so much of what we do is a collaborative learning -through discussions

Calvino Rabeni: the sociology of philosophy, for instance, talks about epistemic communities, and there are communities of practice, both ideas getting traction in organizational work and education

Pila Mulligan: yes, Bruce

Calvino Rabeni: Yes Aph

Bruce: ;-)

Bruce enjoys this.

Aphrodite Macbain: yes everyone

Bruce: ;-))))

Aphrodite Macbain: yes yes yes

Wol Euler smiles and nods

Bruce: OK - - I suggest that next week we have a free-for-all discussion of Sangha.

Bruce: Each person bring individual experience to share.

Aphrodite Macbain: Hmm. Perhaps it needs to be defined in all its manifestations

Bruce: not necessarily to rely only on traditional formulations of what Sangha means. . .

Aphrodite Macbain: Should we not decide what WOK's future is first?

Bruce: "Sangha" is a very special concept for a hermit, such as myself.

Calvino Rabeni: One attraction though, to me, about the original formulation for WoK is that it asked the question about whether the ways of knowing of contemplative traditions could be brought into everyday life and its value systems, and if so how? So it offered a kind of balancing influence to current cognitive / economic values

Aphrodite Macbain: Are we agreed that we meet every 2 weeks?

Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, I like that idea a lot Cal - making it real

Calvino Rabeni: I'd not heard about a 2 week proposal?

Aphrodite Macbain: I made it much earlier on

Bruce: well, I thought that's what we were doing. . . shaping WoK's future . . .

Aphrodite Macbain: to allow time for preparation and to avoid overwork and burnout by organizers

Bruce: OK -- let's first reach consensus on Aph's 2-week proposal.

Aphrodite Macbain: and that each of us is responsible for a month and a theme

Pila Mulligan: I'm not opposed to it, but uneasy with the timing -- maybe we have more contemplation to do first

Aphrodite Macbain: I am concerned about work overload for Bruce

Bruce thinks: THIS is what democracy looks like. ;-)

Wol Euler: :)

Bruce: Wait, Aph.

Bruce: I am not the leader of this group.

Calvino Rabeni: Bruce for president :)

Pila Mulligan: aye

Bruce: I am only facilitating communication.

Aphrodite Macbain: I know but you have been carrying it for the past ummm-- 4 weeks at least

Calvino Rabeni: very competently too

Aphrodite Macbain: yes

Bruce: I feel woefully inadequate to be anything else but a facilitator of communication ABOUT the group.

druth Vlodovic: and now you know better :)

Pila Mulligan: further chat about the group seems to me the most immediate prospect

Bruce: Just trying to keep WoK alive, if folks want it.

Aphrodite Macbain: Hmm so you are suggesting you would facilitate if other people prepared the content?

Pila Mulligan: jumping over that to conclusions may be hasty

Bruce: OK.. Then, next session -- more talking about WoK itself, Pila?

Pila Mulligan: I'd urge that, yes

Calvino Rabeni: I think you gave WoK CPR at just the right moment, Bruce:)

Bruce: ;-)

Aphrodite Macbain: yes, we are still going round in circles a bit

Bruce: a selfish motive for keeping it alive.

Aphrodite Macbain: ((bruce)))

Wol Euler: doesn't matter :) our experience trumps your motive :)

Pila Mulligan: :)

Aphrodite Macbain: I would be willing to organize the next meeting and chair it if you like

Bruce: OK. . . Is WoK also a sort of Sangha (thinking to myself, now)?

Aphrodite Macbain: or facilitate it..

Bruce: OK --YAYYYY!~ APH!!!

Aphrodite Macbain: I think it very much is

Bruce: [`·.] APPLAUSE!! [.·´]

Calvino Rabeni: Affirmative, hopefully stated

Aphrodite Macbain: and as a good sangha should be it is very supportive

Bruce: Aph, are you willing to chair our next meeting--- next Thursday?

Aphrodite Macbain: Pila,druth, cal? are you ok with that?

Aphrodite Macbain: yes

Calvino Rabeni: yes thanks

Bruce: I am happy to send out all communications -- and also post it in the WoK SL group's panel notices.

druth Vlodovic: go for it

Pila Mulligan: :)

Bruce: wonderful, Aph!

druth Vlodovic: maybe if people suggested topics in the google group people could adopt them, and make preparations for discussions?

Aphrodite Macbain: Ok. what I'd like to do is to pose a series of questions

Bruce is freeling!

Bruce: kk.

Aphrodite Macbain: with adequate info attached to make informed answers

Bruce: Through emails, Aph?

Aphrodite Macbain: Like do WoK's original principles restrict or inspire conversations?

Bruce: to the members of WoK, I mean?

Aphrodite Macbain: Yes. I would send out an email with the questions and information to WOK members.

Calvino Rabeni: will this be posted for discussion at your meeting?

Calvino Rabeni: OK

Aphrodite Macbain: then ask those same questions at the meeting

Aphrodite Macbain: Do we have an up-to-date membership list?

Bruce: ways-of-knowing@googlegroups.com

Aphrodite Macbain: I will rely on you all for advice - especially the original members

Bruce: I have such a membership list, yes.

Aphrodite Macbain: great

Bruce: I also asked everyone on the original list if anyone wanted to be removed from it.  No one did.

Aphrodite Macbain: then maybe by December, we will have ready a series of ideas for discussion and a process.

Aphrodite Macbain: good

Aphrodite Macbain: I'll remind them of that

Bruce: OK.

Aphrodite Macbain: This will be a good opportunity for me to learn more about WoK!

Bruce: Please be in touch with me, Aph, if you have any procedural questions along the way.

Aphrodite Macbain: for sure Bruce

Bruce: cool. . . Then, next week?

Aphrodite Macbain: I will run by my mail to all of you before I send it out

Aphrodite Macbain: email

Aphrodite Macbain: yes.

Aphrodite Macbain: Wow it's 3PM!

Wol Euler: 11pm :)

Calvino Rabeni: I feel like I just got here

Wol Euler: and I am fading fast

Wol Euler: goodnight all, take care

Wol Euler: sorry to be so silent tonight

Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain fans Wol with her fan

Calvino Rabeni: Good night !

Bruce: I have full confidence in you, Aph -- and also confidence that if folks want to amend whatever you say, they will feel free to do that.

Aphrodite Macbain: sleep tight

Pila Mulligan: bye wol

Bruce: Bye, Wol!

Aphrodite Macbain: Yes. I am counting on suggestions and comments

Bruce: OK -- Just say that in your email.

Bruce is freeling GOOD!

Aphrodite Macbain: Is there any thing else we should discuss? There is a KIRA meeting coming up and I'm wondering whether we should attend

Bruce: there is?

Calvino Rabeni: I know little about Kira

Calvino Rabeni: Bruce, were we able to get the wok meeting info updated?

druth Vlodovic: isn't it in Japanese?

Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- I sent out an email a few weeks ago re this. Storm suggested it if we plan to change anything since WoK is Kira's baby

Bruce: Yes, everything is updated now.

Calvino Rabeni: Who updated it?

Bruce: Hmmmm. . . Gaya, I think.... or maybe Storm. . . ?

druth Vlodovic: g2g, have fun guys

Aphrodite Macbain: updated in what way?

Bruce: I will check it again. . . There were several different places. . . so it might actually not all be updated, now that I think of it.

Pila Mulligan: bye druth

Calvino Rabeni: bye

Aphrodite Macbain: Bye

Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! druth!

Bruce: Bye, druth!

Bruce: Well, the Ways of Knowing main page listed us as meeting at a different time. .

Aphrodite Macbain: what has to be updated?

Aphrodite Macbain: upcoming meetings?

Bruce: but that is superceded by emails and notices in SL.

Bruce: I will find it and let you know, Aph.

Bruce: No, the calendar is acurate. . .

Bruce: accurate*

Bruce: (my spelling is not so accurate).

Aphrodite Macbain: Your emails have always been useful Bruce- I don't think anyone checks anything else

Bruce: ok.

Bruce: and now YOUR emails, too!~

Aphrodite Macbain: :-)

Bruce: ok. THANKS, everyone.

Aphrodite Macbain: I'll change the colour from blue to orange!

Aphrodite Macbain: you look like an aviator Bruce

Aphrodite Macbain: Bye

Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! everyone

Bruce: This is my Dharma Initiative suit (from LOST)

Pila Mulligan: bye Bruce and Aph

Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain grins

Bruce: Bye, Aph.

Bruce: You both have supported me -- although through individual groups -- Original Face and I Ching.

Bruce: Both are "sangha" for me.

Pila Mulligan: me is multi-tasking with a RL client, so 55% here

Calvino Rabeni nods ... glad to hear the I Ching group has vitality

Pila Mulligan: sangha

Pila Mulligan: nice term

Bruce: Indeed it does have vitality, Cal. . .

Bruce: but it also seems to be in a transitional phase right now...

Pila Mulligan: yep

Bruce: ;-)

Calvino Rabeni: where is it going?

Bruce listens for more from Pila. . .

Pila Mulligan: Buddha, Dharma, Sangha -- the Three Refuges

Pila Mulligan: oh, wrong topic

Bruce: ;-)

Pila Mulligan: we are shifting from a beginners course to something more substantial

Pila Mulligan: in the first year everyone was mostly new to the idea

Pila Mulligan: last year we went through the novice phase to more substance

Pila Mulligan: now the chats seem to take up a new topic each time

Pila Mulligan: I'm trying to see where it is going, and help it along

Calvino Rabeni: nods

Pila Mulligan: 2 years already -- time flies

Bruce: If I might be quite personal now. . .

Pila Mulligan: please, Bruce

Bruce: Yesterday I had to see my urologist about a prostate problem. . .

Bruce: so I threw an I Ching reading first. . .

Bruce: and it came up #22 --- "Grace"

Bruce: and what really GOT to me was the4 fifth line.

Pila Mulligan: any changing lines?

Bruce: Yes, the second and fifth, Pila.

Pila Mulligan: ok

Bruce: The fifth line. . .

Pila Mulligan: 'not a robber ...'

Bruce: 5th line says, "Humiliation, but in the end good fortune."

Pila Mulligan: change to 9?

Pila Mulligan: yes, that was something I thought of too, Bruce

Pila Mulligan: prostate invasion but ok results

Bruce: yes, changes from six to nine (the 5th line).

Pila Mulligan: I meant 22 to 9 (gua)

Pila Mulligan: 2nd and 5th lines

Bruce: Anyway. . . I felt relieved and more able to have a "better" way of taking in the whole experience.

Pila Mulligan: makes Sun over Chien

Bruce: and my doctor is simply wonderful.

Pila Mulligan: when will you have the results

Bruce: Well, I've already had one biopsy. . .

Bruce: but yesterday, the doc said he will do everything possible to see that I don't have to have another one.

Bruce: so he did some tests yesterday...

Pila Mulligan: :)

Bruce: and told me that it will take a couple of days to find out the results. . .

Bruce: so, right now I am "gracefully" waiting for his call.

Bruce: I might have to have a second biopsy, but I am prepared for that -- either way.

Bruce: I also need to go.

Bruce: Thanks to both of you!

Pila Mulligan: good luck!