03.10.2011 - Conscience and Forgiveness

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    JS Saltwater: Gaya do you know if this is the spot for Ways of Knowing?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, welcome :)
    JS Saltwater: ok cool ty
    Fizakaal Wei: so i will stay as long as i can
    JS Saltwater: we have not been here before, Gaya, should we just have a seat?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Please, let me get you a link to our wiki.
    Fizakaal Wei: thank you
    Gaya Ethaniel: http://waysofknowing.kira.org/
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hope you are ok with us posting chat logs.
    Fizakaal Wei: is this in voice?
    Gaya Ethaniel: No this will be in text.
    Fizakaal Wei: ok
    Gaya Ethaniel: There is a description of today's topic on the home page and links to reports written by regular participants.
    JS Saltwater: the link to the wiki from this page is broken, fwiw http://mambo.playasbeing.org/index.p...108&Itemid=138
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Cal :)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Evening all
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi, Gaya :)
    Mickorod Renard: hellooo
    Gaya Ethaniel: Our wiki is here - http://waysofknowing.kira.org/
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): *peeks into the window*
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Agatha, Alfred, Liza and Mick :)
    Liza Deischer: hi everyone
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mitsu :)
    Liza Deischer: I can sit today :)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Mick! :)
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): aga girl :)
    Mickorod Renard: yeaa
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Boxy!
    Mitsu Ishii: hello all
    Calvino Rabeni: Well what a surprise to see you here Liza :)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Hi Mitsu
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): hi :)
    Liza Deischer: YEEEAAAAHH!!!
    Liza Deischer: I feel to lazy to change into avy today :)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Leave him in Legoland
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): javascript saltwater? :)
    Liza Deischer: sorry, I guess a gesture....... :)
    JS Saltwater: haha Al :)
    JS Saltwater: first time for that one :)
    Liza Deischer: Oh I like Avy...... :)
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): nice hat, cal
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): very capone
    Calvino Rabeni: I like Liza's hat too
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): bunny :)
    Liza Deischer: ah Cal, your's is more dangerous :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Atari :)
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi everyone :)
    Liza Deischer: hi Atara
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): atari is a nice nick
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): HI Atari :)
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :)
    Mickorod Renard: hi everyone i havnt said hi to
    JS Saltwater: Hello everyone, I'm new here so will be mostly lurking
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): no pila today?
    Gaya Ethaniel: brb
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Well he was looking for the music session yesterday, dunno if he found it
    Liza Deischer: hi JS :)
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Eliza :)
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): nope, never seen him
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): eliza :)
    Liza Deischer: hi Eliza
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Lizzie :)))
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Everyone! :))
    Mickorod Renard: Hi eliza
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): meep!
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Meep Meep   ;P :p:P :p :P
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): :)
    JS Saltwater: /me looks for coyote avi
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): hehe
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): /me pats Boxy's head
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I would like to confess ... the topic for today is Conscience, and I did not write any homework for it, and I felt that was "Wrong" but, ... did it anyway now feel a sense of remorse . :)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): You have a conscience then Cal :p
    Fizakaal Wei: no judgements, Calvino :)
    Mickorod Renard: I am sure we can just follow threads
    Gaya Ethaniel: [back & reading]
    Gaya Ethaniel: heheh Cal
    Mickorod Renard: my conscience seems such a burden sometimes, it holds me back so much from being ruthless
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): mick, like going to a nude beach? :)
    JS Saltwater: no that's clotheslessness
    Mickorod Renard: well, not so much that, that is my lack of confidence
    Mickorod Renard: well, lack of something
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well give us an example of being ruthless Mick?
    Liza Deischer: hmmmm, what is conscience
    Mickorod Renard: well, maybe strong words, but I was relating to how I feel I could have been more successful had I been less prone to conscience
    JS Saltwater: (should I register on the forum site and be reading the posts there in order to participate here now?]
    Calvino Rabeni: No rule, JS, but it would help
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Fox
    JS Saltwater: k thx
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry to ask another question ... what kind of success do you mean Mick?
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Foxy :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fox :)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Now we have Boxy and Foxy
    Fox Monacular: Hi everyone:)
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): heheh
    Liza Deischer: hi Fox
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): mick, regret?
    Mickorod Renard: There is a trend in that to be more successful say at work, one could be more selfish and not consider others
    Liza Deischer: is that consciousness
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fox :)
    Fox Monacular: :) Eliza
    Mickorod Renard: HI Fox
    Eliza Madrigal: Seems a false premise Mick... or maybe it depends on what success would be
    Mickorod Renard: well, i was just trying to get us started
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Go for it Mick
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): eliza, i think it's related
    Eliza Madrigal: yes?
    Fizakaal Wei: to me conciousness is having the ability to ask yourself if you have consciousness
    Mickorod Renard: well, wanting to do the right thing instead of just playing statistics
    Mickorod Renard: I could lie and cheat and get on very well
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I have to duck out early today...my conscience is telling me I have too much work to do :)
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Be well, everyone :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Atari :)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Take care Atari
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Violet, nice to see you
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): maybe it's a boundary of how far you can go in order to please yourself
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aph
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Aphrodite :)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): And hello Aphro
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello!
    Mickorod Renard: thats a good way to see it Alf
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Mck
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, but could you really, Mick... you could ignore the feeling that 'i don't like this' for a time, but it may bite you later... or get bitten now and take some solace in that, hah
    Mickorod Renard: exactly, istnt that having a concience though..
    Mickorod Renard: I am talking about something more than being found out
    Mickorod Renard: its about knowing yourself
    Eliza Madrigal: /me nods
    JS Saltwater: makes me think of the line "Character is what you are in the dark"
    Mickorod Renard: and living with that knowledge
    Liza Deischer: nice line :)
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): it's an application of conscience, eliza. in case of mick, he wouldn't say undermine a colleague at work to gain some career points.
    JS Saltwater: Is conscience something different from the "internalized surveillance" that Foucault talks about?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Does everyone agree that a conscience is something that is learned; that it's not innate?
    Liza Deischer: sorry I don't know Foucault.....
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): I know his pendulum...
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Mickorod Renard: I was thinking it was on those lines JS
    JS Saltwater: the other one
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): aph, yes
    JS Saltwater: Michel Foucault
    Fox Monacular: there are probably elements of social/cultural control... too.. internalized surveillance and also a superego
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Sorry, didn't know there was one
    JS Saltwater: on the innate question - hmm
    Fox Monacular: perhaps there are layers... of internalising?
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, films, books etc reinforce those values that then effect our conscience
    Fox Monacular: 'repressive hypothesis'
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): there are only instincts innately
    Aphrodite Macbain: along with our parents, the chirch, our teachers, our friends
    JS Saltwater: but maybe a mechanism for a conscience to form in is innate?
    Eliza Madrigal: /me nods.. what I would tend toward
    Mickorod Renard: I have mused with these feelings, even questioning whether I shroud my exterior softness with names like right and having a conscience, but maybe I am too cowardly to be ruthless?
    Aphrodite Macbain: our cerebral cortex/memory
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Or too nice Mick
    JS Saltwater: probably just an offshoot of humans' socially constructed self, the internalised other
    Aphrodite Macbain: exterior softness... nice
    JS Saltwater: the "admonitory voices" Julian Jaynes talks about
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes JS
    Fox Monacular: internalized other... yes I was thinking something similar
    JS Saltwater: (sorry, stream of conscience :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: haha
    Fox Monacular: :)
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: mine is a torrent
    Calvino Rabeni: Reading Eliza's report I reflected on how much courage it would take to act more on conscience, .. both to protect the soft heart, and to face the conditions in the world that seem wrong.. so there seems needed both softness and the "roar of a lion"
    Aphrodite Macbain: What "pricks" our conscience?
    Aphrodite Macbain: how would it protect our soft heart?
    Mickorod Renard: knowing something is right gives you the courage
    Eliza Madrigal: well act on conscience in a way that didn't project onto others seems the tricky part
    JS Saltwater: good observation Cal, conscience is (ideally) the loving force that has to act with power to have effect, perhaps?
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, one person's bad is another persons ok
    JS Saltwater: yes the "knowing something is right" bit makes me nervous Mick
    Calvino Rabeni: Or one person's bad is another person's bad-but-numb
    Aphrodite Macbain: me too JS
    Gaya Ethaniel: Say more JS?
    Mickorod Renard: true, there are often two sides of a coin
    JS Saltwater: many clearly wrong people have known they were right
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): mick, being ruthless against your nature is not productive. eventually, it'll bring more harm and stress than regret about past soft times.
    Eliza Madrigal: 'good intentions'
    Aphrodite Macbain: or sometimes more sides
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Indeed Alf
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes Alf
    Eliza Madrigal: so 'one's own hot spot' seems key to me in considering conscience
    Mickorod Renard: I am just envious of those who are able to shrug off conscience
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): first step would be to embrace yourself as you are :)
    Liza Deischer: /me wonders if Ghadaffi has a consience
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Alf
    Aphrodite Macbain: Those without a conscience would be psychotic, wouldn
    JS Saltwater: Mick, rationalization and sociopathy arent that enviable :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: t they?
    Mickorod Renard: I try, but it hurts
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Unlikely Liza
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fizakaal Wei: need to go people, thank you
    Mickorod Renard: bye Fiz
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Fiz
    JS Saltwater: see ya Fiz
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): C ya Fiz
    Eliza Madrigal: we say they don't have a conscience, but more likely is that it is horribly deadened, potential not cared for?
    Liza Deischer: I'm not so sure, is it lack of consious or is it about having the wrong impression.....
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Fizakaal
    Mickorod Renard: i like equanimity
    Mickorod Renard: that poses questions
    Aphrodite Macbain: ??
    Eliza Madrigal: equanimity seemed to come up a lot for me thinking about this, too
    Mickorod Renard: in relation to conscience
    Aphrodite Macbain: finding a balance means being open minded to new concepts
    Eliza Madrigal: /me listens, mick...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Fizakaal :)
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): mick, think of all the wonderful things you could do in the time when you just sit and envy :)
    Mickorod Renard: trying to find the right path through all these thoughts is hard
    Calvino Rabeni: One thing that confuses people, is when others are acting according to a different and not well understood set of values .. their acts of conscience may be according to different rules .. not sure if it applies to dictators like Ghadaffi, but it might.
    Aphrodite Macbain: maybe there isn't a "right" path
    Mickorod Renard: yes Alf, I am quick to move on when I recognise the feelings
    Mickorod Renard: yes Cal
    Eliza Madrigal: yes I was thinking about Dao's report of jury duty... and how I can stand for hours in a cereal aisle thinking of pros and cons to each... how obvious I have to let things become before action
    Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder what Ghadaffi uses to justify what he has done
    Liza Deischer: the set of values detict the conscience
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): mick, then i see no problem there :)
    Eliza Madrigal: so hesitant to be 'sure'
    Liza Deischer: oh, if you listen to his arguments........ I think he really thinks he's right
    Mickorod Renard: and this too could apply to say a budhist monk who passes through life and doesnt act when seeing things that we may act from conscience?
    JS Saltwater: good observation Eliza
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): aph, his conscience and the sense of reality have shifted to some unknown realms
    Eliza Madrigal: being authority and ruler IS all, for some of these dictators...
    Aphrodite Macbain: we often make snap judgements without weighing thngs at all
    JS Saltwater: it's the patriarchal imperative run amok
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): True
    Aphrodite Macbain: true boxy
    Eliza Madrigal: there is nothing else and anything that bumps up against it has to be supressed
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well it can be a relief to just buy a bag of porridge oats :P
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): It can if you're scottish
    Liza Deischer: even dictators needs justifications for their acts
    Mickorod Renard: it must come down to values, and these are different to different people
    Aphrodite Macbain: So. saying someone has a conscience may not indicate that his moral justifications are the same as ours
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Yes... that's the thing, eventually I make myself grab something... but am I 'sure'? is it 'clear'? sooo rare
    Calvino Rabeni: The people of most countries, I guess as an average, seem to want "tough" leaders.. at least a lot of them want that in a leader
    Liza Deischer: maybe being conscious is linked with justification
    Calvino Rabeni: and they want something different in a spiritual leader
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
    Calvino Rabeni: than in a political executive
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Zen
    JS Saltwater: Dictators usually think they are the over-father and that justifies their acts, like the guy in The Shining
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen
    Aphrodite Macbain: they want someone to think and act for them usually
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Yo Zen
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): imagine a person who has been a sole ruler of the state for 30 years and never heard "no" in his life
    Liza Deischer: not in Tibet Cal :)
    Mickorod Renard: the uberman
    Eliza Madrigal: /me nods JS...
    Aphrodite Macbain: ubermensch
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi all sorry for lateness
    JS Saltwater: "Father Knows Best" with security prisons
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): zen :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Zen
    Liza Deischer: hi Zen
    Eliza Madrigal: well authority, in some paradigms, comes from god and that's it...
    Mickorod Renard: I sometimes thingk about Ayne Rand..who said something about humans being split between the higher order and the ones who are like cows in the field
    Aphrodite Macbain: Eliza- apparently most of our decisions are made quickly without much thought- a form of prejudice
    Calvino Rabeni: When a spiritual leader .. for instance a roshi, has a sexual scandal, there is so much outrage .. it makes me think people are "outsourcing" their moral thinking to the leader, and disappointed and scared when the leader doesn't live up to the expectation, scared perhaps of their own freedom if it comes with moral responsibility
    JS Saltwater: I need to run, folks, but thx for letting me crash the convo. Hope to be back for the next one.
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): i'd say that gaddafi and people alike are beyond of scope of our understanding :)
    Mickorod Renard: bye JS
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Bye JS
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks for coming JS :)
    Calvino Rabeni: So long, JS
    Eliza Madrigal: bye JS
    JS Saltwater: ty all
    Aphrodite Macbain: outsourcing....hmm
    Gaya Ethaniel: Still thinking about you mentioning equanimity here Mick ...
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Want to say a bit more?
    Eliza Madrigal: agree Cal... very easy to pedestalize
    Mickorod Renard: only that is a struggle for me to ,,whats the word,,,reconcile that
    Aphrodite Macbain: pygmalion
    Zen (zen.arado): setting people up to be more pure than us
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: we need our heros
    Calvino Rabeni: It also goes to show how much ethical and moral intelligence is collective and distributed, rather than encapsulated in each individual
    Mickorod Renard: reconcile equanimity with caring and so forth
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes- morality is societal and culural; not an absolute
    Eliza Madrigal: a clear conscience would seem to be a calm waters one... but many have never tasted that perhaps
    Mickorod Renard: the only way I can do it is to believe I am above the issues of the world
    Calvino Rabeni: Religion tries to speak to aspirations as well as morality .. the Law tries to set a lower boundary on what's acceptable
    Aphrodite Macbain: Ghaddafi has a clear conscience...
    Liza Deischer: maybe consious kicks in when the water isn't that calm.....
    Mickorod Renard: he is just tending his cattle
    Aphrodite Macbain: zap!
    Mickorod Renard: in his mind
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Moo
    Aphrodite Macbain: the catle feel good if they obey
    Calvino Rabeni: I think we refer to "conscience" as a kind of corrective signal when things are wrong -- thinking of the Lao Tzu quote in the homework report
    Eliza Madrigal: mm, nods, sure
    Aphrodite Macbain: /me makes a note to read again
    Calvino Rabeni: but when things are smooth, it's just using a feeling sense for what's right .. these might be the same sensibilities
    Zen (zen.arado): so where does it come from?
    Zen (zen.arado): or did you cover that?
    Aphrodite Macbain: brainwashing
    Mickorod Renard: but if we were to profit greatly by turning a blind eye would our conscience be so strong?
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh let me make a notecard sorry Zen ...
    Aphrodite Macbain: I think not, it would still prick us
    Aphrodite Macbain: Mick
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: But people like to pick their leaders / brainwashers and submit to them, seem to need it
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): cal, conscience is a measure of what's right
    Aphrodite Macbain: It becomes a conditioned response like anything else
    Aphrodite Macbain: I must go and call my mother. I haven
    Mickorod Renard: you can get embedded in concience, it can be holding back
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: nt spoken to her for a few days..
    Mickorod Renard: bye Aph
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): aph :)
    Liza Deischer: conscience isn't leaving by making bad decisions, it seems to be the moment that it kicks in, like an extra-internal feeling that comes from or is connected to........?
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Take care Aph, bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! all, thank you
    Calvino Rabeni: And when things are "just right" conscience doesn't speak, only when things seem to be getting off track .. that's probably the basis of the idea of "sin"
    Eliza Madrigal: 'missing the mark'
    Liza Deischer: right Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: so conscience steps in when there is a conflict and decisions might need to be made
    Zen (zen.arado): whre does the mark come from?
    Calvino Rabeni: Tao
    Calvino Rabeni: :) facile answer, sure
    Mickorod Renard: the problem is,,,the world today is stretching the parametres of what traditionally has been right
    Liza Deischer: good question Zen
    Zen (zen.arado): the standard , the norm
    Zen (zen.arado): ?
    Calvino Rabeni: No zen
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): mick, example please
    Mickorod Renard: erm
    Calvino Rabeni: the norm seems pretty "sinful" if you'll forgive me that term
    Liza Deischer: nods at Mick
    Mickorod Renard: cant think of a good example
    Eliza Madrigal: I have a toothache, it is a sign that something was wrong with my tooth so I went through lots more pain to fix it... so the dull ache would go away... :) I also may be loopy and that have nothing to do with this...
    Calvino Rabeni: Isn't there a common myth that all of humanity is "fallen" .. that is not really at peace with conscience?
    Zen (zen.arado): you have to transgress something to feel guilty
    Zen (zen.arado): original sin
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Agreed Zen :)
    Eliza Madrigal: you have to transgress an 'other' perhaps
    Zen (zen.arado): we are all rotten sinners but savable by grace is the Christian view
    Eliza Madrigal: I don't think that's the only christian view... but the loudest
    Zen (zen.arado): we can only feel guit in relation to others?
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): cal, you always bring a theologic view :)
    Liza Deischer: there is a series about slavery on CNN International; I guess 90 % of us will feel our conscious kicks in, but when we shop, we still want the best product for the best price....... so how extended is our conscience
    Calvino Rabeni: This can't be reduced to simple rules .. I'd guess there are moral feelings arising out of pure delusion too, or out of hormonal states or brain damage, etc.
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh E;liza
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Amen
    Zen (zen.arado): :)
    Mickorod Renard: well I am trying to do the right thing, but feel I am being left behind cos of my concience
    Zen (zen.arado): ye must be born again
    Zen (zen.arado): they say
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Hallelujah
    Zen (zen.arado): I mustn't mock
    Calvino Rabeni: So I bring in theology as much as neurophilosophy, I'd say, so that they can mutually correct each other
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): praise the lord!
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): No, naughty boy
    Eliza Madrigal: good point Liza... we make compromises all the time based on what we think our ability to choose otherwise is
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): :P
    Mickorod Renard: yea, I tried to stop child labour imports once
    Calvino Rabeni: Good point Eliza
    Zen (zen.arado): conscience isn't intellectual though - more of a feeling?
    Eliza Madrigal: 'most men lead lives of quiet desperation'
    Calvino Rabeni: No one I think, likes to torture themselves by taking on a personal or societal moral issue that feels intractable .. that could be a shifting line though,
    Zen (zen.arado): we sure do Eliza :(
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): mick, can you tell more on that?
    Zen (zen.arado): it's so tough for us
    Zen (zen.arado): the right thng is your conscience Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: well, maybe not
    Liza Deischer: /me mumbles, maybe our primal brain isn't made for global conscience
    Mickorod Renard: but we think it is
    Calvino Rabeni: On a more personal level ... how many of us I wonder, choose friends or a social network to help be more discerning, to use correct judgments, maybe be held "accountable" ... instead of seeking individual liberty from external judgments that seem oppressive to individual freedom .. ? There's a lot to be said for both practices.
    Calvino Rabeni: And I agree with Liza there
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh Eliza
    Zen (zen.arado): we are still ittle close tribes really
    Mickorod Renard: o maybe its ou idealistic opinion
    Zen (zen.arado): Liza I mean
    Eliza Madrigal: /me nods @ Cal re environment...
    Zen (zen.arado): we choose friends because they like what we do
    Zen (zen.arado): I think
    Gaya Ethaniel: A few minutes left ... shall we continue next week with forgiveness?
    Zen (zen.arado): not one's who disapprove
    Liza Deischer: yes Zen, and that's an interesting point Cal...... a kind of collective more focussed on the survival of the group conscience versus a more personal conscience, they can contradict each other.....
    Zen (zen.arado): suits me
    Calvino Rabeni: I know I choose friends who can disagree with me where it's appropriate and help me learn .. within a range I can accept emotionally
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): /me nods
    Eliza Madrigal: /me nods @ both
    Eliza Madrigal: but I sort of let life choose my friends sometimes too
    Eliza Madrigal: even when it makes no sense to me :)
    Liza Deischer: forgiveness, yes sounds great after putting my conscience under a loop :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I think forgiveness is a good topic, if it is balanced with conscience or accountability ..
    Zen (zen.arado): /me thinks he should choose friends that way but.....
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Loopy Liz :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Zen... don't you have friends you've had forever that annoy you but you respect?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Would be nice to hear more about that point Cal next week :)
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh I guess,,,but made a mistake :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay... bye and thanks everyone
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks everyone :)
    Mickorod Renard: bye Eliza
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Bye for now
    Mickorod Renard: thanks All
    Zen (zen.arado): thanks everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh! btw Cal... the soul comments you made last week re earth and sky... nice!
    Liza Deischer: bye everyone that is going
    Eliza Madrigal: thanks for that
    Mickorod Renard: I need to slip away,,thankyou
    Eliza Madrigal: /me waves
    Zen (zen.arado): blanket bye
    Liza Deischer: (I always need some time to get up)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Yea, let's call it a night
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): It's a night
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Hugs Ags
    Eliza Madrigal: Night it is

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