04.21.2011 - Reality

Dao Yheng: Hi all!
Pila Mulligan: hi Dao
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Dao
Zen Arado: Hi Dao :)
Dao Yheng: Zen, have you been regaling everyone with stories about your retreat?
Agatha Macbeth: Yes :)
Zen Arado: seems like it :)
Agatha Macbeth: The yaks especially
Dao Yheng: yaks!
Zen Arado: was only a course though
Dao Yheng: do yaks like meditators?
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Ataraxia.
Pila Mulligan: hi atari
Ataraxia Azemus: Hi everyone :)
Dao Yheng: Hi Ata :)
Agatha Macbeth: Hiyaz Atari
Zen Arado: Hi Violet :)
Pila Mulligan: reality is a pretty deep subject
Dao Yheng: Yes, many angles
Zen Arado: it sure is
Pila Mulligan: if I can offer a thought ... everything is real, some moreso than others
Zen Arado: what do we mean by real?
Pila Mulligan: everything :)
Dao Yheng: everything is empty and also real?
Zen Arado: doesn't it point to some object reality separate from usthat we interpret in our own way?
Zen Arado: objective*
Pila Mulligan: that is a qualitative analysis
Bruce Mowbray: I know reality when I see it.
Dao Yheng: :)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Pila Mulligan: yes, Dao, the irony of it is fun too
Ataraxia Azemus: But aren't our interpretations are a part of reality?
Zen Arado: but the word seems to make a distinction
Ataraxia Azemus: Yes
Pila Mulligan: distnctions are real :)
Calvino Rabeni: IN some uses, "real" seems to mean, something that can not be completely represented. It is a concept of an object compared to a representation, favoring the object over the representation
Zen Arado: of something that is really there
Alfred Kelberry: woly second!
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Wol Euler: hehehe
Agatha Macbeth: Hello late arrivals :))
Pila Mulligan: looks like they had a race -- hi Alf and Wol
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Boxy.
Dao Yheng: Hi alfred and wol!
Zen Arado: Hi Alf, Wol
Wol Euler: evening all
Calvino Rabeni: so a dream is real-as-a-dream-is-real but not real-as-the-object-represented
Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Wol and Boxy :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hi again, Wol.
Alfred Kelberry: wuff!
Zen Arado: you take him for his walk Wol?
Ataraxia Azemus: Yes, Cal...that works for me
Pila Mulligan: is Cal sying the dreamed of object is more real than the dream?
Zen Arado: levels of realness?
Pila Mulligan: :)
Alfred Kelberry: oh
Bruce Mowbray: Reality is relationship -- no relationship, no reality.
Calvino Rabeni: I'm saying there is a convention of applying the concept "real" to make a relative distinction between a representation and that which is represented.
Alfred Kelberry: i think descartes said something like that :)
Zen Arado: yes Cal
Pila Mulligan: I agree
Ataraxia Azemus: Don't we rank levels of realness by how much we agree on them?
Zen Arado: that was the distinction I had in mind
Pila Mulligan: indeed Violet
Ataraxia Azemus: Which kind of dovetails with reality as a relationship :)
Zen Arado: and Plato
Zen Arado: thinking about that Violet
Pila Mulligan: even when agreed upon realness is an illusion (e.g., flat earth)
Bruce Mowbray: Representations are also "real" - so long as they are related to.
Zen Arado: so realness is merely a consensus?
Calvino Rabeni: But there are many different uses of the word, none really well defined in an analytic sense.
Pila Mulligan: one reality is consensus
Calvino Rabeni: SO it doesn't amount to much of a consensus
Alfred Kelberry: how real is say the standard model in this sense?
Pila Mulligan: there is an implied consensus t many realities
Zen Arado: no but we use concepts of realness in everyday life a lot
Calvino Rabeni: The project of getting everyone to settle on one definition and get that straight, doesn't seem too likely to succeed
Alfred Kelberry: we use theories that we agree upon to be real
Zen Arado: the standard model Boxy?
Pila Mulligan: the standard model is real to everyone agreeing with it Alf
Alfred Kelberry: as they seemingly match the observation
Agatha Macbeth smiles @ Pila
Pila Mulligan: yes Cal, people seem unable to agree on everything
Zen Arado: I don't really think ther is anything real
Zen Arado: :)
Calvino Rabeni: The concept of "speaker's meaning" seems to lend a hand to the meaning project
Pila Mulligan: nothing is real may be the converse of eveyhthing is real
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Could be
Coffee Mug whispers: Ahh! Fresh Hot Coffee
Ataraxia Azemus: Or the same, if everything is nothing :)
Zen Arado: if we change all the time how can we be real?
Zen Arado: realness seems to imply a solidity?
Calvino Rabeni: Easy Zen, by defining reality as that-which-constantly-changes
Pila Mulligan: Zen 'the shape changes but not the form' (Tao Te Ching)
Zen Arado: doesn't fit usual conceptions though I think
Dao Yheng: actually, one definition of reality I read is that impermanence is part of the definition of reality, part of what needs to be accepted about it
Calvino Rabeni: by "usual conceptions" you might mean some platonic thingie?
Zen Arado: of some solid thing which we only have a small limited perception of
Ataraxia Azemus: When I think about realness...the closest I can get to something fundamental is experience...like Boxy said, we agree on things that fit our observations, our experiences
Calvino Rabeni: that doesn't change?
Calvino Rabeni: or some mass rock-like thingie
Calvino Rabeni: that changes slower than we can perceive
Zen Arado: the word suggests substantiality to me
Zen Arado: as opposed to silly flighty erroneous perceptions
Dao Yheng: there is a strong pull to make things solid -- but what if that's not necessary?
Alfred Kelberry: one day we may wake up outside the matrix and change our agreement on reality of this world :)
Pila Mulligan: analyzing and defining reality is the work of many institutions
Zen Arado: thinks we're there already :)
Alfred Kelberry: but for some the matrix is more real than the real world
Bruce Mowbray ponders "more real than. . . "
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: qualitative anlaysis
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Pila Mulligan: ... and then is somethig the uliimtate reality?
Alfred Kelberry: i'm with violet here - experience
Pila Mulligan: ultimate*
Zen Arado: but how do we quantify reality Pila?
Bruce Mowbray: or the ultimately non-reality?
Calvino Rabeni: Who other than abstract philosophers, has a project of defining, as a broad category, "Real"?
Pila Mulligan: we decide individually Zen
Ataraxia Azemus: I think "more real than" means something we can agree more easily on--something that transcends our individual experiences, that suggests something external, maybe
Pila Mulligan: religions, Cal, for one
Pila Mulligan: lawyers, politicians, etc
Calvino Rabeni: How so Pila
Zen Arado: Richard Rorty suggested that Plato and Descartes planted this reality notion in us
Calvino Rabeni: Politicians, really :)
Pila Mulligan: promulgating decrees and dogmas
Bruce Mowbray: Well, a lot of folks who are not abstract philosophers think they can say what is NOT real. . .
Bruce Mowbray: like my GF thinks SL is NOT real.
Alfred Kelberry: *nods to violet*
Dao Yheng: :)
Ataraxia Azemus: :)
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Decrees and dogmas are not about reality, they define such and so concepts of objects as valuable
Calvino Rabeni: which is a very narrow project compared to "reality"
Zen Arado: get real Bruce :)
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Bruce Mowbray: "real" value?
Pila Mulligan: some theologies say the ulitmate reality is love
Dao Yheng: reality is a short hand for "what do I put my trust in"
Alfred Kelberry: there are even *real* numbers :)
Calvino Rabeni: @Dao, yes, a statement of trust and value
Agatha Macbeth: Yep
Bruce Mowbray likes Dao's pragmatic approach.
Ataraxia Azemus: That makes sense, Dao
Zen Arado: and numner are abstract aren't they?
Zen Arado: so maybe we have to let go of the notion?
Zen Arado: nothing is real?
Pila Mulligan: everything is real?
Agatha Macbeth: How do we define 'real' ?
Zen Arado: but 'real' seems selective
Zen Arado: this real and that not
Pila Mulligan: agree, trust, see, believe
Bruce Mowbray: If a Koan is used by a master, and if that koan is effective, if the "effect" that the koan brings in the student "real"?
Zen Arado: we don't seem to be able to define it
Bruce Mowbray: *is the effect (sry)
Calvino Rabeni: @agatha, some traditions define real as that which is undefinable ... perhaps to save themselves the work ?
Dao Yheng: Zen, that selectivity may be more a symptom of the way we apprehend
Zen Arado: it might be effective Bruce
Zen Arado: but not real
Pila Mulligan: what is effective?
Agatha Macbeth grins @ Cal
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, but if it is effective, is that effect real?
Zen Arado: in fact koans are very unreal I think
Ataraxia Azemus: I think everything is real, because I don't know how else to think about "everything"....but we can have different kinds of real--that which physically exists, values we agree on, thoughts and subjective experiences that happen only to us...all of those are real, I think, but in different ways
Bruce Mowbray: Is the effect of the koan real?
Zen Arado: they og us out of 'real' concepts
Wol Euler: it is if the student thinks it is :)
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Zen Arado: the effect is
Calvino Rabeni: It's nice to have a big book of different ways of being "real" :)
Ataraxia Azemus: Bruce, is that a meta-koan? :)
Zen Arado: or the effect is effective
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: we're twisting and substituting words I think
Agatha Macbeth: Yes, you sound like a pilitician ;-)
Pila Mulligan: words can define us (instead of vice versa)
Agatha Macbeth: politician
Zen Arado: if we can;teven define real how is it real?
Agatha Macbeth: even
Bruce Mowbray: One's life, it seems, IS that great big book -- in that one's life is a statement of what one feels/thinks is "real."
Calvino Rabeni: One popular but not well defined criterion of "real" as it applies to persons, is "embodied"
Alfred Kelberry: pila, they do
Zen Arado: real is only subjective then?
Pila Mulligan: the Atman question :) yay
boxy's nose: Aggers touches me gently
Bruce Mowbray: Why do you say "only" Zen?
Pila Mulligan: is everything more real than me?
Bruce Mowbray: "Only" subjective. . .
Pila Mulligan: or an I more real than everyhting :)
Alfred Kelberry: real and subjective in one sentence is scary :)
Zen Arado: because it is usually thought of as an objectively true thing
Zen Arado: ?
Zen Arado: and not subjective
Bruce Mowbray: excellent answer -- and one that is "real" for me.
Alfred Kelberry: endless outcomes
Bruce Mowbray: (subjectively).
Calvino Rabeni: @zen, sometimes I think that "real" is a catch-all category to include all that can't otherwise be defined by structured concepts .. thus saving us from conceptual lock-in and recognizing the limited nature of representation
Bruce Mowbray searches for whoever said the "real" is "experience."
Dao Yheng: the perceiver, the perceived and the perception come together in a package -- maybe there isn't really an objective without a subjective (or vice versa)
Calvino Rabeni: real is the "not subjective" category so it depends a lot on that
Ataraxia Azemus waves
Pila Mulligan: expereince is real, both subjective and objective :)
Agatha Macbeth waves back
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Ataraxia Azemus: That's how I see it, too, Dao
Ataraxia Azemus: :) Agatha
Agatha Macbeth grins
Alfred Kelberry: aga girl
Agatha Macbeth: Hmm?
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Alfred Kelberry: aga seems real to me :)
boxy's nose: Aggers touches me gently
Alfred Kelberry: she can touch my nose
Agatha Macbeth: Ah, maybe I'm not...:)
Alfred Kelberry: and my nose if of course real
Alfred Kelberry: *is
Agatha Macbeth: He nose you know
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Ataraxia Azemus: lol
Calvino Rabeni: Suppose instead four-letter words (real) we had a huge dictionary of precisely defined meanings referenced by identifiers like web URL's ... then that would be one way to answer "what do you mean Real?" .. but would it help?
Bruce Mowbray: When we said that something "exists", does that mean the same thing as saying that it is "real"?
Bruce Mowbray: a representation exists 000000 a URL exists....
Bruce Mowbray: a dream exists.
Pila Mulligan: wb Zen
Agatha Macbeth: Hello again Zen
Bruce Mowbray: wb Zen!
Dao Yheng: what happens when you get 404 not found? :)
Bruce Mowbray: Zen NOW exists, too.
Ataraxia Azemus: wb Zen :)
Bruce Mowbray: that means there is non-existence in that website.
Pila Mulligan: does Buddha exist now? is Buddha real today?
Zen Arado: sorry crached
Alfred Kelberry: tada! :)
Alfred Kelberry: the question :)
Zen Arado: I agree with Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Those references could precisely define the context of meaning, like "a 3-dollar bill is not REAL US Currency" .. "Mr. Magoo is not a REAL PERSON", "a dream of an ice cream cone is not REAL FOOD"
Bruce Mowbray: The "nature" of Buddhahood exists, yes.
Pila Mulligan: but not Buddha the being, Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: dont' know.
Pila Mulligan: we rememebred Zen after he crashed
Pila Mulligan: he was still real to us
Dao Yheng: the buddha being is us, I hear :)
Zen Arado: maybe reality is just something that makes us feel good because it gives us a feeling of security
Alfred Kelberry: i wonder, what would change if we had an answer to the question of what is real?
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, our memories of Zen were real.
Pila Mulligan: and to him :)
Pila Mulligan: they say a lot
Zen Arado: well they now say we reconstruct our memories Pila:)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: and they seem to change sometimes too
Pila Mulligan: but who knows :)
Agatha Macbeth: Who indeed?
Calvino Rabeni: There was one episode of "star trek" where people's memories were retroactively adjusted after changes to their social world
Bruce Mowbray: Is "history" real? ---- It seems to be more real to Christians (who absolutely NEED history) than to Buddhists (who need no history at all).
Pila Mulligan: :)
Zen Arado: history is an interpretation
Bruce Mowbray: and interpretation of a memory.
Pila Mulligan: this was part of the reference I made earlier to instutions, part of their job is to define reality for thier constitutents
Bruce Mowbray: an*
Zen Arado: even this scene with us here has many interpretations
Zen Arado: which or whose is the real one?
Bruce Mowbray: The worst thing that can happen to a good idea is that it becomes an institution.
Pila Mulligan: All One! (Dr. BronneR)
Zen Arado: yes Bruce
Ataraxia Azemus: What about the past?
Pila Mulligan: is the past real?
Ataraxia Azemus: Is it unreal even if it influences the present? Can something real become unreal?
Zen Arado: politicians like to make the future seem pleasantly concrete in the right way
Calvino Rabeni: It's interesting that we seem unable to perceive whether there are gaps in the visual field .. like .. rapidly moving eyes from point A to point B, there seem to be no intermediate perception, compared to doing it slowly
Zen Arado: yes Ca
Pila Mulligan: can we focus on reality?
Dao Yheng: hmm, that's weird
Calvino Rabeni: Oh, thanks Atara .. you've reminded me of the distinction betweeen "real" and "virtual" which is an interesting one
Zen Arado: our brains fill in a lot of details that aren't reallt there
Calvino Rabeni: so the visual field for instance is in many ways pretty virtual
Calvino Rabeni: virtual meaning .. not constructed until needed
Alfred Kelberry: pila, was it a question of a reminder? :)
Pila Mulligan: question :)
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Zen Arado: yeah RL is so virtual too
Calvino Rabeni: although some elements of it seem pre-constructed in a cache .. like moving cars on the roadway appear more readliy than they do on a mountain trail
Zen Arado: people who don't come into SL make a hard distinction
Bruce Mowbray: yes, Zen --- and that's a powerful metaphor.
Ataraxia Azemus: Is anything NOT virtual, then?
Zen Arado: our brains have an armoury of preconceived images
Bruce Mowbray: our brains are hard-wired to perceive motion and contrast.
Zen Arado: it's why we have difficulty drawing things - our brains have so many prestored images already
Bruce Mowbray: To me, the "real-ly" amazing thing is that the mind can influence our perceptions ---
Calvino Rabeni: We also have internal models of other people ... and relationships with real others are virtualized in that way ...partly simulated .. all living organisms anticipate or project "reality" rather more than sensing it
Zen Arado: what we perceives is so learned and conditioned
Calvino Rabeni: Yes Bruce that's part of it
Bruce Mowbray: Our biases - preferences -- can determine what we see.
Ataraxia Azemus: wb Agatha :)
Zen Arado: yes Cal simulations is the word
Pila Mulligan: wb Ags
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Cal -- and that projection is an example of what I mean by the mind influencing the perception --- of "reality."
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Agatha Macbeth: Mieum would appear to be on the blink
Zen Arado: wb Aga
Bruce Mowbray blinks.
Calvino Rabeni: Then Mieum is less real
Zen Arado: it never was ....
Zen Arado: :)
Bruce Mowbray: No -- Mieum is REALLY on the blink!!
Dao Yheng: :))
Ataraxia Azemus: :)
Calvino Rabeni: The quality of the virtualization is one thing determining whether people say something is "real"
Agatha Macbeth: +a
Agatha Macbeth: Mybe it's not real :p
Zen Arado: yeh back to qualitative judgement
Zen Arado: seems what it is
Bruce Mowbray: A very dear friend told me last week that my "problem" in life is that everyone seems to see me as a vast movie screen upon which to project their own realities.
Bruce Mowbray: I think his comment was one of the greatest gifts I' have ever received.
Ataraxia Azemus: I was just having a similar thought, Bruce :)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Bruce, what did that mean to you?
Zen Arado: wondes waht people project on me :)
Bruce Mowbray: It means that my friends see me as THEY are and not as I AM.
Bruce Mowbray: and that's fine.
Zen Arado: yeh guess we all do that
Calvino Rabeni: Does it say something about how YOU are?
Agatha Macbeth: I see my friends as clouds right now...
Bruce Mowbray: but it ralises real questions about the "real-ness" of empathy.
Zen Arado: so we don't ever really see what is there....really
Ataraxia Azemus: Me too, Ags :p
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Alf
Zen Arado: so nothing is real...
Calvino Rabeni: I guess what I mean, Bruce, is does that say something about how "real" you are to your friends...
Alfred Kelberry: i see you just fine
Calvino Rabeni: if you are their projections to them
Agatha Macbeth: So do I ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: then you're not so real to them
Zen Arado: real means genuine in that context though?
Bruce Mowbray: I guess, Cal, that it means I am not very real to my friends.
Alfred Kelberry: hmm
Calvino Rabeni: because earlier part of the definition of real is "not subjective" .. something that opposes subjectivity
Zen Arado: yeh
Bruce Mowbray: yes.
boxy's nose: Wol Euler touches me playfully
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Zen Arado: and there isn't any such thing....
Zen Arado: I thnk anyway
Calvino Rabeni can relate to Bruce's "problem" :)
Bruce Mowbray: but also, there is something poignant about realizing that we are alone in our perceptions -- and in our projections.... (the problem of "other minds.")
Pila Mulligan: All One! All One!
Bruce Mowbray: Oh -- it's not a problem, Cal -- In a way, it is a SOLUtion!
Zen Arado: that's why my teacher told us to 'not know' peole
Agatha Macbeth: D'artagnan
Dao Yheng: Apologies, all -- I must tear myself away now. But if someone wants to add to the chat transcript, please feel free
Zen Arado: cos we freeze others in our projections of them
Alfred Kelberry: i think our friends create (or shape at least) our "real" selves
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Pila Mulligan: bye Dao, nice to see you
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Dao! and THANK YOU!
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Dao
Calvino Rabeni: they are a lot of help in the creation process
Zen Arado: bye dao
Dao Yheng: bye all -
Dao Yheng: thanks!
Alfred Kelberry: there's no self-contained self of me the real
Calvino Rabeni: a friend projecting on me, shows in what way I am pliable or rigid
Zen: yes
Bruce: It's like a dance that we do -- with friends, trees, clouds, avatars -- and the dance, for me, is just about all the "reality" I feel I need.
Zen: it's why we see our own faults in others?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, they do us a favor by accepting our projected faults
Zen: we project our own faults there
boxy: bruce, do you think that your friends may think the same?
Zen: yes
Calvino Rabeni: that is, identity is distributed in terms of where it gets constructed
Violet: I like that way of looking at it, Cal
Bruce: Yes, I feel that my friends feel pretty much the same.
Calvino Rabeni: They are congruent within bounds
Bruce: When we look at the world -- the FAULTS of the world -- we see ourselves, then?
Calvino Rabeni: or else wouldn't be friends, perhaps
BruceBruce ponders "distributed identities."
Zen: yeh...it's what 'they' keep doing...
Zen: me too Bruce :)
boxy: is it time already for the oni dance? :)
Bruce: I am that. I am also that. An that one too!
Wol EulerWol Euler smiles.
BruceBruce checks to see if he's wearing oni.
boxy: :)
Aggers: gokko?
Zen: yep a whole conglomeration of projections
Violet: There's something from Gurdjieff that stuck with me, Bruce, about how things that annoy us in others reveal things to work on in ourselves.....I'm not sure it's always true, but it's a good rule of thumb :)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Zen: yes Violet
Zen: it's getting on
Calvino Rabeni: and insights into the virtual nature of the primary self
Zen: anyone got a topic for next week?
Bruce: Thanks, atari, Excellent point about Gurdjieff.
Calvino Rabeni: How to "be real" as a person?
boxy: :/
Bruce: Wonderful topic! (he said subjectively).
Zen: real as in genuine?
Bruce: real as in whatever that means to you.
Zen: yeh ok
Zen: :)
Bruce: ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Bruce: onigokko
Zen: a real good topic :)
boxy: yay!!!
Aggers: I'm too tired, sorry
Bruce: stop
Violet: stop
Aggers: :p
BruceBruce stops for aggers.
Zen: shakes off the tension
Wol Euler: :)
Aggers: Don't stop on my account
Bruce: Al has not stopped!
Aggers: He never does
boxy: :)
Zen: enjoyed that discussion
boxy: geez, it was fun :)
Violet: Me too :)
Bruce: time for din-din -- I sure hope it's real.
Zen: really
Calvino Rabeni: "It's been real" :)
boxy: how really it was? :)
Zen: 'nothing is real'
Violet: Be well, guys :)
Zen: nothing to get hung up about
Calvino RabeniCalvino Rabeni will now de-rez to avatar limbo
Calvino Rabeni: Bye :)
Zen: Strawberry fields forever
boxy: i'd like a more practical topic, but oh well... :)
Zen: yay
Calvino Rabeni: Make it practical then, Al
boxy's nose: Wol Euler touches me lovingly
boxy: mmm :)
Pila Mulligan: bye for now
boxy: pila-san
boxy: so girls
boxy: what do we do now?
Wol Euler: bye pila, bye cal, bye aggers
Zen: bye all
Wol Euler: bye zen
Aggers: Well this girl is going to bed :)
boxy: :)
boxy: sneaky you
Wol Euler: yeah, me too
Wol Euler: goodnight all
Zen: I'll send the last bit of the chat log to Dao
Aggers: Tatty bye all
boxy's nose: Wol Euler touches me lovingly
boxy: poof