06.23.2011 - Jealousy, Monogamy & Attachment

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    Zen (zen.arado): maybe we should start?
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Hmm, seems like a plan
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): cool avec moi.
    Zen (zen.arado): I'm earlier than usual tonight
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Yay
    Zen (zen.arado): we usually srat around this time?
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): You come early and nobody else shows up :(
    Zen (zen.arado): ha ha yes typical !
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Innit?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): i thought you entrance was quite fashionable, Zen -- not too early -- not to late... in fact, I'm a bit jealous of it, because when I arrived, no one was here to SEE ,e.
    Zen (zen.arado): they do it for badness
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): your*
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me meant to type -- No one was here to SEE me.
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Aww
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me is jealous of everyone else's typing skills.
    Zen (zen.arado): trtying to find a way into the topic
    Zen (zen.arado): what did you thnk of the article?
    Zen (zen.arado): is the author going too far
    Zen (zen.arado): he seems to think our ideas about being true to just one partner are outdated
    Zen (zen.arado): 'that Buddhist principles can be, and should be, extended to the realm of intimate relationships.'
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): People have been saying that for years
    Zen (zen.arado): have they?
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): AFAIK
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Since the 60s at least
    Zen (zen.arado): I was surpried to see it in a Buddhist article
    Zen (zen.arado): most seem to adhere to strict monogamy
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Nothing about Buddhist articles would surprise me :p
    Zen (zen.arado): free love?
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): If it's free I'll take one
    Zen (zen.arado): :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Mila (milakel): hi :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Here comes Mila!
    Wol Euler: hello mila
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Mila :)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Mila!
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'd take love anytime
    Mila (milakel): what meeting is that?
    Mila (milakel): oh, new furry girl :)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Who?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Wol
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): She's been furry for a week now
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): or more
    Wol Euler: no, you've seen this av before. You just didn't notice
    Mila (milakel): in little black polka dots :)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Well spotted
    Wol Euler: :)
    Mila (milakel): horns :)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Antlers
    Mila (milakel): ah
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): /me nods
    Mila (milakel): antlers sounds better
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): I've never seen Wol horny :D
    Mila (milakel): huh? :)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): That's what I said....
    Wol Euler: /me chokes on her tea and makes spluttering noises
    Mila (milakel): hehe
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Zen, I'd really like to hear an "I-statement" from you about your opinion (feeling, resentment, agreement, etc.) regarding Buddhism, jealousy -- and (if you wish) the matter of monogamy, celibacy, open-relationships, etc.
    Mila (milakel): that's like asking for the meaning of life, bruce :)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): 42?
    Zen (zen.arado): I read a book called 'The Ethical Slut' recently
    Mila (milakel): oh, do tell more
    Wol Euler: /me grins.
    Zen (zen.arado): and it has given me a lot to think about
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Well, Zen has raised those specific topics -- so I'd like to hear more from him.
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Agreed
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and from anyone else who has feeling about these things.
    Wol Euler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethical_Slut
    Zen (zen.arado): the authors raise a lot of good [points
    Zen (zen.arado): I made some notes
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Now I know two people named Lizt
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): +s
    Zen (zen.arado): Why is it ok for men to be 'stud's' but women being 'sluts' is so frowned upon in Western societies?
    Aphrodite Macbain: It's easier to be one than be with one, I would think
    Wol Euler: /me nods.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): 'sex is nice and pleasure is good for you'
    Zen (zen.arado): so there are double standards for men and women
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): I like it
    Mila (milakel): quote: The authors define the term slut as "a person of any gender who has the courage to lead life according to the radical proposition that sex is nice and pleasure is good for you."
    Wol Euler: /me smiles.
    Aphrodite Macbain: The authors define the term slut as "a person of any genderr
    Mila (milakel): aren't we all sluts?
    Wol Euler: no, mila
    Mila (milakel): according to this definition
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): IMHO, men are far more insecure in their sexuality, generally, than women are -- and far more insecure in their relationships -- so they make rules that restrict women to a narrower range of behaviors than they would restrict themselves to. . .
    Wol Euler: many people act as though they felt that sex was basically wrong
    Mila (milakel): isn't sex nice and pleasure is good?
    Zen (zen.arado): we seem to have so many hang ups in this area
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): (But would prefer to keep the topic on 'Jealousy' than to go off into sexual equality...)
    Zen (zen.arado): so many myths and prejudices
    Aphrodite Macbain: it's about who'sin control, isn't it?
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh but the main point is how jealousy is linked to monogamy
    Mila (milakel): woly, well... is it still so widespread?
    Zen (zen.arado): the idea that my partner is 'mine' for mu exclusive use
    Mila (milakel): zen, good point... is it selfishness? lack of trust?
    Aphrodite Macbain: if we were polygamous, would there be no jealousy?
    Wol Euler: /me raises an eyebrow at "use", but nods.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): or maybe it's about who has the bigger Ego --- by which I mean, who has the ego consolidation. . . that has to "identify" with THINGS he has -- like sexual partners. . .
    Zen (zen.arado): Buddhism ask us to give love to everyone
    Aphrodite Macbain: there are may kinds of love
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): True Aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: we are talking about romantic and sexual love
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Indeed, there are many kinds of loving -- Personally, I don't see how it's possible to ove one person without loving everyone else (including yourself) at the same time.
    Zen (zen.arado): that possessiveness is where the jealousy comes from
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Yes
    Zen (zen.arado): but what kind of love Bruce?
    Zen (zen.arado): not sexual love
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Perhaps there is confusion (Buddhists might call it illusion) - if one's lover is a "possession" ---
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I think it hold for EVERY sort of true love ---
    Zen (zen.arado): but that's mostl y how we think of a partner isn't it?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): How can I make love (pysically -- were I not a monk for 30 years...) to someone without making love to the entire cosmos - simultaneously?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): For me that's simply not a possibility.
    Zen (zen.arado): there are words like 'betrayal' cheating for those who have relations with someone else
    Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder if it's built into our genetic code- to be possessive about our sexual partner
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I have NEVER thought of a partner as a "possession." I do't even think of my DOG as a possession.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): don't*
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): He'll bite you if you do
    Aphrodite Macbain: what would be a better word?
    Aphrodite Macbain: is it not natural to feel jealous?
    Zen (zen.arado): but would you be happy if they had relations with other men?
    Zen (zen.arado): the author of the Buddhst article says' most human mating mechanisms and responses are actually “living fossils” shaped by the genetic pressures of our evolutionary history. The problem, of course, is that patterns that were adaptive millions of years ago might be anything but that today.'
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes, I am familiar with words like "betrayal" and "cheating" --- some folks also use such words in regard to their political affiliations, or to their nation. . . But, I don't buy into such mythologies.
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes- we're hard wired
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): nor do I buy the mythology about "possession" of on'e lover(s) - partner(s)
    Zen (zen.arado): have any of us felt sexual jealousy?
    Zen (zen.arado): I certainly have
    Aphrodite Macbain: mythology Bruce?
    Aphrodite Macbain: me too
    Zen (zen.arado): it is a powerful emotion
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): I guess it's a lot to do with if people want to be possessed or not
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me - one more time - realizes that he's was always "wored" differently.
    Zen (zen.arado): it often leads to murder
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): wired*
    Aphrodite Macbain: a very destructive one. Like hate
    Wol Euler: /me nods.
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: the green-eyed monster that mocks the meat it feeds upon
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): a LOT of mythologies (in fact, MOST of them) lead eventually to murder....
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Murder she wrote
    Zen (zen.arado): well it feels real to those who esperience it
    Aphrodite Macbain: jealousy doesn't always lead to murder or the world's population would be a lot smaller
    Wol Euler: :)
    Zen (zen.arado): I can learn to deal with it
    Mila (milakel): i think we put too much meaning into sexual intercourse. it's infused with a lot of concepts that lead to problems in a relationship.
    Zen (zen.arado): too much emphasis maybe Mila?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I agree mila - that's what my brain tells me
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Does it not seem to others that "possession" and "jealousy" are examples of a narrowing of experience . . . ? As every opinion narrows experience, so does every possession and every attitude of "mine" -- or "I crave that thing, or person, to be MINE."
    Mila (milakel): zen, it's almost a synonym for love in our culture
    Zen (zen.arado): yes Bruce
    Zen (zen.arado): I think that is what the author is getting at
    Aphrodite Macbain: Part of what Buddhists call attachemtnt
    Zen (zen.arado): the exclusiveness of intimate relationships
    Zen (zen.arado): yes Aph
    Zen (zen.arado): but marriage is attachment by definition isn't it?
    Zen (zen.arado): thee only do I wed
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Legally speaking
    Aphrodite Macbain: It's all about who owns the kids and the property
    Zen (zen.arado): emotionally too Aga?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Marriage is a social invention that was born out of ancient attitudes regarding what a "man" and "woman" should be. . .
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): No, I don't believe so
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: and property
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Fortunately, we are finally breaking out of some of that. . .
    Zen (zen.arado): are they still valid?
    Mila (milakel): zne, if not for papers and legal matters, we could easily skip the "attachment" part and just live with a person we love and be happy... in the moment :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): They were NEVER valid -- at least the ones I am thinking about now.
    Zen (zen.arado): The belief that monogamous heterosexual marriage is the ‘right way’ is so deeply entrenched in our culture that it is hard to think past or outside it
    Zen (zen.arado): (from my notes)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps it's best avaoid having any kind of intimate relationship
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): that's true
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): (Zen)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me agrees with Mila -- I was a far happier person when I was living with the woman I eventually married than AFTER were WERE married.
    Mila (milakel): aoh, please no! :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): That's when everything went sour.
    Zen (zen.arado): or go the other way Aga?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Of course, this is just my own experience.
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Which other way?
    Mila (milakel): aph, i think on the contrary you should celebrate it
    Zen (zen.arado): have more than one partner
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Oh I see
    Aphrodite Macbain: but it can bring such pain b/c we make ourselves vulnerable
    Zen (zen.arado): This belief evolved as a way to cope with environmental conditions that no longer are applicable in our dynamic fast-changing societ
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Well that depends on how the parties concerned feel about it
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes
    Mila (milakel): aph, we let ourselves feel this way
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I f a person cannot "handle" himself/herself within intimate relationships (with all that that requires), then it would be best (responding to Aph) that he/she avoid such relationships. I do, in fact, avoid them....
    Zen (zen.arado): Do we need the same security derived from the family unit nowadays? In poor countries maybe. Perhaps children need a stable family unit as they grow up? I often wondered when young about how readily everyone around me accepted that marriage is a must.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I ahve no choice. It bubbles up - amygdila ubre alles
    Aphrodite Macbain: uber
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Amy who?
    Aphrodite Macbain: sp. sorry
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): but there are all sorts of intimacy - - -
    Aphrodite Macbain: the shark brain
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): /me looks around for a shark
    Mila (milakel): bruce, can you elaborate on "handling" an intimate relationship? what does it take?
    Aphrodite Macbain: they're everywhere!
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Agrees that children need a sane, stable family unit ---
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Sounds fishy to me Aph
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Mine was anything BUT that ---- I'd have been much better off having been raised by severa; mothers and fathers -- perhaps in a kibbutz.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): (sp?)
    Zen (zen.arado): handling means making sure he/she stays with you happily?
    Aphrodite Macbain: the urge to mate and then stay together as a couple happens with swans and some other birds
    Aphrodite Macbain: for a practical reason.
    Zen (zen.arado): yes Bruce TES authors believe children could benefit fro that type of upbringing
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): "handling" for me, means that you are responsible and mature enough to be in an intimate relationship -- I know very few individuals who are that mature and responsible, frankly.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Kids are happiest growing up in a marriage that has a loving couple at its core
    Mila (milakel): hmm
    Zen (zen.arado): yes Aph ..that is the main argument against...pair bonding
    Zen (zen.arado): I think
    Mila (milakel): aph, true that
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): I would tend to agree Aph
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I don't know whether I can agree with Aph
    Wol Euler: my sister and BIL didn'T get married until their kids were out of college :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): s point about kids being happy -- I have no experience with that.
    Zen (zen.arado): so it is our nature to pair bond and we are stuck with that?
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): But at least they were still together :p
    Mila (milakel): woly, very responsible :)
    Wol Euler: I agree about the importance of a happy family, but disagree taht this means "marriage"
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): (not me!)
    Aphrodite Macbain: It might well be our nature Zen
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): For marriage substitute relationship
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): "Not me" was an answer to Zen's ? about being stuck with pair bonding -- NOT ME!
    Wol Euler: just being pedantic
    Zen (zen.arado): a partner relationship can have strict rules too?
    Mila (milakel): *still wonders what the meeting/workshop it is*
    Aphrodite Macbain: being raised in a commune or community with grandmothers and uncles taking care of the kids could be another alternative
    Mila (milakel): zen if that's what a couple wants
    Zen (zen.arado): but what about the singles who get left out?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes, Aph.
    Wol Euler: was absolutely standard until about five generations ago
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Probably MOST kids in America are NOT being raised by their father AND mother.
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh but that avoids the issue of intimate relations
    Zen (zen.arado): ust an extended family
    Zen (zen.arado): Sexually repressive attitudes seem to have developed in the late 18th century. It seems however that the sexual energy is only driven underground to emerge in ever more outrageous forms.
    Zen (zen.arado): do you agreee with that?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes, Zen. . . Let's get back to that topic.
    Mila (milakel): "issue of intimate relation" - kind of sad reading this :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: But the sexual norms have increased enormously since the 60s. Are people any happier?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Some would call this human nature -- (consider the Greek tragedies...) not just something that emerged out of the 18th C. ---
    Wol Euler: perhaps sexually repressive attitudes weren'T necessary before that, because most people lived in villages where social control was instant and overall
    Zen (zen.arado): how do you mean Aph?
    Wol Euler: only when people started moving to anonymous cities was it needed
    Zen (zen.arado): good point Wol
    Zen (zen.arado): suspect there was more 'free love' then
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me agrees that rural settings tend to be more conservative (and probably more stable) than urban ones.
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Oh definitely
    Aphrodite Macbain: I mean that free love was all the rage in the 60s and now we have gay marriage etc, but I'm not sure if people are any more or less possessive or jealous because of that
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Maybe they are more so
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): good point, Aph.
    Zen (zen.arado): but was it ever more than an idea practiceed by a minority?
    Aphrodite Macbain: free love?
    Zen (zen.arado): ok gay ppl are allowed openness now
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Zen (zen.arado): I remember ppl talked a lot about it in the 60's but not much happened
    Zen (zen.arado): or maybe I missed it :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): (I missed to too.)
    Mila (milakel): zen, it's been practiced by millions of cheating partners each day :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: there were alot of babies named "freedom" and 'liberty"
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): miss IT too.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): missed*
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): (Whew!)
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-) Bruce
    Zen (zen.arado): well if the cheating rate is going up why do we still find the institutiin so necessary?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I think we reap the "benefits"
    Wol Euler: perhaps becuse it is
    Wol Euler: to keep ourselves (or the ohters!) in line
    Zen (zen.arado): The rise in divorce rates reflects the reality that people are no longer so happy prolonging unsatisfactory marriages and have the necessary economic independence that permits them to leave them.
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): /me cracks the whip
    Wol Euler: /me nods.
    Mila (milakel): aga girl :)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): :p
    Aphrodite Macbain: also people get married more quickly - there is rarely a time for careful reflection, long engagements etc
    Mila (milakel): aph, it depends
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): There are actually TWO institutions, Zen -- the "marriage" that the state recognizes, and the marriage that the church recognizes, and the marriage that the partners themselves recognize. (OK -- THREE institutions.)
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: They know if it doesn't work, they can easily get divorced
    Zen (zen.arado): The rise in divorce rates reflects the reality that people are no longer so happy prolonging unsatisfactory marriages and have the necessary economic independence that permits them to leave them.
    Wol Euler: /me nods to Zen. My sis and BIL were happily not-married for over 25 years
    Wol Euler: guess how many of hteir married friends managed that?
    Zen (zen.arado): drat
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): None?
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Wol Euler: (still are happy but now married)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Good trick
    Aphrodite Macbain: The idea of marriage gives me claustrophobia
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Sounds good to me, Wol.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Me too, Aph.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bad experiences I guess - tho my parents stayed married for over 60 years
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): wow.
    Aphrodite Macbain: but they weren't all that happy
    Mila (milakel): woly, please convey them my admiration :)
    Wol Euler: will do
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh mine too
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Strike a medal
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): My parents wanted a separation after ONE day!
    Wol Euler: O.O
    Mila (milakel): aga, or crack a whip :)
    Wol Euler: did they stay together?
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Well, yeah
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): but they stuck in our for 30 years "for the sake of the kids" -- who suffered because of theyr "loyalty to the institution."
    Aphrodite Macbain: wow. what did you say to change their minds?
    Mila (milakel): one day, interesting
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Well, that's what my mom told me -- that my father wated a divorce after the first night.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Can't imagine why.... ;-)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I wish my dad has "possessed" a prostitute instead of a wife.... If that's how he tyought about it.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Non violent communication - that's the solution! Must go I'm afraid.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I gotta go also. . .
    Zen (zen.arado): bye Aph
    Mila (milakel): aph :)
    Wol Euler: bye aph, take care; bye bruce
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! - must find my bike!!
    Zen (zen.arado): and Bruce
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Interesting topic, Zen. GOOD LUCK, guy!
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): /me watches everybody run off
    Zen (zen.arado): shall we continue next week?
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Yes
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye for now, folks.
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): and get Gaya back!
    Mila (milakel): zen, wait... is it the face workshop?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Oh -- Do we have a topic for next week?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and when is Gaya coming back?
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): And where is Atari?
    Mila (milakel): ah! wok
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): It woks well
    Zen (zen.arado): don't know
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ok.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): bfn, then .
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Ah well
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): /me waves
    Zen (zen.arado): she just said she was taking a break
    Zen (zen.arado): she told all of us
    Wol Euler: /me nods.
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): I wasn't listening
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Probably in the kitchen
    Zen (zen.arado): well I need some help
    (no name): /me milakel takes Wol's tail gently petting the soft fur...
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): A little help from your friends? :)
    Wol Euler: mm?
    Zen (zen.arado): yep
    Wol Euler: /me smiles.
    Mila (milakel): :)
    Wol Euler: what can we do, zen?
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Bet he wants us to model naked
    Mila (milakel): ha!
    Wol Euler: /me grins.
    Zen (zen.arado): well there are 4 hosts and I am the only one here tonight
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Right
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh good start Aga ;)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Just be careful where yer brush goes
    Wol Euler: bodypainting!
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): I'm ticklish
    Zen (zen.arado): sounds interesting
    Mila (milakel): aww, cute :)
    Mila (milakel): *tickles aga girl*
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
    Mila (milakel): hehe
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): So what's the prob Zen?
    Zen (zen.arado): no problem
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Oh
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Ok then :)
    Zen (zen.arado): just feel overworked
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): /me nods
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Try the Chronicles...
    Wol Euler: /me listens
    Zen (zen.arado): SL is turning into a workhouse
    Zen (zen.arado): :)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): I think they're giving poor Adams a breakdown
    Wol Euler: /me nods.
    Zen (zen.arado): everywhere you go they want you to WORK
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Sun too, she never stops
    Zen (zen.arado): I know
    Mila (milakel): i've re-watched "you've got mail" recently. such a lovely movie.
    Zen (zen.arado): and Eliza
    Wol Euler: sounds like you need some time off, zen
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Oh Liz, of course
    Mila (milakel): dao :)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Thing is, we have Guardians on our list we never see or hear of
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh true
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Dao
    Dao Yheng: hi all -- timing's a bit off, but wanted to stop by :)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Hello Dao
    Mila (milakel): aga, true. i think about 20 are really active.
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): It certainly seems no more than that
    Mila (milakel): last time i checked we had 63 members listed
    Zen (zen.arado): is it alright if we continue with this topic next week?
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Jealousy?
    Zen (zen.arado): or is it too sensitive?
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): sure
    Zen (zen.arado): or boring?
    Wol Euler: yep
    Mila (milakel): zen, i'm fine with that
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Fine by me
    Wol Euler: (continue)
    Zen (zen.arado): k good
    Dao Yheng: thanks for suggesting it, Zen
    Zen (zen.arado): want to look at some of the myths of monogamy
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Hm, good idea

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