10.13.2011 - Metaphor: Treat or Trap?

 

Be Ewing: All - Hi :)

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Be!

Bruce Mowbray: Welcome!

Be Ewing: thank you

Be Ewing: amazing what changing keyboards can do:)

Bruce Mowbray: I did that myself just today!!

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Pila!

Bruce Mowbray: Always good to see you.

Pila Mulligan: greetings

Be Ewing: Hi Pila ;)

oO0Oo: Hi Pila, Aph, Bruce :)

oO0Oo: and BE!

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, 0!

Bruce Mowbray: Good to see you again!

Pila Mulligan: hi

Be Ewing: Sam -- good to see you again too -- and Eliza :)

Eliza Madrigal: Aloha :)

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Eliza!

oO0Oo: Hey Eliza :)

Mickorod Renard: Hiya

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, San!

Eliza Madrigal: Hi everyone, so nice to see you all

Bruce Mowbray: Good to see you too, Eliza!

Eliza Madrigal: thanks :)

Agatha Macbeth: Bonjour tout le monde :)

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Aggers!

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Agatha :)

Mickorod Renard: Ags

Bruce Mowbray hopes Cal will attend -- His excellent essay is not to be missed:

http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Guardian_Pages/Guardians%27_Contributions/Calvino/Ways_of_Knowing/Metaphors_about_Metaphors

Aphrodite Macbain: Hi all

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aph

Be Ewing: Hi to All :)

Eliza Madrigal: :)

Aphrodite Macbain: Hye Be

Be Ewing: I was scanning Cal's essay

oO0Oo passes round platter with refreshments... hangs on to a donut and coffee ;)

Be Ewing: there is much to it

Bruce Mowbray: Well, I guess I don't need to ask if this group is still alive and kicking!

oO0Oo: care is in the air

Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

Be Ewing: wondering over here if I have kick gesture in inventory:)

oO0Oo: lol

Be Ewing: yes much care

Aphrodite Macbain: I have a boot to the head gesture

 

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Fc!

Be Ewing: :)

Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Fc

Eliza Madrigal sings ::yeah I get a kick out of you...::::

FcSeeker: Hi all

Pila Mulligan: :)

Aphrodite Macbain: prefer champagne

Eliza Madrigal: Hi FcS :)

Aphrodite Macbain: Fc is hiding behind Brucy's knees

Be Ewing: better than I got a boot out of you? ... but even that can be interpreted multiple different ways

oO0Oo: Hi Fc !

Be Ewing: Nice to see you Fc :)

FcSeeker: Be Pila Eliza Aph Aggers Bruce O Mick san

Eliza Madrigal: :)) Be

Chawan (Taupe): Don't you feel at one with nature now, Eliza Madrigal, so peaceful and relaxed.

oO0Oo: Be oot to the head

Aphrodite Macbain: Cal's essay is excellent but very meaty. Hard to digest right away

Mickorod Renard: I guess I missed Cal's piece, I am very lapse at reading the mails etc

Aphrodite Macbain: Boot to da head.

Santoshima: what?

Mickorod Renard: ouch

Be Ewing: Boot to my computer helps me often

Agatha Macbeth: Ow

oO0Oo wonders what Cal would be like if he ever became smart... lol

Aphrodite Macbain: never mind

Be Ewing: :)

Mickorod Renard: :)

Be Ewing: words are so imprecise

Aphrodite Macbain: unbearable

Mickorod Renard: I don't suppose you have a handy copy

Be Ewing: and lots of people love to play with them too

Aphrodite Macbain: look up, look waaaaay up

Bruce Mowbray: Yeah, the essay is a mind-blower -- a blinding light -- a photo-electric cell of great magnitude.

Aphrodite Macbain: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Guardian_Pages/Guardians'_Contributions/Calvino/Ways_of_Knowing/Metaphors_about_Metaphors

Aphrodite Macbain: there you are Mick

Mickorod Renard: thanks

Be Ewing: and that's just in English too:)

oO0Oo: hehe

Aphrodite Macbain: meerde alors

Bruce Mowbray: Let's begin.

Be Ewing: I can only imagine what that essay might translate too in multiple different languages

oO0Oo: like a super nova under the covers

Bruce Mowbray listens.

oO0Oo listens

Aphrodite Macbain listens

Bruce Mowbray: It (Cal's essay) makes the earth shake for moi.

Aphrodite Macbain: for those who have had a chance to have read and digested it, could they give a summary?

Aphrodite Macbain: Are we discussing Cal's paper, Bruce?

Bruce Mowbray: Scroll down to "A Tentative Summary" -- and there's the beef.

oO0Oo: for those who have not done their homework?

Aphrodite Macbain: oh good. thanks

Aphrodite Macbain blushes

Bruce Mowbray: I don't know what we're discussing -- I am open to the group's preferences.

Bruce Mowbray: The theme is "Metaphors - Treat or Trap"

Bruce Mowbray: Personally, I'd like to discuss metaphor as a way of knowing.

Bruce Mowbray: -- perhaps a way of connecting experiences.

Aphrodite Macbain: and I'd like to consider how they are traps

Be Ewing: they can be both

Aphrodite Macbain: how they may up restricting how we think about things

Be Ewing: they can help bridge communication between/among people

Aphrodite Macbain: Everything Cal says in his summary points out the usefulness of metaphors

Be Ewing: but -- some can used them -- as excuse to trap/attack people

Be Ewing: to show their one ups-manship for example

Be Ewing: also legally they can be dangerous

Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm I wasn't thinking about an aggressive trap. Rather a trap that restricts the way we think about things

Be Ewing: ah

Bruce Mowbray: My mother: "You know males; they have to play with their toys." (weapons, from cap guns to atomic bombs).

Bruce Mowbray: Couldn't every "frame" be a sort of trap?

Aphrodite Macbain: Like our discussions in email about the metaphor of the river

Bruce Mowbray: yes, please say more, Aph.

Aphrodite Macbain: (too bad Zen's not here)

Be Ewing: A meandering way?

Aphrodite Macbain: No, I talked about watching the river - as in the world going by the way it will

Be Ewing: river I mean?

Bruce Mowbray: Are you referring to Zen's metaphor, "I am the river"?

Aphrodite Macbain: and Zen said , no, it should be considered not as something to be watched but something to be within, part of it

Aphrodite Macbain: yes, Bruce

Be Ewing: well it can be both

Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

Aphrodite Macbain: Yes.

Aphrodite Macbain: but it felt like it had to be either/or

Be Ewing: ah

Be Ewing: I don't do well with either/or :)

Aphrodite Macbain: each person using a metaphor may have their own understanding of it which could be inapplicable to others

Bruce Mowbray: It seems to me that Zen had a pretty clear "frame" in mind with that metaphor -- and it had nothing to do with his ability to swim - or not.

Be Ewing: Aph ... agreed

Aphrodite Macbain: Be, do you want to say more?

Be Ewing: Aph -- not quite right now

Aphrodite Macbain: ok

Be Ewing: but thanks for asking

Aphrodite Macbain: So I was going to say that metaphors can be useful to explain something complex or abstract but

Aphrodite Macbain: at the same time it perhaps simplifies the issues because it is simplifying it

Aphrodite Macbain: Hmm

Bruce Mowbray: Cal says: "They provide efficient, nuanced communication that references multiple levels of knowing at once."

Aphrodite Macbain: And everyone has their own understanding of the metaphor or allegory that is given

Aphrodite Macbain: Right

Aphrodite Macbain: But I don't know if they are all that efficient

Bruce Mowbray: so "multiple levels" can be different things to different folks.

Be Ewing: true

Aphrodite Macbain: I'll be quiet now...:-)

Be Ewing: "multiple levels' means many, many things to me

Be Ewing: your thoughts are wonderful, Aph.

Mickorod Renard: I think a metaphor does simplify 'it' but at the same time is not an exact reference and thus the listener has to unravel it a little, and in this way helps it become untangled

Be Ewing: Aph -- please keep talking

Bruce Mowbray: Just a neutral question --  (Don't want to raise any eyebrows, here, but. . . ) Is "pure awareness" a metaphor that can be understood on multiple levels" Or does it mean ONE THING?

Aphrodite Macbain: good question, Bruce

Bruce Mowbray: (scary question, Aph)

Eliza Madrigal: yes like to leave unraveling space, Mick :)

FcSeeker: Hello Ari

Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Ari

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ari :)

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Ari!

Be Ewing: Bruce -- I would say multiple levels

Arisia Vita: Hi all, so good to see you

Mickorod Renard: Hi Ari

Agatha Macbeth: Ari :)

Be Ewing: meaning "pure awareness" includes all

Pila Mulligan: hi Ari

Be Ewing: at same time though that all can be just one

Bruce Mowbray: Cal, again: "They provide poetic or artistic means of expression and communication." ("pure awareness" -- artistic expression?)

Be Ewing: so depends whether you are talking about/meaning one, all or both concepts

Aphrodite Macbain: I suppose the question might be, what purpose does a metaphor best serve, and where is it misleading?

Bruce Mowbray: The metaphor seems to be a "mix", Be.

Aphrodite Macbain: Mixed metaphors are particularly perplexing!

Be Ewing: multiple levels of perception/dimensions then

Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

Aphrodite Macbain: I'm curious what others might think

Bruce Mowbray: It seems to me that the "power" and effectiveness of metaphors is in their ability to bring together different "levels" and different experiences - - - participation, connection, integration.

Aphrodite Macbain: Can you give an example of that Bruce?

Bruce Mowbray: Sure.

Bruce Mowbray: Here is a poem by Carl Sandburg:

Bruce Mowbray:

The voice of the last cricket

 across the first frost

 is one kind of Goodbye.

 

It is so thin a splinter

 of singing.

 

 ("Splinter" by Carl Sandburg)

 

Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps someone who has not spoken yet would care to comment on the "different levels" and different "worlds" brought together here.

Aphrodite Macbain: how are different levels of experiences brought together?

Bruce Mowbray: Do crickets have voices? - - - Do you?

Aphrodite Macbain: Pila? Fc? Aggers?

Agatha Macbeth: 42

Bruce Mowbray: Do crickets say "Goodbye"? Do you?

Aphrodite Macbain: wrong number

Bruce Mowbray: 42!!!!

Agatha Macbeth: Doh

Bruce Mowbray: I love it!

Agatha Macbeth: Or 666...

Aphrodite Macbain: yikes

Bruce Mowbray: Cal, again: "They support the presence and participation of body and emotion in the process of thinking, expressing, communicating."

Bruce Mowbray: a cricket rubs it's legs together and Sandburg calls that a "voice" saying "goodbye."

FcSeeker: in case I understood right what crickets is, I'd say 'they talk a lot' :)<3<3<3

Aphrodite Macbain: Can we apply the same principles to allegories as we are doing to metaphors?

Bruce Mowbray: :)))))))  @ Fc!!!!!

Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth hugs FC

Bruce Mowbray: they sing until the first frost, Fc.

Aphrodite Macbain: then they are very thinly quiet

Bruce Mowbray: excellent question, Aph.

FcSeeker: (the sound when you step the ice to be broken; that's crickets ?)

Bruce Mowbray: Oh beautiful, Fc. . . another poem in the works, there!

Bruce Mowbray: Allegory: This^1 is to that^1 as this^2 is to that^2.   ("abc" is to "def" as "pqr" is to "?") -- "stu"?

 

Actually, I thought a whole lot about Aph's question during this week. . .  and I "concluded" that allegories are elaborate metaphors - - and also more precise.  Therefore, computer programs can be written to do allegories ---  but I'm not clear about whether they can do metaphors, yet. -- Bruce

 

 

Aphrodite Macbain: If no one has anything to contribute, I can quote a story that was given today. I'd be curious if everyone gets the same "moral" from it.

Be Ewing: (crickets are small animals usually live between spring and winter)

Bruce Mowbray listens.

Agatha Macbeth: He's a poetic panda :)

Aphrodite Macbain: or a simile

Mickorod Renard: sounds good Aph

Aphrodite Macbain: OK here goes;

Aphrodite Macbain: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Guardian_Pages/Guardians'_Contributions/Calvino/Ways_of_Knowing/Metaphors_about_Metaphors

FcSeeker: ahhh

FcSeeker: lol

FcSeeker: ok

Aphrodite Macbain: oopps. wrong thing. Hold on

Bruce Mowbray: ;-) so good to see someone else does that!

Aphrodite Macbain: OK by Moon Fargis:

Aphrodite Macbain: Moon Fargis:

Once a Man lost his Loving wife. While his wife was dying, he gave her the promise that that he will not marry again.

 

 The man remain truthful to his dead wife for a while but destiny had stored some thing else for him. He fell in love again.

 

 He fell so deep in love that he forgot about his promise and he married again. Its natural for a man to forget promises, wedding dates, and birthday but a woman always cherishes these things.

 

 On his wedding Night he saw his dead wife's Ghost, who complained about the broken promise. The man was surprised to see the ghost of his dead wife but now he could do nothing about it, so he kept quite. But his dead wife ghost could not accept this betrayal and She kept coming back everyday and telling word by word what transpires between the man and his new wife.

 

Tired by complaints and threats from the Ghost one day the man went to a Sage. The Sage said "the Ghost is very intelligent. Next time she comes, just pick one handful of grain from a sack and ask her how many grains are there in your hand."

 

When the Ghost came that night, the man did the same. He filled his hand with grains from a sack and asked the Ghost, "Tell me how many grains are there in my hand?" The Ghost immediately disappeared and never returned again.

 

 Most of time what we believe and see in this world is a Projection of our mind. We can only see those things which we are already aware of. The mind projects things from the past. That Ghost was a creation of the mind and so are most of our problems. If we stop projecting things then 99% of our problems will disappear like the Ghost in this story.

Aphrodite Macbain: So ...

Aphrodite Macbain: is that the moral you got from the story?

Agatha Macbeth: I hate it when stuff vanishes before you can read it.

Aphrodite Macbain: Nobody in the group agreed.

Be Ewing: Be in the Now is what I got

Bruce Mowbray thinks, ghostly.

Aphrodite Macbain: scroll up Aggers, scroll up

Be Ewing: that often we just haunt ourselves

Agatha Macbeth: S'okay i read it from chat :p

Aphrodite Macbain: so, that's B's take.

Bruce Mowbray: modern psychology, of course, would say that the ghost itself was a projection. . . but that begs the question.

Mickorod Renard: I thought his dead wife was selfish

oO0Oo pokes Aggers while she scrolls

Aphrodite Macbain: I could not see the pint of the handful of grain

Mickorod Renard: :)

Agatha Macbeth: (owww)

Aphrodite Macbain: or point

Agatha Macbeth: Pint of grain please

Aphrodite Macbain: there's no point to this

Bruce Mowbray loves "We haunt ourselves."

Agatha Macbeth: We do

Aphrodite Macbain: me too

Eliza Madrigal: yes

oO0Oo nods

Aphrodite Macbain: Eliza, what do you think?

oO0Oo: notice the haunting... that moment when..

Aphrodite Macbain: when...?

Eliza Madrigal: made me think of grounding but then, I'm practical with ghosts

oO0Oo: awareness happens

FcSeeker: brb

Eliza Madrigal: :)

Aphrodite Macbain: what is more important, the awareness or the moment it happens?

oO0Oo: an instant when we could be any metaphor

Aphrodite Macbain: I could think of a number

Agatha Macbeth: and double it

oO0Oo: scary opportunity... but before that judgement just the openness

FcSeeker: b

Arisia Vita: wb

oO0Oo: wb

Bruce Mowbray: If we are completely "open," then everything can "participate in/as/with us.

Agatha Macbeth: wb, FC

Aphrodite Macbain: openness = awareness?

FcSeeker: ty

Bruce Mowbray: I think that "silence" is another of those metaphors. . .

Mickorod Renard: many things, like metaphors or even parables mean things to the person at that place in their life, and at another time and place something different

oO0Oo: worth looking into

Aphrodite Macbain: my point was that there are so many ways to read a metaphor or an allegory depending on what culture you are from that I wonder about its usefulness

Bruce Mowbray: I have never known "silence" -- I can always hear my heart beating and my nervous system in operation. . . but that's a literal interpretation of silence. . .

Eliza Madrigal: the silent cave of Eden's haiku... and so agree Mick

Aphrodite Macbain: agreed Mick

Be Ewing: Bruce -- what about when you space out? veg out? zone out? ... whatever you call it

FcSeeker: the story is difficult to this panda because all else is possible to happen in RL/SL, but that the ghost would go away for such question...

Bruce Mowbray: So, "silence" as Eden uses it means something else. . . something much larger.

Be Ewing: for example, it happens when daydreaming -- one example

Aphrodite Macbain: a quiet brain?

Be Ewing: yes Aph

FcSeeker: so I might be too serious minded person to make any opinions of the story

Arisia Vita: welcome Cal

Be Ewing: a quiet brain

Bruce Mowbray ponders Be's question.

FcSeeker: Hello Cal

Aphrodite Macbain looks around for Cal.Welcome Cal

Be Ewing: that's often where issues get resolved for me -- when the jigsaw puzzle begins to complete itself

Mickorod Renard: Hi cal

Be Ewing: when solutions just appear

oO0Oo: layers of abstraction... in communication... metaphors of a kind of exponential possibility and wormhole like splash of meaning, but as with all communication... there is assumption and constant approximation... serendipity gives wonder moments

FcSeeker: but...rises something else to tell...

Bruce Mowbray: Eden wrote:

 

 ::: When it's beyond words

 ::: Silence is a healing cave

 ::: _/!\_

 

Agatha Macbeth: Hello Cal, don't be shy

Arisia Vita: leave that to me Cal :)

Agatha Macbeth: Ha

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Calvino

oO0Oo: Hi cal

Bruce Mowbray: We've been quoting you right and left, Cal (or I have, anyway). Welcome!

Calvino Rabeni: Hi everyone

Eliza Madrigal is being fed avocado slices by sushi-making daughter, so that I won't haunt her about her room

Be Ewing: Cal -- good to see/meet you:)

Mickorod Renard: hi cal,,:)

Calvino Rabeni: :) I have tech probs today

Agatha Macbeth: He's doing a Susan today :p

oO0Oo: ::round of applause for Cal's essay::

Bruce Mowbray: [`·.] APPLAUSE!! [.·´]

Calvino Rabeni: ty :)

Aphrodite Macbain APPLAUDS!!!

Bruce Mowbray: [`·.] APPLAUSE!! [.·´]

Arisia Vita: claps

Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth claps

Mickorod Renard: yeyyy

Aphrodite Macbain: shy guy

Agatha Macbeth: Take a bow CR

Aphrodite Macbain APPLAUDS!!!

Bruce Mowbray: Brilliantly written, Cal. THANK you!

Be Ewing: APPLAUSE!!!!

Agatha Macbeth: and don't walk into the wall :D

Calvino Rabeni BLUSHES

Aphrodite Macbain: yayy

Agatha Macbeth: (must be laggy)

Bruce Mowbray: So, I'm still concerned with this "framing" thing -- and it makes me think of last week's question about whether metaphors can be "evil" - or used for evil purposes.

Bruce Mowbray: perhaps "unethical" is a better term.

Aphrodite Macbain: I don't understand why this was a question

Agatha Macbeth: Can't everything?

Be Ewing: Bruce -- I believe they can by judges for example sometimes

Aphrodite Macbain: exactly, aggers

Be Ewing: but I don't have any literal quotes

Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth smiles

Be Ewing: I am not a student of words -- excuse me

Aphrodite Macbain: I think Boxy said that but amended his statement to "useful and not useful"

Bruce Mowbray: but not unethical?

Calvino Rabeni: Nice turnout ! Thanks Bruce for all your care and setup :)

Aphrodite Macbain: many things can be unethical

Agatha Macbeth: Yay for Brucie

Bruce Mowbray: Mitt Romney: Those protestors in New York are a MOB!"

Aphrodite Macbain: why focus on metaphors?

Bruce Mowbray: incrimination through association.

Bruce Mowbray: verbal/semantic association.

Bruce Mowbray: metaphoric association.

Be Ewing: What is your definition of ethical? ... similar to Beauty is in Eye of Beholder? ... or an absolute? .. and if an absolute how do you define it?

Bruce Mowbray: OK -- How about this one:

Bruce Mowbray: Einstein said that God does not play dice with the universe.

Bruce Mowbray: Is that an ethical metaphor?

Be Ewing: I see it as a personal opinion

Aphrodite Macbain: and it is open to interpretation

Be Ewing: much, much interpretation

Mickorod Renard: and relative to a point he was making

Eliza Madrigal nods

Bruce Mowbray has images of gambling. . . . dens of iniquity. . .

Aphrodite Macbain: we need a context for any metaphor

Calvino Rabeni: I think no opinion is purely personal, especially if it becomes current in a culture's ways of thinking, it is political

Be Ewing: /well Einstein did play around on occasions:)

oO0Oo has images of images

Bruce Mowbray: Was his "framing" ethical?

Aphrodite Macbain: neither ethical nor unethical

Bruce Mowbray: What was the point? ------- He was trying to combat quantum mechanics -- and randomness.

Aphrodite Macbain: what does it matter?

Be Ewing: all things are energy -- exactly

Aphrodite Macbain: whether it was ethical or not within the context of this discussion?

Be Ewing: so where does all this matter come into play?

Bruce Mowbray: It is an example of how metaphors can be used unethically -- I feel..... by setting up a certain framework for future knowing.

Aphrodite Macbain: what is the question?

Aphrodite Macbain: are metaphors useful? or are they always ethical?

Mickorod Renard: I think his point was, and I may be wrong, that there is an explanation for things, something that could be calculated, rather than not

Bruce Mowbray: the question is ways of knowing. . . and how metaphors contribute to that . . . and whether metaphors can be used in unethical ways. . . by framing something in a biased way.

FcSeeker: is it metaphor to create an image in mind and give it foreword ?

Aphrodite Macbain: you are talking about the Einstein's quote Mick?

Mickorod Renard: sorry yes

Bruce Mowbray: yes, Mick, a universe of ORDER -- not a random one. . . But to call in images of gambling?

Aphrodite Macbain: and my point is that we don't know what he meant- or we can't agree, so how useful is it as a metaphor?

Bruce Mowbray: OK, then we cannot call a metaphor unethical?

Be Ewing: okay ... so why do we use words at all and why do we have so many wordsmiths among us?

Aphrodite Macbain: should metaphors be universally understood one way to be useful?

Mickorod Renard: I think it is useful, cos most folk believe that gambling is reckless

Calvino Rabeni: The metaphor suggests there's something slightly dangerous about regarding the universe as random

Calvino Rabeni: unseemly

Calvino Rabeni: so it says something

Calvino Rabeni: ethical

Be Ewing: I am neutral to gambling -- like most everything it can be good and it can be bad -- but you can't have one of those without the other

Aphrodite Macbain: god is unethical?

Calvino Rabeni: randomness might be associated with nihilism or a dissipatory life-style

Calvino Rabeni: not god, but people, who believe and pattern themselves after god

Be Ewing: and if one knows the statistical odds -- can be very profitable at times:)

Calvino Rabeni: god could be considered a metaphor for the better qualities of human nature

Calvino Rabeni: as god is anthropomorphic, usually

Be Ewing: perhaps that is another discussion?

FcSeeker takes a humble bow

Eliza Madrigal waves to FcS

FcSeeker: namaste

Mickorod Renard: bye fc

oO0Oo: Fc :)

Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Fc :))

Be Ewing: namaste

Bruce Mowbray: Oh dear! I just realized what time it is.

Arisia Vita: bye Fc

Bruce Mowbray: Shall we decide on a topic for next week?

Bruce Mowbray: Do you want to continue this one?

Be Ewing: well we touched on quite a few possibilities

Calvino Rabeni: metaphor as a "way of knowing" ?

Bruce Mowbray: Cal said this, "They are more than figures of speech or conceptual structures; more than descriptive of logic-like statements about the world. They are intrinsically gestural and participatory -- ways of being in and of the world."

 -- and that is at least a full session right there!

Bruce Mowbray: I suggest we use "ways of being in the world" (through metaphor, perhaps) as a launching pad for next week's discussion.

Bruce Mowbray: open to any other suggestions, though.

Mickorod Renard: fine with me Bruce

Bruce Mowbray: ty.

Bruce Mowbray waits and listens.

Agatha Macbeth listens and waits

Calvino Rabeni: sounds good to me

Aphrodite Macbain: Big topic

Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe we can narrow it down a bit

Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for all your work and attentiveness Bruce, and nice writing (as often) Cal, and thanks Aph for the story...

Mickorod Renard: that's a good idea Aph

Agatha Macbeth nods

Be Ewing: Diverse discussion

Aphrodite Macbain: ways of being in the world: as a person, as a society? which world?

Be Ewing: Cal -- thanks for the starting point!

Bruce Mowbray: enormous topic -- and an important one, too.

Arisia Vita: a friend asks my help, so I will go, for that is my pleasure... see you all soon I hope

Arisia Vita: be well and happy

Mickorod Renard: bye Ari

Agatha Macbeth: Take care ari :)

Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Ari!

Arisia Vita: bye for now

Be Ewing: Arisia and All -- take care and miles of smiles :)

oO0Oo: bye Ari

Aphrodite Macbain: By Ari - you helpful person!

Eliza Madrigal waves to Ari

Bruce Mowbray: I was wondering -- for the sake of the WoK group itself . . . . does anyone wish to say anything?

Aphrodite Macbain: Can we narrow the subject down before we leave and decide who's going to raise it?

Bruce Mowbray: Surfe, Aph, we can try.

Bruce Mowbray: sure*

Aphrodite Macbain: Surfe?

Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth pictures Aph on a surf board

Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain pulls out her surf board

Agatha Macbeth: snap

Aphrodite Macbain: crackle

Be Ewing: pop

Agatha Macbeth: It's deja vu

Bruce Mowbray: "ways of being in the world" (through metaphor, perhaps) as a launching pad for next week's discussion

Aphrodite Macbain: getting hungry

oO0Oo: metaphor as way of knowing like a surfer knows the world by the wave

Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth waves to 0

Aphrodite Macbain: mind hurts

Be Ewing: :)

Calvino Rabeni: nice metaphor, Sam

Bruce Mowbray: Metaphor as a way of knowing. . .

Be Ewing: All take care :)

oO0Oo: hey Ags! :)

Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Be!

Calvino Rabeni: bring a poem ?

Mickorod Renard: are you suggesting that we just recite metaphors Bruce?

Agatha Macbeth: Bye for now Be

Aphrodite Macbain: by weight, touch and sound

Mickorod Renard: bye Ags

Calvino Rabeni: deconstruct something :)

Mickorod Renard: bye be

Agatha Macbeth: Haven't gone yet...

Bruce Mowbray: great idea, Cal -- Everyone bring a poem to illustrate the point -- or not.

Mickorod Renard: :)

Aphrodite Macbain: yes. That sounds useful. We're all good at deconstructing

Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth swats Mick

Bruce Mowbray: A poem that illustrates how metaphor offers a way of knowing....

Aphrodite Macbain: or a large metaphor we live by

Calvino Rabeni hopes we can put humpty dumpty back together again

Bruce Mowbray does too.

Calvino Rabeni: Sure Aph,

Agatha Macbeth: The yolk's on him

Mickorod Renard: ok,,so anyone's Poem?

Calvino Rabeni: the hero's journey?

Aphrodite Macbain picks up a piece of shell from under her shoe

Bruce Mowbray: Anyone's poem -- or your own -- either one.

Calvino Rabeni: waiting for a train?

Mickorod Renard: ok,,great

Mickorod Renard: :))

Calvino Rabeni: Life as a dharma merry-go-round

Calvino Rabeni: etc.

Aphrodite Macbain: karma is a metaphor

Agatha Macbeth: Metta phor

Mickorod Renard: ok,,I am off to bed, Friday looms

Calvino Rabeni: what seems meaningful ... the speaker's meaning ... yours

oO0Oo: Bye Mick :)

Mickorod Renard: thanks heaps

Agatha Macbeth: Loom well Mick

Calvino Rabeni: Bye :)

Bruce Mowbray: Aph, I feel that EVERY "spiritual" term, without exception, is a metaphor.

Mickorod Renard: byeeeeee

Aphrodite Macbain: Bye

Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Mick thanks for your helpful contributions

Calvino Rabeni: Row row row your boat

Bruce Mowbray: BYEEEEE!

Eliza Madrigal: Eliza Madrigal waves warmly to Mick

Aphrodite Macbain: Hmmm.

Bruce Mowbray: OK, then. I'm a bit vague about how this chat gets posted. . . Shall I do that?

Calvino Rabeni: Please do, Bruce

Calvino Rabeni: I don't have it

Bruce Mowbray: This is a Kira venue, so I'm not clear on the frames.

Aphrodite Macbain: I'm not sure if it is automatically recorded. Is it Eliza? Cal?

Bruce Mowbray: I have it on my hard drive.

Calvino Rabeni: frames/

Aphrodite Macbain: Frames of seeing

Bruce Mowbray: frames, indeed!

Calvino Rabeni: no, you take it from your computer chat log

Eliza Madrigal: it isn't automatically recorded, no

Calvino Rabeni: and make a new page on the wiki

Agatha Macbeth: We need an autologger here...

Calvino Rabeni: and paste it in

Eliza Madrigal: and it seems fine to post to the discussions, nods

Bruce Mowbray: yeah, I've got it on computer. so I will post it.

Calvino Rabeni: actually Bruce, I like to take off the timestamps too

Calvino Rabeni: if they are there

Bruce Mowbray: Did anyone else wish to say anything about WoK?

Eliza Madrigal: should there be a desire to really 'restart' the workshop, then it is a good idea to talk to Maxine

Calvino Rabeni: if you want me to do it, send me the file

Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Bruce. Yes, they are a nuisance

Eliza Madrigal: and attend a Kira team meeting

Bruce Mowbray: I will delete the timestamps, np.

Calvino Rabeni: ty much Bruce

Bruce Mowbray: I know nothing of Kira team meetings, sry.

Agatha Macbeth: Better to turn em off beforehand

oO0Oo: shout out to Stim and gaya and anyone else who haunts the ways of knowing !

Eliza Madrigal: and at the meeting one would propose and take initiative...

Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

Agatha Macbeth: How is Gaya?

Calvino Rabeni: Exempt from public haunt

Eliza Madrigal: :)

Bruce Mowbray: WHERE is Gaya?

Eliza Madrigal: she is taking classes, as I understand

Bruce Mowbray loves "exempt from public haunt" -- ME TOO!

Agatha Macbeth: Bless her

Aphrodite Macbain: Congratulations Bruce. I feel, like last time, that we haven't adequately dealt with the topic. Cal has put a lot of thought into his essay and I don't think everyone totally understood what was happening. I wonder if we could revisit the subject

Aphrodite Macbain: next week

Bruce Mowbray: definitely, Aph -- and I agree with you entirely.

Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps focusing on something

Eliza Madrigal: I'll be reading on the wiki mostly, but thanks and I'm glad i made it here today

Aphrodite Macbain: What do you think, everyone?

Bruce Mowbray: BRING that with you, please.

Aphrodite Macbain: (who's left)

Bruce Mowbray: THANKS for joining in, Eliza!

Aphrodite Macbain: It needs some preparatory work Bruce. and an agreement by everyone

Agatha Macbeth: Thx Liz, take care

Aphrodite Macbain: Bye

Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Eliza

Eliza Madrigal: wish you the best, and it would be a good idea to talk to Maxine re the official things :)

Agatha Macbeth: (you really do need wings btw)

Bruce Mowbray remembers the Little Red Hen....

Eliza Madrigal: she is ever with me :)

Bruce Mowbray: "Very well, then, I shall do it myself." And she did!

Agatha Macbeth: I remember the little red rooster

Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

Aphrodite Macbain: cluck cluck

oO0Oo: leading by example as metaphor for fruition

Bruce Mowbray: Pila! How ARE you!!!????

Bruce Mowbray: (silent one).

Aphrodite Macbain: and pickiness

Agatha Macbeth: Silence is golden

Eliza Madrigal: bye everyone :) waves

Pila Mulligan: hi Bruce

Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Liz!

oO0Oo: wings to all... be well

Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth waves

Agatha Macbeth: I'll be away the noo

Bruce Mowbray: I was hoping you could enlighten us about the metaphorical I Ching -- or not so metaphorical.

Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain flaps hers

Agatha Macbeth: tc

oO0Oo: :)

Pila Mulligan: :)

Bruce Mowbray: tc, aggers!

Bruce Mowbray hopes that we've breathed a bit of life back into WoK today.

Bruce Mowbray: Time for moi to move along. Carry on, good people!

Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain takes a deep breath

Pila Mulligan: bye

Aphrodite Macbain: Bye

Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! everyone.

Aphrodite Macbain: Thank you, Bruce

Bruce Mowbray: Bye!

Bruce Mowbray: yw! THANK YOU, Aph!