09.08.2011 - Depth in Practice

Zen (zen.arado): Hi Cal :)
Zen (zen.arado): quiet tonight
Calvino Rabeni: Hi yes
Calvino Rabeni: I think the sim was offline
Calvino Rabeni: I see you are moving to a different pab host slot .. 7am?
Zen (zen.arado): yeh
Zen (zen.arado): need a change I guess
Zen (zen.arado): and I won't have to get up so early
Calvino Rabeni: that's a compelling reason
Zen (zen.arado): and more people around hopefully
Calvino Rabeni: yes i think so
Calvino Rabeni: sounds good
Zen (zen.arado): yeh I have to get up at 7.30 to do that meeting
Calvino Rabeni: cringes
Zen (zen.arado): to be ready at 9am my time
Calvino Rabeni: I've almost never gone to a 7am session
Zen (zen.arado): but you have been to my 1 am one
Zen (zen.arado): many times
Zen (zen.arado): I have never been to a 7pm one
Mila (milakel): hey guys
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Mila
Mila (milakel): cal :) a rare guest
Calvino Rabeni: yeah, usually tired at 1am but still awake
Mila (milakel): is it wok?
Zen (zen.arado): yep
Calvino Rabeni: yes I think, but the sim was offline
Mila (milakel): aga didn't see anyone and left
Calvino Rabeni: maybe they will try again
Mila (milakel): thought it was canceled
Mila (milakel): ah
Mila (milakel): how's gaya doing?
Calvino Rabeni: I don't think we have a quorum yet
Zen (zen.arado): don't know
Mila (milakel): i miss her :)
Zen (zen.arado): yeh me too
Zen (zen.arado): she is too busy
Mila (milakel): what's the topic today?
Zen (zen.arado): Violet says she can't come either
Zen (zen.arado): I have been doing logs and sending notices as well last two weeks
Mila (milakel): i'll let aga know that it's on
Mila (milakel): in fact, i'll let everyone know in the group :)
Calvino Rabeni: the topic was to be "depth" but, maybe people were scared off
Zen (zen.arado): "instead of focusing on a "content" idea, focus on the activity of reaching toward deeper insight or understanding"
Mila (milakel): ok, the message sent
Mila (milakel): let's wait
Calvino Rabeni: thanks mila
Mila (milakel): depth...
Mila (milakel): can be intimidating indeed :)
Calvino Rabeni: how so?
Mila (milakel): not many would be willing to poke too deep :)
Calvino Rabeni: like, competition for social recognition about knowledge performances ... or, encounter with ones somewhat murky subconscious?
Calvino Rabeni: why not mila?
Mila (milakel): ok, here's a "deep" question: what are strings made of (re string theory)?
Calvino Rabeni: just plain-old-embarrassment?
Zen (zen.arado): 'let sleeping dogs lie' kind of thing?
Calvino Rabeni: what dogs?
Mila (milakel): cal, i didn't say "not" :)
Calvino Rabeni: yeah but there's a resistance phenomena?
Mila (milakel): but going deep requires a certain preparation and a state of mind
Mila (milakel): zen, heh. yes, could be that :)
Calvino Rabeni: depends on the area of inquiry, too
Zen (zen.arado): there's lots of fear
Calvino Rabeni: but there could be some general aspects of it as a practice?
Zen (zen.arado): main barrier I think
Zen (zen.arado): I think it is my main practice
Zen (zen.arado): facing fear
Mila (milakel): let's pick an area!
Zen (zen.arado): fear of facing myself is one
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Calvino Rabeni: Mila I suspect you mean a TOPICAL area
Zen (zen.arado): fear of what I might find out
Calvino Rabeni: but I think a big part of it is seeing the seer, not the topic
Mila (milakel): i mean that "depends on the area of inquiry, too" :)
Mila (milakel): so we could be more specific
Zen (zen.arado): do we prefer to skip along on the surface of life?
Zen (zen.arado): and avoid subjects that could stir things up?
Mila (milakel): unless it's an area of your interest
Zen (zen.arado): actually I am wondering if I do this
Calvino Rabeni: I do think, one of the main considerations is emotional regulation
Mila (milakel): i like disruptive technologies in IT :)
Calvino Rabeni: sure, if it is interesting, and not distressing, some complexity and depth naturally "occurs"
Zen (zen.arado): yeh we want life to be nice and calm and peaceful
Calvino Rabeni: as a generality Zen?
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Sara
Calvino Rabeni: why do people pick fights, go to horror movies, watch TV dramas
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Mila (milakel): as a general rule, i agree
Sara (saraswati.navarathna): hi Zen, hello everyone
Calvino Rabeni: they LOVE flirting with that stuff
Zen (zen.arado): maybe generalising is part of it
Calvino Rabeni: and pushing the edges of it constantlyh
Sara (saraswati.navarathna): i was wondering if there is someone here who might help me with a math problem?
Mila (milakel): cal, but not live this stuff :)
Calvino Rabeni: stimulation is as much a need as safety
Zen (zen.arado): because that is 'safe'violence at second hand
Calvino Rabeni: yeah I said flirt
Zen (zen.arado): hmmm not me I think Sara :)
Mila (milakel): sara :)
Calvino Rabeni: but it could be ... to take as much as people are able
Calvino Rabeni: some people seek more risk
Calvino Rabeni: sometimes a lot of it
Mila (milakel): 20s? :)
Zen (zen.arado): people take risk to be in the moment I think
Zen (zen.arado): in the 'zone'
Mila (milakel): i think they take a risk when estimated reward is big enough
Calvino Rabeni: the Zone is managed risk
Zen (zen.arado): yeh that too Mila
Calvino Rabeni: standing on the edge of the wave balanced on a surfboard
Calvino Rabeni: or skydiving with a handy parachute
Zen (zen.arado): but some like the adrenaline pumping
Calvino Rabeni: yeah
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Mila (milakel): zen, it is a reward
Calvino Rabeni: to a degree they can handle
Calvino Rabeni: why do people drink coffee, and why do they regulate how much?
Calvino Rabeni: it
Zen (zen.arado): thrill seeking
Calvino Rabeni: is not like cocaine, it is self-regulating
Mila (milakel): heh
Mila (milakel): um, trcky
Calvino Rabeni: caffeine in part is a manageble activation of excitement and fear
Calvino Rabeni: it moves the edge
Zen (zen.arado): they get a kind of high?
Calvino Rabeni: and?
Calvino Rabeni: the high means what .. what is so great about having such a thing?
Zen (zen.arado): feels good?
Sara (saraswati.navarathna): i think i'm not understanding the poi8nt of this conversation.. you all have fun :)
Zen (zen.arado): we want to feel good
Zen (zen.arado): and we don't want to feel bad so we avoid thigs that might make that happen
Zen (zen.arado): sorry that's rather obvious
Calvino Rabeni: life has lots of different needs and motivations
Zen (zen.arado): but maybe we don't admit to the fear we feel
Zen (zen.arado): we push it away
Zen (zen.arado): hide it from ourselves
Calvino Rabeni: stimulation excitement growth yearning desire on the one side. many on the other about safety, regulation, risk, comfort ... it's aconstant battle to seek a dynamic balance
Zen (zen.arado): yeh
Zen (zen.arado): well put Cal
Zen (zen.arado): but my practice is to try to face the fear
Zen (zen.arado): let them come up
Zen (zen.arado): that's one of the things happens in meditation
Zen (zen.arado): the mind no longer can hide in distractions
Calvino Rabeni: rhetorical question .. what does that mean, "distractions"?
Calvino Rabeni: I can see the value of taking an intentional direction (sometimes) against the phenomenal experience of fear
Zen (zen.arado): activities we indulge in to escape thing too much?
Calvino Rabeni: that makes a lot of sense
Calvino Rabeni: to do some of the time
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Calvino Rabeni: indulge, escape, huh?
Zen (zen.arado): just opening up to it
Zen (zen.arado): the usual things, watching TV, DVD's., eating, drinking, computer games
Calvino Rabeni: all of those could be done "consciously" couldn't they
Zen (zen.arado): sex...whatever
Calvino Rabeni: but I see they are a kind of temptation
Calvino Rabeni: however, does it beg the question of what the "something else" is that would be better
Zen (zen.arado): yeh maybe it's how much, how often, for what reason we do them
Calvino Rabeni: when making those ethical choices?
Zen (zen.arado): like poepl overeat to find comfort
Calvino Rabeni: that's one story about it
Zen (zen.arado): yeh ok
Zen (zen.arado): but using things as a kind of escape
Calvino Rabeni: it seems we might learn from looking at a variety of stories that explain "why" people do things, because they draw out different facets of what is going on
Zen (zen.arado): can any of us just sit quietly in a room and do nothing for two hours?
Calvino Rabeni: a general story "we do things to escape" ... but the story gets more interesting - might I say "deeper" if we could look at "from what" and "to what" etc.
Calvino Rabeni: Do you expect that is a possible thing to do?
Zen (zen.arado): yeh but you might want to go deep...I might want to...but how many people do?
Calvino Rabeni: I suspect lotta people think of it as "possible but difficult"
Calvino Rabeni: but what if it
Calvino Rabeni: is impossible?
Calvino Rabeni: Then what does it mean to have the IDEA that it might be possible
Zen (zen.arado): am I overgeneralizing if I say mosy just want to skip along and have a laugh and a good time?
Zen (zen.arado): seems to me more about the motivation than the possibility
Calvino Rabeni: motivation seems important
Zen (zen.arado): I think the depth is always there...if we allow it
Calvino Rabeni: but is there depth to the motivation?
Calvino Rabeni: or do we get stuck in a position of stereotyping ourselves
Zen (zen.arado): maybe that is fear too
Calvino Rabeni: sort of like attributing a fixed motive to other people
Zen (zen.arado): hide behind a role
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Aph
Calvino Rabeni: what's going on in the "hiding"?
Zen (zen.arado): I think this is an important area
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Calvino Rabeni: agree
Zen (zen.arado): pity there aren't more here to develp it
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Aph :)
Calvino Rabeni: yeah Zen, it could be richer
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi. Just got home sorry I'm late
Zen (zen.arado): we seem to be talking about fear of going deep Aph
Calvino Rabeni: NP Aph, the topic right now is "depth"
Aphrodite Macbain: Deep into ourselves?
Calvino Rabeni: and we're kind of goign at the attributions I think we make about ourselves in the area of motivations
Zen (zen.arado): using distractions
Calvino Rabeni: and whether we stereotype ourselves
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder if I'm just lazy
Calvino Rabeni: to me Zen that is not a given, the existence of distractions
Aphrodite Macbain: or don't know how to go dep or what that really means
Aphrodite Macbain: deep
Calvino Rabeni: taking ahold of any such "distraction" seems to break it into more depth
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Mila
Mila (milakel): aph :)
Zen (zen.arado): ok...hard to say where useful activity stops and distraction begins
Mila (milakel): purr
Calvino Rabeni: so I don't have a general theory that stops there
Calvino Rabeni: how do we knwo what is useful
Aphrodite Macbain: As in sitting and meditating
Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain waves at Mila
Zen (zen.arado): that is the problem
Calvino Rabeni: well too much concern with usefuless, we won't learn outside the box
Mila (milakel): :)
Aphrodite Macbain: wont challenge ourselves?
Calvino Rabeni: I think people challenge themselves within the limits of their self-concept of capability
Zen (zen.arado): we need some entertainment too
Calvino Rabeni: but maybe those limits are somewhat of a fantasy
Aphrodite Macbain: When I try and go deep my thoughts get in the way
Calvino Rabeni: well, what about going deep into that process
Aphrodite Macbain: It helps if I ask myself questions.
Calvino Rabeni: of the thoughts and whatever they compete with
Calvino Rabeni: nods
Zen (zen.arado): lots never bother
Zen (zen.arado): but aren't we here the typew of people who like to discuss deep things?
Calvino Rabeni: questions can be evocative
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, perhaps
Aphrodite Macbain: But just what do we mean by "deep"?
Aphrodite Macbain: Finding out the cause of things?
Aphrodite Macbain: i.e why do I feel so sad?
Aphrodite Macbain: or angry
Aphrodite Macbain: or anzious
Aphrodite Macbain: anxious
Zen (zen.arado): yes..investigating ourselves
Aphrodite Macbain: It requires a lot of discipline and focus
Zen (zen.arado): or allowing deep emotins to surface
Zen (zen.arado): and looking underneath them
Calvino Rabeni: sometimes "what" is one of the steps along the way to "why"
Aphrodite Macbain: ah - deep emotions rhather than thoughts?
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Calvino Rabeni: maybe an overlooked step it would help not to skip?
Calvino Rabeni: like me looking at just what I get sad about
Calvino Rabeni: getting insight and evidence
Aphrodite Macbain: hmm. so if I wanted to figure out why I felt sad, I would look below the dsadness to something else?
Zen (zen.arado): the emotins will have deeper ways of thinking underneath them?
Calvino Rabeni: not making a "why" theory in advance of the "facts"
Zen (zen.arado): yeh a root cause
Aphrodite Macbain: do emotions think?
Zen (zen.arado): no but aren't they a product of thought?
Calvino Rabeni: deeper things ... maybe there aren't any roots, maybe they go in circles
Zen (zen.arado): probably an old thought too
Aphrodite Macbain: and then make generalizations about how that root cause influences other emotions?
Zen (zen.arado): no...just see it I think
Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain likes the concept of circles- endless tail chasing
Zen (zen.arado): not add mre intellectualization
Zen (zen.arado): awareness
Calvino Rabeni: what makes intellectualization "mere"?
Aphrodite Macbain: awareness without words is hard to have
Calvino Rabeni: I think, when it is disconnected from a lot of other parts of our process
Zen (zen.arado): well it isn't always 'mere'
Calvino Rabeni: yes true
Calvino Rabeni: it is "mere" when it is involuted, ungrounded
Zen (zen.arado): but often ruminating takes us into a downward spiral I think
Calvino Rabeni: like, if it isn't actually about anything
Aphrodite Macbain: and irrelevant
Zen (zen.arado): ust spinning thoughts
Calvino Rabeni: the downward spiral would be an emotional process
Calvino Rabeni: that is happening in parallel but disconnected
Zen (zen.arado): repetitive thoughts
Calvino Rabeni: from the discursive thought
Aphrodite Macbain: yes. spinning without resolve or clarity
Calvino Rabeni: like the thoughts, create a mood, but theydon't help the mood grow, learn, or evolve
Zen (zen.arado): churnig thoughts
Zen (zen.arado): yeh
Aphrodite Macbain: I almost need someone else to help me think through things that are muddy or frioghtening.
Aphrodite Macbain: Sonmeone to keep me on the right track
Zen (zen.arado): yeh can help I think
Aphrodite Macbain: someone compassionate but clearsighted
Zen (zen.arado): that's what psycho.....whatevers are for
Aphrodite Macbain: shrinks?
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Aphrodite Macbain: yes or very good friends
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Aphrodite Macbain: who listen and ask quetions but don't sum up
Zen (zen.arado): who really know you
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, and whom you trust
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Aphrodite Macbain: sounds like a perfect description of a good partner!
Calvino Rabeni: yes Aph the presence of other intelligences is crucial
Zen (zen.arado): never had the pleasure
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Aphrodite Macbain: absolutely Cal. Nothing worse than a stupid shrink!
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi misteris
Zen (zen.arado): Hello Misteris
misteris: sup
Zen (zen.arado): having a discussion
Zen (zen.arado): nearly finished
misteris: cool but uh.. am i interupting
Aphrodite Macbain: Not at all
Zen (zen.arado): no not at all
misteris: :D
Calvino Rabeni: wonder if we might give this a try next time, with more of the group present
Zen (zen.arado): yeh
Zen (zen.arado): sure
Aphrodite Macbain: We are talking about how we learn about ourselves better, how we can go beyond the shallow understanding of ourselves
Zen (zen.arado): there is a series of talks on Tricycle atm on fear of various kinds
Aphrodite Macbain: (or somethingn like that)
misteris: lo0l
Aphrodite Macbain: yes? what kind odf fear do they identify?
Aphrodite Macbain: of
Zen (zen.arado): first is fear of oneself
Zen (zen.arado): second of others
Zen (zen.arado): forget the rest
Aphrodite Macbain: Fear of one's self?
Calvino Rabeni: fear is a big part of human activity isn't it?
Aphrodite Macbain: I get a shock every morning when I look at myself in the mirror
misteris: o.0
Calvino Rabeni: one of the types of threads woven into every experience
Aphrodite Macbain: I just came froma discussion on the concept of freedom
Zen (zen.arado): http://www.tricycle.com/online-retre...ends-ourselves
Calvino Rabeni: making friends with self, is an excellent idea
Zen (zen.arado): ah yes Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: One of the conclusions we came to is that we can only have freedom within boundaries and discipline
Aphrodite Macbain: Did someone say something?
Zen (zen.arado): I did a lot of that stuff when studying philosophy
Calvino Rabeni: being gracious, giving quarter, attributing positive motivations, being forgiving, everything that works with others
misteris: anyone bored
Zen (zen.arado): they used to hammer Berlin's positive and negative freedom into us
Aphrodite Macbain: Being brave, having the courage of our convictions, creates a form of freedom within oneself
misteris: o.o
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes? We were talking about that too
Aphrodite Macbain: freedom from and fredom to
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm interested in what Kant said about freedom
Zen (zen.arado): positive freedom never made much sense to me
Aphrodite Macbain: and am curious to find out more
Aphrodite Macbain: freedom to pursue your ideals and your dreams - that's positive freedom
Zen (zen.arado): it looks at an individual
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Zen (zen.arado): rather Liberal Individualistic
Aphrodite Macbain: is that problematic?
Calvino Rabeni: nice, Aph
Zen (zen.arado): one person's freedom impinges on that of others
Aphrodite Macbain: we star with ourselves though, don't we Zen
Aphrodite Macbain: start
Zen (zen.arado): freedom has limits
Zen (zen.arado): so it isn't really freedom then
Calvino Rabeni: and getting bigger than individualism no doubt is a huge support for the individiual, not a restriction
Aphrodite Macbain: yes absolutely
Aphrodite Macbain: we are free within those limits that we and society impose on us
Aphrodite Macbain: we have no freedom without structure/rules/limits
Aphrodite Macbain: otherwise freedom would be meaningless
Zen (zen.arado): I asee the wrod as meaningless
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Zen (zen.arado): freedom but...
Zen (zen.arado): a wooly word
Aphrodite Macbain: people who dont have it don't find it meaningless
Zen (zen.arado): free so long as you do the right thing
Aphrodite Macbain: or the compassionate thing
Zen (zen.arado): yeh but it's relative then
Calvino Rabeni: ok its always relative and contextual
Calvino Rabeni: no such thing as an absolute or generic freedom
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, but relative to what?
Calvino Rabeni: it's situational
Aphrodite Macbain: no, no absolutes
Calvino Rabeni: so define the situation
Zen (zen.arado): to consensus of others
Calvino Rabeni: then one can start to define freedom relative to it
Zen (zen.arado): to law system
Aphrodite Macbain: freedom to decide to do ne thing or another
Aphrodite Macbain: one
Aphrodite Macbain: freedom to pursue ones needs and ideals
Aphrodite Macbain: without hurting others
Mila (milakel): ah, you talk about depth of freedom? :)
Zen (zen.arado): we have a web of constraints of behaviour around us and we don't notice
Aphrodite Macbain: that's where the limitations come in
Aphrodite Macbain: agreed Zen
Zen (zen.arado): ah...that's Mill's 'Harm Principle' Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: but if we are aware of them we often have the choice to transgress them
Zen (zen.arado): you can do what you like so long as you don't harm others
Aphrodite Macbain: do as you would be done by
Aphrodite Macbain: but the point is we do have freedom of choice
Zen (zen.arado): what constittes harm?
Calvino Rabeni: to pursue one's ideals without hurting others, brings the necessity to bring them into consideration too, ultimately
Zen (zen.arado): constitutes
Aphrodite Macbain: depends Zen.
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Aphrodite Macbain: But we are constrained to think about it and then act
Zen (zen.arado): that's the difficulty
Aphrodite Macbain: yes of course. No one said it wouldn't be difficult :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: but we still have a choice
Zen (zen.arado): it's a good aim
Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain wishes she had studied philosiphy
Zen (zen.arado): so long as others don't force their idea of freedom on me
Aphrodite Macbain: also philosophy
Zen (zen.arado): Zen sometimes wishes he hadn't :)
Aphrodite Macbain: that's an exterior control. I'm more interested on what restrictions we put consciously or unconsciously on ourselves
Zen (zen.arado): maybe we should use our intuition about it rather than rules and ideolofies
Calvino Rabeni: sympathetic to that reservation Zen
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm outnumbered!
Calvino Rabeni: well, it's a confusing pile of contradictory ideas
Zen (zen.arado): yeh
Calvino Rabeni: finding the good ones is a huge undertaking
Zen (zen.arado): and frozen ideas at that
Aphrodite Macbain: Do any one of you know where Kant stands on all this?
Zen (zen.arado): on a lofty plane :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- imagine 18 people sitting at a table talking about this!! For 2 hrs. We resolved nothing.
Calvino Rabeni: he was a kind of do-it-all integrator
Aphrodite Macbain: ?me grins at Zen
Calvino Rabeni: maybe better to focus on one narrower thing
Aphrodite Macbain: hindsight
Calvino Rabeni: like what he thought "concepts" or "ideas" might be
Aphrodite Macbain: yes?
Zen (zen.arado): Categorical imperatives and that stuff
Aphrodite Macbain: He spoke about something to do with moral courage
Zen (zen.arado): I forget
Aphrodite Macbain: what is a categorical imperative?
Aphrodite Macbain: Sounds like stamping your foot
Zen (zen.arado): I forget
Aphrodite Macbain: hhe
Calvino Rabeni: something like the idea of the commons, applied to beliefs
Zen (zen.arado): would need to revise that stuff
Aphrodite Macbain: kk.
Aphrodite Macbain: I'll look it all up
Aphrodite Macbain: I'll look up it all
Aphrodite Macbain: anyway
Calvino Rabeni: looking at the consequences that would result if lots of people agreed reality was a certain way, what would be the ethical effect
Calvino Rabeni: like .. littering
Zen (zen.arado): '"Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law."[1]'
Calvino Rabeni: littering is bad,not because of one thing I might throw, but because what the environment would consist of if everybody did it
Aphrodite Macbain: Ohh - that one!
Calvino Rabeni: yes, that's concise
Aphrodite Macbain: So act inaccordance with the common good?
Calvino Rabeni: that's part of it
Zen (zen.arado): that's more like Utilitarianism Cal
Aphrodite Macbain: Act for everyone
Calvino Rabeni: a kind of belief consequentialism
Zen (zen.arado): consequentialism
Aphrodite Macbain: maybe they are related
Aphrodite Macbain: It makes one responsible for one's actions
Calvino Rabeni: yeah, it makes a link between belief and ethics
Aphrodite Macbain: and consider them carefully
Calvino Rabeni: true
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Zen (zen.arado): it is still an individualistic outlook
Calvino Rabeni: in a way
Aphrodite Macbain: It would have to be, wouldn't it?
Zen (zen.arado): we act in concert with others
Calvino Rabeni: it shows a sort of one-way input from indivual action to a collective
Aphrodite Macbain: So how would you phrase it Zen?
Zen (zen.arado): we are not lone individuals
Aphrodite Macbain: but we make our own decisions
Zen (zen.arado): do we?
Aphrodite Macbain: ofr think we do
Zen (zen.arado): I wonder
Calvino Rabeni: yeah, that seems really true, but for some reason needs to be repeated a lot
Aphrodite Macbain: that was the point of the discussion
Zen (zen.arado): what I choose is the result of everthing that went before
Calvino Rabeni: yeah
Calvino Rabeni: nothing much original
Aphrodite Macbain: what do we do of our own free will?
Calvino Rabeni: nothing independently created
Zen (zen.arado): free will is just a concept to me
Aphrodite Macbain: but it can still be authentic-true to one's own beliefs
Calvino Rabeni: just a concept means, not something to commit to ontologically
Zen (zen.arado): maybe it has to be
Zen (zen.arado): why would we do something foreigh to our nature?
Calvino Rabeni: there are lots of things that seem pretty fictional, that are really useful to make part of a consensus belief system about reality
Calvino Rabeni: because of their effects on the collective
Aphrodite Macbain: Hmm too bad you cant come to the retreat you guys(and girl)
Zen (zen.arado): we act from the whole of out backgrond and societal conditioning
Calvino Rabeni: societal influence include a lot more complexity than conditioning
Zen (zen.arado): hey getting late for me
Calvino Rabeni: maybe finding more releative freedom is making distinctions there
Calvino Rabeni: ok Zen :)
Aphrodite Macbain: But we dont need to. We can become conscious of doing this and change our behaviour. We do this constantly as we grow older, changing our attitudes based on new knowledge, awareness and experience
Calvino Rabeni: thanks for getting into it here .. always a pleasure
Zen (zen.arado): yes thanks
Calvino Rabeni: Don't need to, what?
Aphrodite Macbain: maybe finding more releative freedom is making distinctions there - Yes cal
Aphrodite Macbain: we dont need to act out of social conditioning Cal
Zen (zen.arado): what did we say for next week?
Calvino Rabeni: we didn't say ...
Calvino Rabeni: more in-depth on depth?
Zen (zen.arado): yeh sure
Calvino Rabeni: we've barely scratched the surface of depth :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain holds her nose and jumps
Zen (zen.arado): byee
Calvino Rabeni: would be nice to have a bigger group
Calvino Rabeni: bye Zen, Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
Aphrodite Macbain: he he Bye! all