04.14.2011 - Dharma and Darshan

Our conversation centered around Pila's essay on Dharma and the notion of darshan.

Pila Mulligan: hi Dao
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Dao.
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Dao
Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Dao :)
Dao Yheng: Hi Pila, hi all!
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Anon.
Bruce Mowbray: (way far away, Anon.)
Dao Yheng: Thanks for your essay this week, Pila
Pila Mulligan: :) thank you
Pila Mulligan: is the term darshan failiar to anyone here?
Dao Yheng: I have never really considered the meaning of "dharma" except in a buddhist context, where it generally refers to the Buddha's teachings, or more generally "phenomenon/stuff"
Pila Mulligan: yes
Ataraxia Azemus: Yes
Agatha Macbeth: Tartan yes, not darshan
Dao Yheng: I'm not familar with darshan either!
Pila Mulligan: darshan is an exepereince of being in the presence of a master or deity
Dao Yheng: ah, thank you
Pila Mulligan: darshan is also probably one of the more direct expereinces of dharma
Dao Yheng: so, if you meet your teacher on retreat or in a dream, is that considered darshan?
Pila Mulligan: straight on teaching
Pila Mulligan: yes Dao
Coffee Mug whispers: Ahh! Fresh Hot Coffee
Agatha Macbeth: Ah, nice
Pila Mulligan: dharma as one of the three pillars of Buddhism began with darshan :)
Dao Yheng: darshan might also be the feeling of really being in the presence of a flower, say? Or is that stretching it?
Pila Mulligan: it is not stretching for me Dao
Pila Mulligan: a flowering epiphany :)
Dao Yheng: :)
Ataraxia Azemus: :)
Dao Yheng: Could you say more about the three pillars beginning with darshan? Does it mean, in an individual encounter, or are you saying something about the roots of buddhism?
Dao Yheng: (sorry if my comments are coming out of order, my connection is a little slow today)
Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Zen :)
Pila Mulligan: I was thinking of the roots, and not being a Buddhist I am using terminology loosely
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Zen.
Agatha Macbeth: Hello dere Zen
Dao Yheng: Hi Zen!
Pila Mulligan: hi Zen
Agatha Macbeth: Top o the evenin'
Zen Arado: Hi all
Bruce Mowbray: Darshan goes back to the Hindu roots of Buddhism -- meeting with one's guru, who is regarded as the manifestation of Dharma. . .
Bruce Mowbray: but a lot of that is mythological, isn't it, Pila?
Pila Mulligan: myths, yes, indeed
Pila Mulligan: :)
Agatha Macbeth: 'Never let facts get in the way of a good story'
Zen Arado: I'm going to a Tibetan Temple in Scotland tomorrow
Bruce Mowbray: the notion of guru infalliblity, for example. . . mythological.
Agatha Macbeth: Wow
Pila Mulligan: nice
Ataraxia Azemus: Oh, awesome, Zen :)
Zen Arado: there is a lot of guru devotion in Tibetan Buddhism
Dao Yheng: fun, Zen :)
Bruce Mowbray: Oh say more, Zen!
Zen Arado: that I don't quite understand
Agatha Macbeth pictures Buddha in a kilt
Dao Yheng: :))
Zen Arado: http://www.samyeling.org/
Zen Arado: that place
Zen Arado: it has been going sincd the sixties
Zen Arado: Chogyam Trungpa was there for a while
Zen Arado: just going foe a course with Ringu Tulku
Zen Arado: nice break anyway
Dao Yheng: sounds great, Zen
Zen Arado: was there before about 3 years ago
Bruce Mowbray: so, this center is in the Shambhala tradition, Zen?
Zen Arado: it's A BIG PLACE
Zen Arado: sorry caps :)
Agatha Macbeth: I CAN IMAGINE ZEN
Bruce Mowbray: I'm trying to find a map to learn where in Scotland it is located.
Zen Arado: Dumfires
Agatha Macbeth: Ah
Zen Arado: Dumfries
Bruce Mowbray: Dumfries. ahhh!
Zen Arado: near Lockerbie where the plane crash was
Bruce Mowbray: Have a wonderful time, Zen.
Agatha Macbeth: Yes, meditate well
Zen Arado: not sure what they do at courses
Zen Arado: mostly teaching I think
Dao Yheng: will be interesting to hear your report when you get back :)
Agatha Macbeth nods
Zen Arado: the teachings have been pased down through all these traditions
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Anon.
Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Anon
Zen Arado: we learn to be thankful for that in Zen
Zen Arado: Hi Anon
Agatha Macbeth: Wow, it's Cloud strife
Bruce Mowbray: bye, Anon.
Zen Arado: :)
Dao Yheng: back on Darshan -- an interesting way of framing it -- coming from a more mahayana perspective, where all is empty and all is buddha nature...
Zen Arado: what is darshan?
Dao Yheng: a sense that the "meeting" is all that truly is
Pila Mulligan back and reading after RL phone call
Dao Yheng: from Pila Mulligan: darshan is an exepereince of being in the presence of a master or deity
Bruce Mowbray: In Hinduism, Darshan is being in the presence of and receiving instruction from one's guru, Zen.
Zen Arado: ah ok
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dar%C5%9Bana
Zen Arado: they say the very presence of enlightened masters can bring you to that too
Zen Arado: I haven't experienced that
Pila Mulligan: shaktipat
Pila Mulligan: in Hinduism
Zen Arado: is that genuine or do we add it by our own thinking?
Agatha Macbeth: Bless you
Mitsu Ishii: it's genuine
Mitsu Ishii: transmission
Bruce Mowbray: I ws with Muktananda in the 70's and saw a lot of shaktipat -- although never experienced it myself.
Pila Mulligan: :) Ags
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Zen Arado: my own teacher has a lot of ...presence
Mitsu Ishii: you can receive transmission, but you have to be ready
Bruce Mowbray: I was not ready!
Zen Arado: a quietness of demeanour
Bruce Mowbray: by a long shot!
Mitsu Ishii: I'm not sure how it works or why
Zen Arado: are you now Bruce?
Mitsu Ishii: but I have experienced it, very strongly.
Zen Arado: how would you know?
Mitsu Ishii: it's obvious
Zen Arado: the teacher has to determine?
Bruce Mowbray: Muktananda touched me with a long feather -- and all I felt was a feather. . .
Mitsu Ishii: no, it's obvious. or it was for me at least.
Bruce Mowbray: so, I think I'm probably more of a nature-buff than a guru buff.
Zen Arado: what was obvious?
Pila Mulligan: some have gods some had dogs
Agatha Macbeth: Nothing wrong with that Bruce!
Zen Arado: (soorry for questioning)
Mitsu Ishii: transmission was obvious. I mean I didn't really know what was happening
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, aggres with Mitsu -- It was QUITE obvious to those who were experiencing it. . . (but I was not.)
Mitsu Ishii: but it was huge
Agatha Macbeth: They all say that
Mitsu Ishii: I later spoke with my teacher and he verified what he was trying to transmit
Mitsu Ishii: and it was exactly what I experienced, etc.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Huge, yes.
Bruce Mowbray: overwhelming, in fact.
Agatha Macbeth: HUGE
Dao Yheng: :))
Mitsu Ishii: it wasn't really an experience in the ordinary sense of the word, though
Bruce Mowbray: I have great respect for that, --- but i did not experience it personally.
Zen Arado: I'm not ready for that for sure
Anon: hay how yall doing
Agatha Macbeth: Wow, that's what I call lag...
Mitsu Ishii: the word I'd use to describe it is "NOTHING"
Mitsu Ishii: not nothing as in a void
Anon: this place is cool
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Anon.
Mitsu Ishii: but nothing as in nothing at all needs to be done but in this really thoroughgoing way, not just an idea
Agatha Macbeth: Actually I'm quite warm
Dao Yheng: Anon, we're talking about http://waysofknowing.kira.org/
Bruce Mowbray: We are a group of explorers in mindfulness, Anon. We call our group "Ways of Knowing" and it is part of the Kira Institute.
Bruce Mowbray: This is the Kira Cafe.
Bruce Mowbray listens for more from Dao.
Zen Arado: Rumi poem: they told me to stand outside the doo and knock but when I did I found I had been knocking on the inside"
Zen Arado: door
Dao Yheng: that was quite good, Bruce, thank you :)
Mitsu Ishii: yep, exactly :) (Rumi)
Dao Yheng: and zen!
Bruce Mowbray: yw ;-)
Ataraxia Azemus: :)
Anon: yall noany cool places to go
Anon: i mean any cool pcaces
Agatha Macbeth: Greenland?
Zen Arado: depends what you want Anon
Zen Arado: :)
Mitsu Ishii: or antarctica
Anon: any yall like flying around and exploring
Zen Arado: dancing places?
Zen Arado: just like sitting and talking
Zen Arado: seems to be what I do most anyway :)
Agatha Macbeth: It's just yer age Zen :p
Dao Yheng: Pila, I was wondering too if you would say a bit more how you see the relationship between karma and dharma
Zen Arado: yeh I guess
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Zen Arado: yeh I wondered about that
Zen Arado: don't really see the connection
Ataraxia Azemus: I should be heading out....thanks, everyone :)
Dao Yheng: bye ata
Ataraxia Azemus: Be well :)
Agatha Macbeth: Enjoy Atari
Zen Arado: bye Violet :)
Dao Yheng: ...or anyone, really -- was intrigued but not really sure I understood
Pila Mulligan: it is a tough one Dao
Pila Mulligan: I'm not sure there is a formula
Zen Arado: they seem like two separate things to me
Pila Mulligan: but I think they are easily confused with one another
Pila Mulligan: yes
Pila Mulligan: and probably a very perosnal view in most cases
Pila Mulligan: karma is something that exists on a very large scale, to me
Pila Mulligan: we live iwth it regardless
Zen Arado: maybe Dharma is a guide for how to behave but Karma is how we actually do behave?
Pila Mulligan: dharma is something we can learn and appreciate for its worth
Pila Mulligan: maybe Zen
Pila Mulligan: here's a quote i was reading a while ago
Pila Mulligan: The core of Buddhism is made up of the three pillars of the Buddha, the Dharma (his teachings) and the Sangha (monks and nuns). Simply explained, one could say that without the historical Buddha Shakyamuni there would have been no Buddhist Dharma, nor Sangha. Without his teachings, the Buddha would not have made much of a difference, and also the spiritual community would not have existed. Without the Sangha, the tradition would never have have been transmitted through the ages. The Buddha would have been 'just' a historical figure and his teachings would have been 'just' books.
Pila Mulligan: the same is true in Christianity, Islam, Krishna religions, and so on
Pila Mulligan: they are teachings of a master or diety
Pila Mulligan: karma is the whole of life and human nature
Pila Mulligan: to me :)
Pila Mulligan: is that too much ?? :)
Zen Arado: but isn't karma predicated on actins?
Zen Arado: actions
Pila Mulligan: there's a touogh question -- yes it is, but is it separate from aCTIONS?
Pila Mulligan: actions*
Zen Arado: actions produce karma, good or bad?
Pila Mulligan: :) ?
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Ataraxia.
Zen Arado: but what we do is the result of the way we are
Pila Mulligan: my mythology has led to this end: to understand karma we can look at atman, the self, and ask is karma personal, am I real, or is it all just one big flow?
Pila Mulligan: karma exists either way
Pila Mulligan: do I?
Zen Arado: it's like we have relative individual choices but it's also all part of a big flow?
Pila Mulligan: free will? :)
Pila Mulligan: these are big quesitons, eh :)
Dao Yheng: I'm not sure if karma exists without the whole logic of action, self and object
Zen Arado: yep
Bruce Mowbray: I prefer to think of "karma" as momentum that follows action.
Pila Mulligan: like swimming Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: so all behavior - action - involves momentum in some way. . .
Bruce Mowbray: well, perhaps swimming -- but ANY behavior.
Zen Arado: momentum needs something to produce it too though?
Pila Mulligan: if we analogize it to swimming then water ebcomes part of the context
Bruce Mowbray: there is a continuation -- not an immediate and discrete cause and effect.
Bruce Mowbray: bye Anon -- Hoping we'll see you at the pavilion.
Zen Arado: if we are totally with the flow we need little action
Bruce Mowbray: Doing nothing, everything gets done.
Bruce Mowbray: Ahh!
Dao Yheng: :)
Pila Mulligan: annother big question: do good works count for anything?
Pila Mulligan: this is getting back to dharma
Bruce Mowbray: like water -- or a mountain -- no effort to be stable -- no effort in the watercourse way.
Bruce Mowbray listens for more from Pila.
Pila Mulligan: well, that wa sit really
Zen Arado: sometimes I think talking about these things doesn't get you anywhere
Dao Yheng: :)
Pila Mulligan: karma, free will and good works, the three pillars of Pilaism
Agatha Macbeth grins @ Zen
Bruce Mowbray: agrees with Zen.
Pila Mulligan: but it is fun
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Zen Arado: yeh there's that :)
Bruce Mowbray: yes, aggrees also with Pila!
Dao Yheng: yup, yup!
Pila Mulligan: and I really do not have the answers
Bruce Mowbray: Where is there to go? To "get somewhere"?
Pila Mulligan: just imaginings
Zen Arado: I know
Zen Arado: or do I ...sigh
Dao Yheng: OK, I hate to ask, but does anyone have any ideas for next time?
Dao Yheng: (the real stumper)
Bruce Mowbray: I mean, suppose you achieve some marvelous stability in your meditation -- who's to know that? and are you going to show off about it? -- Nowhere to "go".
Pila Mulligan: if talking about these things doesn't get you anywhere, what gets you somewhere?
Pila Mulligan: topic idea
Bruce Mowbray: Being gets you here.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Zen Arado: how about the difference between reality and fantasy
Agatha Macbeth: Is there one?
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Zen Arado: it came up at ouir retreat
Agatha Macbeth: So that's what you get talking about
Zen Arado: what is 'real'?
Agatha Macbeth: Whatis love anyway...
Pila Mulligan: where do we want to be?
Agatha Macbeth: The pub?
Pila Mulligan: :)
Zen Arado: comes up all the time about SL
Dao Yheng: reality and fantasy -- sounds good to me!
Pila Mulligan: yep
Agatha Macbeth: Ah well...
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps "reality" is one of those myths, Zen. . .
Agatha Macbeth: Time to hit da road
Agatha Macbeth: Byeeee
Pila Mulligan: bye Ags
Bruce Mowbray: Byeeeee, aggers.
Dao Yheng: Bye Agatha!
Zen Arado: 'Is this the real life..or just a fantasy...
Zen Arado: bye Aga
Bruce Mowbray: is it a man or a butterfly who is dreaming?

The session officially ended here, though our conversation meandered on for a while ... :)