09.15.2011 - Denial and Radical Acceptance

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Radical Acceptance is definitely called into question on that score! ;-)
Santoshima: sure
Aphrodite Macbain: you should have seen me dancing with Tomaso!
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): h ha! fierce dancing indeed.
Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain giggles
Arch (archmage.atlantis): Disney did see things others did not
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I loved it!
Aphrodite Macbain: what did he see Arch?
Santoshima: hello zen
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Zen.
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Zen and Zon
Arch (archmage.atlantis): I cann't speak for him, Aph, but for me, he saw the animus
Zon Kwan: hi venus
Aphrodite Macbain: he he Arch
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): "A joy, a depression, a meanness,
 some momentary awareness comes
 as an unexpected visitor. "
Aphrodite Macbain: what's that from Bruce
Zen (zen.arado): so should we let them in?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): http://www.panhala.net/Archive/The_Guest_House.html
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, you never know what they may bring
Aphrodite Macbain: Ah good Ole Rumi
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Me thinks they are already in -- so the question is whether to accept them or to deny them.
Arch (archmage.atlantis): Zen, your choice....safety in a crypt.....or alive in danger
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Daryl! GTSY again
Santoshima: accept = acknolwedge?
Aphrodite Macbain: = allow in
Santoshima: already in ...
Dari (daryl.taov): hey aph :)
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: then accept
Arch (archmage.atlantis): Really, Ari, now you show up?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): acknowledge and welcome them.
Zon Kwan: radically
Arisia Vita: I'm glad to see you too Arch :)
Zen (zen.arado): common sense says ...keep them out
Arisia Vita: and all of you
Aphrodite Macbain: and perhaps even enjoy them
Arch (archmage.atlantis): Oh right.....Radical Acceptance...forgot the text
Zen (zen.arado): why invite trouble?
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello again Arisia
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Ari
Zon Kwan: dont invite but accept if it comes
Santoshima: :) zen
Arisia Vita: a pleasure to be near you all...
Santoshima: hi arisia
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): "To be a man is to undo your belt and LOOK for trouble." -- Zorba the Greek
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hi, Ari!
Zen (zen.arado): well..just putting the usual commonsense view
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm afraid I have to go. I just wanted to drop in and say hi and give my love <3
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye, Aph!
Zen (zen.arado): what we would probably really do?
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye!
Santoshima: hi ... bye ...
Zen (zen.arado): bye Aph
Dari (daryl.taov): bye :)
Arch (archmage.atlantis): Cal......I'd almost forgotten you exist
Calvino Rabeni: :) Arch
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Cal :)
Calvino Rabeni: I couldn't forget ya
Santoshima: greetings Calvino
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Cal.perhaps the "
Calvino Rabeni: Zen :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ooops.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): perhaps the "natural" thing is to project their existence onto some external form (or person) (or goddess) in order NOT to have to accept them as part of ourselves.
Zen (zen.arado): doesn't the poem sound a little passive?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): The Guest House
 
 This being human is a guest house.
 Every morning a new arrival.
 
 A joy, a depression, a meanness,
 some momentary awareness comes
 as an unexpected visitor.
 
 Welcome and entertain them all!
 Even if they're a crowd of sorrows,
 who violently sweep your house
 empty of its furniture,
 still, treat each guest honorably.
 He may be clearing you out
 for some new delight.
 
 The dark thought, the shame, the malice,
 meet them at the door laughing,
 and invite them in.
 
 Be grateful for whoever comes,
 because each has been sent
 as a guide from beyond.
Arch (archmage.atlantis): Cafe for the Ways of Knowing session -- We'll be discussing "Radical Acceptance' today.
Arch (archmage.atlantis): Are we doing that yet....seems a long wait
Zen (zen.arado): because it really is radical
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Is Rumi advising "Radical Acceptance," though?
Zon Kwan: hm not passive to me
Zen (zen.arado): so radical I don't thnk many actually do it
Zon Kwan: it means to face things
Zen (zen.arado): or allow things?
Zon Kwan: thats qit active
Zon Kwan: no
Zon Kwan: accept the moment
Arch (archmage.atlantis): I have to comment Zon & Zen
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): letting go of all resistance to reality?
Arch (archmage.atlantis): My Dad told me to always be honest
Zon Kwan: nods
Zon Kwan: dont fight with reality but change it if you can
Arch (archmage.atlantis): The only reality I could find to honesty was accuracy
Zen (zen.arado): ah ..change it
Zon Kwan: respond
Zon Kwan: thats active
Arch (archmage.atlantis): Accuracy places a person who does not fit... that person is in constant conflict
Arch (archmage.atlantis): A madness descends
Zen (zen.arado): people who do not fit often get things changed though
Zen (zen.arado): others rest in complacency
Arch (archmage.atlantis): Yes, I agree....change it.....but change creates a new reality....and all the old problems still exist
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): so some withdraw -- in monasticism, hermitry, anarchy, . . .
Zen (zen.arado): that radical acceptance article
Calvino Rabeni: Any successful change involves the creative appearance of new problems :)
Arch (archmage.atlantis): There have been few transformational changes in the 60,000 years of homo sapiens time here
Zen (zen.arado): the guy goes on a retreat where you just sit and do nothing for three weeks
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): For me, the question is whether "avoidance" is even possible -- since these "guests" are really within ME -- not just the general society.
Zon Kwan: i think it means accept reality in the moment that faces you...welcome it... dont escape..dont avoid..then respond
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): good point, Zen. Being present with whatever is rising in the moment.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Zon, I meant, sry.
Calvino Rabeni: Change is not problem solving, it is just living.
Zon Kwan: nods
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bruce listens.
Arisia Vita: In times of change learners inherit the earth; while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists. - Eric Hoffer
Zen (zen.arado): could any of us sit and do nothing?
Zen (zen.arado): it's very difficult
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): not I, Zen.
Zon Kwan: doing happems all the time
Arch (archmage.atlantis): Do any still know Muad'Dib.
Zon Kwan: the point is who is doing
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): nope -- say more, Arch.
Zen (zen.arado): it's like we are forced to keep doing
Calvino Rabeni: I think I agree Zon
Calvino Rabeni: not doing is not an option
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Why must "doing" and "being" be opponents?
Zon Kwan: they are not
Calvino Rabeni: but luckily the world can't be "fixed" or "improved" so we don't have to worry about it (in a fundamental sense)
Zon Kwan: breathing takes place when you sit
Zon Kwan: circulation
Zon Kwan: thoughts arise
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): if I am starving and homeless, and then find some way of finding food and shelter, then my "world" has improved -- through doing.
Arch (archmage.atlantis): Breathing........yes, I experienced the cessation of that last nite, along with rigor mortis
Zen (zen.arado): our 'doing' is pretty insignificant in the long run
Zen (zen.arado): except to make us feel important?
Arch (archmage.atlantis): I am saying this planet is dying, and I wish it to live.
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Violet :)
Zon Kwan: us ?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Cal qualified "doing" by saying that it changed nothing "fundamentally."
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Zen, everyone :)
Santoshima: hi violet
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Atari.
Arch (archmage.atlantis): There is a place where one steps into the abyss
Zon Kwan: we are not doing anything, doing takes place through us
Arch (archmage.atlantis): Because to do otherwise, is to be dishones
Calvino Rabeni: Do you therefore have a responsibility Archmage (about the planet, etc.) ?
Arch (archmage.atlantis): Yes, Cal, I do
Zon Kwan: flies away...waves
Calvino Rabeni: I think it's ok to say "doing takes place through me, and BY me"
Coffee Mug: whispers: Ahh! Fresh Hot Coffee
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Hypno
Zen (zen.arado): have a seat
Hypnofan Wingtips: hi zen
Dari (daryl.taov): hi there :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Hypnofan
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Hypno.
Dari (daryl.taov): Dari wonders if sitting here doing nothing is really doing nothing
Zen (zen.arado): we are talking about Radical Acceptance and non -doing
Arch (archmage.atlantis): It blinks in and out
Hypnofan Wingtips: ok..
Hypnofan Wingtips: thank you ..i will listen
Dari (daryl.taov): Dari wonders if writing about doing nothing while doing nothing yet typing is doing nothing
Calvino Rabeni: The active life in accord with Tao is called non-doing
Zen (zen.arado): do we have any choice about it?
Arch (archmage.atlantis): At times I see the responsibility.....at times I see only what is in front of me
Dari (daryl.taov): Dari wonders if all virtuality is radical acceptance personnified
Zen (zen.arado): Zen wonders about that
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe the opposite, with virtuality?
Calvino Rabeni: Virtuality means what?
Calvino Rabeni: "could be, if I wish it"
Calvino Rabeni: a possibility, looking to be embodied by some force outside itself
Santoshima: yes, most likely, disembodies and not of much use, unless it can be harnessed to benefit in RL
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think we're always "doing" in a sense....but we can let go of a need to "do"
Arch (archmage.atlantis): Another was kind enought to invite me here
Santoshima: disembodied*
Zen (zen.arado): so we don't have any choice about what to allow in Rumi's poem?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Rumi suggest that we allow ALL of it.
Zen (zen.arado): but can we Violet?
Arch (archmage.atlantis): I feel that storm clouds are gathering
Arch (archmage.atlantis): And it is not time for the clouds to storm
Santoshima: arch, poetically speaking, or actually?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Welcome and entertain them all!
 Even if they're a crowd of sorrows,
 who violently sweep your house
 empty of its furniture,
 still, treat each guest honorably.
 He may be clearing you out
 for some new delight.
Arch (archmage.atlantis): I apologize, but I must take my leave
Zen (zen.arado): I am being a bit inquisitorial
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): bye, Arch.
Santoshima: alas, bye arch
Zen (zen.arado): hope it isn't offending you Arch?
Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm, not just "allow" but actively welcome and "entertain" them ! :)
Zen (zen.arado): this allowing seems right to me actually but I think it isn't so easy in practice
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey oO0Oo.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think the acceptance in the Rumi poem doesn't necessarily advocate non-action as much as....celebration of everything (like lots of Rumi poems!)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Sam :)
Calvino Rabeni: The "guest house" metaphor says... one is the HOST of the house, and is there to give all those visitors a good time and care for them
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Sam
Samúð (oo0oo): Samúð waves and sits quietly
Calvino Rabeni: That is so Active compared with acceptance or allowance as a concept
Dari (daryl.taov): hey sam :)
Zen (zen.arado): Zen wants to sit quietly too
Zen (zen.arado): (but find it difficult)
Calvino Rabeni: :) Zen is being naughty ?
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Samúð (oo0oo): Hard to do nothing
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I like that, Cal
Zen (zen.arado): we love our distractions so much
Zen (zen.arado): or I do anyway
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes
Calvino Rabeni: I like that the guest house poem suggests, embracing them and serving them a drink, introducing them to the other guests
Zen (zen.arado): yes active acceptance
Zen (zen.arado): welcoming sorrows
Zen (zen.arado): welcoming death?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): No resistance.
Zen (zen.arado): so it's not non doing so much as nin resisting the inevitable?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I see the poem as quite active -- not passive.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think so....or even celebrating the invetible as parts of the whole
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): i have a little trouble with "because each has been sent
 as a guide from beyond."
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): unless "beyond" means "within."
Zen (zen.arado): sometimes I feel that
Santoshima: active engagement with the mystery
Zen (zen.arado): does anyone else?
Dari (daryl.taov): maybe writing this poem is a proof that rumi was too active to let go himself ?
Zen (zen.arado): as if tests have been arranged for me
Dari (daryl.taov): someone telling me to shut up is still not shutting up himself
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): some cosmic design, Zen?
Hypnofan Wingtips: sorry must go..
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, I have felt that myself.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hey! Good point, Dari....a lot of Rumi's poems celebrate weaknesses, too
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye, Hypno.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Ne :)
Zen (zen.arado): bye Hypno
Dari (daryl.taov): do as i say, not as i do
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Be.
Calvino Rabeni: The poem suggests being active with what is, rather than controlled by likes and dislikes?
Dari (daryl.taov): so, weakness is the fact that no human can really let go
Calvino Rabeni: A joy, a depression, a meanness,
 some momentary awareness comes
 as an unexpected visitor.
 
 Welcome and entertain them all!
 
 Be grateful for whoever comes,
 because each has been sent
 as a guide from beyond.
Be (be.ewing): All - Hi :)
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Be
Dari (daryl.taov): we need instances of separation to get into that state, like zazen
Dari (daryl.taov): but even zazen is organized
Calvino Rabeni: It ends up in the marketplace eventually
Dari (daryl.taov): so by not doing anything in zazen, we re stil doing zazen
Santoshima: namaste
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye, Santo.
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Be (be.ewing): Santo - take care
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Santoshima :)
Zen (zen.arado): that's why non dualists don't lie zazen so much
Dari (daryl.taov): bye santo
Samúð (oo0oo): personal instances may indeed get between the lines
Zen (zen.arado): it can be seen as a way to get somewhere
Samúð (oo0oo): Bye santo
Zen (zen.arado): bye Santo
Calvino Rabeni: isn't zen a boat to get out of once the stream is crossed?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I like the image, Cal.
Zen (zen.arado): that's more Buddhist
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): But also, Zazen for Zazen's sake. . . "just sitting."
Dari (daryl.taov): in zen there is no boat
Zen (zen.arado): Zen would stress non attaing more
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Zen (zen.arado): just sit
Zen (zen.arado): nowhere to go
Dari (daryl.taov): siting doing nothing is still sitting, right ?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I remember when i first realized that the place to understand a koan is INSIDE it.
Dari (daryl.taov): even though we could do zazen upright
Zen (zen.arado): I don't know
Zen (zen.arado): we are not stones
Zen (zen.arado): we are always doing something
Zen (zen.arado): we can't stop thinking
Samúð (oo0oo): polishing our stoneness
Zen (zen.arado): yep :)
Dari (daryl.taov): :)
Be (be.ewing): I do on occasion -- it is really a nice feeling -- begging out -- zoning out -- whatever you want to call it
Be (be.ewing): *vegging
Samúð (oo0oo): the ne serves the other tea
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): What makes the acceptance "radical"?
Samúð (oo0oo): *one
Calvino Rabeni: Radical means, perhaps, you don't pick and choose?
Zen (zen.arado): I think because it is so unlike what we normally do
Calvino Rabeni: Radical could mean, deep
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hmm...for some of us, zoning out is our default state :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, Zen, and perhaps because we've previously been so resistant to such "guests."
Zen (zen.arado): it's easy to sit here and agree with Rumi's poem but so hard to do what he says (I think)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): It's an individual thing, I feel.
Calvino Rabeni: :) zen
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): What I resist, you do not, etc.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): It's difficult to befriend difficulty
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Lulu :)
Calvino Rabeni: when is the last time anyone tried it ?
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Lulu
Lulu Lacrima: Hi Ata!
Lulu Lacrima: Hello Zen
Dari (daryl.taov): ok folks, i m out for the night :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Lulu.
Dari (daryl.taov): take care everybody
Lulu Lacrima: I'm a bit laggy here
Calvino Rabeni: Bye :)
Zen (zen.arado): bye Dari
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Dari :)
Dari (daryl.taov): try not to do too much :)
Lulu Lacrima: guess I'm about 53 minutes late?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye, Daryl. Thanks for coming.
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Lulu Lacrima: hehe
Samúð (oo0oo): Bye dari, hello lulu
Lulu Lacrima: hello o0000o
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Meditation guideline: "Return to what is already there and rest." (In other words, simply be with whatever is there -- no resistance to it.)
Zen (zen.arado): yes I practice that with things in my life
Zen (zen.arado): but it certainly ain't easy
Calvino Rabeni: Another question is, what gets in the way, what happens when trying to welcome the unwanted guest? If it is possible to "do" that, how can it be done?
Calvino Rabeni: in practice
Lulu Lacrima: Bruce, Zen, I try very hard to Be...but it's difficult for me sometimes
Be (be.ewing): :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Perhaps what gets in the way of the guest is even more important to accept than the guest himself/herself.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :)
Be (be.ewing): try using Be as your name
Be (be.ewing): it has some really interesting implications and responses :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Vel :)
Calvino Rabeni: Does anyone have any cases to report of doing this?
Lulu Lacrima: I'm a therapist in rl, and so I am All
Lulu Lacrima: but I am None
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Velveta.
Lulu Lacrima: I absorb
Lulu Lacrima: and I dissipate
Lulu Lacrima: but not fully
Lulu Lacrima: there's the block
Samúð (oo0oo): quality of relational journey to find edges, boundaries.. the boat to the other shore.. in out.. of our own experience, and that with 'others'
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Vel :)
Be (be.ewing): Lulu - by absorb do you mean assimilate?
Lulu Lacrima: no, empathize
Lulu Lacrima: fully
Be (be.ewing): understand -- thanks for clarifying
Calvino Rabeni: I think a lot of what happens in meditation, is dissipating what was absorbed in experience but not fully accepted
Lulu Lacrima: ok
Calvino Rabeni: when one isn't like the finger moving through water, more like sand
Lulu Lacrima: Calvino, you make sense to me about the meditation process....to dissipate
Lulu Lacrima: but see, sometimes, depending on the person I work with, I am almost become that person
Calvino Rabeni: the finger stirs the water, ... one sits, and after a while the leftover effects dissipate or settle
Samúð (oo0oo): as mind rearranges... we could be patient and forgiving
Lulu Lacrima: boundaries are difficult sometimes
Calvino Rabeni: indeed
Samúð (oo0oo): indeed the more intimate the boundaries
Lulu Lacrima: that perhaps is where I find my difficulties
Zen (zen.arado): meditation is the best place to allow things to come up I think
Samúð (oo0oo): place?
Zen (zen.arado): don't how else to put it
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): So, meditation is the ideal Guesthouse?
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Lulu Lacrima: but....if I weren't able to be intimate relative to those boundaries...perhaps I woldn't be able to do the job the way I see it should be done
Lulu Lacrima: mmm
Zen (zen.arado): best for practicing guesthouse skills?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yeppers.
Lulu Lacrima: guesthouse for whom?
Zen (zen.arado): we are the guesthouse
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Rumi's poem, Lulu. . . we've been discussing today.
Lulu Lacrima: oh
Calvino Rabeni: that's a fun connection, Bruce, thanks
Lulu Lacrima: forgive me, haven't read the poem Bruce
Lulu Lacrima: Rui
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): http://www.panhala.net/Archive/The_Guest_House.html
Lulu Lacrima: *Rumi
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): That's it :)
Lulu Lacrima: ah
Samúð (oo0oo): how to be homeless and a host
Be (be.ewing): on a beach that is easy
Zen (zen.arado): how to accept without resistance
Zen (zen.arado): even thought resistance
Lulu Lacrima: reminds me of a poem I wrote for a christmas gift to my friends...dunno if it's appropriate here, at this moment though
Be (be.ewing): Lulu -- go for it
Samúð (oo0oo): Samúð perks up to hear
Zen (zen.arado): try us :)
Lulu Lacrima: actually, I wrote two, but here's the first:
Lulu Lacrima: on christmas eve
 i had in mind a poem
 in which i wanted very much
 to thank you all
 you’ve touched my life
 being you
 having brought to me
 the gift of you
 how each of you
 becomes absorbed and
 one with me
 the personal experience of me.
 past
 and present
 and to the future.
 absorption to the core of me
 contributes each
 in some important way
 to the genesis
 of Me.
 But on christmas eve,
 the poem that i wrote was bad,
 very bad,
 and it was late,
 and i was tired,
 so instead
 i wrote a note,
 my gift to you,
 my thanks to you,
 my gratitude.
 the gifts of you,
 transcendent
 and resplendent,
 old & new,
 lost & found,
 mature & young,
 and so to you,
 with thanks i say:
 i wish you joy,
 i wish you health,
 i wish you peace.
 i wish you love.
Lulu Lacrima: and the second:
Lulu Lacrima: all we leave behind us is compassion
 friends of old
 and friends renewed
 lost,
 found,
 circled through.
 you all have touched me
 differently
 i thank you
 each for:
 sympathy;
 
 perspective.
 laughter,
 fortitude.
 
 each its mark
 exist in me,
 my memory,
 identity.
 
 Lulu Lacrima (edited) Copyright May, 2007

Lulu Lacrima: oops
Zen (zen.arado): nice poems Lulu
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I like them, Lulu :)
Lulu Lacrima: now you know my rl name
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Druth :)
Lulu Lacrima: thanks all
Lulu Lacrima: I trust you all
Samúð (oo0oo): Samúð feels welcomed and cared for
druth Vlodovic: hey guys
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Druth
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): hey, druth.
Be (be.ewing): that;'s beautiful
Lulu Lacrima: but I feel that sense of connection that I think was intended in Rumi's poem?
Calvino Rabeni: NOTE to the archivist - suggest striking the author's name
Lulu Lacrima: thank you be
Zen (zen.arado): that is an active expression
Calvino Rabeni: Yes beautiful thanks
Zen (zen.arado): important too
Lulu Lacrima: thanks Calvino
Lulu Lacrima: zen
Lulu Lacrima: all
Lulu Lacrima: Lulu Lacrima blushes
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :)
Samúð (oo0oo): :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): With that beautiful poem full of loving, I shall make my departure. Thanks, Lulu.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Thanks everyone.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): See you next week.
Calvino Rabeni: Prayers are a more active state of mentation than what's typcally called "thinking"
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Be well, Bruce :)
Zen (zen.arado): so...any topic ideas for next week?
Lulu Lacrima: you're welcome Bruce...thanks for enjoying
Be (be.ewing): Bruce and All -- take care :)
Samúð (oo0oo): Be well Bruce!
Zen (zen.arado): bye Bruce
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Calvino Rabeni: Take care Bruce
Calvino Rabeni: How about "depth"
Zen (zen.arado): ok can you add to that Cal?
Samúð (oo0oo): Samúð feels a charge
Zen (zen.arado): depth vs shallowness i practice?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): "Depth" is something we could talk about for months and only scratch the surface of :)
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Calvino Rabeni: hmmm, instead of focusing on a "content" idea, focus on the activity of reaching toward deeper insight or understanding
Calvino Rabeni: yeah Atara
Calvino Rabeni: but there's a good surface :)
Zen (zen.arado): yeh ok
Calvino Rabeni: sort of like asking ... how do you contemplate
Calvino Rabeni: or direct attention?
Lulu Lacrima: I like the idea of "why" do you contemplate
Lulu Lacrima: ?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I might miss next week...but that sounds good :)
Calvino Rabeni: so as not to stay on surfaces, or in an automatic habit
Calvino Rabeni: Why seems good too
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Mm
Zen (zen.arado): sounds good to me
Lulu Lacrima: oh, I just saw you Druth, hello
Samúð (oo0oo): Hiya Druth
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Well, I have to be going...be well, everyone :)
druth Vlodovic: hi :)
Lulu Lacrima: ciao bella Ata violette
druth Vlodovic: and so long violet
Samúð (oo0oo): Bye Atari
Zen (zen.arado): bye Violet
Lulu Lacrima: friends of new, I will be off for a bit, but I am pleased to have been able to rejoin the Kira Cafe for today
Lulu Lacrima: thank you
Lulu Lacrima: and thank you for letting me share
Calvino Rabeni: Good to meet you too, Lulu
Samúð (oo0oo): :) LuLu
Zen (zen.arado): nice to meet you again Lulu
Lulu Lacrima: ciao all *bisous*
druth Vlodovic: seems I missed all the excitement
Zen (zen.arado): yeh we calkmed down now :)
druth Vlodovic: hopefully I'llbe on time another day :)
druth Vlodovic: take care all
Zen (zen.arado): bye Druth
Zen (zen.arado): nice to sit and 'non do' :)
Samúð (oo0oo): Samúð sees plow.. turning soil.. gesture of movement and rolling crumbles.. innoculating some later contemplation, gone now, but cleared for view.. many things to appreciate... the cultivator, even before the plow a dream
Samúð (oo0oo): [bye Druth]
Zen (zen.arado): Zen thinks of a Seamus Heaney poem
Samúð (oo0oo): the friendship between the soil, the blade and whatever perceives, lives on an edge that can never be seen
Zen (zen.arado): but it was about cutting peat
Zen (zen.arado): these meetings plowing us up
Zen (zen.arado): making us receptive to new crops and growth
Zen (zen.arado): (hopefully)
Samúð (oo0oo): sorry to have mised the earlier parts, but glad i arrived for this great hospitality :)))) Thanks and fly well all.
Arisia Vita: I too must fly...
Samúð (oo0oo): Samúð bows.  Gassho _/|\_
Arisia Vita: great to see you all
Zen (zen.arado): thanks for coming all
Calvino Rabeni: Is it better to focus on one
Calvino Rabeni: 's strengths or weaknesses?
Zen (zen.arado): good question Cal
Zen (zen.arado): my teacher broached that the other week
Zen (zen.arado): and said the latter
Zen (zen.arado): which surprised me
Zen (zen.arado): there's a koan about polishing a tile and beating the wagon instead of the horse....
Calvino Rabeni: I'm not suggesting choosing one OR the other, of course, both seem important, but for different reasons
Zen (zen.arado): good topic we could discuss
Calvino Rabeni: yeah
Zen (zen.arado): I have to go
Zen (zen.arado): take care