04.29.2011- How to Be Real

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Gaya :)

Gaya Ethaniel: Hello everyone :)

Fizakaal Wei: hello!

JS Saltwater: hiya Gaya

Calvino Rabeni: Hi .. afraid I have to reboot

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Good luck Cal

Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry I'm late ... RL :)

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): You're on topic, Gaya :)

JS Saltwater: you were being real there?

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): In Being there is no "late."

Gaya Ethaniel: :P

Gaya Ethaniel: I try to be 'real' whether in SL or RL :)

Gaya Ethaniel: I met someone quite humble today ...

Zon Kwan: i dont know what real means

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Is "being real" something to aspire to or something to accept?

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes, it is an ethical principle I agree with, Gaya.

Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... a good question Atari ...

Zon Kwan: what does it mean to be real ?

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): (I think it's probably a little of both)

Gaya Ethaniel: Yes being 'real' probably is a complex topic :)

Zon Kwan: to be present ?

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): perhaps inclusive of the entire universe -- or many of them.

JS Saltwater: I particularly enjoyed Calvino's parsing of the concept

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Dao :)

Fizakaal Wei: share it, JS :)

Gaya Ethaniel: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Guardian...ing/Being_Real

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Can you paraphrase Cal's comment, please?

JS Saltwater: hah Fiz - the URL?

JS Saltwater: well he looked at "being real" from a number of perspectives: mental, physical, etc

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): GOIT it -- thanks

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): oops,, meant to type GOT it.

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): wb Cal

Gaya Ethaniel: Got it :)

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): :)

JS Saltwater: just liked the way he unpacked the term

Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Dao and wb Cal :)

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): You are so forgiving, and I appreciate that.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): hEY, dAO AND cAL.

Zon Kwan: but in short could u say the to be real is to be present

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me thinks ooops, again.

Dao Yheng: (Hi all, sorry I'm late)

Gaya Ethaniel: :)

JS Saltwater: Cal I was just saying how I enjoyed your piece for today Cal

Calvino Rabeni: oh thanks :)

JS Saltwater: (redundantly)

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me ponders, To be real is to be present.

Calvino Rabeni: zon's summary would be good for it :)

JS Saltwater: physically present?

Zon Kwan: existentially

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I like that

Gaya Ethaniel: Dao, Cal's report is here - http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Guardian...ing/Being_Real

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me wonders if he needs to disappear again - in order to be 'present'

Calvino Rabeni: I tried that ... it helped :)

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): But does it imply something greater? Like, authenticity, self actualization, being everything you can be?

Calvino Rabeni: I'll go along with that

Zon Kwan: hm

JS Saltwater: could be but don't all those things make the (nonexistent) self paramaout? is that real?

Zon Kwan: is that greater or dreaming

Gaya Ethaniel: I think it can be quite practical too, like noticing people.

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Oh, good point, Gaya

JS Saltwater: that was why I liked what Cal said about just taking your shoes off and running around naked :)

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): hehe

Zon Kwan: yes

Calvino Rabeni: try it, you'll like it :)

JS Saltwater: that has zero to do with the subjectivity inside my head

JS Saltwater: oh I have! :)

Gaya Ethaniel: Can you say a bit more about subject/object/relationship Cal?

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me has often hiked the "back-woods" naked.

Zon Kwan: ah thats the ccore

Zon Kwan: subject-object

Calvino Rabeni: its an artificial way of describing an organic unity

Calvino Rabeni: and relationship

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Pix

Calvino Rabeni: those assumed ideas of inside and outside, subject and object don't really hold up to scrutiny

Zon Kwan: mind works that way...making distinctions

Pixukah123: alguem fala portugues?

Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pixukah :) I will IM you about the meeting.

Calvino Rabeni: distinctions can be helpful if used well

Pixukah123: não entendo

JS Saltwater: Pix is being real

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Are we all always being real? Is it something we only have to notice?

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Welcome, Pix.

Dao Yheng: Good point, Atari!

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I know a proverb from the Portuguese about guests,

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): It says,

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Guests bring happiness...

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): where in the arriving

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): or in the departure.

Zon Kwan: yes especially thnr

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :)

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): whether in the arriving or in the departure.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): (sry)

Calvino Rabeni: nice proverb

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): i like it, yes, and thanks.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): But what is REAL about it?

Calvino Rabeni: it speaks to a feeling of happiness being possible on the edge of change

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): There's a very short Rumi poem that's very similar.

Zon Kwan: all is real..some rela thigs just last longer

Pixukah123: Anyone speak Portuguese?

Calvino Rabeni: I do not think so, Pix

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): What I get from it is the fact that things come and go in life, but we can choose to acknowledge the good that comes into our lives

Gaya Ethaniel: I have explained stuff to Pixukah in IM :)

Zon Kwan: goes to have a real dream....waves

Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Atari :)

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Leap well, Zon :)

Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Zon :)

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me ponders "acknowledging the good" and feels that is a good principle to follow.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Perhaps acknowledging the Good is what makes us Real.

JS Saltwater: I am still enjoying the tension between realness being something you strive for vs something you acknowledge

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Mm

Pixukah123: To where do I get someone who speaks Portuguese?

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me has a inkling that "real" is not something one strives for.

Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, it's so hard to be good sometimes so appreciating it is good I think :)

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Sometimes we forget

Gaya Ethaniel: Too often I forget ...

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Me too.

Gaya Ethaniel: :)

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I continuously forget.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Is forgetting "real"?

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hmmm...continuously forgetting...at least you see everything with fresh eyes :)

JS Saltwater: lol

Gaya Ethaniel: :)

JS Saltwater: though a therapist once told me that forgetting is a way to not do things you'd rather not do, so its a kind of unconscious dishonesty in some cases

JS Saltwater: like forgetting homework or laundry

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I watched my brother "forgetting" during his one-week visit here -- and I interpreted that as "dementia" -- but now I think I was wrong.

Calvino Rabeni: sometimes meditation is like forgetting then remembering again, but with a difference

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Mm, I can see that.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Ahhh -- THE DIFERENCE!

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): DIFFERENCE.

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Remembering to forget.

Fizakaal Wei: what are you forgetting during meditation, Cal

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): (a different spelling, of course.)

Fizakaal Wei: is it a letting go? Or actual forgetting

Calvino Rabeni: perhaps forgetting outdated ideas of reality

Calvino Rabeni: letting go of identifications

JS Saltwater: temporary amnesia :)

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): letting go of reference points.....?

Gaya Ethaniel: :)

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ahhhh! Freedom!

Fizakaal Wei: identifications- do you mean like judgement?

Calvino Rabeni: I mean ... stuck on an idea of how things are, rather than following how things are

Calvino Rabeni: oversimplification

Calvino Rabeni: life is complex .. but it tends to get boiled down to just a few response patterns, body structures or symbols

Calvino Rabeni: fixed ideas, tension patterns in the body

JS Saltwater: the fight/flight ontological imperative :)

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Laziness concerning being "real"?

Calvino Rabeni: the "idea" of what happened, takes the place of being in relationship with what is happening

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): or fear of "real"?

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): It can be hard to let go of patterns that don't even help us anymore

JS Saltwater: but what if those patterns identifications etc are good? do we still want to let go of them, eg in meditation?

Calvino Rabeni: it could be called learning ... or memory

Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ...

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): We can let go of them temporarily, so we can choose to keep repeating them or not, I think

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me feels a pathos rising -- something about the courage to Be.

Gaya Ethaniel: You mean as in 'right view' in Buddhism JS?

Calvino Rabeni: a natural process of finding a relationship with something, that isn't as dynamic as reality ... then we have to constantly find out we're not tracking it, and destroy or update the idea again

Dao Yheng: brb

Gaya Ethaniel: ok

JS Saltwater: not sure Gaya

Gaya Ethaniel: ok

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me suspects there is a "maturation" element - and that it's possible some folks do not have the capacity to be "real" on our terms.

Calvino Rabeni: good identifications ... should be easy to reconstruct when coming out of meditation

Calvino Rabeni: good point Bruce

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): compassion is indicated here.

Calvino Rabeni: maturation or development happen in stages according to some views

Fizakaal Wei: i think some people may struggle with the idea, because it is too frightening

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, I am one of those.

Calvino Rabeni: the idea of development does frighten people

JS Saltwater: =change

Fizakaal Wei: lots of people have the capacity, but it is hard and scary work

Calvino Rabeni: or the idea of people having fundamentally divergent perspectives

JS Saltwater: what is scary about it Fiz?

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): A personal note: I am scared to death to attend the retreat in Halifax in July -- because it will be so "REAL."

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): so, I am having compassion for my fear, right now.

Gaya Ethaniel: :)

Fizakaal Wei: to reveal your "real" self to yourself- you have to be ready to look at some aspect you may rather not

Gaya Ethaniel: /me nods.

JS Saltwater: so that would be the danger in any inquiry, I guess - you might Find Out.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, agrees with Fiz.

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think that being real is multifaceted....one aspect of being real may just be being honest with yourself, acknowledging negative emotions that you're feeling. Another aspect may be having the foresight not to direct those emotions at others.

Calvino Rabeni: sometimes fear + compassion + capability = excitement

Calvino Rabeni: there's always some next thing to "find out" and in my experience, a happy medium between not enough and too much change

Fizakaal Wei: it is most imortant, first of all, to have compassion towards yourself

JS Saltwater: agreed

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, compassion toward yourself is primary.

Gaya Ethaniel: I think 'you might Find Out' bit is quite similar in all of us ... if that's any comfort :)

Calvino Rabeni: Fear of change is natural, so is hunger for change, and I like to think these opposing tendencies tend to balance out to a workable medium

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): comfort indeed, thank you.

Gaya Ethaniel: :)

JS Saltwater: nicely said Cal

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes, Cal :)

Fizakaal Wei: I agree, Gaya

Gaya Ethaniel: Fresh eyes help :P

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :)

JS Saltwater: sometimes we misattribute excitement and think it's fear because we've been taught so

JS Saltwater: "this should scare me"

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me grabs pen and paper to write down Opposing tendencies tend to balance out to a workable medium -- There is wisdom there!

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): thank you.

Gaya Ethaniel: That's true JS, often when I just feel, it's hard to say what it is.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): @ JS -- actually, this is real fear..

Calvino Rabeni: sometimes it is basically the same feeling .. fear and excitement .. depend on how much awareness and capacity is present

Fizakaal Wei: you would Hope they would balance out!

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and I am still pndering what is "real" about it.

Fizakaal Wei: I don't know if that is necessarily true

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think we often name our emotions after the fact, in a way....

Calvino Rabeni: yes

Calvino Rabeni: they have layers and layers

JS Saltwater: I think the psychs call that Attribution Theory

Calvino Rabeni: which are actively held in place

Calvino Rabeni: the names don't help much, I think

JS Saltwater: the post-hoc ident

Calvino Rabeni: yes

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Oh, interesting, JS...I wasn't aware there was a name :)

Fizakaal Wei: for some people, naming emotions even after the fact is difficult!

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes

JS Saltwater: names thus also strike a balance between helping and not :)

Calvino Rabeni: some therapeutic moves consist of renaming experiences

JS Saltwater: nods

Calvino Rabeni: to emphasize other possibilities of being in relationship with them

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): So, renaming experience is "real"?

Calvino Rabeni: like a "creative dilemma"

Calvino Rabeni: instead of a problem

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): renaming MAKES it "real" then?

Calvino Rabeni: if that helps bring in awareness and capacity, then it works

Fizakaal Wei: renaming helps to identify, so when they occur again you can recognize them more easily

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): That sounds a bit like, If it's reported on the news, then it 'really' fhappened - otherwise not.

Calvino Rabeni: naming I think, only works if it "calls" to some facet of reality that is present but latent in awareness

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): History is 'real" because it got reported.

JS Saltwater: agreed Fiz

Calvino Rabeni: well, naming also pulls together a perspective and way of relating

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): i think that's just holding onto reference points -- not making "reality."

Calvino Rabeni: that is future oriented

Fizakaal Wei: thats why it would be important for the person experience the emotion to detemine if it was named correctly

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): empathy = reality, then?

Calvino Rabeni: perspectives are dynamic orientations, not matters of fact and definition

Gaya Ethaniel: I think it's helpful not to rush into naming.

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): It would be interesting to try and rename common emotions, experiences, objects and so on

Calvino Rabeni: it would be :)

JS Saltwater: /me wonders if that's a nice side-benefit of learning a new language)

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): For me, I am most "real" when I am able empathize.

Gaya Ethaniel: :)

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): TO empathize, sry.

Calvino Rabeni: Well I agree, Bruce, but also interested in how that works

Gaya Ethaniel: :)

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me listens.

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes, JS!

Calvino Rabeni: I liked learning emotion concepts in another language, since it brought different perspectives

Calvino Rabeni: (talking 2 threads here ...naming, and empathy)

Gaya Ethaniel: OK almost time to wrap ...

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): What is "language" but a collection of reference points?

Calvino Rabeni: much more, bruce

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hmmmmm.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me does not doubt that.

Calvino Rabeni: it wraps context, relationship, intention, desire, past, future, other minds ...

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey Gaya!

Gaya Ethaniel: How shall we continue next week? There are some suggestions from the past too.

Gaya Ethaniel: :)

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Go for it, gal! How about a topic for next time???

Calvino Rabeni: :)

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me is now empathizing with Gaya.

Gaya Ethaniel: :)

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): :)

Calvino Rabeni: How does empathy "work"?

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Empathy works for moi!

Gaya Ethaniel: :)

Fizakaal Wei: it allows you to let go of judgement

Calvino Rabeni: perhaps in subtle ways

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): hehe Bruce :)

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I meant as a topic for next week.

JS Saltwater: empathy is cool with me

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I can relate to that

Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, an insider view on empathy

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): OK, then.

Gaya Ethaniel: Empathy it is then :)

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yayyyyy!

Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks so much everyone for participating again.

Calvino Rabeni: Good deal :)

JS Saltwater: enjoyed it folks

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Thank YOU, Gaya!!!!

Fizakaal Wei: thanks everyone :)

Calvino Rabeni: Yes, thanks to all the steady ones :)

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :)

Calvino Rabeni: And the others :)

JS Saltwater: I'm unsteady, personally

Calvino Rabeni: Same here

Fizakaal Wei: /me grabs JS's arm

Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure what star I orbit

JS Saltwater: ty Fiz

Fizakaal Wei: easy there

Fizakaal Wei: yvw

Gaya Ethaniel: :)

JS Saltwater: thank goodness my rock was there

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :)

Gaya Ethaniel: See you soon!

Fizakaal Wei: aww

JS Saltwater: see ya folks