01.27.2011 - Basic Goodness

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    Sunshine Vayandar: listening?
    Avy Runner: yes
    Sunshine Vayandar: listening can be tricky
    Avy Runner: ah yes, of course
    Calvino Rabeni: I lost track - where is that retreat?
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
    Avy Runner: talking too :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello, Dao and Mitsu
    Mickorod Renard: I am not sure cal
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
    Sunshine Vayandar: hi Dao
    Avy Runner: hi Dao, Mitsu
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Dao,,Mitsu
    Dao Yheng: HI Calvino and all!
    Sunshine Vayandar: New Orleans right?
    Mickorod Renard: ahhh yes
    Mitsu Ishii: hello
    Sunshine Vayandar: Eliza told me about it
    Sunshine Vayandar: hi Mitsu
    Calvino Rabeni: zzzzzzzzzzzo
    Calvino Rabeni: enn that is, expecting him I am :)
    Dao Yheng: I'm very curious to hear how the retreat is going -- curious about what New Orleans is like these days
    Avy Runner: yes
    Mickorod Renard: yes that occured to me too,,after the flood
    Mickorod Renard: hurricane
    Avy Runner: there still seems to be quite a mess in the ninth quarter
    Zen Arado: Hi all
    Avy Runner: hey Zen
    Sunshine Vayandar: hi Zen ;)
    Mickorod Renard: makes me wonder how they will clear up in australia too
    Ataraxia Azemus: Hi guys :)
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Zen
    Sunshine Vayandar: hi Ataraxia
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Atara
    Avy Runner: yes, I wonder if that is different.....
    Avy Runner: hi Ataraxia
    Avy Runner: maybe less destruction
    Zen Arado: Hi Ataraxia
    Alfred Kelberry: *peeks into the window*
    t: Alfred Kelberry: * Guckt in das Fenster *
    Mickorod Renard: what was our chosen subject tonite?
    Dao Yheng: :) Hi Alfred
    Dao Yheng: http://waysofknowing.kira.org/
    Avy Runner: hi Alf......
    Alfred Kelberry: *waves* hello :)
    t: Alfred Kelberry: * Wellen * hallo:)
    Dao Yheng: Basic Goodness
    Sunshine Vayandar: hi Alt, Sam
    Sunshine Vayandar: Alf ;)
    Dao Yheng: http://waysofknowing.kira.org/Homework_Ideas/Basic_Goodness
    Zen Arado: hi Alf
    Anastasia Genesis: hallo
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Ana
    Avy Runner: Zen, you look as small as I am :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Ana
    Zen Arado: I do?
    Avy Runner: hi Ana
     Avy Runner(nl>>en): "hi Home"
    Sunshine Vayandar: hi Ana
    Anastasia Genesis: may i join you please?
    Dao Yheng: sure, we're talking about http://waysofknowing.kira.org/
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes please do Ana
    Anastasia Genesis: thanks
    Zen Arado: you just sink into thee seats :)
    Alfred Kelberry: what's the today's topic?
    oO0Oo Resident: kann ich auch, bitte
    Zen Arado: Hi Sam
    Mitsu Ishii: http://waysofknowing.kira.org/Homework_Ideas/Basic_Goodness
    Avy Runner: who's also Dutch here?
    Dao Yheng: Zen, I was tickled that you and I zeroed in on the same essay by Trungpa this week
    Sunshine Vayandar: I am a bit Afrikaans
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;p
    Avy Runner: k :)
    Dao Yheng: (that's why the sunshine -- snowing here in NY)
    Zen Arado: it's hard to make sense of him sometime
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;))
    Zen Arado: s
    Alfred Kelberry: *hears "sunshine reggae" in his head*
    Dao Yheng: how so, Zen? I thought you understood him quite well in your report
    Sunshine Vayandar: hears it also now ;)
    Zen Arado: not so sure afterwards
    Alfred Kelberry: *beams the tune to sun* :)
    Calvino Rabeni: What do you "get", Zen?
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
    Zen Arado: searching for report
    Dao Yheng: Maybe it is the winter mindset, but I also felt drawn to the tenderness of the early morning depression
    Zen Arado: ah yes the morning depression
    Alfred Kelberry: dao, depression?
    Zen Arado: know it well :)
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Ataraxia Azemus: Early morning depression?
    Zen Arado: and the way we escape from it
    Zen Arado: booking hols in the sun is very common
    Calvino Rabeni: Is that referring to a general mood ..?
    Dao Yheng: Trungpa's essay sort of describes the dance between the soft dot and early morning depression
    Mitsu Ishii: http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/vctr/ges.html
    Zen Arado: well I get it specifically :)
    Dao Yheng: :))
    Mickorod Renard: I like to think of early morning as spring time
    Zen Arado: should have went to New Orleans
    Mitsu Ishii: "That basic human quality of suddenly opening up is the best part of human instinct. You know what to do right away, on the spot -which is fantastic. That is what we call the dot, or basic goodness and unconditional instinct. When you have an instinct of the real instinct, you don't think: you just feel, on the spot. Basic trust is knowing that there is such a thing as that spark of basic goodness. Although you might be in the worst of the worst shape, still that goodness does exist."
    Dao Yheng: early morning depression is kind of a stand in for all the ways we tend to evade or push away our little dissatisfactions
    Mickorod Renard: a new born day
    Ataraxia Azemus: Yes, Mick; I feel that way, too :)
    Mickorod Renard: it may be cos it hurts me to sleep
    Zen Arado: I thought there were 'morning people' who don't get that feeling?
    Zen Arado: I am more of a night owl
    Dao Yheng: maybe some people get the mid-afternoon slump instead :)
    Zen Arado: or feel a setting sun depression?
    Ataraxia Azemus: Ah, THAT one I know :)
    Calvino Rabeni: It's hard (for me personally) to understand the kind of people who hit the ground, running, first thing in the morning
    Zen Arado: I wondered why he calls it that when it is the morning varierty he talks about
    Zen Arado: me too :)
    Zen Arado: are are unbearablt cheerful :)
    Mickorod Renard: its autopilot for me Cal,,until I get out the shower
    Zen Arado: unbearably*
    Avy Runner: hi Chi
    Zen Arado: hi Chi
    Calvino Rabeni: My autopilot is on the "blink"
    Sunshine Vayandar: hi Chi
    Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Chi :)
    Chi Aho: Hello everyone
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Chi
    Ataraxia Azemus: My autopilot takes a good half hour to get up and running...
    Zen Arado: so it's great to have a nice holiday to look forward to
    Zen Arado: ?
    Avy Runner: oh..... let's not talk about my auto-pilot then :)
    Mitsu Ishii: Well the main point of Trungpa's notion is just this idea that we surround ourselves with habitual ideas which give us a sense of defeat, doom.
    Ataraxia Azemus: lol Avy
    Dao Yheng: I find that sitting in the morning helps me ease into things
    Mitsu Ishii: "We possess what is known as basic goodness. Then we develop an overlay of unnecessary tricks and occupations. We develop little tricks to shield ourselves from being embarrassed-or from feeling too painful or naked."
    Mickorod Renard: but it would be nice to have a great holiday of a life to get up to each morning
    Zen Arado: so he is saying we shouldn't use these escapist devices?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, all these conditions ... but they're skills of coordinating too with what the world seems to require
    Calvino Rabeni: playing the games we've learned and doing the steps
    Calvino Rabeni: they are the dance steps of cooperation, not just escapist
    Mickorod Renard: mmm a conditioning to what we think the world expects of us
    Zen Arado: we give ourselves little treats to look forward to
    oO0Oo Resident: lids and flowers
    Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Dali :)
    Zen Arado: I think it is just resistance to what is
    Mickorod Renard: sound like attachments
    Sunshine Vayandar: hi Dali
    Mickorod Renard: Hi dali
    Zen Arado: hi Dali
    Avy Runner: hi Dali
    Mitsu Ishii: he's saying that the little tricks we use to shield ourselves from embarrassment or pain ultimately end up stifling us
    Calvino Rabeni: We were talking about tension in the play as being meeting
    Dao Yheng: I suppose we can turn even meditation in to an escapist device --
    Calvino Rabeni: "resistance" is of that type
    Mitsu Ishii: and leading to what he calls a "setting sun" mentality
    Zen Arado: yes Dao
    Calvino Rabeni: resistance is something that needs to claim the positive basic goodness underneath
    Avy Runner: yes I think so Dao
    Mitsu Ishii: the irony is, they are tricks we use to protect ourselves, but ultimately they backfire and surround us like a wall
    Avy Runner: I even think a lot of meditations are done that way
    Zen Arado: we need to see the resistance first though
    Zen Arado: ?
    Mickorod Renard: yes Mitsu,,like control
    Zen Arado: yes Mitsu
    Calvino Rabeni: it may be a "wall" - it's more often a "channel" where we're successful and get a lot out of it
    Zen Arado: we build a nice cocoon
    Calvino Rabeni: yet are not as free as we could be
    Avy Runner: channel, I like that word
    Dao Yheng: anything can be turned into a help or a hinderance
    Calvino Rabeni: the enabling habits - the ones we don't experience as suffereing - are limits also
    Mickorod Renard: I am much more free and open these days,,its much more liberating
    oO0Oo Resident: near enemies Cal?
    Dao Yheng: that sounds great Mickorod
    Mickorod Renard: I guess its like taking off a ton of bullet proof armour
    Calvino Rabeni: Have you ever acquired a skill or a "way" ... and felt like - I'm good - damn, now I'll be stuck with this
    Mitsu Ishii: if we can be more radically present and simple that means also being more naked
    Sunshine Vayandar: what do u mean by enabling habits Cal?
    Avy Runner: yes Cal, but can be 'used'
    Mitsu Ishii: in some sense more vulnerable, more open to whatever, positive and negative
    Calvino Rabeni: I mean useful habits that get good things done
    Mitsu Ishii: but that leaves us also open to this fundamental basic goodness at the core of our being. that's basically what Trungpa is talking about there
    Zen Arado: yes - it sounds simple Mitsu
    Zen Arado: why don't we do it?
    Sunshine Vayandar: kk
    oO0Oo Resident: that's where warriorship comes in
    Dao Yheng: :))
    Zen Arado: just staying in what is with no resistance
    Anastasia Genesis: how does the warriorship come in?
    Zen Arado: yes Sam
    Avy Runner: warriorship yes
    Mickorod Renard: resistance is futile
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Dao Yheng: ha ha!
    oO0Oo Resident: the willingness to be in the ungrounded vulnerability
    Avy Runner: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The squeaky wheel gets the oil .... attention goes to the things that don't work .. but the successful habits are limiting too, they can be "machines"
    Zen Arado: well put Sam
    Calvino Rabeni: and when trying to break out of the successful channel .. ackkk, :) there's the fear
    oO0Oo Resident: yes but first a gap
    Zen Arado: yes - we like our habitual ways - they worked in the past
    Zen Arado: for a while anyway
    Zen Arado: a gap?
    Mickorod Renard: and also we have attachments we accept as wanting to keep
    Mickorod Renard: like kids
    Mickorod Renard: and a house
    Mitsu Ishii: it's hard to give up these tricks
    Anastasia Genesis: like kids with toys?
    Mitsu Ishii: defense mechanisms, reactions, etc.
    Dao Yheng: my fav is the evils of "good meditation experiences"
    Mitsu Ishii: expectations and so forth
    Mickorod Renard: ?
    Zen Arado: maybe it not these things but placing expectatins on them that they should make us happy?
    Avy Runner: I think the thing is to become aware of the habits and use them to our own and others benefit
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, Dao :)
    Avy Runner: as a step 'in between' so to speak
    oO0Oo Resident: before the limitless, or the habitual take place... a gap
    Zen Arado: an awareness gap?
    Anastasia Genesis: i like that Avy
    Calvino Rabeni: The in between is interesting because there's little identity there
    Avy Runner: (right Dao :), reading back a little )
    oO0Oo Resident: yes
    oO0Oo Resident: pays to notice
    Mitsu Ishii: right it's not any particular action or activity that's the problem, it's the way we do it. we do it while expecting it to turn out a certain way, or trying to pretend it can't go awry or something.
    Mitsu Ishii: when it does, or we fear it does, the doom starts to close in
    Zen Arado: we're doomed :)
    Dao Yheng: yup, yup!
    Zen Arado: sorry
    Avy Runner: good to know, so whats next :)
    oO0Oo Resident: we're doomed to wake up
    Mickorod Renard: mm yes,,I was always too fidgety to go fishing
    Ataraxia Azemus: Being closed to openness?
    Zen Arado: hope so Sam
    Zen Arado: just have to allow it
    oO0Oo Resident: and give up hope
    Zen Arado: and not play our usual tricks
    Calvino Rabeni: How about the rhetoric of "awakening" .. what do you make of that?
    Mickorod Renard: each day should be like going fishing,,maybe u catch something maybe not,,and accept it as a good day out anyway
    Avy Runner: giving up hope, yes
    Mickorod Renard: I dont fish though
    Zen Arado: when I used to fish I had to catch something
    oO0Oo Resident: our hooks will snag things
    Mitsu Ishii: there's a hilarious youtube video I found a few days ago which somehow captures this in a strange way http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w27vHZxxvW4
    oO0Oo Resident: we can notice
    oO0Oo Resident: and touch and go
    Zen Arado: but nicely put Mick
    Mitsu Ishii: you can watch it later -- it's several minutes but worth watchng to the end :)
    oO0Oo Resident: ty mitsu
    Zen Arado: thanks for link Mitsu
    Zen Arado: everyone is watching it now
    Mitsu Ishii: haha
    Calvino Rabeni: Not me .. :)
    Avy Runner: :)
    Dao Yheng: :)) Mits loves this video
    Calvino Rabeni: BUt if you are, I wouldn't mind a report :)
    Dao Yheng: they are having an argument over a store which is closed
    Zen Arado: a lot of resistance to a shop that is closed
    Dao Yheng: their whole world is falling apart!
    Dao Yheng: tears are flowing!
    Zen Arado: why can't it be open?
    Calvino Rabeni: Humor is a great thing
    Avy Runner: I like it :)
    Dao Yheng: ok, reconciling to the closed store now
    Avy Runner: and then if finally 'opens'........
    Zen Arado: and when it does open they don't seem worried about going in
    Dao Yheng: hee hee! Wow, I feel like we just went to the movies together
    Avy Runner: you need to see it
    Anastasia Genesis: rich use of language
    Chi Aho: This comes from not knowing what is important
    Zen Arado: the moral is.....
    oO0Oo Resident: ty for the accounts
    Anastasia Genesis: yes Zen?
    Mitsu Ishii: I think Armisen and Brownstein have a strange comedic insight there into the nature of life
    Zen Arado: how much we upset ourselves over things not going the way we want them to?
    Zen Arado: what do you think?
    Mitsu Ishii: because of course it seems absurd to overreact to a store being closed but in fact many of the things we react to in real life aren't really much more significant than that
    Mitsu Ishii: so they kind of play this up by setting up an intentionally silly example
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: overdramatised to make the point
    Mitsu Ishii: even better that the store wasn't actually closed, which is in a way another Dharma lesson
    Avy Runner: I like the different emotions that seems to follow each other up, until some numbness appears
    Dao Yheng: it's true -- especially on a friday night in NY, when everyone's beat up from a week of work but wanting to have fun, you can see this scenario play out in front of bars, restaurants, etc
    Mitsu Ishii: we often react to the label (what our thoughts tell us is going on) rather than really finding out what is really the case
    Anastasia Genesis: oh yes it must be a pretty general scenario
    Anastasia Genesis: here made specific and easier to identify with
    Avy Runner: and maybe that is the depression that is meant by Trungpa
    Zen Arado: I hadf three scenarios myself today
    Calvino Rabeni: I was noticing recently, how much people think with words, rather than through them
    Anastasia Genesis: three scenarios?
    Avy Runner: true Cal
    Calvino Rabeni likes scenarios
    oO0Oo Resident: ?? Cal
    Zen Arado: my disabled bus broke down so I didn't get to my art club
    Zen Arado: then the man who takes me to RL meditation had an accident coming to pick me up so didn't get to that
    Anastasia Genesis: sounds like a great day for meditating on lessons learnt Zen
    Zen Arado: and them my phone wouldn't work but found bad connection :)
    Avy Runner: :)
    Dao Yheng: oh yes, and then it's so easy to wonder, is this a conspiracy?
    Dao Yheng: am I meant to have a BAD DAY???
    Anastasia Genesis: what was your RL reaction Zen?
    Avy Runner: right
    Zen Arado: noticed I didn't worry too much
    Mickorod Renard: sorry,,crashed
    oO0Oo Resident: :) Zen
    Zen Arado: hope that doesn't sound boastful
    Dao Yheng: nice!
    Anastasia Genesis: sounds awesome to me :)
    Zen Arado: I still got here
    Mitsu Ishii: :)
    Dao Yheng: not at all, very inspiring zen!
    Anastasia Genesis: very brave
    Dao Yheng: (wb Mick)
    Mickorod Renard: what was that Zen?
    Zen Arado: thought how much worse if I had that accident
    oO0Oo Resident: and here.. is always here for us
    Mickorod Renard: :ty
    Zen Arado: and having to deal with insurance claim etc
    Anastasia Genesis: dont we all hate the bureaucracy of filling in forms
    Zen Arado: just my bad day Mick
    Mickorod Renard: owwww
    Zen Arado: me especially
    Zen Arado: have to work on that one :)
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Zen Arado: not owning a car sure cuts down on that
    Avy Runner: I notice though that at some days it seems to be easier to deal with those kind of things then other days
    Mickorod Renard: I think the more aware we are the harder we are on ourselves though
    Ataraxia Azemus: I had a bad day at the start of the week...it's always worse when you walk into it expecting a good day, instead of just rolling with the changes
    Zen Arado: yes Avy
    Avy Runner: there seems to be always a moment popping up in which you suddenly feel all those old habitual emotions again
    Zen Arado: and really trivial things get us upset
    Anastasia Genesis: could it depend on how much we are accustomed to take?
    Dao Yheng: do you have a sense for why it goes one way or the other avy?
    Anastasia Genesis: a tipping point
    Zen Arado: triggers something from the pst maybe
    Zen Arado: yes
    Avy Runner: yes triggers for sure
    Dao Yheng: oh, good observations, Ana and Zen
    Avy Runner: but it also seems to depend on our resistence
    Avy Runner: like a river that floods
    Anastasia Genesis: yes there is a point when our resistance crashes on its own
    Avy Runner: at some points is has a lot of space to flood land
    Zen Arado: but we can notice that trigger maybe
    Avy Runner: at some points it doesn't
    Avy Runner: and can brake through at a sudden moment
    Anastasia Genesis: we construct damms but some work some dont
    Avy Runner: yes Ana and I think triggers are important Zen
    Anastasia Genesis: and here you seem to be saying we should remove those damms
    Zen Arado: it shows us something about ourself
    Avy Runner: it shows us something about ourselves
    Anastasia Genesis: let things be
    oO0Oo Resident: journey itself... letting it be the goal
    Zen Arado: snap Avy
    Avy Runner: snap
    Avy Runner: shoot :)
    Dao Yheng: :))
    Zen Arado: :)
    Dao Yheng: it's a triple snap moment
    Dao Yheng: like skipping stones on the water :)
    Avy Runner: yes, i should have sad snap again :)
    oO0Oo Resident: snap
    oO0Oo Resident: happy
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Zen Arado: a sad snap :)
    Avy Runner: hehehe
    Avy Runner: sad = said, but anyway......
    Chi Aho: Enjoyed the chat, but rl calls; bye all
    Dao Yheng: OK, before I forget, we usually post these logs on the wiki -- if someone doesn't want their name included, can you IM me?
    oO0Oo Resident smiles at Avy
    Avy Runner: bye Chi
    Dao Yheng: bye Chi!
    Ataraxia Azemus: Take care, Chi
    Zen Arado: bye Chi
    Sunshine Vayandar: byebye Chi
    Mickorod Renard: bye chi
    Ataraxia Azemus: Tchk. Half second too late
    oO0Oo Resident: Tai Chi
    Mitsu Ishii: bye
    Ataraxia Azemus: Sam :)
    Avy Runner: (who is sam?)
    Zen Arado: I kept thinking that too Sam :)
    Zen Arado: oo0oo is Sam
    Dao Yheng: And zen had a nice suggestion for next week -- give me a sec, I'll dig it up
    Calvino Rabeni: for some reason oO00Oo is also "sam"
    oO0Oo Resident: green eggs and ham
    Avy Runner: ah, ok..... couldn't find Sam :)
    Ataraxia Azemus: Yes, please :)
    Zen Arado: I can't spell the last bit :)
    Dao Yheng: oh, the eggs!
    Dao Yheng: From Zen: My question was simply about enlightenment, awakening, Nirvana, whatever you want to call it. What is it? Does it exist? Is it a wonderful, blissful, higher state or quite ordinary? Have we got it already? If not, how do we get it? And does the seeking for it prevent us from reaching it, whatever it is?
    Zen Arado: and you added a bit Dao?
    Mitsu Ishii: good question.
    Dao Yheng: From Dao: "what does enlightenment mean to me and how am I trying to get it (or not get it)"
    Mickorod Renard: yes lovely
    Calvino Rabeni: That's a strong subject :)
    oO0Oo Resident: lol
    Mickorod Renard: like a good cheese
    Sunshine Vayandar: when is the next meeting? would love to hear about that ;))
    Avy Runner: if we can answer that next week :)
    Dao Yheng: We meet here every Thursday
    Sunshine Vayandar: ty Dao
    Zen Arado: hoping somebody knows :)
    Dao Yheng: Same time (2pm SLT)
    Sunshine Vayandar: ok
    oO0Oo Resident: there is a move: enlightenment gauranteed
    Mickorod Renard: please remind me if you see me next thursday
    oO0Oo Resident: mvie*
    oO0Oo Resident: movie*
    Zen Arado: is there a link Sam?
    Mickorod Renard: btw,,i had a nice lil dream that has strange wok type issues in it
    Dao Yheng: oh, do tell, Mick!
    oO0Oo Resident: will find Zen...
    Zen Arado: yes Mick?
    Ataraxia Azemus imagined cookware issues for half a second...
    Mickorod Renard: well,,i am best to give it out next week
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zen Arado: stir frying Mick?
    Ataraxia Azemus: hehe :)
    Mickorod Renard: although I could give Dao one now so doa can see if its appropriate
    Avy Runner: sorry everyone, I really need to go
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Avy Runner: hope to see you all next week
    Zen Arado: bye Avy
    Mickorod Renard: bye Avi
    Ataraxia Azemus: Take care, Avy
    Sunshine Vayandar: ty all it was very enlightening ;)
    Dao Yheng: ooh, that's too juicy
    Ataraxia Azemus: And Sunshine :)
    Dao Yheng: lovely to see you avy
    Dao Yheng: and sunshine!
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm glad you stopped in, Sunshine
    Sunshine Vayandar: byebyeee all take care ;)
    oO0Oo Resident: bye Sun :)
    Ataraxia Azemus: I think I'm going to head out, too so...take care everyone :)
    Zen Arado: thanks Sam
    oO0Oo Resident: :) Atar
    Dao Yheng: Good night ata
    Zen Arado: bye Sun
    Zen Arado: bye Atax
    Anastasia Genesis: gtg too bye everyone!
    Zen Arado: bye anas
    oO0Oo Resident: :) Ana
    Mitsu Ishii: bye everyone
    Mickorod Renard: bye folks leaving
    Mitsu Ishii is Offline
    Zen Arado: bye Mitsu
    oO0Oo Resident: :) Mitsu

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