09.08.2011 - Depth in Practice

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    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Cal :)
    Zen (zen.arado): quiet tonight
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi yes
    Calvino Rabeni: I think the sim was offline
    Calvino Rabeni: I see you are moving to a different pab host slot .. 7am?
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh
    Zen (zen.arado): need a change I guess
    Zen (zen.arado): and I won't have to get up so early
    Calvino Rabeni: that's a compelling reason
    Zen (zen.arado): and more people around hopefully
    Calvino Rabeni: yes i think so
    Calvino Rabeni: sounds good
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh I have to get up at 7.30 to do that meeting
    Calvino Rabeni: cringes
    Zen (zen.arado): to be ready at 9am my time
    Calvino Rabeni: I've almost never gone to a 7am session
    Zen (zen.arado): but you have been to my 1 am one
    Zen (zen.arado): many times
    Zen (zen.arado): I have never been to a 7pm one
    Mila (milakel): hey guys
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Mila
    Mila (milakel): cal :) a rare guest
    Calvino Rabeni: yeah, usually tired at 1am but still awake
    Mila (milakel): is it wok?
    Zen (zen.arado): yep
    Calvino Rabeni: yes I think, but the sim was offline
    Mila (milakel): aga didn't see anyone and left
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe they will try again
    Mila (milakel): thought it was canceled
    Mila (milakel): ah
    Mila (milakel): how's gaya doing?
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't think we have a quorum yet
    Zen (zen.arado): don't know
    Mila (milakel): i miss her :)
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh me too
    Zen (zen.arado): she is too busy
    Mila (milakel): what's the topic today?
    Zen (zen.arado): Violet says she can't come either
    Zen (zen.arado): I have been doing logs and sending notices as well last two weeks
    Mila (milakel): i'll let aga know that it's on
    Mila (milakel): in fact, i'll let everyone know in the group :)
    Calvino Rabeni: the topic was to be "depth" but, maybe people were scared off
    Zen (zen.arado): "instead of focusing on a "content" idea, focus on the activity of reaching toward deeper insight or understanding"
    Mila (milakel): ok, the message sent
    Mila (milakel): let's wait
    Calvino Rabeni: thanks mila
    Mila (milakel): depth...
    Mila (milakel): can be intimidating indeed :)
    Calvino Rabeni: how so?
    Mila (milakel): not many would be willing to poke too deep :)
    Calvino Rabeni: like, competition for social recognition about knowledge performances ... or, encounter with ones somewhat murky subconscious?
    Calvino Rabeni: why not mila?
    Mila (milakel): ok, here's a "deep" question: what are strings made of (re string theory)?
    Calvino Rabeni: just plain-old-embarrassment?
    Zen (zen.arado): 'let sleeping dogs lie' kind of thing?
    Calvino Rabeni: what dogs?
    Mila (milakel): cal, i didn't say "not" :)
    Calvino Rabeni: yeah but there's a resistance phenomena?
    Mila (milakel): but going deep requires a certain preparation and a state of mind
    Mila (milakel): zen, heh. yes, could be that :)
    Calvino Rabeni: depends on the area of inquiry, too
    Zen (zen.arado): there's lots of fear
    Calvino Rabeni: but there could be some general aspects of it as a practice?
    Zen (zen.arado): main barrier I think
    Zen (zen.arado): I think it is my main practice
    Zen (zen.arado): facing fear
    Mila (milakel): let's pick an area!
    Zen (zen.arado): fear of facing myself is one
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Mila I suspect you mean a TOPICAL area
    Zen (zen.arado): fear of what I might find out
    Calvino Rabeni: but I think a big part of it is seeing the seer, not the topic
    Mila (milakel): i mean that "depends on the area of inquiry, too" :)
    Mila (milakel): so we could be more specific
    Zen (zen.arado): do we prefer to skip along on the surface of life?
    Zen (zen.arado): and avoid subjects that could stir things up?
    Mila (milakel): unless it's an area of your interest
    Zen (zen.arado): actually I am wondering if I do this
    Calvino Rabeni: I do think, one of the main considerations is emotional regulation
    Mila (milakel): i like disruptive technologies in IT :)
    Calvino Rabeni: sure, if it is interesting, and not distressing, some complexity and depth naturally "occurs"
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh we want life to be nice and calm and peaceful
    Calvino Rabeni: as a generality Zen?
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Sara
    Calvino Rabeni: why do people pick fights, go to horror movies, watch TV dramas
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Mila (milakel): as a general rule, i agree
    Sara (saraswati.navarathna): hi Zen, hello everyone
    Calvino Rabeni: they LOVE flirting with that stuff
    Zen (zen.arado): maybe generalising is part of it
    Calvino Rabeni: and pushing the edges of it constantlyh
    Sara (saraswati.navarathna): i was wondering if there is someone here who might help me with a math problem?
    Mila (milakel): cal, but not live this stuff :)
    Calvino Rabeni: stimulation is as much a need as safety
    Zen (zen.arado): because that is 'safe'violence at second hand
    Calvino Rabeni: yeah I said flirt
    Zen (zen.arado): hmmm not me I think Sara :)
    Mila (milakel): sara :)
    Calvino Rabeni: but it could be ... to take as much as people are able
    Calvino Rabeni: some people seek more risk
    Calvino Rabeni: sometimes a lot of it
    Mila (milakel): 20s? :)
    Zen (zen.arado): people take risk to be in the moment I think
    Zen (zen.arado): in the 'zone'
    Mila (milakel): i think they take a risk when estimated reward is big enough
    Calvino Rabeni: the Zone is managed risk
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh that too Mila
    Calvino Rabeni: standing on the edge of the wave balanced on a surfboard
    Calvino Rabeni: or skydiving with a handy parachute
    Zen (zen.arado): but some like the adrenaline pumping
    Calvino Rabeni: yeah
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Mila (milakel): zen, it is a reward
    Calvino Rabeni: to a degree they can handle
    Calvino Rabeni: why do people drink coffee, and why do they regulate how much?
    Calvino Rabeni: it
    Zen (zen.arado): thrill seeking
    Calvino Rabeni: is not like cocaine, it is self-regulating
    Mila (milakel): heh
    Mila (milakel): um, trcky
    Calvino Rabeni: caffeine in part is a manageble activation of excitement and fear
    Calvino Rabeni: it moves the edge
    Zen (zen.arado): they get a kind of high?
    Calvino Rabeni: and?
    Calvino Rabeni: the high means what .. what is so great about having such a thing?
    Zen (zen.arado): feels good?
    Sara (saraswati.navarathna): i think i'm not understanding the poi8nt of this conversation.. you all have fun :)
    Zen (zen.arado): we want to feel good
    Zen (zen.arado): and we don't want to feel bad so we avoid thigs that might make that happen
    Zen (zen.arado): sorry that's rather obvious
    Calvino Rabeni: life has lots of different needs and motivations
    Zen (zen.arado): but maybe we don't admit to the fear we feel
    Zen (zen.arado): we push it away
    Zen (zen.arado): hide it from ourselves
    Calvino Rabeni: stimulation excitement growth yearning desire on the one side. many on the other about safety, regulation, risk, comfort ... it's aconstant battle to seek a dynamic balance
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh
    Zen (zen.arado): well put Cal
    Zen (zen.arado): but my practice is to try to face the fear
    Zen (zen.arado): let them come up
    Zen (zen.arado): that's one of the things happens in meditation
    Zen (zen.arado): the mind no longer can hide in distractions
    Calvino Rabeni: rhetorical question .. what does that mean, "distractions"?
    Calvino Rabeni: I can see the value of taking an intentional direction (sometimes) against the phenomenal experience of fear
    Zen (zen.arado): activities we indulge in to escape thing too much?
    Calvino Rabeni: that makes a lot of sense
    Calvino Rabeni: to do some of the time
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Calvino Rabeni: indulge, escape, huh?
    Zen (zen.arado): just opening up to it
    Zen (zen.arado): the usual things, watching TV, DVD's., eating, drinking, computer games
    Calvino Rabeni: all of those could be done "consciously" couldn't they
    Zen (zen.arado): sex...whatever
    Calvino Rabeni: but I see they are a kind of temptation
    Calvino Rabeni: however, does it beg the question of what the "something else" is that would be better
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh maybe it's how much, how often, for what reason we do them
    Calvino Rabeni: when making those ethical choices?
    Zen (zen.arado): like poepl overeat to find comfort
    Calvino Rabeni: that's one story about it
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh ok
    Zen (zen.arado): but using things as a kind of escape
    Calvino Rabeni: it seems we might learn from looking at a variety of stories that explain "why" people do things, because they draw out different facets of what is going on
    Zen (zen.arado): can any of us just sit quietly in a room and do nothing for two hours?
    Calvino Rabeni: a general story "we do things to escape" ... but the story gets more interesting - might I say "deeper" if we could look at "from what" and "to what" etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you expect that is a possible thing to do?
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh but you might want to go deep...I might want to...but how many people do?
    Calvino Rabeni: I suspect lotta people think of it as "possible but difficult"
    Calvino Rabeni: but what if it
    Calvino Rabeni: is impossible?
    Calvino Rabeni: Then what does it mean to have the IDEA that it might be possible
    Zen (zen.arado): am I overgeneralizing if I say mosy just want to skip along and have a laugh and a good time?
    Zen (zen.arado): seems to me more about the motivation than the possibility
    Calvino Rabeni: motivation seems important
    Zen (zen.arado): I think the depth is always there...if we allow it
    Calvino Rabeni: but is there depth to the motivation?
    Calvino Rabeni: or do we get stuck in a position of stereotyping ourselves
    Zen (zen.arado): maybe that is fear too
    Calvino Rabeni: sort of like attributing a fixed motive to other people
    Zen (zen.arado): hide behind a role
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Aph
    Calvino Rabeni: what's going on in the "hiding"?
    Zen (zen.arado): I think this is an important area
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: agree
    Zen (zen.arado): pity there aren't more here to develp it
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Aph :)
    Calvino Rabeni: yeah Zen, it could be richer
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi. Just got home sorry I'm late
    Zen (zen.arado): we seem to be talking about fear of going deep Aph
    Calvino Rabeni: NP Aph, the topic right now is "depth"
    Aphrodite Macbain: Deep into ourselves?
    Calvino Rabeni: and we're kind of goign at the attributions I think we make about ourselves in the area of motivations
    Zen (zen.arado): using distractions
    Calvino Rabeni: and whether we stereotype ourselves
    Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder if I'm just lazy
    Calvino Rabeni: to me Zen that is not a given, the existence of distractions
    Aphrodite Macbain: or don't know how to go dep or what that really means
    Aphrodite Macbain: deep
    Calvino Rabeni: taking ahold of any such "distraction" seems to break it into more depth
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Mila
    Mila (milakel): aph :)
    Zen (zen.arado): ok...hard to say where useful activity stops and distraction begins
    Mila (milakel): purr
    Calvino Rabeni: so I don't have a general theory that stops there
    Calvino Rabeni: how do we knwo what is useful
    Aphrodite Macbain: As in sitting and meditating
    Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain waves at Mila
    Zen (zen.arado): that is the problem
    Calvino Rabeni: well too much concern with usefuless, we won't learn outside the box
    Mila (milakel): :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: wont challenge ourselves?
    Calvino Rabeni: I think people challenge themselves within the limits of their self-concept of capability
    Zen (zen.arado): we need some entertainment too
    Calvino Rabeni: but maybe those limits are somewhat of a fantasy
    Aphrodite Macbain: When I try and go deep my thoughts get in the way
    Calvino Rabeni: well, what about going deep into that process
    Aphrodite Macbain: It helps if I ask myself questions.
    Calvino Rabeni: of the thoughts and whatever they compete with
    Calvino Rabeni: nods
    Zen (zen.arado): lots never bother
    Zen (zen.arado): but aren't we here the typew of people who like to discuss deep things?
    Calvino Rabeni: questions can be evocative
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, perhaps
    Aphrodite Macbain: But just what do we mean by "deep"?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Finding out the cause of things?
    Aphrodite Macbain: i.e why do I feel so sad?
    Aphrodite Macbain: or angry
    Aphrodite Macbain: or anzious
    Aphrodite Macbain: anxious
    Zen (zen.arado): yes..investigating ourselves
    Aphrodite Macbain: It requires a lot of discipline and focus
    Zen (zen.arado): or allowing deep emotins to surface
    Zen (zen.arado): and looking underneath them
    Calvino Rabeni: sometimes "what" is one of the steps along the way to "why"
    Aphrodite Macbain: ah - deep emotions rhather than thoughts?
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe an overlooked step it would help not to skip?
    Calvino Rabeni: like me looking at just what I get sad about
    Calvino Rabeni: getting insight and evidence
    Aphrodite Macbain: hmm. so if I wanted to figure out why I felt sad, I would look below the dsadness to something else?
    Zen (zen.arado): the emotins will have deeper ways of thinking underneath them?
    Calvino Rabeni: not making a "why" theory in advance of the "facts"
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh a root cause
    Aphrodite Macbain: do emotions think?
    Zen (zen.arado): no but aren't they a product of thought?
    Calvino Rabeni: deeper things ... maybe there aren't any roots, maybe they go in circles
    Zen (zen.arado): probably an old thought too
    Aphrodite Macbain: and then make generalizations about how that root cause influences other emotions?
    Zen (zen.arado): no...just see it I think
    Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain likes the concept of circles- endless tail chasing
    Zen (zen.arado): not add mre intellectualization
    Zen (zen.arado): awareness
    Calvino Rabeni: what makes intellectualization "mere"?
    Aphrodite Macbain: awareness without words is hard to have
    Calvino Rabeni: I think, when it is disconnected from a lot of other parts of our process
    Zen (zen.arado): well it isn't always 'mere'
    Calvino Rabeni: yes true
    Calvino Rabeni: it is "mere" when it is involuted, ungrounded
    Zen (zen.arado): but often ruminating takes us into a downward spiral I think
    Calvino Rabeni: like, if it isn't actually about anything
    Aphrodite Macbain: and irrelevant
    Zen (zen.arado): ust spinning thoughts
    Calvino Rabeni: the downward spiral would be an emotional process
    Calvino Rabeni: that is happening in parallel but disconnected
    Zen (zen.arado): repetitive thoughts
    Calvino Rabeni: from the discursive thought
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes. spinning without resolve or clarity
    Calvino Rabeni: like the thoughts, create a mood, but theydon't help the mood grow, learn, or evolve
    Zen (zen.arado): churnig thoughts
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh
    Aphrodite Macbain: I almost need someone else to help me think through things that are muddy or frioghtening.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Sonmeone to keep me on the right track
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh can help I think
    Aphrodite Macbain: someone compassionate but clearsighted
    Zen (zen.arado): that's what psycho.....whatevers are for
    Aphrodite Macbain: shrinks?
    Zen (zen.arado): :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes or very good friends
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: who listen and ask quetions but don't sum up
    Zen (zen.arado): who really know you
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, and whom you trust
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: sounds like a perfect description of a good partner!
    Calvino Rabeni: yes Aph the presence of other intelligences is crucial
    Zen (zen.arado): never had the pleasure
    Zen (zen.arado): :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: absolutely Cal. Nothing worse than a stupid shrink!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi misteris
    Zen (zen.arado): Hello Misteris
    misteris: sup
    Zen (zen.arado): having a discussion
    Zen (zen.arado): nearly finished
    misteris: cool but uh.. am i interupting
    Aphrodite Macbain: Not at all
    Zen (zen.arado): no not at all
    misteris: :D
    Calvino Rabeni: wonder if we might give this a try next time, with more of the group present
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh
    Zen (zen.arado): sure
    Aphrodite Macbain: We are talking about how we learn about ourselves better, how we can go beyond the shallow understanding of ourselves
    Zen (zen.arado): there is a series of talks on Tricycle atm on fear of various kinds
    Aphrodite Macbain: (or somethingn like that)
    misteris: lo0l
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes? what kind odf fear do they identify?
    Aphrodite Macbain: of
    Zen (zen.arado): first is fear of oneself
    Zen (zen.arado): second of others
    Zen (zen.arado): forget the rest
    Aphrodite Macbain: Fear of one's self?
    Calvino Rabeni: fear is a big part of human activity isn't it?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I get a shock every morning when I look at myself in the mirror
    misteris: o.0
    Calvino Rabeni: one of the types of threads woven into every experience
    Aphrodite Macbain: I just came froma discussion on the concept of freedom
    Zen (zen.arado): http://www.tricycle.com/online-retre...ends-ourselves
    Calvino Rabeni: making friends with self, is an excellent idea
    Zen (zen.arado): ah yes Aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: One of the conclusions we came to is that we can only have freedom within boundaries and discipline
    Aphrodite Macbain: Did someone say something?
    Zen (zen.arado): I did a lot of that stuff when studying philosophy
    Calvino Rabeni: being gracious, giving quarter, attributing positive motivations, being forgiving, everything that works with others
    misteris: anyone bored
    Zen (zen.arado): they used to hammer Berlin's positive and negative freedom into us
    Aphrodite Macbain: Being brave, having the courage of our convictions, creates a form of freedom within oneself
    misteris: o.o
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes? We were talking about that too
    Aphrodite Macbain: freedom from and fredom to
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm interested in what Kant said about freedom
    Zen (zen.arado): positive freedom never made much sense to me
    Aphrodite Macbain: and am curious to find out more
    Aphrodite Macbain: freedom to pursue your ideals and your dreams - that's positive freedom
    Zen (zen.arado): it looks at an individual
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes
    Zen (zen.arado): rather Liberal Individualistic
    Aphrodite Macbain: is that problematic?
    Calvino Rabeni: nice, Aph
    Zen (zen.arado): one person's freedom impinges on that of others
    Aphrodite Macbain: we star with ourselves though, don't we Zen
    Aphrodite Macbain: start
    Zen (zen.arado): freedom has limits
    Zen (zen.arado): so it isn't really freedom then
    Calvino Rabeni: and getting bigger than individualism no doubt is a huge support for the individiual, not a restriction
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes absolutely
    Aphrodite Macbain: we are free within those limits that we and society impose on us
    Aphrodite Macbain: we have no freedom without structure/rules/limits
    Aphrodite Macbain: otherwise freedom would be meaningless
    Zen (zen.arado): I asee the wrod as meaningless
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Zen (zen.arado): freedom but...
    Zen (zen.arado): a wooly word
    Aphrodite Macbain: people who dont have it don't find it meaningless
    Zen (zen.arado): free so long as you do the right thing
    Aphrodite Macbain: or the compassionate thing
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh but it's relative then
    Calvino Rabeni: ok its always relative and contextual
    Calvino Rabeni: no such thing as an absolute or generic freedom
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, but relative to what?
    Calvino Rabeni: it's situational
    Aphrodite Macbain: no, no absolutes
    Calvino Rabeni: so define the situation
    Zen (zen.arado): to consensus of others
    Calvino Rabeni: then one can start to define freedom relative to it
    Zen (zen.arado): to law system
    Aphrodite Macbain: freedom to decide to do ne thing or another
    Aphrodite Macbain: one
    Aphrodite Macbain: freedom to pursue ones needs and ideals
    Aphrodite Macbain: without hurting others
    Mila (milakel): ah, you talk about depth of freedom? :)
    Zen (zen.arado): we have a web of constraints of behaviour around us and we don't notice
    Aphrodite Macbain: that's where the limitations come in
    Aphrodite Macbain: agreed Zen
    Zen (zen.arado): ah...that's Mill's 'Harm Principle' Aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: but if we are aware of them we often have the choice to transgress them
    Zen (zen.arado): you can do what you like so long as you don't harm others
    Aphrodite Macbain: do as you would be done by
    Aphrodite Macbain: but the point is we do have freedom of choice
    Zen (zen.arado): what constittes harm?
    Calvino Rabeni: to pursue one's ideals without hurting others, brings the necessity to bring them into consideration too, ultimately
    Zen (zen.arado): constitutes
    Aphrodite Macbain: depends Zen.
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: But we are constrained to think about it and then act
    Zen (zen.arado): that's the difficulty
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes of course. No one said it wouldn't be difficult :-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: but we still have a choice
    Zen (zen.arado): it's a good aim
    Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain wishes she had studied philosiphy
    Zen (zen.arado): so long as others don't force their idea of freedom on me
    Aphrodite Macbain: also philosophy
    Zen (zen.arado): Zen sometimes wishes he hadn't :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: that's an exterior control. I'm more interested on what restrictions we put consciously or unconsciously on ourselves
    Zen (zen.arado): maybe we should use our intuition about it rather than rules and ideolofies
    Calvino Rabeni: sympathetic to that reservation Zen
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm outnumbered!
    Calvino Rabeni: well, it's a confusing pile of contradictory ideas
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh
    Calvino Rabeni: finding the good ones is a huge undertaking
    Zen (zen.arado): and frozen ideas at that
    Aphrodite Macbain: Do any one of you know where Kant stands on all this?
    Zen (zen.arado): on a lofty plane :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- imagine 18 people sitting at a table talking about this!! For 2 hrs. We resolved nothing.
    Calvino Rabeni: he was a kind of do-it-all integrator
    Aphrodite Macbain: ?me grins at Zen
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe better to focus on one narrower thing
    Aphrodite Macbain: hindsight
    Calvino Rabeni: like what he thought "concepts" or "ideas" might be
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes?
    Zen (zen.arado): Categorical imperatives and that stuff
    Aphrodite Macbain: He spoke about something to do with moral courage
    Zen (zen.arado): I forget
    Aphrodite Macbain: what is a categorical imperative?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Sounds like stamping your foot
    Zen (zen.arado): I forget
    Aphrodite Macbain: hhe
    Calvino Rabeni: something like the idea of the commons, applied to beliefs
    Zen (zen.arado): would need to revise that stuff
    Aphrodite Macbain: kk.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'll look it all up
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'll look up it all
    Aphrodite Macbain: anyway
    Calvino Rabeni: looking at the consequences that would result if lots of people agreed reality was a certain way, what would be the ethical effect
    Calvino Rabeni: like .. littering
    Zen (zen.arado): '"Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law."[1]'
    Calvino Rabeni: littering is bad,not because of one thing I might throw, but because what the environment would consist of if everybody did it
    Aphrodite Macbain: Ohh - that one!
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, that's concise
    Aphrodite Macbain: So act inaccordance with the common good?
    Calvino Rabeni: that's part of it
    Zen (zen.arado): that's more like Utilitarianism Cal
    Aphrodite Macbain: Act for everyone
    Calvino Rabeni: a kind of belief consequentialism
    Zen (zen.arado): consequentialism
    Aphrodite Macbain: maybe they are related
    Aphrodite Macbain: It makes one responsible for one's actions
    Calvino Rabeni: yeah, it makes a link between belief and ethics
    Aphrodite Macbain: and consider them carefully
    Calvino Rabeni: true
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes
    Zen (zen.arado): it is still an individualistic outlook
    Calvino Rabeni: in a way
    Aphrodite Macbain: It would have to be, wouldn't it?
    Zen (zen.arado): we act in concert with others
    Calvino Rabeni: it shows a sort of one-way input from indivual action to a collective
    Aphrodite Macbain: So how would you phrase it Zen?
    Zen (zen.arado): we are not lone individuals
    Aphrodite Macbain: but we make our own decisions
    Zen (zen.arado): do we?
    Aphrodite Macbain: ofr think we do
    Zen (zen.arado): I wonder
    Calvino Rabeni: yeah, that seems really true, but for some reason needs to be repeated a lot
    Aphrodite Macbain: that was the point of the discussion
    Zen (zen.arado): what I choose is the result of everthing that went before
    Calvino Rabeni: yeah
    Calvino Rabeni: nothing much original
    Aphrodite Macbain: what do we do of our own free will?
    Calvino Rabeni: nothing independently created
    Zen (zen.arado): free will is just a concept to me
    Aphrodite Macbain: but it can still be authentic-true to one's own beliefs
    Calvino Rabeni: just a concept means, not something to commit to ontologically
    Zen (zen.arado): maybe it has to be
    Zen (zen.arado): why would we do something foreigh to our nature?
    Calvino Rabeni: there are lots of things that seem pretty fictional, that are really useful to make part of a consensus belief system about reality
    Calvino Rabeni: because of their effects on the collective
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hmm too bad you cant come to the retreat you guys(and girl)
    Zen (zen.arado): we act from the whole of out backgrond and societal conditioning
    Calvino Rabeni: societal influence include a lot more complexity than conditioning
    Zen (zen.arado): hey getting late for me
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe finding more releative freedom is making distinctions there
    Calvino Rabeni: ok Zen :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: But we dont need to. We can become conscious of doing this and change our behaviour. We do this constantly as we grow older, changing our attitudes based on new knowledge, awareness and experience
    Calvino Rabeni: thanks for getting into it here .. always a pleasure
    Zen (zen.arado): yes thanks
    Calvino Rabeni: Don't need to, what?
    Aphrodite Macbain: maybe finding more releative freedom is making distinctions there - Yes cal
    Aphrodite Macbain: we dont need to act out of social conditioning Cal
    Zen (zen.arado): what did we say for next week?
    Calvino Rabeni: we didn't say ...
    Calvino Rabeni: more in-depth on depth?
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh sure
    Calvino Rabeni: we've barely scratched the surface of depth :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain holds her nose and jumps
    Zen (zen.arado): byee
    Calvino Rabeni: would be nice to have a bigger group
    Calvino Rabeni: bye Zen, Aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: he he Bye! all

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