08.18.2011 - Tonglen & Approaching Suffering With Compassion

Aphrodite Macbain: What is the topic for today? I forget
Zen (zen.arado): Tonglen is the meditational practice of "inhaling suffering" and "exhaling compassion." What are the best ways to address suffering, inequality, unfairness and imperfection compassionately?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): http://waysofknowing.kira.org/
Aphrodite Macbain: Tx. Now I remember
Zen (zen.arado): http://www.acupuncturedoc.com/tonglen.htm
Calvino Rabeni: The second part of the sentence makes sense
Chi Aho: How does the Dali Lama do it?
Calvino Rabeni: I think there's limited utility to the idea that "compassion" can be somehow encapsulated in a technique
Zen (zen.arado): yeh
Zen (zen.arado): agree Cal
Calvino Rabeni: It can function as a reminder though, for something *more*
Zen (zen.arado): good starter maybe
Calvino Rabeni: sort of like tying a string on one's finger
Calvino Rabeni: to have a reference in the body
Zen (zen.arado): isn't it a kind of visualization?
Calvino Rabeni: for remembering something bigger
Zen (zen.arado): have lots of thoes in Tibetan Budhism
Aphrodite Macbain: I thought Tonglen was to develop a compassion for others
Aphrodite Macbain: I wasn't aware it can be done on oneself
Zen (zen.arado): does it work?
Calvino Rabeni: Pema Chodron says "meditate for others"
Zen (zen.arado): you can have compassion for yourself too Aph
Calvino Rabeni: What one does for oneself affects others
Zen (zen.arado): along with others
Zen (zen.arado): we aren't really others anyway
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Aphrodite Macbain: meditating for others = Tonglen?
Zen (zen.arado): you can draw in your own suffering as well as others in the inbreath
Calvino Rabeni: You might be interested in this list of questions on self-compassion http://www.self-compassion.org/test-...ion-level.html
Zen (zen.arado): and give yourself good similarly on outbreath
Calvino Rabeni: Or this short video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7B7sTC7AJM
Calvino Rabeni: What you give, you first create within, eh?
Zen (zen.arado): yeh
Calvino Rabeni: the heart is a part of the body that feeds itself first, in order to give to the rest of the body
Zen (zen.arado): I think Buddhism often stresses working on your own neuroses first
Arisia Vita: Well, in Whoville they say - that the Grinch's small heart grew three sizes that day. And then - the true meaning of Christmas came through, and the Grinch found the strength of *ten* Grinches, plus two!
Zen (zen.arado): then that will radiate out to others
Aphrodite Macbain: I did Tonglen for my mother and ended up crying a lot
Aphrodite Macbain: but I doubt if it helped her any
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): That's sweet Ari :)
Zen (zen.arado): it did if it made you feel more compassiokn for her Aph?
Chi Aho: Sometimes we must accept there may be a limited amount that we can do to ease the suffering of others.
Calvino Rabeni: Could it help her through the quality of your interaction when you see her?
Zen (zen.arado): nice Ari :)
Zen (zen.arado): yeh
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes I suppose it did. I focussed on her situation (loss of her husband)
Coffee Mug: whispers: Ahh! Fresh Hot Coffee
Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps cal
Zen (zen.arado): and even in a negative we can put less stress on others around us if we are more....balanced?
Aphrodite Macbain: balanced in what way?
Zen (zen.arado): maybe we neglect the effect we have on others around us too much
Zen (zen.arado): not angry, critical, needy etc
Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps. often it's hard to tell
Zen (zen.arado): radiating calmness
Aphrodite Macbain: calm within=calm without
Aphrodite Macbain: Does Tonglen help us to be calm within?
Zen (zen.arado): helps I think
Aphrodite Macbain: Has it helped you Zen?
Zen (zen.arado): at least it can help us focus on something other than our angry thoughts
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Tonglen puts us more in touch with our own reactiveness . . . and the practice helps us to calm that.
[02:24 PM]  Zen Arado: thnk so Aph
[02:25 PM]  Arisia Vita: welcome Vi
[02:25 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: I'm curious about other people's experiences
[02:25 PM]  Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Atari.
[02:25 PM]  Lolli Bluebird: Hi Atara :)
[02:25 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Atari
[02:25 PM]  Zen Arado: Hi Violet
[02:25 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Hi eveyone :) I'm sorry I'm late
[02:25 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: I had done my own form of tonglen decades before I heard about the Tibetan practice.
[02:25 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: it is a handy technique, easy to do
[02:26 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: It was the most effective cure for insomnia that I knew.
[02:26 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: Relaxed me totally.
[02:26 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Hmmm. Can it still?
[02:26 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: it is just another way to use the breath as a concentrative device I guess
[02:26 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: It can work to get a "taste" of something, but I don't believe one can rely on techniques, they tend to stop working
[02:26 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: Oh yes. . . but now I have all the theoretical stuff from Ken McLeod, Pema Chodron, etc., so I have to clear that away first to really do the practice.
[02:27 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: yeh eventually we shouldn't need them
[02:27 PM]  Julie Bluebird [Lolli Bluebird]: I find concentrating on breathing very hard but I haven't been doing it long so I'll stick with it...
[02:27 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: It was helpful to hear Pema talk as she led me through the process (I had a CD)
[02:27 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: It's a good approach to suffering to, I think....to allow for a mindful response instead of a mindless reaction
[02:27 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: Some view it as a "purification" --- but I think of it as an exchange.
[02:28 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: I found it really hard for a long time, too, Julie
[02:28 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: Pema's instruction is excellent, of course.
[02:28 PM]  Julie Bluebird [Lolli Bluebird]: That's comforting to know Atara :)
[02:29 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: I still find it difficult sometimes -- I requires intentional integrity -- and a lot of that.
[02:29 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: *It requires.
[02:29 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: One difficulty is, the *concept* of compassion assumes suffering, which the western mind regards as a "problem" to be solved, but we know focusing on problems narrows the mind and paradoxically holds the problem in place.
[02:30 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: yes
[02:30 PM]  Julie Bluebird [Lolli Bluebird]: How long do you sit for Bruce - if you don't mind me asking?
[02:30 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: excellent point, Cal.
[02:30 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: That's an interesting point, Cal
[02:30 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: do A and get B
[02:30 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: It takes me about ten minutes just to settle down, so I try to sit for at least 40 to 45 minutes, at least.
[02:31 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: It's nice to feel someone else's happiness as well
[02:31 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: I like to use suffering to ivestigate myself
[02:31 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: to get to the cause of it
[02:31 PM]  Julie Bluebird [Lolli Bluebird]: Thank you. I'm in good company then with the setling down time :)
[02:31 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Mm, Zen
[02:31 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: rather than ust escape it
[02:31 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: does that seem sensible?
[02:31 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Yes
[02:32 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: it can tell us so much
[02:32 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: uncover layers
[02:32 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Just took your test Cal - I do really badly on self judgement!!
[02:32 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: Ram Dass (in the 60's) used to say, "The only work we ever do is on ourselves." And I think that's true with the suffering issues and tonglen.
[02:33 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: yes, How stupid of me!
[02:33 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: Tonglen could be used to give relief but then we can look at the suffering more deeply
[02:33 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: What I like about tonglen is the acknowledgement of suffering...and the attitude of responding compassionately; that's as powerful to me as the breathing itself
[02:33 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: to understand it
[02:33 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: yeh denial is so common
[02:34 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Suffering of ourselves or others?
[02:34 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: ourselves
[02:34 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: (and others)
[02:34 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Either or both, I think
[02:35 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: but if we don't understand our own suffering what can we do to help others?
[02:35 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: unless it is obvious like people starving in Somalia
[02:35 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: Yes Zen,
[02:36 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: I could spend my life exploring my own suffering. When do I start caring for others?
[02:36 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: I think you already do, unless you mean simply external action?
[02:36 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: think the more we understand and see our own suffering the more compassionate we can be to others
[02:36 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: External action that is informed by my own self understanding
[02:36 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: think it opens us to others Aph
[02:37 PM]  Julie Bluebird [Lolli Bluebird]: I don't think it necessarily follows that if we don't understand our own suffering that we are automatically barred from helping others, I think.
[02:37 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Acknowledging suffering in itself is a big step, I think....part of that acknowledgement is that we can't help everyone; but I think that realization makes it easier to be compassionate
[02:37 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: oh no but maybe we can then act more intelligently Lolli?
[02:38 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: more wisely - do unto others etc
[02:38 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: We can see commonalities where we didn't before
[02:38 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: sometimes we blunder in and are more of a hindrance
[02:38 PM]  Julie Bluebird [Lolli Bluebird]: Yes Zen.
[02:38 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: it's the well meaning blundering I'm worried about
[02:38 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: we have all suffered that :)
[02:38 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: I can see it on my gravestone : SHE MEANT WEKK"
[02:38 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: well
[02:38 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Yes...wanting to help isn't always helpful :)
[02:39 PM]  Julie Bluebird [Lolli Bluebird]: Agree wholeheartedly Atara.
[02:39 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: just listening and trying to undestand someone better is best
[02:39 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: I suppose it is the difference between feeling compassionate and acting wisely
[02:39 PM]  Flight Band: All Go
[02:39 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Yes, Zen
[02:40 PM]  Arisia Vita: wb Chi
[02:40 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: wb Chi :)
[02:40 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: wb Chi
[02:40 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Chi
[02:40 PM]  Chi Aho: ty; something made me crash
[02:41 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: I think compassion is different from just wanting to help....a lot of unhelpful helpfulness happens when someone doesn't really need help, but someone else thinks they do
[02:41 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: yes Vi
[02:41 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: compassion is wise
[02:42 PM]  Julie Bluebird [Lolli Bluebird]: When "No thank you" is heared as "It's a cry for help!" Atara....
[02:42 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- nothing worse than well-meaning interference
[02:42 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: To me, compassion is closer to just listening and empathizing...sharing. Sometimes without anything that needs helping; without a "problem," like Cal said
[02:42 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: " So, suffering is caused by ignorance, or suffering exaggerated by ignorance or ignorant grasping and clinging to our notion of what we think should be, is what causes the "suffering of suffering." The suffering itself is not so bad, it's the resentment against suffering that is the real pain. "
[02:43 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: Ginsberg
[02:43 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Yes Ataraxia. I agree. Nicely put
[02:43 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: :)
[02:43 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: the double arrow
[02:43 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: If a friend is suffering, and my connection leads me to suffer in response, and I don't do anything to alleviate "our" suffering, it doesn't end up being compassionate
[02:43 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: yeh
[02:44 PM]  Julie Bluebird [Lolli Bluebird]: Oh that's interesting Cal...
[02:44 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: Maybe ginsberg was talking about pain ... resisting pain leads to suffering .. resisting the pain of suffering leads to more suffering
[02:44 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: it ends up being mutually supported suffering
[02:44 PM]  Arisia Vita: there is a difference between empathy and compassion
[02:44 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: @aph a collusion in suffering
[02:45 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: yes. codependent suffering
[02:45 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: waaaa
[02:45 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: is compassion more of a felt thng than undeerstood i tellectually?
[02:45 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: A definition of compassion is - intending or wishing to end suffering - thus acceptance plays a big role in that resisting leads to more suffering
[02:46 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Mm, Cal
[02:46 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: com+passion=with +emotion/passion
[02:46 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: yes great Aph
[02:46 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: feeling their feelings
[02:47 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Mm, Aph :)
[02:47 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: it's not really intellectual but it is tied with emotional intelligence
[02:47 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: don't you think?
[02:48 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: the opposite is a narcissist= someone who cannot empthize with others
[02:48 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: empathize
[02:48 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: There's some story, I think about the "prophet" were someone makes a comment about the ugly mangy dogs on the road (a kind of suffering about suffering) and the prophet says .. oh what beautiful teeth they have ... if I am remembering this correctly
[02:49 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: yes Cal
[02:49 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: I like that, Cal :)
[02:49 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: finding the good in things?
[02:49 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: yes
[02:49 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Something I wonder that's hard to word is....how compassionately can we suffer?
[02:49 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: so lots of things to let go of like pride that block compassion?
[02:50 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: also there's an idea in the west that suffering is a great indignity ... perhaps on other cultures suffering is "borne" with dignity, then the core value of the human is not harmed
[02:50 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: That is...suffering is something we have to live with, right? Not necessarily something that can cease forever
[02:50 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: yes. ego, narcissism
[02:50 PM]  Julie Bluebird [Lolli Bluebird]: That's a good point Cal...
[02:50 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Yes, Cal
[02:51 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: suffering is part of our condition
[02:51 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: So recognizing our wholeness and dignity, and that of others, is important to preserve the heart
[02:51 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: yes. acceptance of that is a good beginning
[02:51 PM]  Julie Bluebird [Lolli Bluebird]: And would that lead us to become more centered do you think?
[02:51 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: We can learn from our own suffering supposedly, about ourselves and others
[02:53 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: so much suffering seems pointless
[02:53 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps it would allow us to be more compassionate and forgiving to ourselves and others
[02:53 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: I dont know. Maybe these are all just words
[02:54 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: yeh
[02:54 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: it is action not words
[02:54 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: Pointless suffering would be the secondary suffering brought on by not accepting some other pain and suffering ... maybe the core condition can't be changed, but the response to it can
[02:54 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: do we intellectualize too much?
[02:54 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: They're both, I think....it's best not to get too hung up on words, but I think you're describing something true, Aph :)
[02:54 PM]  Calvino Rabeni smiles at Zen
[02:55 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: That's why I wanted to learn from other people's experiences rather than from their theories
[02:55 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: I think if one loses a feeling of wholeness, through intellectual activity, it could be said to be "too much"
[02:56 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: like a suffering incidentr and how we coped with it?
[02:56 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: yes. or how using Tonglen has helped alleviate suffering of oneself or others
[02:56 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: guess we all suffer
[02:56 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: we all know about it
[02:56 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: yes Zen What do we do about it?
[02:57 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: suffer :)
[02:57 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: I liked Bruce's example. Sorry he crashed. He ran out of his alloted hours on line
[02:57 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: I haven't used Tonglen much
[02:57 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: No?
[02:57 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Tonglen is a good way to remind myself that I can't stop suffering, and that's okay.
[02:57 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Who here has?
[02:57 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: I use other techniques
[02:58 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: I am more into Zen
[02:58 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: So... we are talking about Tonglen but no one here has used it?
[02:58 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: I never would have guessed :)
[02:59 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: I have used it but not very much
[02:59 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: I have...but in a pretty general sense
[02:59 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: We're good at the theory and the right words
[02:59 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: I suffer from lnoises (like lawnmowers) sometimes .. then get cranky and pass that energy on in relationships ... It seems one's own practices and stress management activities are directly linked to the quality of experience of others one is with
[02:59 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: the noises are just a signal
[03:00 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: just an example
[03:00 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: not even good at that Aph :(
[03:00 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: a simple everyday one
[03:00 PM]  Julie Bluebird [Lolli Bluebird]: I didn't know there were different types of meditation. I got to the Kannonji classes if that tells anyone anything......
[03:00 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain winks at Zen
[03:00 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Yes Cal?
[03:00 PM]  Chi Aho: We don't suffer at all compared to the refugees in Kenya coming out of Somalia, unless someone here is in physical pain.
[03:00 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: I'd not jump to that conclusion, Chi
[03:00 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: There are all kinds of suffering
[03:01 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: Yes
[03:01 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: but we can suffer formidable mental anguish Chi?
[03:01 PM]  Chi Aho: Well, there may be pain, but whether we suffer or not is a choice, no?
[03:01 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: don't know how that compares with starvation
[03:02 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: I spent time with the tsunami survivors and was struck by the clear quality of their state of mind .. compared to mine
[03:02 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Hmmm not for me. We can't simply take a pill or close a door on mental or emotional suffering
[03:02 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: Yeah
[03:02 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: When I was in India I noticed that poverty did not mean that everyone was miserable
[03:02 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: it's like street kids in India with nothing but are happy
[03:03 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: tonglen isn't a pill or problem solving technique
[03:03 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: I think how we respond can sometimes be a choice...but we all suffer, in different ways and to different degrees. That doesn't mean we'll understand each other's suffering, though
[03:03 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: snap Aph
[03:03 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: true, Aph, that's my experience too
[03:03 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: exactly Zen that's what I was referring to!
[03:03 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: attachment and loss
[03:03 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: that's where suffering begins for me
[03:04 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Yes
[03:04 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: resistance to what is
[03:04 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: yes
[03:04 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: especially if it leads to inaction
[03:05 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: (thinking about Satre's existential theory about action)
[03:05 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: It's like I have a stone in my sandal .. but am too busy (thinking) to take it out
[03:05 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: to watch suffering and to do nothing must be the worst sort of hell
[03:05 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Nice Cal
[03:05 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: The TV, Aphro?
[03:05 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Sartre
[03:06 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Stupid road! Someone should do something about all these bumps :p
[03:06 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: TV hardens us to it I think
[03:06 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: yes- it's so hard to see those images. My little cheque in the mail doesn't do much to alleviateit
[03:06 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: It may even make it worse
[03:07 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Please don't say that Cal! How?
[03:07 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: If we "give" to alleviate guilt, but don't know exactly how those funds are being employed in aid,
[03:07 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: It matters how ..
[03:08 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: By making me feel that I have done all I can do?
[03:08 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: yeh they often don't get to where they are intended
[03:08 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: Yes though, that's worthwhile, a symbolic act
[03:09 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: oftimes the funds buy things that are commandeered by warlords and put into the arms trade, etc. not reaching the intended recipients
[03:09 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Everybody I know says that! All you need to do is some research and give to an accredited organization. g it to
[03:09 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: I like the microlending approaches and the "give a calf" idea
[03:09 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: money is like a loose cannon
[03:09 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: it'
[03:09 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: too liquid, too hard to control where it goes and what gets done with it
[03:10 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: I give to Drs without Borders and feel very confident
[03:10 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: nods
[03:10 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: I think a lot of people worry about how charity money is used...a lot of organizations will tell you, or break it down if they're really large
[03:10 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: But it's good to do what you can personally, too, for people nearer you
[03:10 PM]  Julie Bluebird [Lolli Bluebird]: The world has got so much bigger now and people who gave to charity could see the benefit of their actions.
[03:10 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: have to make the effort I guess
[03:11 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: If everyone felt that way, no money would go to these places
[03:11 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: is it selfish to be good to yourself?
[03:11 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: We do what we can
[03:11 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: We have to due due dilligence and then trust
[03:11 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: I think maybe we'd be less selfish if we were good to ourselves more often :)
[03:11 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Yes Zen but it's OK to be selfish sometimes
[03:12 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain grins at Atraxia
[03:12 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: yes Vi....something about kindness to ourselves overflowing to others
[03:12 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: A stereotype about attitudes, maybe a little true? is, liberals give to the starving in africa and forget the homeless in their neighborhood, conservatives give to their churches and try to do some good works ... each group thinks the other is selfish in some way
[03:12 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: we deserve kindness too
[03:13 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: yes Cal
[03:13 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Yes, Zen :)
[03:13 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: certainly a alittle true Cal
[03:15 PM]  Julie Bluebird [Lolli Bluebird]: Perhaps we need to relearn to be kind to ourselves and that it isn't a selfish act but a necessary one to keep us balanced.
[03:16 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: I ahve never understood what people meant when they say :be kind to yourself"
[03:16 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: yes Lolli
[03:16 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: What does one do to be kind to oneself? Have a bubble bath?
[03:16 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Hi Annaliese :)
[03:16 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: we can be so hard on ourselves Aph
[03:16 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Bubble baths help :)
[03:16 PM]  Chi Aho: Just don't be so hard on yourself, Aph
[03:16 PM]  Arisia Vita: welcome Anna, pls take my seat if you wish, I must fly to supper...
[03:17 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, I "failed" cal's test. :-{
[03:17 PM]  Chi Aho: see you Arisia
[03:17 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: Hi Anna
[03:17 PM]  Arisia Vita: be well and happy to you all
[03:17 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Be well, Ari :)
[03:17 PM]  Arisia Vita: hope to see you all again soon
[03:17 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: bye Ari
[03:17 PM]  AnnalieseMarie: thankyou arisia
[03:17 PM]  Julie Bluebird [Lolli Bluebird]: Bye Ari - take care :)
[03:17 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: @aph http://www.self-compassion.org/test-...ion-level.html
[03:18 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: this a meeting O Ways of Knowing Anna
[03:18 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: That's the test I failed badly in Cal! Worst on self judgement!
[03:18 PM]  Chi Aho: Sorry I must go now also.
[03:18 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: http://waysofknowing.kira.org/
[03:18 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: sorry :)
[03:18 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: but nearly over
[03:18 PM]  Chi Aho: Nice to be with you all.
[03:18 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: bye Chi
[03:18 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Take care, Chi :)
[03:18 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Ciao Chi
[03:19 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: I'm on my way too ... take care everyone .. of self and others :)
[03:19 PM]  Julie Bluebird [Lolli Bluebird]: Well they aren't really tests Aphro - it's just that the word "test" is so engrained in our culture that it's a pass or fail it :))
[03:19 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Take care, Cal! :)
[03:19 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
[03:19 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: :-) Bye! Cal. Thanks
[03:19 PM]  Julie Bluebird [Lolli Bluebird]: Be kind to yourself :)
[03:19 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: bye Cal
[03:20 PM]  Julie Bluebird [Lolli Bluebird]: Bye Cal and Chi.
[03:20 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: any ideas for next week?
[03:20 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: I'm off too. I have to go and take cvare of myself now and sit on the roof in the sunshine
[03:20 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: I had one...it might not be a good one, though :)
[03:20 PM]  Julie Bluebird [Lolli Bluebird]: Sounds wonderful !
[03:20 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Be well, Aph :)
[03:20 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: we have done so many topics
[03:21 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: try it Vi?
[03:21 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: bye Aph
[03:21 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: We already had an open day...but I thought maybe we could do 20 minutes of quiet, first...just adding what feels right, and seeing where we end up
[03:22 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: hmmm yes
[03:22 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: I guess the topic would be "stillness"...but I thought it'd be fun to try being still, too :)
[03:23 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: it's scary being open ans unstructured
[03:23 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: stillness sounds good
[03:24 PM]  AnnalieseMarie: i know that topic well
[03:24 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: good Anna
[03:24 PM]  Julie Bluebird [Lolli Bluebird]: Well, we could always have stillness for 20 mins - followed by 20 mins of mayhem is suppose :-))
[03:24 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Stillness and structure, maybe?
[03:24 PM]  AnnalieseMarie: something like that
[03:25 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: yeh
[03:25 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Maybe the mayhem should be first...let us get it out of our systems :)
[03:25 PM]  Julie Bluebird [Lolli Bluebird]: Happy to go with the majority :-)
[03:25 PM]  Julie Bluebird [Lolli Bluebird]: Lol!
[03:27 PM]  Julie Bluebird [Lolli Bluebird]: I have to toddle too. Great meeting everyone again and look forward to seeing you all next week!
[03:27 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Take care, Julie :)
[03:27 PM]  AnnalieseMarie: bye julie
[03:27 PM]  Julie Bluebird [Lolli Bluebird]: waves and poofs....
[03:27 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: I guess we'll go with stillness and structure, then?
[03:28 PM]  Zen Arado gave you New Note.
[03:29 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: sure
[03:29 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: better go
[03:29 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Okay...I'll try to think of a better structure for that :)
[03:29 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Goodnight, Zen. Thanks :)
[03:29 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: :)
[03:29 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: byeee
[03:29 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: nite
[03:30 PM]  AnnalieseMarie: good night