08.11.2011 - Ways of Knowing Someone

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    [02:04 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: what's the subject for discussion today?
    [02:05 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Ways of knowing others... "When can we say we "know" someone, and what does that mean? Do we know ourselves? On what "levels" can we know someone?"
    [02:05 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Gaya
    [02:05 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Hi Gaya :)
    [02:05 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Aphrodite, Atari and Chi :)
    [02:05 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Good one Ataraxia
    [02:05 PM]  Chi Aho: Hello, Gaya
    [02:05 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: I liked it, too :)
    [02:06 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Hi Bruce :)
    [02:06 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Bruce :)
    [02:06 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Hi Fc :)
    [02:07 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: Hey, Gaya, Aphrodite, Fc, and Chi!
    [02:07 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: and Atari!
    [02:07 PM]  FcSeeker: Hello all
    [02:07 PM]  Chi Aho: Bruce, Seeker
    [02:08 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bruce
    [02:08 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Fc!
    [02:08 PM]  FcSeeker: <3
    [02:09 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: You look very comfy down there Fc
    [02:09 PM]  FcSeeker: then you can see how I feel 'down' here :)
    [02:10 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: nope- cant see how you feel. how do you feel?
    [02:10 PM]  FcSeeker: comfy :)))
    [02:10 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: :)))
    [02:11 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: How do we know what anyone really feels?
    [02:11 PM]  FcSeeker: being open to 'see'
    [02:11 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: that's a beginning for sure
    [02:12 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: but it also depends how much the other wants to reveal
    [02:12 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Sometimes we have little clues...but eventually I think we just have to ask or be told
    [02:12 PM]  FcSeeker: so many people only think themself to be open....
    [02:12 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Hi Zen :)
    [02:12 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
    [02:12 PM]  FcSeeker: Hello Zen
    [02:12 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: GTSY Zen
    [02:12 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: Hey, Zen.
    [02:12 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: Hi all
    [02:13 PM]  Mila [milakel]: hi :)
    [02:13 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Mila
    [02:13 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Hi Mila :)
    [02:13 PM]  Mila [milakel]: do i know you? :)
    [02:13 PM]  Chi Aho: Hi, Mila and zen
    [02:13 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: not really mila
    [02:13 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: Hi Mila :)
    [02:13 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: Hey, Mila!
    [02:14 PM]  Mila [milakel]: the session is over so here i am
    [02:14 PM]  FcSeeker: you Aphrodite are open at least to me because you 'saw' me to feel comfy
    [02:14 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: How much of our knowing someone is about them and how much is about us (our idea of them)?
    [02:14 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    [02:14 PM]  Mila [milakel]: *gets comfy and listens*
    [02:14 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: good question Violet
    [02:15 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: a lot of it is just an image we make up I think
    [02:15 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: how much do we project our expectations on them
    [02:15 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: A lot, I think...
    [02:15 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: don't we project a 'self' onto others?
    [02:15 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: the same as we do for ourselves?
    [02:15 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: whose self Zen?
    [02:16 PM]  Mila [milakel]: violet, i've just said at the pagoda that i think learning about others and yourself is the same process
    [02:16 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: well....we make it up from thigs they have done in the past
    [02:16 PM]  FcSeeker: when the other's open themself to us...
    [02:16 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Yes...we tell stories about everyone. But life isn't story shaped, to paraphrase Neil Gaiman
    [02:16 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Mm, Mila
    [02:16 PM]  Chi Aho: I read a book once called The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life and in that it was said that ppl tend to show us what they want us to see and tell us what they want us to hear.
    [02:17 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: yes was thinking that Chi
    [02:17 PM]  Coffee Mug whispers: Ahh! Fresh Hot Coffee
    [02:17 PM]  Mila [milakel]: yes, chi
    [02:17 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: speaking for myself, I find I am swayed by the appearance of someone and the way they present themselves - so we are doubly caught up in pretence
    [02:17 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Do we present ourselves as we'd like to be seen, or as we feel safe to?
    [02:17 PM]  Mila [milakel]: except griefers
    [02:17 PM]  Mila [milakel]: :)
    [02:17 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: we give them an interpretation of ourselves and they make up another one :)
    [02:17 PM]  Chi Aho: Problem is that an open and authentic person is taken to be naive.
    [02:17 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: our expectations and their "mask"
    [02:17 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: so who are we really then?
    [02:18 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: :)
    [02:18 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Those probably overlap, but I mean--do we get to define what's acceptable to "be" or are we always working within cultural lines?
    [02:18 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: well- some say e aren't anyone- we are a complex, ever changing set of characteristics
    [02:18 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: theer is no centre in the onion
    [02:18 PM]  Mila [milakel]: violet, perhaps, we act in accordance to other people's expectations
    [02:18 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Hi Cal :)
    [02:18 PM]  FcSeeker: Hello Calvino
    [02:19 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: we make sure waht we project fits cultural norme too
    [02:19 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: (And many tears were shed trying to find it!)
    [02:19 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: hello
    [02:19 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: Hi Cal :)
    [02:19 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Hye Cal
    [02:19 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: Hey, Cal.
    [02:19 PM]  Calvino Rabeni waves
    [02:19 PM]  Mila [milakel]: cal :)
    [02:19 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: who are you cal and how do yu know?
    [02:19 PM]  Chi Aho: Hi, Cal; This is Evie, everyone
    [02:19 PM]  FcSeeker: well; when you step out of this 'we' you can stop crying
    [02:19 PM]  Mila [milakel]: aph :)
    [02:19 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Hi Evie :)
    [02:20 PM]  FcSeeker: Hi Evie
    [02:20 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: Welcome, Evie!
    [02:20 PM]  Evie [Evie Meskin]: hello everyone
    [02:20 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: can you say more Fc?
    [02:20 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: Hi Evie
    [02:21 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: Are you suggesting, Fc, (and others) that there is no such thing as "shared experience"?
    [02:21 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: We're discussing "knowing"...what does it mean to say we "know" someone and on what levels can we know each other?
    [02:21 PM]  FcSeeker: well...there's been many such lines that has said that 'we'....imo that's the most common way of not yet enlightened people
    [02:21 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: Hello those arrived ... had to step away for a minute.
    [02:21 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm, I didn't suggest that I don't think
    [02:21 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: yes bugt aren't we so careful about what we share?
    [02:21 PM]  FcSeeker: no Bruce
    [02:21 PM]  FcSeeker: I'm just saying that one can be different than this 'we'
    [02:22 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: who are you calling "we" Fc?
    [02:22 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Sharing can either empower or weaken us...depending on what with share with who
    [02:22 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: (There's that pesky "we")
    [02:22 PM]  Mila [milakel]: *remembers a song "nobody knows me" by weepies; so fitting to the discussion*
    [02:22 PM]  FcSeeker: well; most of the ways of to 'know' have been said as 'we do so and so'
    [02:22 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Is it a royal we?
    [02:22 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: "We" implies shared experience - - but it's very "pesky" indeed.
    [02:23 PM]  FcSeeker: I didn't say 'we'
    [02:23 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: isn't 'interbeing' the way 'we' are?
    [02:23 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus] likes the Weepies :)
    [02:23 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    [02:23 PM]  Mila [milakel]: *winks to violet* :)
    [02:23 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: ah as opposed to speaking for one self and using the "I" word
    [02:23 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado] doesn't know the Weepies :(
    [02:23 PM]  Chi Aho: Well in social life generally ppl are playing roles, and even in close friendships ppl are always holding back part of themselves, understandably.
    [02:24 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: I like Thich Nat Hahn's "Interbeing," but few of us ever relate on that level. . .
    [02:24 PM]  FcSeeker: well; there's said much such that I dont do anymore, so I am not those 'we'...for example to me many things that people tries to hide of themself, I see even more clearly the more they try to hide it...
    [02:24 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: a beautiful concept
    [02:24 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: if wqe dropped our barriers we would ?
    [02:24 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: interbeing
    [02:24 PM]  FcSeeker: and I know that anybody how 'steps out' of that 'we' can truly know other people also
    [02:25 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: I think people get confused about sharing and learning how others communite.
    [02:25 PM]  FcSeeker: sure that's based on to know one's own self ....
    [02:25 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: or perhaps they are more honest with themselves
    [02:25 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: I don't think it is possible to have "shared experience" -- although we can share events and environmentss. . . . but not even Siamese twins can share experience.
    [02:25 PM]  FcSeeker: who 'steps out'
    [02:25 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: Maybe that "interbeing" is the the "approved" version of we. but I think we're in it constantly anyway
    [02:25 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: How others communicate is how one learns about them more not getting some information from 'sharing'.
    [02:25 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: resonance, yes.... but shared? no.
    [02:25 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: in what Cal?
    [02:25 PM]  FcSeeker: honesty is one of the base to 'see'/know
    [02:26 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: In the We
    [02:26 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: we learn from peoples' actions
    [02:26 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Can you elaborate, Gaya?
    [02:26 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: we learn -- but we learn individually, not in shared ways.
    [02:26 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: I don't think we do much of anything individually
    [02:27 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: Well ... first I'm not really sure about what we mean by sharing ...
    [02:27 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: We share information -- but we do not share experience.
    [02:27 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: Anyway ... when we meet new people, we have to learn how they communicate in order to understand them better.
    [02:28 PM]  FcSeeker: we can partly share our experiences telling our stories of them...
    [02:28 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: experiences can be similar but not identical
    [02:28 PM]  Chi Aho: some people hold their hand very close to their chest
    [02:28 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: yes
    [02:28 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: I think this is more important than knowing personal history etc.
    [02:28 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: my point is: our really KNOWING about someone would require our sharing experience (not events, not knowledge, not information) but the actual experience of the other person.
    [02:28 PM]  Chi Aho: and tell you very little at all
    [02:28 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: Because that will be the foundation ...
    [02:28 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: and I say we cannot do that.
    [02:28 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: some are very reluctant to reveal much about themselves in SL I notice
    [02:28 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Mm...
    [02:28 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: to be able to walk in the other's moccasins Bruce?
    [02:29 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: several worthy threads here in parallel, I'm finding it hard to track them
    [02:29 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: guess we can never really know someone
    [02:29 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: Impossible to walk in another's moccasins -- if by that you mean to have his/her actual experiences.
    [02:29 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: me too Cal :)
    [02:29 PM]  FcSeeker: so nicely said Aphrodite :)
    [02:29 PM]  FcSeeker: not impossible Bruce...
    [02:29 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: a handy metaphor that may clarify
    [02:29 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: I think I understand, Gaya.
    [02:30 PM]  FcSeeker: but not so common to people to do
    [02:30 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: I think....even though we can't have identical experiences...we can come close enough to reach understanding. But genuine understanding is difficult to articulate to anyone outside it.
    [02:30 PM]  FcSeeker: that's mostly because people are afraid truly to join with each other in spirit
    [02:31 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: I agree that I canmore fully understand how someone feels if I have experienced a similar experience
    [02:31 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: yes, Atari, we can resonate with others -- thus, empathy and compassion...
    [02:31 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: I was thinking today about the gulf that exists between a yojng black guy living in poverty ia a ghetto and a politician who wetn to Eton and Oxford
    [02:31 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: I'm not sure there's anything that can improve understanding....I think it rises from having similar interpretations and reactions, more than having had similar experiences.
    [02:31 PM]  Chi Aho: We really don't want to get that close to too many people, perhaps only the person with whom we share very intimate experiences is there a chance of getting to know them.
    [02:31 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: Generally I think we learn not about a specific person, ourselves or others as such ... just learn.
    [02:32 PM]  Chi Aho: But we can get to know ourselves.
    [02:32 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Some people live together for years and never really know each other
    [02:32 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: I think understanding depends on the current state of openness and consciousness as much as something learned or conditioned
    [02:32 PM]  Evie [Evie Meskin]: yes knowing ourselves is a start
    [02:32 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: I agree Cal
    [02:32 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: excellent point, Aph!
    [02:32 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: isn't it good to 'not know' people...our knowing can be fixing and formulating them
    [02:33 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: I don't think I have that much time and energy to know so many people to be honest.
    [02:33 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: "understanding" is wonderful -- but it's still not shared experience. . .
    [02:33 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: depends Zen
    [02:33 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: True, Zen....better to see the stories we tell as nothing more
    [02:33 PM]  Evie [Evie Meskin]: yes it is good to not know, knowing does fix people
    [02:33 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: And that knowing others depends on knowing oneself in many different ways ... as if we know others by creating selves within that can have the experience others might have
    [02:33 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm. knowing can come with a flexibility
    [02:34 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: But I think Fc is suggesting that we can know in a spiritual sense - - that we are of the SAME spirit -- although I don't know what that would mean, actually.
    [02:34 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: That sounds ... strange Cal ...
    [02:34 PM]  Chi Aho: Yes, Cal - please explain
    [02:34 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: the better we konwo ourselves the easier it is to understand others?
    [02:35 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps knowing comes with a form of recognition - recognizing aspects of ourselves in others and thus feeling an empathy
    [02:35 PM]  Chi Aho: I don't think so, Zen.
    [02:35 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: Basically we imagine others have similar experiences to oneself .. so to know others need to create an internal self that can have the sorts of experiences they might have .. that's empathy partly, and the "internalized other"
    [02:35 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: I think so, Aph.
    [02:35 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: another excellent insight, Aph -- we recognize in outhers parts of ourselves...
    [02:36 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: But bear in mind those could be wrong ...
    [02:36 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: No :)
    [02:36 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: We can only infer in strict sense.
    [02:36 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: yes
    [02:36 PM]  Evie [Evie Meskin]: like is said to attract like
    [02:36 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray] ponders Cal's "create an inner self that can have the sorts of experiences" that others have.
    [02:36 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: @bruce, walk a mile in the other's mocassins
    [02:37 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray] feels that he's had to create a host of inner selves in order to survive.
    [02:37 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: the creatikn of a self separates us from others I think
    [02:37 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: Did a good job Bruce
    [02:37 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: "No" Cal?
    [02:37 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: I haven't come across how to walk in others' shoes yet, anyone has?
    [02:37 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: No with a smile ironic, sorry
    [02:37 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: :-]
    [02:38 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: Sure, one imagines how others may be experiencing ... luckily we have brain structures to do this
    [02:38 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: how well can we know someone in SL?
    [02:38 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Do we know each other through text than through image?
    [02:38 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: the more the better
    [02:38 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: compared to RL?
    [02:38 PM]  FcSeeker: I have needed even to ask the shield against such
    [02:38 PM]  Evie [Evie Meskin]: we see their fantasy self in SL which can be revealing in itself
    [02:38 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: As well as our time and openness allow
    [02:39 PM]  FcSeeker: (to walk in other's shoes)
    [02:39 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: Thieves, sociopaths, sadists --- all are experts at "knowing" how the other feels. . . experts at empathy, actually.
    [02:39 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: it's easier to hide things in SL
    [02:39 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain shudders
    [02:39 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: The creation of a self is the way we have contact with others
    [02:39 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: it is the definition almost of self
    [02:39 PM]  Chi Aho: Just as we have a self-concept, we also have just a concept (idea) of other people; we don't really know them unless we are extremely close to them and share a lot, a whole lot.
    [02:39 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: And easier not to, as well :)
    [02:40 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: opening up implies vulnerability
    [02:40 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: but isn't a self a survival thing?
    [02:40 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: I agree, Chi...but knowing happens gradually, in degrees, I think
    [02:40 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: yes
    [02:40 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: a kind of barrier?
    [02:41 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Zen I think so
    [02:41 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: @Chi -- I'd say we still do not really "know" them. . . because we cannot share the experiences they have.
    [02:41 PM]  Chi Aho: You are correct, atari
    [02:41 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: self protection
    [02:41 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Even if we only know someone a little bit, over time we get a fuller picture of who they are
    [02:41 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: but we never get a COMPLETE picture...
    [02:41 PM]  Chi Aho: Bruce, you are begging the question - of course we can't get to know them if you define that as having their experience.
    [02:41 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: Yes it takes time.
    [02:41 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: that would only come through shared experiences.
    [02:41 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: and some important pieces of the jogsaw puzzle may not appear at all
    [02:41 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: jigsaw
    [02:42 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: Well, then, we better understand what we mean by "knowing"...
    [02:42 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: agrees
    [02:42 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: wonder how much difference it made meeting someone in RL yo had only met in SL before? Bruce, Gaya?
    [02:42 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: Knowing ... an incomplete encounter
    [02:42 PM]  Chi Aho: Knowing is having an impression of another and being willing to change that with added experience.
    [02:42 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: a tremendous difference, actually.
    [02:42 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: I like that definition, Chi.
    [02:43 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: (meetin someone in both RL and SL).
    [02:43 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: I think it was case by case kind of thing Zen ...
    [02:43 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: and it changed your opinion or impression dramatically Bruce?
    [02:43 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: or Gaya
    [02:43 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: yes, it did, Zen.
    [02:43 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: yes good point Chi
    [02:43 PM]  Evie [Evie Meskin]: Actually Chi, that is not knowing that is an open learning experience
    [02:44 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: is knowing fixed then?
    [02:44 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: I doubt it
    [02:44 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: we can know more surely
    [02:44 PM]  FcSeeker: have met several people in RL after getting to know them in SL; dont see any difference come with them
    [02:44 PM]  Chi Aho: Well, this is all about how we look at knowing; your ideas are different, Evie
    [02:44 PM]  Evie [Evie Meskin]: yes isn't it ?
    [02:44 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Knowing is dynamic, I think, because life is.
    [02:44 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: I would say it changes constantly
    [02:45 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: If "knowing someone" means having been in a lot of situations together, a lot of similar experiences, and sharing a lot of information, then I would agree that it is possible to know someone.
    [02:45 PM]  Chi Aho: It is our ideas about the person that chaqnge.
    [02:45 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: and isn't that desireable?
    [02:45 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: If "knowing" means having shared experience itself -- nope!
    [02:45 PM]  Chi Aho: change
    [02:45 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: but that knowing implies a little 'fixing' of how they are?
    [02:45 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: there are so mny parts of each of us to know
    [02:46 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: I know you ...means I have a fixed impression?
    [02:46 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: Well Bruce I think all have vast amount of shared experience just by being humans in culture on planet ... a base of "already givens"
    [02:46 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: no need to go acquire
    [02:46 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Or a more careful watch, so their changes happen gradually and make more sense to us, perhaps
    [02:46 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: my mother knows one part of me, my friends another
    [02:46 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: good point, Aph!
    [02:46 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: different people in different situations?
    [02:46 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: Unless you include in "knowing" the necessary discriminations and thinking of distinctions
    [02:47 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: different role
    [02:47 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: yes. I ac differently ith different people
    [02:47 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: act
    [02:47 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: so we might only know someone's role?
    [02:47 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: Why are we concerned about knowing people? Is that necessary?
    [02:47 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: yes
    [02:47 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: Please say more Aphrodite :p
    [02:47 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: -@Cal -- I share the fact that I am an American with all other Americans, but that does not mean that I share my :experience" of being with those other Americans.
    [02:47 PM]  Chi Aho: Exactly, Zen. Much of social interaction is simply an act.
    [02:48 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Most of my life is playing roles (which I don't like) that others expect.
    [02:48 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: yes I think so, if we are to get along wth others, itsurely help to know them
    [02:48 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: Beind helpful, polite etc. doesn't require knowing someone at this level we've been discussing though ...
    [02:48 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: isn't it necesaary for empathy?
    [02:48 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: or comes from empathy?
    [02:49 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: it seems important to find common denominators in our experiences. . .
    [02:49 PM]  FcSeeker: even if we play roles, we still are what we are; the role does not change us, MAYBY only our act
    [02:49 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: I think empathy and knowing each other overlap a lot
    [02:49 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: What would be one's motivation to know someone like we've been discussing?
    [02:49 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: we can help people better if we know them better?
    [02:49 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: psychopaths are more anfgerous b/c we dont know them
    [02:49 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: "empathy" is a loaded and misunderstood word. That's why I said earlier that a good sadist has high empathy skills.
    [02:49 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: dangerous.sorry sticky keys + lag
    [02:49 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: How about learning, Gaya
    [02:49 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: we understand why they do what they do better
    [02:50 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: To have witnesses to our lives
    [02:50 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: How about not being lonely, in addition to learning
    [02:50 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: I think examining the motivation about this is important ...
    [02:50 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: How about being better at cooperating
    [02:50 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: And hidden assumptions that go with that ...
    [02:50 PM]  Chi Aho: We would really only want to know just a few people i think.
    [02:50 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: I think we just need to connect, as human beings.
    [02:50 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray] remembers that some of his best friends are sociopaths - - one is a serial rapist.
    [02:51 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: please saymore Bruce
    [02:51 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: of course yes...the better we know people the better we can manipulate them
    [02:51 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: Mike and I have shared the events of our lives in great detail with each other for over thirty years...
    [02:52 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: but I truly cannot say that we have shared our "experience."
    [02:52 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: But yes...the number of those deeper connections is probably small....too many can hurt as just as much as not enough.
    [02:52 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: and Mike is one of the most enlightened persons I know.
    [02:52 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: Manupulate includes caring for people, Zen?
    [02:52 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Zen!!
    [02:52 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: meh Zen, off to bed please :p
    [02:52 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: not saying I do that or it is good to do !
    [02:52 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: heheh
    [02:53 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: But I know someone who does that Zen...
    [02:53 PM]  Chi Aho: Isn't it the people that you know and love who hurt you the most?
    [02:53 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: Zen is absolutely right -- The better we know someone, the better we know which buttons to push to get what we want.
    [02:53 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: and agree with Cal ...we might need to manipuate old people or children?
    [02:53 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: (just a bit)
    [02:53 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: yes because you are open to them
    [02:53 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: It's true though ... people who are good at reading others can sometimes involutarily hurt them by reforumlating what people say or do.
    [02:53 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: The deeper we know someone, the more of us they have to hurt.
    [02:53 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: Lest one think that knowing and being known is a manipulation strategy game, I think more true to say it is a two way street that benefits each
    [02:54 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: get want we want -- whether good or bad -- Could be getting something good for that person who,m we are manipulating.
    [02:54 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Me too, Cal.
    [02:54 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: thanks cal
    [02:54 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: So it would be good in my opinion to let go of the negative connotation of "manipulate"
    [02:54 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: or else there will be a barrier to knowing
    [02:55 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado] wonders if he is being manipulated
    [02:55 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: what would e a beter word? "work ith?"
    [02:55 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: :)
    [02:55 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: Ask heisenberg
    [02:55 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: if you're being observed you're being manipulated
    [02:55 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: agrees with Cal about the term "manipulate" -- But sometimes we think we know better than someone else what's good for him -- and I wonder whether that is really so.
    [02:55 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: sometimes better just to be present than to "help" or to "save."
    [02:56 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: Just tell them to mind their own business :p
    [02:56 PM]  Evie [Evie Meskin]: well sometimes it is true
    [02:56 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: I think it depends on how much insight we have into the situation, Bruce...versus prejudice and bias.
    [02:56 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: yes, Gaya. because their own business is the only business that they can really mind.
    [02:56 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: Would you want a moral philosophy based on "observe but don't do anything active with the knowledge" ?
    [02:56 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: We don't need a saviour ... why some people take on this role so recklessly.
    [02:57 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: not always recklessly- with care as well
    [02:57 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: Perhaps someone is dying -- so we try to convince that person to fight for life. . . when it would be better, in many cases, just to be present with the dying process.
    [02:57 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: we need to see through our mistaken image of someone first I think
    [02:57 PM]  Chi Aho: Calvin, I would want a moral philosophy that helped me in my effort toward moral development. Each person must do his/her own work.
    [02:57 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: Well, a lot of times people are pretending not to know each other, and pretending not to notice they have a tacit agreement to pretend not to know
    [02:58 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel guffaws.
    [02:58 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: to act appropriately requires wisdom although there are situations where there is no option but to help
    [02:58 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: excellent point, Cal. I'd call that "indifference."
    [02:58 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: in romantic love we create a false image of a perfect other don't we?
    [02:58 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: And it's often a valid part of tact and respect of boundaries
    [02:58 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: But then sometimes it's just being polite anyway.
    [02:58 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: but also a kind of shield for shame
    [02:59 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: Well I'm off to bed now. Thanks everyone :)
    [02:59 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: nite Gaya
    [02:59 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: nite nite Gaya
    [02:59 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Goodnight, Gaya :)
    [02:59 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel: Let them have their shields I say!
    [02:59 PM]  Chi Aho: ty, Gaya
    [02:59 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: G'night, Gaya!
    [02:59 PM]  Evie [Evie Meskin]: yes love is blind and what a powerful thing that is
    [02:59 PM]  Gaya Ethaniel waves.
    [02:59 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: Suppose I know something that could help someone ... I might not tell them because if I do, they may hold me responsible for the result if they choose to act on that knowledge
    [02:59 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: blind and stupid
    [03:00 PM]  Evie [Evie Meskin]: why stupid Aphrodite ?
    [03:00 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: maybe that blindness is necessary
    [03:00 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: would you hesitate to help then Cal, to be the good samaritan?
    [03:00 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: It's OK if they hold you responsible -- YOU know the difference between your giving advice and their choosing to take it.
    [03:00 PM]  Chi Aho: One cannot truly love another person until he/she has self knowledge and understands that loving is giving and has nothing to do with the cultural concept of romantic love.
    [03:01 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: As gaya pointed out, the shields are important
    [03:01 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: You know who is responsible -- and you're responsible only for having given that advice.
    [03:01 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: right Bruce, but we have to be careful to realize how much power we may hold over someone
    [03:01 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Love is sharing, I would say.
    [03:01 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: Yes Bruce, but if the other doesn't see it that way ...
    [03:01 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: you have a situation
    [03:01 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: yeh but so many of us fall for romantic love
    [03:02 PM]  Evie [Evie Meskin]: lovely ambiguity in your text, Chi
    [03:02 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Advice can be tremendously helpful, too, but more active attempts to help can cause considerable harm if you don't properly understand the situation.
    [03:02 PM]  Chi Aho: Just ask for clarification, Evie
    [03:02 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: yes, Aph, I need to rememebr that - - because I actually FEEL that I hopd power over NO one.
    [03:02 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: right, it can confuse or make things worse
    [03:02 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: *hold power.
    [03:03 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: you may have more power than you think Bruce. When people respect you, they will take what you say seriously
    [03:03 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: If the other person does not see it as I see it -- that's one more demonstration that we do not share experience. . .
    [03:03 PM]  FcSeeker: I agree with you Aph with that :)
    [03:03 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: yes
    [03:03 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: so there's obvious going to be frustration trying to help someone whose view of things is different from our own.
    [03:03 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: but that is not our responsibility.
    [03:04 PM]  Chi Aho: Bruce, you are so right about that
    [03:04 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: It's better to offer sympathy and presence, in a situation like that, I think.
    [03:04 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: ;-)
    [03:04 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: sometimes we have to stay back
    [03:04 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: no, we do our best and do it as thoughtfully and as carefully as we can I guess
    [03:04 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Don't forge your projections onto them, but give them space to express themselves.
    [03:04 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Or force
    [03:05 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: force?
    [03:05 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: Not to bee overly personal now, but at this moment a dear friend of mine - a 96 year old man - is dying in an intensive care unity in Dayton - 70 miles away.
    [03:05 PM]  Chi Aho: Violet everyone doesn't have the generousity that would take, they want to forge their views on you.
    [03:05 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: sad :(
    [03:05 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: A friend is urging me to GO BE WITH HIM.
    [03:05 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: but is he unconscious.
    [03:05 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: Do you feel a call to do so?
    [03:05 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: I am BEING with him right now!
    [03:05 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Ah--I'm sorry to hear it, Bruce.
    [03:05 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: What do you want to do Bruce?
    [03:05 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: and in the best way I possibly could "serve" him.
    [03:06 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: I want to bless and release him to continue on his journey.
    [03:06 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: and he wants to continue -- through dying.
    [03:06 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: yes
    [03:06 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Can you do that from where you are Bruce?
    [03:06 PM]  Evie [Evie Meskin]: can you do that remotely Bruce ?
    [03:06 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: snap!
    [03:06 PM]  Evie [Evie Meskin] smiles
    [03:06 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: I do not want to "save" him by getting him to regain consciousness and live longer.
    [03:07 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: there is no separation in such things.
    [03:07 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: remote = near
    [03:07 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: no, he needs you to support him in his journey
    [03:07 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: He has my total support.
    [03:07 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: nicely put Aph
    [03:07 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain thinks about the value of Tonglen
    [03:07 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: yes
    [03:07 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: yes, Tonglen is "right-ON" with this!
    [03:07 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: Thanks, Aph!
    [03:08 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: :-) yw.
    [03:08 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: ;-)
    [03:08 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: so what shall we do next week?
    [03:08 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: I must be going now.
    [03:08 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Be well, Bruce :)
    [03:08 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: This has been a wonderful experience for me. I hope you all have enjoy it as much as I have.
    [03:08 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: wow . the time went by quickly!
    [03:08 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: bye Bruce :)
    [03:08 PM]  FcSeeker: be well Bruce
    [03:08 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: I feel I know you better :)
    [03:08 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Tonglen seems like an interesting tangent....maybe, suffering and how we deal with it?
    [03:09 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    [03:09 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Bruce. Hello to Bear
    [03:09 PM]  Bruce [Bruce Mowbray]: Thank you, everyone!
    [03:09 PM]  Evie [Evie Meskin]: I too must log and sleep as I keep Eiropean hours.
    [03:09 PM]  Evie [Evie Meskin]: bye everyone
    [03:09 PM]  Chi Aho: bye, Evie
    [03:09 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: sounds good Violet
    [03:09 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    [03:09 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Evie
    [03:09 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Goodnight, Evie, thanks for being here :)
    [03:09 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: Bye, all
    [03:09 PM]  FcSeeker: waves
    [03:09 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: bye Evie
    [03:09 PM]  Calvino Rabeni: Go forth and know one another :)
    [03:09 PM]  Chi Aho: i too must go; bye all
    [03:09 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: I have to go to the dentist now - a lovely root canal. Would anyone care to walk in my moccasins?
    [03:09 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Take care, everyone :)
    [03:10 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: you can tell us about your suffering Aph:)
    [03:10 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus] dreamed about nightmare dental work last night, if that counts :p
    [03:10 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: mmmm. doesn't help but thanks!
    [03:10 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: :)
    [03:10 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: (hope you don't have to much though)
    [03:11 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Me too.
    [03:11 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: :-) thanks Zen
    [03:11 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Okay, I'm off as well
    [03:11 PM]  Violet [Ataraxia Azemus]: Be well, everyone :)
    [03:11 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Ataraxia
    [03:11 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    [03:11 PM]  Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! all
    [03:11 PM]  Zen [Zen Arado]: bye Violet

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