01.27.2011 - Basic Goodness

Sunshine Vayandar: listening?
Avy Runner: yes
Sunshine Vayandar: listening can be tricky
Avy Runner: ah yes, of course
Calvino Rabeni: I lost track - where is that retreat?
Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
Avy Runner: talking too :)
Calvino Rabeni: Hello, Dao and Mitsu
Mickorod Renard: I am not sure cal
Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
Sunshine Vayandar: hi Dao
Avy Runner: hi Dao, Mitsu
Mickorod Renard: Hi Dao,,Mitsu
Dao Yheng: HI Calvino and all!
Sunshine Vayandar: New Orleans right?
Mickorod Renard: ahhh yes
Mitsu Ishii: hello
Sunshine Vayandar: Eliza told me about it
Sunshine Vayandar: hi Mitsu
Calvino Rabeni: zzzzzzzzzzzo
Calvino Rabeni: enn that is, expecting him I am :)
Dao Yheng: I'm very curious to hear how the retreat is going -- curious about what New Orleans is like these days
Avy Runner: yes
Mickorod Renard: yes that occured to me too,,after the flood
Mickorod Renard: hurricane
Avy Runner: there still seems to be quite a mess in the ninth quarter
Zen Arado: Hi all
Avy Runner: hey Zen
Sunshine Vayandar: hi Zen ;)
Mickorod Renard: makes me wonder how they will clear up in australia too
Ataraxia Azemus: Hi guys :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Zen
Sunshine Vayandar: hi Ataraxia
Mickorod Renard: Hi Atara
Avy Runner: yes, I wonder if that is different.....
Avy Runner: hi Ataraxia
Avy Runner: maybe less destruction
Zen Arado: Hi Ataraxia
Alfred Kelberry: *peeks into the window*
t: Alfred Kelberry: * Guckt in das Fenster *
Mickorod Renard: what was our chosen subject tonite?
Dao Yheng: :) Hi Alfred
Dao Yheng: http://waysofknowing.kira.org/
Avy Runner: hi Alf......
Alfred Kelberry: *waves* hello :)
t: Alfred Kelberry: * Wellen * hallo:)
Dao Yheng: Basic Goodness
Sunshine Vayandar: hi Alt, Sam
Sunshine Vayandar: Alf ;)
Dao Yheng: http://waysofknowing.kira.org/Homework_Ideas/Basic_Goodness
Zen Arado: hi Alf
Anastasia Genesis: hallo
Mickorod Renard: Hi Ana
Avy Runner: Zen, you look as small as I am :)
Zen Arado: Hi Ana
Zen Arado: I do?
Avy Runner: hi Ana
 Avy Runner(nl>>en): "hi Home"
Sunshine Vayandar: hi Ana
Anastasia Genesis: may i join you please?
Dao Yheng: sure, we're talking about http://waysofknowing.kira.org/
Calvino Rabeni: Yes please do Ana
Anastasia Genesis: thanks
Zen Arado: you just sink into thee seats :)
Alfred Kelberry: what's the today's topic?
oO0Oo Resident: kann ich auch, bitte
Zen Arado: Hi Sam
Mitsu Ishii: http://waysofknowing.kira.org/Homework_Ideas/Basic_Goodness
Avy Runner: who's also Dutch here?
Dao Yheng: Zen, I was tickled that you and I zeroed in on the same essay by Trungpa this week
Sunshine Vayandar: I am a bit Afrikaans
Sunshine Vayandar: ;p
Avy Runner: k :)
Dao Yheng: (that's why the sunshine -- snowing here in NY)
Zen Arado: it's hard to make sense of him sometime
Sunshine Vayandar: ;))
Zen Arado: s
Alfred Kelberry: *hears "sunshine reggae" in his head*
Dao Yheng: how so, Zen? I thought you understood him quite well in your report
Sunshine Vayandar: hears it also now ;)
Zen Arado: not so sure afterwards
Alfred Kelberry: *beams the tune to sun* :)
Calvino Rabeni: What do you "get", Zen?
Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
Zen Arado: searching for report
Dao Yheng: Maybe it is the winter mindset, but I also felt drawn to the tenderness of the early morning depression
Zen Arado: ah yes the morning depression
Alfred Kelberry: dao, depression?
Zen Arado: know it well :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Ataraxia Azemus: Early morning depression?
Zen Arado: and the way we escape from it
Zen Arado: booking hols in the sun is very common
Calvino Rabeni: Is that referring to a general mood ..?
Dao Yheng: Trungpa's essay sort of describes the dance between the soft dot and early morning depression
Mitsu Ishii: http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/vctr/ges.html
Zen Arado: well I get it specifically :)
Dao Yheng: :))
Mickorod Renard: I like to think of early morning as spring time
Zen Arado: should have went to New Orleans
Mitsu Ishii: "That basic human quality of suddenly opening up is the best part of human instinct. You know what to do right away, on the spot -which is fantastic. That is what we call the dot, or basic goodness and unconditional instinct. When you have an instinct of the real instinct, you don't think: you just feel, on the spot. Basic trust is knowing that there is such a thing as that spark of basic goodness. Although you might be in the worst of the worst shape, still that goodness does exist."
Dao Yheng: early morning depression is kind of a stand in for all the ways we tend to evade or push away our little dissatisfactions
Mickorod Renard: a new born day
Ataraxia Azemus: Yes, Mick; I feel that way, too :)
Mickorod Renard: it may be cos it hurts me to sleep
Zen Arado: I thought there were 'morning people' who don't get that feeling?
Zen Arado: I am more of a night owl
Dao Yheng: maybe some people get the mid-afternoon slump instead :)
Zen Arado: or feel a setting sun depression?
Ataraxia Azemus: Ah, THAT one I know :)
Calvino Rabeni: It's hard (for me personally) to understand the kind of people who hit the ground, running, first thing in the morning
Zen Arado: I wondered why he calls it that when it is the morning varierty he talks about
Zen Arado: me too :)
Zen Arado: are are unbearablt cheerful :)
Mickorod Renard: its autopilot for me Cal,,until I get out the shower
Zen Arado: unbearably*
Avy Runner: hi Chi
Zen Arado: hi Chi
Calvino Rabeni: My autopilot is on the "blink"
Sunshine Vayandar: hi Chi
Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Chi :)
Chi Aho: Hello everyone
Mickorod Renard: Hi Chi
Ataraxia Azemus: My autopilot takes a good half hour to get up and running...
Zen Arado: so it's great to have a nice holiday to look forward to
Zen Arado: ?
Avy Runner: oh..... let's not talk about my auto-pilot then :)
Mitsu Ishii: Well the main point of Trungpa's notion is just this idea that we surround ourselves with habitual ideas which give us a sense of defeat, doom.
Ataraxia Azemus: lol Avy
Dao Yheng: I find that sitting in the morning helps me ease into things
Mitsu Ishii: "We possess what is known as basic goodness. Then we develop an overlay of unnecessary tricks and occupations. We develop little tricks to shield ourselves from being embarrassed-or from feeling too painful or naked."
Mickorod Renard: but it would be nice to have a great holiday of a life to get up to each morning
Zen Arado: so he is saying we shouldn't use these escapist devices?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, all these conditions ... but they're skills of coordinating too with what the world seems to require
Calvino Rabeni: playing the games we've learned and doing the steps
Calvino Rabeni: they are the dance steps of cooperation, not just escapist
Mickorod Renard: mmm a conditioning to what we think the world expects of us
Zen Arado: we give ourselves little treats to look forward to
oO0Oo Resident: lids and flowers
Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Dali :)
Zen Arado: I think it is just resistance to what is
Mickorod Renard: sound like attachments
Sunshine Vayandar: hi Dali
Mickorod Renard: Hi dali
Zen Arado: hi Dali
Avy Runner: hi Dali
Mitsu Ishii: he's saying that the little tricks we use to shield ourselves from embarrassment or pain ultimately end up stifling us
Calvino Rabeni: We were talking about tension in the play as being meeting
Dao Yheng: I suppose we can turn even meditation in to an escapist device --
Calvino Rabeni: "resistance" is of that type
Mitsu Ishii: and leading to what he calls a "setting sun" mentality
Zen Arado: yes Dao
Calvino Rabeni: resistance is something that needs to claim the positive basic goodness underneath
Avy Runner: yes I think so Dao
Mitsu Ishii: the irony is, they are tricks we use to protect ourselves, but ultimately they backfire and surround us like a wall
Avy Runner: I even think a lot of meditations are done that way
Zen Arado: we need to see the resistance first though
Zen Arado: ?
Mickorod Renard: yes Mitsu,,like control
Zen Arado: yes Mitsu
Calvino Rabeni: it may be a "wall" - it's more often a "channel" where we're successful and get a lot out of it
Zen Arado: we build a nice cocoon
Calvino Rabeni: yet are not as free as we could be
Avy Runner: channel, I like that word
Dao Yheng: anything can be turned into a help or a hinderance
Calvino Rabeni: the enabling habits - the ones we don't experience as suffereing - are limits also
Mickorod Renard: I am much more free and open these days,,its much more liberating
oO0Oo Resident: near enemies Cal?
Dao Yheng: that sounds great Mickorod
Mickorod Renard: I guess its like taking off a ton of bullet proof armour
Calvino Rabeni: Have you ever acquired a skill or a "way" ... and felt like - I'm good - damn, now I'll be stuck with this
Mitsu Ishii: if we can be more radically present and simple that means also being more naked
Sunshine Vayandar: what do u mean by enabling habits Cal?
Avy Runner: yes Cal, but can be 'used'
Mitsu Ishii: in some sense more vulnerable, more open to whatever, positive and negative
Calvino Rabeni: I mean useful habits that get good things done
Mitsu Ishii: but that leaves us also open to this fundamental basic goodness at the core of our being. that's basically what Trungpa is talking about there
Zen Arado: yes - it sounds simple Mitsu
Zen Arado: why don't we do it?
Sunshine Vayandar: kk
oO0Oo Resident: that's where warriorship comes in
Dao Yheng: :))
Zen Arado: just staying in what is with no resistance
Anastasia Genesis: how does the warriorship come in?
Zen Arado: yes Sam
Avy Runner: warriorship yes
Mickorod Renard: resistance is futile
Mickorod Renard: :)
Dao Yheng: ha ha!
oO0Oo Resident: the willingness to be in the ungrounded vulnerability
Avy Runner: :)
Calvino Rabeni: The squeaky wheel gets the oil .... attention goes to the things that don't work .. but the successful habits are limiting too, they can be "machines"
Zen Arado: well put Sam
Calvino Rabeni: and when trying to break out of the successful channel .. ackkk, :) there's the fear
oO0Oo Resident: yes but first a gap
Zen Arado: yes - we like our habitual ways - they worked in the past
Zen Arado: for a while anyway
Zen Arado: a gap?
Mickorod Renard: and also we have attachments we accept as wanting to keep
Mickorod Renard: like kids
Mickorod Renard: and a house
Mitsu Ishii: it's hard to give up these tricks
Anastasia Genesis: like kids with toys?
Mitsu Ishii: defense mechanisms, reactions, etc.
Dao Yheng: my fav is the evils of "good meditation experiences"
Mitsu Ishii: expectations and so forth
Mickorod Renard: ?
Zen Arado: maybe it not these things but placing expectatins on them that they should make us happy?
Avy Runner: I think the thing is to become aware of the habits and use them to our own and others benefit
Calvino Rabeni: yes, Dao :)
Avy Runner: as a step 'in between' so to speak
oO0Oo Resident: before the limitless, or the habitual take place... a gap
Zen Arado: an awareness gap?
Anastasia Genesis: i like that Avy
Calvino Rabeni: The in between is interesting because there's little identity there
Avy Runner: (right Dao :), reading back a little )
oO0Oo Resident: yes
oO0Oo Resident: pays to notice
Mitsu Ishii: right it's not any particular action or activity that's the problem, it's the way we do it. we do it while expecting it to turn out a certain way, or trying to pretend it can't go awry or something.
Mitsu Ishii: when it does, or we fear it does, the doom starts to close in
Zen Arado: we're doomed :)
Dao Yheng: yup, yup!
Zen Arado: sorry
Avy Runner: good to know, so whats next :)
oO0Oo Resident: we're doomed to wake up
Mickorod Renard: mm yes,,I was always too fidgety to go fishing
Ataraxia Azemus: Being closed to openness?
Zen Arado: hope so Sam
Zen Arado: just have to allow it
oO0Oo Resident: and give up hope
Zen Arado: and not play our usual tricks
Calvino Rabeni: How about the rhetoric of "awakening" .. what do you make of that?
Mickorod Renard: each day should be like going fishing,,maybe u catch something maybe not,,and accept it as a good day out anyway
Avy Runner: giving up hope, yes
Mickorod Renard: I dont fish though
Zen Arado: when I used to fish I had to catch something
oO0Oo Resident: our hooks will snag things
Mitsu Ishii: there's a hilarious youtube video I found a few days ago which somehow captures this in a strange way http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w27vHZxxvW4
oO0Oo Resident: we can notice
oO0Oo Resident: and touch and go
Zen Arado: but nicely put Mick
Mitsu Ishii: you can watch it later -- it's several minutes but worth watchng to the end :)
oO0Oo Resident: ty mitsu
Zen Arado: thanks for link Mitsu
Zen Arado: everyone is watching it now
Mitsu Ishii: haha
Calvino Rabeni: Not me .. :)
Avy Runner: :)
Dao Yheng: :)) Mits loves this video
Calvino Rabeni: BUt if you are, I wouldn't mind a report :)
Dao Yheng: they are having an argument over a store which is closed
Zen Arado: a lot of resistance to a shop that is closed
Dao Yheng: their whole world is falling apart!
Dao Yheng: tears are flowing!
Zen Arado: why can't it be open?
Calvino Rabeni: Humor is a great thing
Avy Runner: I like it :)
Dao Yheng: ok, reconciling to the closed store now
Avy Runner: and then if finally 'opens'........
Zen Arado: and when it does open they don't seem worried about going in
Dao Yheng: hee hee! Wow, I feel like we just went to the movies together
Avy Runner: you need to see it
Anastasia Genesis: rich use of language
Chi Aho: This comes from not knowing what is important
Zen Arado: the moral is.....
oO0Oo Resident: ty for the accounts
Anastasia Genesis: yes Zen?
Mitsu Ishii: I think Armisen and Brownstein have a strange comedic insight there into the nature of life
Zen Arado: how much we upset ourselves over things not going the way we want them to?
Zen Arado: what do you think?
Mitsu Ishii: because of course it seems absurd to overreact to a store being closed but in fact many of the things we react to in real life aren't really much more significant than that
Mitsu Ishii: so they kind of play this up by setting up an intentionally silly example
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: overdramatised to make the point
Mitsu Ishii: even better that the store wasn't actually closed, which is in a way another Dharma lesson
Avy Runner: I like the different emotions that seems to follow each other up, until some numbness appears
Dao Yheng: it's true -- especially on a friday night in NY, when everyone's beat up from a week of work but wanting to have fun, you can see this scenario play out in front of bars, restaurants, etc
Mitsu Ishii: we often react to the label (what our thoughts tell us is going on) rather than really finding out what is really the case
Anastasia Genesis: oh yes it must be a pretty general scenario
Anastasia Genesis: here made specific and easier to identify with
Avy Runner: and maybe that is the depression that is meant by Trungpa
Zen Arado: I hadf three scenarios myself today
Calvino Rabeni: I was noticing recently, how much people think with words, rather than through them
Anastasia Genesis: three scenarios?
Avy Runner: true Cal
Calvino Rabeni likes scenarios
oO0Oo Resident: ?? Cal
Zen Arado: my disabled bus broke down so I didn't get to my art club
Zen Arado: then the man who takes me to RL meditation had an accident coming to pick me up so didn't get to that
Anastasia Genesis: sounds like a great day for meditating on lessons learnt Zen
Zen Arado: and them my phone wouldn't work but found bad connection :)
Avy Runner: :)
Dao Yheng: oh yes, and then it's so easy to wonder, is this a conspiracy?
Dao Yheng: am I meant to have a BAD DAY???
Anastasia Genesis: what was your RL reaction Zen?
Avy Runner: right
Zen Arado: noticed I didn't worry too much
Mickorod Renard: sorry,,crashed
oO0Oo Resident: :) Zen
Zen Arado: hope that doesn't sound boastful
Dao Yheng: nice!
Anastasia Genesis: sounds awesome to me :)
Zen Arado: I still got here
Mitsu Ishii: :)
Dao Yheng: not at all, very inspiring zen!
Anastasia Genesis: very brave
Dao Yheng: (wb Mick)
Mickorod Renard: what was that Zen?
Zen Arado: thought how much worse if I had that accident
oO0Oo Resident: and here.. is always here for us
Mickorod Renard: :ty
Zen Arado: and having to deal with insurance claim etc
Anastasia Genesis: dont we all hate the bureaucracy of filling in forms
Zen Arado: just my bad day Mick
Mickorod Renard: owwww
Zen Arado: me especially
Zen Arado: have to work on that one :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Zen Arado: not owning a car sure cuts down on that
Avy Runner: I notice though that at some days it seems to be easier to deal with those kind of things then other days
Mickorod Renard: I think the more aware we are the harder we are on ourselves though
Ataraxia Azemus: I had a bad day at the start of the week...it's always worse when you walk into it expecting a good day, instead of just rolling with the changes
Zen Arado: yes Avy
Avy Runner: there seems to be always a moment popping up in which you suddenly feel all those old habitual emotions again
Zen Arado: and really trivial things get us upset
Anastasia Genesis: could it depend on how much we are accustomed to take?
Dao Yheng: do you have a sense for why it goes one way or the other avy?
Anastasia Genesis: a tipping point
Zen Arado: triggers something from the pst maybe
Zen Arado: yes
Avy Runner: yes triggers for sure
Dao Yheng: oh, good observations, Ana and Zen
Avy Runner: but it also seems to depend on our resistence
Avy Runner: like a river that floods
Anastasia Genesis: yes there is a point when our resistance crashes on its own
Avy Runner: at some points is has a lot of space to flood land
Zen Arado: but we can notice that trigger maybe
Avy Runner: at some points it doesn't
Avy Runner: and can brake through at a sudden moment
Anastasia Genesis: we construct damms but some work some dont
Avy Runner: yes Ana and I think triggers are important Zen
Anastasia Genesis: and here you seem to be saying we should remove those damms
Zen Arado: it shows us something about ourself
Avy Runner: it shows us something about ourselves
Anastasia Genesis: let things be
oO0Oo Resident: journey itself... letting it be the goal
Zen Arado: snap Avy
Avy Runner: snap
Avy Runner: shoot :)
Dao Yheng: :))
Zen Arado: :)
Dao Yheng: it's a triple snap moment
Dao Yheng: like skipping stones on the water :)
Avy Runner: yes, i should have sad snap again :)
oO0Oo Resident: snap
oO0Oo Resident: happy
Mickorod Renard: :)
Zen Arado: a sad snap :)
Avy Runner: hehehe
Avy Runner: sad = said, but anyway......
Chi Aho: Enjoyed the chat, but rl calls; bye all
Dao Yheng: OK, before I forget, we usually post these logs on the wiki -- if someone doesn't want their name included, can you IM me?
oO0Oo Resident smiles at Avy
Avy Runner: bye Chi
Dao Yheng: bye Chi!
Ataraxia Azemus: Take care, Chi
Zen Arado: bye Chi
Sunshine Vayandar: byebye Chi
Mickorod Renard: bye chi
Ataraxia Azemus: Tchk. Half second too late
oO0Oo Resident: Tai Chi
Mitsu Ishii: bye
Ataraxia Azemus: Sam :)
Avy Runner: (who is sam?)
Zen Arado: I kept thinking that too Sam :)
Zen Arado: oo0oo is Sam
Dao Yheng: And zen had a nice suggestion for next week -- give me a sec, I'll dig it up
Calvino Rabeni: for some reason oO00Oo is also "sam"
oO0Oo Resident: green eggs and ham
Avy Runner: ah, ok..... couldn't find Sam :)
Ataraxia Azemus: Yes, please :)
Zen Arado: I can't spell the last bit :)
Dao Yheng: oh, the eggs!
Dao Yheng: From Zen: My question was simply about enlightenment, awakening, Nirvana, whatever you want to call it. What is it? Does it exist? Is it a wonderful, blissful, higher state or quite ordinary? Have we got it already? If not, how do we get it? And does the seeking for it prevent us from reaching it, whatever it is?
Zen Arado: and you added a bit Dao?
Mitsu Ishii: good question.
Dao Yheng: From Dao: "what does enlightenment mean to me and how am I trying to get it (or not get it)"
Mickorod Renard: yes lovely
Calvino Rabeni: That's a strong subject :)
oO0Oo Resident: lol
Mickorod Renard: like a good cheese
Sunshine Vayandar: when is the next meeting? would love to hear about that ;))
Avy Runner: if we can answer that next week :)
Dao Yheng: We meet here every Thursday
Sunshine Vayandar: ty Dao
Zen Arado: hoping somebody knows :)
Dao Yheng: Same time (2pm SLT)
Sunshine Vayandar: ok
oO0Oo Resident: there is a move: enlightenment gauranteed
Mickorod Renard: please remind me if you see me next thursday
oO0Oo Resident: mvie*
oO0Oo Resident: movie*
Zen Arado: is there a link Sam?
Mickorod Renard: btw,,i had a nice lil dream that has strange wok type issues in it
Dao Yheng: oh, do tell, Mick!
oO0Oo Resident: will find Zen...
Zen Arado: yes Mick?
Ataraxia Azemus imagined cookware issues for half a second...
Mickorod Renard: well,,i am best to give it out next week
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: stir frying Mick?
Ataraxia Azemus: hehe :)
Mickorod Renard: although I could give Dao one now so doa can see if its appropriate
Avy Runner: sorry everyone, I really need to go
Mickorod Renard: :)
Avy Runner: hope to see you all next week
Zen Arado: bye Avy
Mickorod Renard: bye Avi
Ataraxia Azemus: Take care, Avy
Sunshine Vayandar: ty all it was very enlightening ;)
Dao Yheng: ooh, that's too juicy
Ataraxia Azemus: And Sunshine :)
Dao Yheng: lovely to see you avy
Dao Yheng: and sunshine!
Calvino Rabeni: I'm glad you stopped in, Sunshine
Sunshine Vayandar: byebyeee all take care ;)
oO0Oo Resident: bye Sun :)
Ataraxia Azemus: I think I'm going to head out, too so...take care everyone :)
Zen Arado: thanks Sam
oO0Oo Resident: :) Atar
Dao Yheng: Good night ata
Zen Arado: bye Sun
Zen Arado: bye Atax
Anastasia Genesis: gtg too bye everyone!
Zen Arado: bye anas
oO0Oo Resident: :) Ana
Mitsu Ishii: bye everyone
Mickorod Renard: bye folks leaving
Mitsu Ishii is Offline
Zen Arado: bye Mitsu
oO0Oo Resident: :) Mitsu