Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Gaya :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello everyone :)
Fizakaal Wei: hello!
JS Saltwater: hiya Gaya
Calvino Rabeni: Hi .. afraid I have to reboot
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Good luck Cal
Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry I'm late ... RL :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): You're on topic, Gaya :)
JS Saltwater: you were being real there?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): In Being there is no "late."
Gaya Ethaniel: :P
Gaya Ethaniel: I try to be 'real' whether in SL or RL :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I met someone quite humble today ...
Zon Kwan: i dont know what real means
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Is "being real" something to aspire to or something to accept?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes, it is an ethical principle I agree with, Gaya.
Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... a good question Atari ...
Zon Kwan: what does it mean to be real ?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): (I think it's probably a little of both)
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes being 'real' probably is a complex topic :)
Zon Kwan: to be present ?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): perhaps inclusive of the entire universe -- or many of them.
JS Saltwater: I particularly enjoyed Calvino's parsing of the concept
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Dao :)
Fizakaal Wei: share it, JS :)
Gaya Ethaniel: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Guardian...ing/Being_Real
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Can you paraphrase Cal's comment, please?
JS Saltwater: hah Fiz - the URL?
JS Saltwater: well he looked at "being real" from a number of perspectives: mental, physical, etc
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): GOIT it -- thanks
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): oops,, meant to type GOT it.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): wb Cal
Gaya Ethaniel: Got it :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): :)
JS Saltwater: just liked the way he unpacked the term
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Dao and wb Cal :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): You are so forgiving, and I appreciate that.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): hEY, dAO AND cAL.
Zon Kwan: but in short could u say the to be real is to be present
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me thinks ooops, again.
Dao Yheng: (Hi all, sorry I'm late)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
JS Saltwater: Cal I was just saying how I enjoyed your piece for today Cal
Calvino Rabeni: oh thanks :)
JS Saltwater: (redundantly)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me ponders, To be real is to be present.
Calvino Rabeni: zon's summary would be good for it :)
JS Saltwater: physically present?
Zon Kwan: existentially
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I like that
Gaya Ethaniel: Dao, Cal's report is here - http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Guardian...ing/Being_Real
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me wonders if he needs to disappear again - in order to be 'present'
Calvino Rabeni: I tried that ... it helped :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): But does it imply something greater? Like, authenticity, self actualization, being everything you can be?
Calvino Rabeni: I'll go along with that
Zon Kwan: hm
JS Saltwater: could be but don't all those things make the (nonexistent) self paramaout? is that real?
Zon Kwan: is that greater or dreaming
Gaya Ethaniel: I think it can be quite practical too, like noticing people.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Oh, good point, Gaya
JS Saltwater: that was why I liked what Cal said about just taking your shoes off and running around naked :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): hehe
Zon Kwan: yes
Calvino Rabeni: try it, you'll like it :)
JS Saltwater: that has zero to do with the subjectivity inside my head
JS Saltwater: oh I have! :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Can you say a bit more about subject/object/relationship Cal?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me has often hiked the "back-woods" naked.
Zon Kwan: ah thats the ccore
Zon Kwan: subject-object
Calvino Rabeni: its an artificial way of describing an organic unity
Calvino Rabeni: and relationship
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Pix
Calvino Rabeni: those assumed ideas of inside and outside, subject and object don't really hold up to scrutiny
Zon Kwan: mind works that way...making distinctions
Pixukah123: alguem fala portugues?
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pixukah :) I will IM you about the meeting.
Calvino Rabeni: distinctions can be helpful if used well
Pixukah123: não entendo
JS Saltwater: Pix is being real
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Are we all always being real? Is it something we only have to notice?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Welcome, Pix.
Dao Yheng: Good point, Atari!
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I know a proverb from the Portuguese about guests,
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): It says,
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Guests bring happiness...
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): where in the arriving
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): or in the departure.
Zon Kwan: yes especially thnr
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): whether in the arriving or in the departure.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): (sry)
Calvino Rabeni: nice proverb
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): i like it, yes, and thanks.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): But what is REAL about it?
Calvino Rabeni: it speaks to a feeling of happiness being possible on the edge of change
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): There's a very short Rumi poem that's very similar.
Zon Kwan: all is real..some rela thigs just last longer
Pixukah123: Anyone speak Portuguese?
Calvino Rabeni: I do not think so, Pix
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): What I get from it is the fact that things come and go in life, but we can choose to acknowledge the good that comes into our lives
Gaya Ethaniel: I have explained stuff to Pixukah in IM :)
Zon Kwan: goes to have a real dream....waves
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Atari :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Leap well, Zon :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Zon :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me ponders "acknowledging the good" and feels that is a good principle to follow.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Perhaps acknowledging the Good is what makes us Real.
JS Saltwater: I am still enjoying the tension between realness being something you strive for vs something you acknowledge
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Mm
Pixukah123: To where do I get someone who speaks Portuguese?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me has a inkling that "real" is not something one strives for.
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, it's so hard to be good sometimes so appreciating it is good I think :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Sometimes we forget
Gaya Ethaniel: Too often I forget ...
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Me too.
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I continuously forget.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Is forgetting "real"?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hmmm...continuously forgetting...at least you see everything with fresh eyes :)
JS Saltwater: lol
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
JS Saltwater: though a therapist once told me that forgetting is a way to not do things you'd rather not do, so its a kind of unconscious dishonesty in some cases
JS Saltwater: like forgetting homework or laundry
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I watched my brother "forgetting" during his one-week visit here -- and I interpreted that as "dementia" -- but now I think I was wrong.
Calvino Rabeni: sometimes meditation is like forgetting then remembering again, but with a difference
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Mm, I can see that.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Ahhh -- THE DIFERENCE!
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): DIFFERENCE.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Remembering to forget.
Fizakaal Wei: what are you forgetting during meditation, Cal
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): (a different spelling, of course.)
Fizakaal Wei: is it a letting go? Or actual forgetting
Calvino Rabeni: perhaps forgetting outdated ideas of reality
Calvino Rabeni: letting go of identifications
JS Saltwater: temporary amnesia :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): letting go of reference points.....?
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ahhhh! Freedom!
Fizakaal Wei: identifications- do you mean like judgement?
Calvino Rabeni: I mean ... stuck on an idea of how things are, rather than following how things are
Calvino Rabeni: oversimplification
Calvino Rabeni: life is complex .. but it tends to get boiled down to just a few response patterns, body structures or symbols
Calvino Rabeni: fixed ideas, tension patterns in the body
JS Saltwater: the fight/flight ontological imperative :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Laziness concerning being "real"?
Calvino Rabeni: the "idea" of what happened, takes the place of being in relationship with what is happening
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): or fear of "real"?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): It can be hard to let go of patterns that don't even help us anymore
JS Saltwater: but what if those patterns identifications etc are good? do we still want to let go of them, eg in meditation?
Calvino Rabeni: it could be called learning ... or memory
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ...
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): We can let go of them temporarily, so we can choose to keep repeating them or not, I think
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me feels a pathos rising -- something about the courage to Be.
Gaya Ethaniel: You mean as in 'right view' in Buddhism JS?
Calvino Rabeni: a natural process of finding a relationship with something, that isn't as dynamic as reality ... then we have to constantly find out we're not tracking it, and destroy or update the idea again
Dao Yheng: brb
Gaya Ethaniel: ok
JS Saltwater: not sure Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: ok
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me suspects there is a "maturation" element - and that it's possible some folks do not have the capacity to be "real" on our terms.
Calvino Rabeni: good identifications ... should be easy to reconstruct when coming out of meditation
Calvino Rabeni: good point Bruce
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): compassion is indicated here.
Calvino Rabeni: maturation or development happen in stages according to some views
Fizakaal Wei: i think some people may struggle with the idea, because it is too frightening
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, I am one of those.
Calvino Rabeni: the idea of development does frighten people
JS Saltwater: =change
Fizakaal Wei: lots of people have the capacity, but it is hard and scary work
Calvino Rabeni: or the idea of people having fundamentally divergent perspectives
JS Saltwater: what is scary about it Fiz?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): A personal note: I am scared to death to attend the retreat in Halifax in July -- because it will be so "REAL."
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): so, I am having compassion for my fear, right now.
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Fizakaal Wei: to reveal your "real" self to yourself- you have to be ready to look at some aspect you may rather not
Gaya Ethaniel: /me nods.
JS Saltwater: so that would be the danger in any inquiry, I guess - you might Find Out.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, agrees with Fiz.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think that being real is multifaceted....one aspect of being real may just be being honest with yourself, acknowledging negative emotions that you're feeling. Another aspect may be having the foresight not to direct those emotions at others.
Calvino Rabeni: sometimes fear + compassion + capability = excitement
Calvino Rabeni: there's always some next thing to "find out" and in my experience, a happy medium between not enough and too much change
Fizakaal Wei: it is most imortant, first of all, to have compassion towards yourself
JS Saltwater: agreed
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, compassion toward yourself is primary.
Gaya Ethaniel: I think 'you might Find Out' bit is quite similar in all of us ... if that's any comfort :)
Calvino Rabeni: Fear of change is natural, so is hunger for change, and I like to think these opposing tendencies tend to balance out to a workable medium
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): comfort indeed, thank you.
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
JS Saltwater: nicely said Cal
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes, Cal :)
Fizakaal Wei: I agree, Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: Fresh eyes help :P
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :)
JS Saltwater: sometimes we misattribute excitement and think it's fear because we've been taught so
JS Saltwater: "this should scare me"
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me grabs pen and paper to write down Opposing tendencies tend to balance out to a workable medium -- There is wisdom there!
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): thank you.
Gaya Ethaniel: That's true JS, often when I just feel, it's hard to say what it is.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): @ JS -- actually, this is real fear..
Calvino Rabeni: sometimes it is basically the same feeling .. fear and excitement .. depend on how much awareness and capacity is present
Fizakaal Wei: you would Hope they would balance out!
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and I am still pndering what is "real" about it.
Fizakaal Wei: I don't know if that is necessarily true
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think we often name our emotions after the fact, in a way....
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Calvino Rabeni: they have layers and layers
JS Saltwater: I think the psychs call that Attribution Theory
Calvino Rabeni: which are actively held in place
Calvino Rabeni: the names don't help much, I think
JS Saltwater: the post-hoc ident
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Oh, interesting, JS...I wasn't aware there was a name :)
Fizakaal Wei: for some people, naming emotions even after the fact is difficult!
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes
JS Saltwater: names thus also strike a balance between helping and not :)
Calvino Rabeni: some therapeutic moves consist of renaming experiences
JS Saltwater: nods
Calvino Rabeni: to emphasize other possibilities of being in relationship with them
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): So, renaming experience is "real"?
Calvino Rabeni: like a "creative dilemma"
Calvino Rabeni: instead of a problem
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): renaming MAKES it "real" then?
Calvino Rabeni: if that helps bring in awareness and capacity, then it works
Fizakaal Wei: renaming helps to identify, so when they occur again you can recognize them more easily
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): That sounds a bit like, If it's reported on the news, then it 'really' fhappened - otherwise not.
Calvino Rabeni: naming I think, only works if it "calls" to some facet of reality that is present but latent in awareness
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): History is 'real" because it got reported.
JS Saltwater: agreed Fiz
Calvino Rabeni: well, naming also pulls together a perspective and way of relating
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): i think that's just holding onto reference points -- not making "reality."
Calvino Rabeni: that is future oriented
Fizakaal Wei: thats why it would be important for the person experience the emotion to detemine if it was named correctly
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): empathy = reality, then?
Calvino Rabeni: perspectives are dynamic orientations, not matters of fact and definition
Gaya Ethaniel: I think it's helpful not to rush into naming.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): It would be interesting to try and rename common emotions, experiences, objects and so on
Calvino Rabeni: it would be :)
JS Saltwater: /me wonders if that's a nice side-benefit of learning a new language)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): For me, I am most "real" when I am able empathize.
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): TO empathize, sry.
Calvino Rabeni: Well I agree, Bruce, but also interested in how that works
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me listens.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes, JS!
Calvino Rabeni: I liked learning emotion concepts in another language, since it brought different perspectives
Calvino Rabeni: (talking 2 threads here ...naming, and empathy)
Gaya Ethaniel: OK almost time to wrap ...
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): What is "language" but a collection of reference points?
Calvino Rabeni: much more, bruce
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hmmmmm.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me does not doubt that.
Calvino Rabeni: it wraps context, relationship, intention, desire, past, future, other minds ...
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey Gaya!
Gaya Ethaniel: How shall we continue next week? There are some suggestions from the past too.
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Go for it, gal! How about a topic for next time???
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me is now empathizing with Gaya.
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): :)
Calvino Rabeni: How does empathy "work"?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Empathy works for moi!
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Fizakaal Wei: it allows you to let go of judgement
Calvino Rabeni: perhaps in subtle ways
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): hehe Bruce :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I meant as a topic for next week.
JS Saltwater: empathy is cool with me
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I can relate to that
Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, an insider view on empathy
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): OK, then.
Gaya Ethaniel: Empathy it is then :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yayyyyy!
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks so much everyone for participating again.
Calvino Rabeni: Good deal :)
JS Saltwater: enjoyed it folks
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Thank YOU, Gaya!!!!
Fizakaal Wei: thanks everyone :)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, thanks to all the steady ones :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :)
Calvino Rabeni: And the others :)
JS Saltwater: I'm unsteady, personally
Calvino Rabeni: Same here
Fizakaal Wei: /me grabs JS's arm
Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure what star I orbit
JS Saltwater: ty Fiz
Fizakaal Wei: easy there
Fizakaal Wei: yvw
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
JS Saltwater: thank goodness my rock was there
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :)
Gaya Ethaniel: See you soon!
Fizakaal Wei: aww
JS Saltwater: see ya folks
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