Ways of Knowing -- December 1, 20112010 -- Planning WoK's Future

  "Sangha as a way of knowing" -- Part OneCalvino Rabeni: welcome hello Bruce and Wol

Wol Euler 

Aph: Hey Bruce:hello calvino

Bruce: Hey, Aph!Hello, Cal and Wol.

Aph: Just going to make myself a sandwich brbBruce: (dusted off and riding once again Wol)

Bruce: Before anyone Wol Euler: Wol Euler smiles. else gets here - - Would you like to say something (7S) Uncommon Fish: Papa Flame Angel Blue: Swimming speed set to Stop. about the "recommendations" Wol Euler: hello pila -- at the beginning?Pila Mulligan: greetings

Bruce: ok. take your time.boxy: hi!

Aph: Um boxy: pila-san :) sure. thanks. In about 5 minutes?Calvino Rabeni: Hi Pila

Bruce: Hey, Mick.Welcome, Pila!

Bruce: Good to see you again.boxy: the master of i and ching :)

Bruce: kk.Pila Mulligan: I hope all is well with each of us

Mickorod Renard: Hi Bruceboxy: yes, me too

Mickorod Renard: how are you?Bruce: Hey, rectangular friend!

Bruce: Actually, I'm not boxy: sadly though, i'm here just to greet you feeling well. . . boxy: have to go now but all boxy: sorry folks things considered, I'm fine.boxy: enjoy the wok!

Mickorod Renard: hi AphCalvino Rabeni: Adieu Boxy

Bruce: How Aggers: Hi WoKers :) are you today, Micki?Pila Mulligan: hi Ags

Bruce: Hey, Pilaaggers!

Mickorod Renard: I am ok thanks, not perfectWol Euler: well, you know the old Chinese

Mickorod Renard: Hi Pilasaying: "a wok is only as good as what goes in it"

Pila Mulligan: greetingsAggers: Hiya brucie

Mickorod Renard: hi SanWol Euler: hello aggers

Bruce: Hey, San!Aggers: Aggers pokes Wol ♥

Aph: Back. Hi all!Pila Mulligan: :)

Bruce: wb., AphIt's not the destination; it's the wok.

Aph: san has made such a beautiful art work!Wol Euler: Wol Euler eyes your outfit and considers wearing it too, but

Bruce: Let me guess -- salami on rye?would have to go human for that

Bruce: (ooo0-ps... not Calvino Rabeni: Wok this Way San's artwork. . . (!)Bruce: (a pedestrian pun)

San: :) with dijonAggers: Fiddler on the hoof

Bruce: kkBruce looks around for Aph.

Aph: um no, Aggers: Maybe she's under the couch feta and avocado and tomatoe and lettuceWol Euler: eating cookie crumbs, no doubt

Bruce: Are you referring to the Dome exhibits?just sent her a tp.

Aph: yesAggers: eekeek

Aph: (nothing to do with my lunchPila Mulligan: Evidence has been found that William

Bruce: Mine has not been built yet.Tell and his family were avid

 Aph: I saw it built. Did you change it?bowlers. Unfortunately, all the Swiss league records were destroyed in a

 Aph: Did everyone here get my email summarizing the fire, ...and so we'll never know for whom the Tells bowled. proposals from Wol Euler: ha last meetingAggers: Middlesex?

Calvino Rabeni: Yes, thanks BrucePila Mulligan: A man rushed into a

Bruce: After our last two session, in busy doctor's office and shouted, "Doctor! I think  which we discussed the future of WoK, Aph I'm shrinking!" The doctor calmly responded, "Now, settle down.  put together our recommendations in a . . .You'll just have to be a little patient."

Bruce: yes, Aph. . . I was just about to mention that. . Ask not for whom the Tells bowled - - They bowled for thee.

Mickorod Aggers: :D Renard: yes thanks, and Bruce's mailAggers: The invisible man's outside

Pila Mulligan: hi atariAggers: tell him I can't see him right now

Bruce: please go ahead, if you will.http://waysofknowing.kira.org//

Violet: Hi everyone :)Pila Mulligan: hi Aph

Mickorod Renard: Hi AtarWol Euler: hello aph

Bruce: Hey, VioletAph!

Aph: so, Calvino Rabeni: Good day Aph any concerns, Aggers: G'day Aph changes,Bruce: http://hermitdog.com/questions_to_answer_re_WoK.htmamaaaaaendments?

Mickorod Renard: all looks well to meCalvino Rabeni: (sees Aph wok-ing in place)

Aph: If not I'll leave the floor Aphrodite Macbain: Hi. Sorry I lost track of time to Bruce and CalAggers: Don't we all

Aph: Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks for all coming If it's OK we'll put it in the wikiAphrodite Macbain: I have a pile of questions to

Aph: and report the changes to KIRAask re the future of WoK

Bruce: Oh, hey, Cal. . . didn't see you arriveAph, I just gave a link to the updated questions.

Calvino Rabeni: :) I just materialized. .

AphBruce: http://hermitdog.com/questions_to_answer_re_WoK.htmum...

Mickorod Renard: hi CalAphrodite Macbain: is everyone in agreement to answering them during this meeting?

Pila Mulligan: hi CalAphrodite Macbain: Thanks Bruce

Calvino Rabeni: Hellosure yes

Aph: ok I will silently submerge into the backgroundBruce: yeppers, trying to answer them, for sure.

San: hi everyone! phone distracted ~Aphrodite Macbain: I was going to go through question by question

Mickorod Renard: :))Bruce: cool by moi.

Bruce: Aggers: moi aussi I felt that you summarized our concerns very well, Aph... and I really have nothing to suggest or add.Aphrodite Macbain: Cal and Bruce have answered all of them but I'm sure have many new suggestions to make

Violet: Hi San :)Aphrodite Macbain: Nice horns Bruce

Pila Mulligan: hi SanCoffee Mug: whispers: Ahh! Fresh Hot Coffee

San: :)Bruce: ty!

Bruce: Today I sent everyone on the mailing list an excerpt from last Sunday's evening session -- with Cal as GoCAphrodite Macbain: we need to IDENTIFY THE INITIAL OBJECTIVES OF WOK and then decide whether we could still organize sessions that support these objectives.

  Mickorod Renard: yes, thanks BruceContemplative Practice in Modern Life is what I believe WoK was meant to explore and was motivated by Stim.

Pila Mulligan: nice discussionAphrodite Macbain: Here are some of your responses to this objective:

BruceAphrodite Macbain: Although I was not at that session, I felt that it was an excellent "launching pad" for our discussion of "Sangha as a way of knowing."Calvino Rabeni: One attraction though, to me, about the original formulation for WoK is that it asked the question about whether the ways of knowing of contemplative traditions could be brought into everyday

Bruce: Aph began by saying life and its value systems,that from a sangha she expects support and some form of teaching-learning.and if so how? So it offered a kind of balancing influence to

Bruce: --- stressing current cognitive /sangha as "community"economic values”

 Bruce: community "Contemplative traditions"of support(in.

Bruce wonders if he's going to be the only one talking.my thinking) includes mystics of every religious label - I

Pila Mulligan: :)wish we

Calvino Rabeni: hehecould find

Mickorod Renard: I like that idea, and I am sure Wok has in most been thatfolks who understood different contemplative strains as well as Stim understands those of Buddhism.

Aph: community Aphrodite Macbain: are we happy to leave the term Contemplativesupport f- but for what?Practice in Modern Life

Violet: :)Bruce: I'm happy with that.

Calvino Rabeni: That's a good question AphroAphrodite Macbain: or do we want to replace it with some other objective for discussion?

Aph: Aphrodite Macbain: Aggrssupport spiritually? intellectually? emotionally?Wol? Pila?

Mickorod Renard: in nature though, the explorations we make are in some respects in subject matter that is not everyday stuffPila Mulligan: let's be careful about trying to emulate what Stim did, there is a line in the Tao Te Ching

Pila Mulligan: is there an introductory presentation for this session? It looks like we are into the topic alreadythat says "If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand"

Aph: Wol Euler: WolTraditionally it Euler smiles. has Aggers: Mm? been spiritual supportCalvino Rabeni: :)

Bruce: I'm "hearing" from you Aph, that WoK is not exclusively bound by that . . . you expect sangha to Aphrodite Macbain: what are you suggesting- we dont addrssinclude some contemplative practice? "purposeAphrodite" Macbain:or "intentionality"Pila?

Calvino Rabeni: I was thinking along those linesAphrodite Macbain: or do we want to talk about mor than that?

Aph: yes. No Aphrodite Macbain: sorry about typos Pila there is no introduction but Bruce sent out a summary of a discussion a the Pavilion on the sangha that Mulligan: just what I said -- we do not have Stim here, and should not try to act as if we do raised a few ideasAphrodite Macbain: Hi Mick

Bruce: Aggers: Yo Mick Good question, Pila. I was Mickorod Renard: Hi sorry i am late hoping that Bruce: Hey, Mick! the chat-log from Pila Mulligan: hi Mick Cal's session would be that intro. . . but am up Aphrodite Macbain: Yes but where do we go from here then Pila? for more. . .Mickorod Renard: hi folks

Pila Mulligan: okon our own

Bruce: Traditionally, of courseI will give, "sangha" is one of the three jewels in Buddhism. . Mick the link. . . carry on.

Bruce: and Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Bruce. specifically meant the monks and nunsCalvino Rabeni: think for ourselves? who had taken vows.

Bruce: But that leaves me out.Mickorod Renard: ta

Bruce: ;-)Pila Mulligan: :)

Calvino Rabeni: radical :) I think, starting at square one, that the word has a kind Aphrodite Macbain: Pila, are you suggesting we come up with a new purpose? of exotic tone to us, indicating the possibility Mickorod Renard: I have read the mails re wok of something that may exist in another culture, Pila Mulligan: I'm not suggesting anything at all, actually but that we're drawn towards Aphrodite Macbain: Is everyone agreed that we establish a new purpose? and at the same time not sure ofMickorod Renard: depends what the new purpose is

Aph: nodsAphrodite Macbain: and if so.... what?

Calvino Rabeni: And Aphrodite Macbain: It isit seems to strike up against up to us to develop one Mick the pride and isolation of individualismAphrodite Macbain: If I'm hearing correctly

Aph: strike up?Aphrodite Macbain: Pila -

Violet: Mm, Cal...any suggestions?

Calvino Rabeni: so Pila Mulligan: not really,the "support for what" idea rubs up a feeling of not being supportedI'm saying what WoK was meant to explore as motivated by Stim is history

Mickorod Renard: some of the subject was it we got bored with the old one? matter we tend to cover borders on the extraordinary, because of this I Aphrodite Macbain: Cal suggested this: whether the ways of knowing of contemplative traditions could be brought into everyday life and its value systems, and if so how? believe a Sangha type thought would inspire trustMickorod Renard: or did we not know what amongst it was? ourselves Aphrodite Macbain:that our thoughts are cultivated in a Could we use that as a purpose? respectful way, finding guidance amongst ourselvesAggers: It's a shame Stim isn't here anymore

Pila Mulligan: true : :)Bruce: broadening our horizons, Mick.

Calvino Rabeni: or Aphrodite Macbain: He's not, so let's come up with something against not having a predefined idea of what to Pila Mulligan: we can come up with whatever we think we'd like to do be supported for,Aphrodite Macbain: so.... what purposedo you think?

San: support Mickorod Renard: I often think that we are still thefor developing as a human beingsame as we were 2000 years ago

Aph: When one follows a Aphrodite Macbain: what we are trying to establish is a purpose for WoK path that Aggers: Has it been going THAT long? is challenging, Mickorod Renard: :) one has the choice of going it alone or getting help from sympathetic communityBruce: For moi, "Ways of Knowing" pretty well sums it up - - we are exploring all the ways

Calvino Rabeni: yes that's a good one Santoof knowing that interest us -- contemplative, scientific, and whatever else

San: sangha can becatches out interest.

San: also in the realm of anything that is unseenAphrodite Macbain: I think Wok has been going a shorter time

San: for exampleAphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain nods

Bruce: our* Does that "supporting community" need to be visible, tangible, physical?Calvino Rabeni: I'm not suggesting studying contemplative traditions to import them into modern culture,

Aph: but I feel sangha has a more specific meaning; it implies that the others within the sangha have something to offer more butthe bigger project of studying ways of knowing that we engage in and looking at whether traditional knowledge can shedthan sympathy. Experience, knowledge, expertiselight on that process

Aph: I look for those 4 thngsBruce: yes, agrees with CVal and his typist on that.

Aph: that form of supportCalvino Rabeni: So yes I think I agree with

Mickorod Renard: you mean like blood brothers or the like?Bruce, that Ways of Knowing sums it up sufficiently

San: Bruce: Cal* it's not necessarily other peopleAphrodite Macbain: what do the rest, is my pointof yooou think?

San: can beAphrodite Macbain: (including Val)

San: Aggers: Val? buddha realmAphrodite Macbain: CalVal

Aphrodite Macbain: read above San: plantsAggers: Ah

Calvino Rabeni: It reminds me ofAphrodite Macbain: our purpose is to explore ways of knowing... Aphrodite Macbain: purpose the wizard of oz story .. Bruce: my tyist is to blame for CVal (sry) the three characters were thinking they needed someone to give them a heart / brain / courage, but they had it all along, just needed someone to tell them it was thereMickorod Renard: I can see the logic in trying to see how what may appear out of date practice or understanding could in fact be realized as appropriate in the modern life if tweaked

San: birdsCalvino Rabeni: yes

Aph: blood brothers?Bruce: indeed, Mick.

Calvino Rabeni: Agree, SantoAphrodite Macbain: If I hear agreed - and we tweaking by saying our purpose is ways of knowing

Aph: I like that.Aphrodite Macbain: tweak it

San: holy placesBruce: Yayyyy!

Violet: I do, too.Aphrodite Macbain: ok wol? Aggers?

Calvino Rabeni: a questioncould there be a sangha-of-one? A person who decides the trees and wind are a teacher, and has the is whether a "way of knowing" is considered to be at a practice level or at a broader "paradigm" level, or including multiple levels intention to learnAphrodite Macbain: Pila?

Bruce: Pila Mulligan: afk -- phone So, Wol Euler: sure a sangha brings Aggers: I don't see why approval is needed out the true essence of who we are - - - or tries to?Bruce: Bruce thinks Aph would make a good Quaker . . . trying to reach consensus.

Aph: the original concept of sangha included beings other than humans?Aphrodite Macbain: I would suggest we make it as broad as possible Cal

San: why notMickorod Renard: perhaps unravel what may seem veiled to our modern mind by understanding the deeper values

San: it canAphrodite Macbain: nicely put Mick

Aph: depends on what we are needing BruceBruce: yes, as broad as possible - - - (Great minds think alike....)

Bruce: Hmmmmindeed, well put. Let's move on.

Aph: I am not sure if I have a true essenceCalvino Rabeni: I'd go for that, Aph, though it's worth defining each "wok" as closely as possible within the broad perspective of the group's charter ... (?)

Violet: Hi Druth :)Aphrodite Macbain: Ok then unless I hear any objections to this revised purpose- ways of knowing in the broadest sense- we

San: hello druth :)will move on.

Pila Mulligan: hi DruthAphrodite Macbain: each wok?

Aph: Aph waves at druthCalvino Rabeni: way of knowing as a topic

druth Vlodovic: hi guysMickorod Renard: but I am

Bruce: One of the metaphors used last Sunday evening was a little scared that we may loose the thread ifthe "container" -- that we abandone traditional roots Sangha provides a container for sharing, for honesty, for Aphrodite Macbain: cal? what do you mean by each wok? growth, for protectionBruce: each exploration. . .

Bruce: Hey, druth!Calvino Rabeni: yes

Pila Mulligan: maybe quintessence, AphAphrodite Macbain: each theme we address?

Aph: Pila?Calvino Rabeni: yes

Mickorod Renard: Aphrodite Macbain: Ok perhaps we can try to define what Calvino Rabeni: focusing on the "knowing" aspects of the theme, etc. would be the order of our development, so as a Sangha, or community , we are pulling in the same direction?Aphrodite Macbain: I don't think we will be losing the original purpose Mick if we make this as broad as possible.

Calvino Rabeni: Bruce: BrucePerhaps imagination starts to create the sangha, which then materializeshopes that Mick will help us find "original roots" or becomes more socially realizedin each exploration.

San: yes, imagination is keyAphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain smiles at Bruce

Mickorod Renard: Hi DruthCalvino Rabeni: same :)

Aph: If we imagine the sangha Mickorod Renard: well, I don't know them well it will come?Bruce: ;-)

Calvino Rabeni: but I like the Aphrodite Macbain: It's all available on the wiki Mick Mickorod Renard: :) suggestion to venture to look at Bruce: here/now roots are [perhaps] also original roots. the specifics, MickAphrodite Macbain: OK

Aph: nodsAphrodite Macbain: moving on...

Bruce: I'm not sure that I would trust any sangha that Aphrodite Macbain: # 2 .We need to decide what the procedures would be to shape the FORM AND CONTENT of WOK was NOT imagined.Pila Mulligan: back

San: :)Aphrodite Macbain: 3. Shall we continue meeting weekly? Bi-weekly? Monthly?

Mickorod Renard: I was here at the beginning, and I must saythinking that if we have too many directions on the go at one time we will create fragmentation, thatnow I am a few years older,,revisiting the original would be seen from a new perspective now the opposite of communityPila Mulligan: hi 0

Aph: but Aphrodite Macbain: Hey Sam it seems Bruce: YO, 0! sangha is different for each of usMickorod Renard: I will go wit the; flow we need different thingsAggers: Hello 0

Calvino Rabeni: People to each other, even with an understanding Samúð (oo0oo): Hi everyone :)... will just duck in and quietly listen of working together, are sometimes wise and sometimes idiotsAphrodite Macbain: Bruce could you send sam the summary?

Violet: :)Aggers: Whatever the flow is...

Bruce: Imagination seems to Aphrodite Macbain: 3. Shall we continue meeting weekly? Bi-weekly? Monthly? precede the sangha experience for meBruce: I am definitely for every other week. Aphrodite Macbain: Cal? . Aggers: Val? . and Aphrodite Macbain: :-) commitment to the tangible, visible, group is difficult.Calvino Rabeni: every other week suits me also

Aph: so... that means a sangha can change...?Mickorod Renard: every other week sounds good, although I will miss the extra opportunity to make it

Calvino Rabeni: the fallback position is "the wise man learns more from the fool, than the fool from the wise man"Aphrodite Macbain: If we really research the theme and want to go into some depth, it would be useful

Bruce: I imagine that the sangha will accept my idiocyBruce feels this agreement among great mind is going to his head.

Calvino Rabeni: Yes, day to day, it changesAphrodite Macbain: also it is a lot of work to do for one session

Violet: I Aphrodite Macbain: ok with everyone? like that, Cal.Pila Mulligan: sure

Calvino Rabeni: :) BruceMickorod Renard: yes

Aph: :-) BruceWol Euler: Wol Euler nods.

Bruce: sowithout that hope, I would never commit,every other week.

Mickorod Renard: :)Calvino Rabeni: the idea is to allow more attention for homework, not to make it all easier, is that basically true?

Calvino Rabeni: and ones true Aphrodite Macbain: this means every second week, not 2 weeks a month friends learn from Aphrodite Macbain: right cal one's idiocy and make something of it to give backBruce: However, NEXT time that would be Thanksgiving. . .

San: lovelyBruce: ???

Aph: a useful sangha is not judgemental but helpfulMickorod Renard: is there any chance that we could avoid complicated modern words

San: hmm, Aphrodite Macbain: American thanksgiving what's your Pila Mulligan: :) definition of "helpful"Mickorod Renard: :)

Aph: helps us understand Aggers: Aggers doesn't know any ourselves better for oneAphrodite Macbain: like Thanksgiving?

Bruce: Hmmmm. . yeah, turkey day. to be sure, Aph.Aphrodite Macbain: lol

Calvino Rabeni: yeshow about complicated traditional words ?

San: :)Aggers: Gobble gobble

Bruce: ;-) but the idea of safety is somehow also very important to me.Aphrodite Macbain: soooo - 4. Shall we set a topic that can be discussed over a one week/two week/monthly period?

Calvino Rabeni: and to deal with those troublesome blind spotsMickorod Renard: they are ok,,well any are providing they are explained

Bruce: Aphrodite Macbain: eachsafety of the containertime.

Calvino Rabeni: that's importantdo you mean "low jargon" mick?

Mickorod Renard: I am a simple man do we still post on a public wiki?Calvino Rabeni: plain talk is an interesting discipline

Bruce: I think that the monks and nuns also knew this need to be safe.Aphrodite Macbain: we will try and be as clear as possible, stating our case in a variety of ways...

San: knowAggers: If a difficult one at times

Aph: perhaps thatCalvino Rabeni: perhaps plain talk is the a way of knowing simplest definition of a sangha- a safe container to grow and learnBruce: Bruce feels that "gobble gobble" is pretty low, as jargon goes.

Aph: safeAphrodite Macbain: 4. Shall we set a topic that can be discussed over a one week/two

Calvino Rabeni: nodsweek/monthly period?

Aph: withinAggers: Not for a turkey

druth VlodovicAphrodite Macbain: a "place" to grow out into yourselfSo each time we set a topic it will be explored over at least 2 weeks?

Mickorod Renard: I think I agreeSamúð (oo0oo): *plain talk*

Aph: yes druth!Aphrodite Macbain: least

Bruce: I honestly don't know whether our wiki is public or not - - Does one have to Well, since we just decided to meet every other week, a two-week topic sounds good - for starters. be "enrolled" to see it? I know that I have to log in to post anything there.Mickorod Renard: that sounds good,,it will give me time to look all the words up i the dictionary

Calvino Rabeni: anyone can read it, I'd favor two sessions per topic Bruce: :)

Bruce: and that's part of the safety, perhaps.Aphrodite Macbain: OK some may be more complex topics that need exploring over a 4 week period..

Aph: anyone Calvino Rabeni: since it usually feels they scratch the surface, then I get more ideas from the meeting can see it; have to log in to postCalvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni thinks all topics are complex

Bruce: kk. thanks, Aph.Aphrodite Macbain: OK -sounds good to me

Bruce: 2 sessions per topic is good -Sangha seems to suggest an expectation -- or a whole bunch of expectations- and let's stay flexible -- If the interest is there, we could even go for more weeks. Calvino Rabeni: nods

Aph: does that make us more vulnerable?Aphrodite Macbain: If we decide to explore an offshoot of the topic we can

Aph: being read on Bruce: I will keep everyone up to date on it. our wiki?Aphrodite Macbain: OK

Bruce: I don't know, Aphas we go along.

Bruce: I don't feel especially vulnerable -- but perhaps that's because I protect myself pretty well.Aphrodite Macbain: 5. Who will set these topics? Can we look 6 months ahead or at least 3 months so we know who is responsible?

Mickorod Renard: also, I was thinking that it makes a sort of nonsense in having a Sangha for safety and containment when the wiki is publicam happy if I am pulled up for going off track, please be honest with me

Bruce: I have an expectation of interconnection.Aphrodite Macbain: In other words, I recommend we try and plan ahead

San: i would tend to agree with you MickorodAphrodite Macbain: more than 1 week

Calvino Rabeni: Nods to Mick, this is an open containerAphrodite Macbain: we will Mick in the nicest possible way

Aph: I don't think the world reading the wiki Calvino Rabeni: I think that's commendable Mick, I'd echo it is our sangha but I do feel the Samúð (oo0oo): Mick... you are a nice person.. honestly people who Mickorod Renard: :) come here and talk areAggers: Aggers smiles @ Mick

druth Vlodovic: [14:35] Aphrodite Macbain: sooo- planning ahead Bruce: I don't feel especially vulnerable -- but perhaps that's because I protect myself pretty wellthink one month ahead would be good - and adequate. . .

druth Vlodovic: :)Mickorod Renard: is there a

druth Vlodovic: but when PaB pre written order of priority? tried having Calvino Rabeni: no "private" (unrecorded) sessions they didn't last longCalvino Rabeni: it is an emergent order

Aph: how do you protect yourself BruceMickorod Renard: like a ascending stairs?

Bruce: Well, I try to watch what I say carefully -- sometimes so as not to sound like an idiot.Aphrodite Macbain: If we knew who was setting up and moderating the discussion in advance we could plan better

Calvino Rabeni: But there is but we might have a process for selection? the "hidden" part Aphrodite Macbain: no Mick of it, which is the conversations Bruce: well, if we planned four weeks in advance. . . that happen one-on-one, that are given some Mickorod Renard: nothing laid out in ancient tradition? of their abilities by this WOK activity of the membersAphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain tries to get to the first step

Aph: IMs you mean Cal?Bruce: one month in advance. . .

Bruce: Aphrodite Macbain: it was ever changing Mick And yet, I realize that my idiocy might be the very thing that needs seeing/hearing.Aphrodite Macbain: I can show you what was done the first year if you like

Calvino Rabeni: Sure, or Mickorod Renard: its ok,,I can remember some emails, or any other communicationsAphrodite Macbain: Here you go:

Pila Mulligan: Mickorod Renard: ok [14:25] Bruce: So, a sangha brings out the true essence of who we are - - - or tries Aphrodite Macbain: History: Weekly Homework was set by Stim and others on a variety of topics agreed upon during the sessions of the previous weeks. For example these questions set the subject of the discussions for the first part of 2009. They were explored each week between Feb. 12 and March 5.  to?“Overview

 [14:26] Aph: I am not sure if I have a true essenceWhat is spiritually-relevant “contemplation” in the modern world? This question invites consideration of other (overlapping) questions:

 quintessence: 'the most perfect embodiment of something'Practice—How has the practice of contemplation changed from its traditional and ancient forms? {This point will be considered first, on February 12. For a more detailed summary, see “Week One” --below.}

 satsang: 'sat = true + sanga ... an assembly of persons who listen to, talk about, and assimilate the truth' -- Theory—What are the main “view” issues that have characterized contemplation from the beginning, and what new perspectives and concerns figure prominently now? (February 19)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satsang

 -> Challenges—What werein this discussion, sangha may mean a group talking about the quintessence of their awareness or experiencethe challenges faced by early contemplatives, and what new challenges have arisen recently? (February 26)

 Mickorod Renard: Bruce, you always sound a non-idiot to meScience—How has the emergence of science, with its unique perspective

Calvino Rabeni: other groups, and so forththat looks like a planned sequence

Bruce: heh heh, tyThat looks like one-month planning ahead, Aph.

Aph: Thanks PilaAphrodite Macbain: perspectives and concerns

Aph: Hi Zenfigure prominently

Pila Mulligan: hi Zennow? (February 19)

 Zen: Hi allChallenges—What were the

Violet: Hi Zen :)challenges faced by

Calvino Rabeni: So any old club or class or meeting isn't satsang/sanghaearly contemplatives, and what new challenges have arisen recently? (February 26)

 Bruce: Cal spoke of a barber shop as one place that transmissions of value/truth can occur -- without the visible structures of traditional religion, etc.Science—How has the emergence of science, with its unique perspectives on methodology and on both the nature of reality and human nature changed the situation? What specific challenges and opportunities does it present to the view and practice of contemplation? (March 5)”

Mickorod Renard: The Aphrodite Macbain: So he set it up over two months point is, I, like Aphrodite Macbain: um one month Bruce, : oh -- two, sry. feel restrained Bruce: or one. (maybe for the good) Aggers: Maybe it was three by the thought that I may say something sillyBruce: I suggest that we start with one - - and be flexible.

Aph: I wonder what I embody most perfectlyBruce: Someone might want to reserve a topic for future sessions. . .

BruceAphrodite Macbain: It is inevitable that I lol I can't count. one month say silly things.Aphrodite Macbain: Ok

Bruce: It is part of who I amin that case, advanced planning of more than one month would be fine.

Calvino Rabeni: :)Aphrodite Macbain: Especially if we have a lot of ideas

Aph: we Aphrodite Macbain: Which we do... Bruce: yeppers. all do BruceAphrodite Macbain: Comments?

Calvino Rabeni: you speak for myself BruceAphrodite Macbain: Who will set the topics?

Bruce: Calvino Rabeni: Wouldso, I seem to need containers that understand that and accept it.it work to have a running list on the wiki, where people can suggest a topic and indicate their interests in other suggestions?

Aph: and define silly for me...Aphrodite Macbain: We can come up with topics today and see who is willing to address them

Violet: :)Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- that would be good too Cal

Bruce: Calvino Rabeni: Then someoneI could not be a part of a sangha couldplan ahead a bit with the highlighted topics that did Aphrodite Macbain: Yes not accept me for who I am.Aphrodite Macbain: Ok moving ahead...

Aph: yes, but not passively Bruce,Bruce: Did you want to decide next session's topic now -- or wait for a list?

Mickorod Renard: but I wonder whether we may discover more if we do you think there is one fundamental topic that should be addressed as a primer? feel free to divulge between ourselvesAphrodite Macbain: wait for a sec

Aph: Aphrodite Macbain: Don't know- any suggestions? I feel we need to be able to but up against edgesAphrodite Macbain: Can we revisit old themes?6. Can we revisit some of the old themes?

Mickorod Renard: deeper thoughts knowing that it's containedAphrodite Macbain: oops lag

Bruce: I have had such experiences of rejection many timesThere are excellent suggestions on the email. . . . so my "imagination" needs to feel acceptance before I even Mickorod Renard: its interesting that Stim used contemplation as the focus attend such a group.Samúð (oo0oo): !

Zen: the trouble is that sanghas changeMickorod Renard: perhaps that is the platform

Aph: sharpening my understanding...Mickorod Renard: what is contemplation?

Zen: you might start in one and find Aphrodite Macbain: would you like to suggest a theme around contemplation it totally different after a whileAphrodite Macbain: or the subject itself?

Bruce: dynamic sangha, ZenMickorod Renard: maybe its too simple, especially as we are all reasonably experienced?

Aph: is that a trouble or an advantage ZenAphrodite Macbain: would you like to offer that one and do the research on it Mick?

Calvino Rabeni: Yes we butt against edges, and get an uncomfortable feeling, and the dilemma is one of discrimination at that pointMickorod Renard: I could do, although I would like to keep it simple if it was me,,cos I am not that academic

Zen:Aphrodite Macbain: Can one person come up with the research and introduce the theme and another facilitate the discussion? a growing organic dynamic thingAphrodite Macbain: Simple is good Mick

Mickorod Renard: Hi ZenI could research a background and then invite our thoughts and our own individual practices

Aph: yes, but I learn from that discomfort- or canWol Euler: Wol Euler excuses herself and slips away. Sorry, just too tired, falling asleep at my desk.

Zen: Mickorod Renard: bye Wol it just is AphPila Mulligan: bye Wol

Aph: you always say that Zen!Aphrodite Macbain: and discuss it over a 2 week period?

Zen: it's ok Aggers: Take care Wollie as long as Aphrodite Macbain: nite Wol you can accept thatWol Euler: ♥

Aph: but there are different Samúð (oo0oo): Wol :) Rest well shades of IS-nessBruce: Bye, Wol!

Zen: It applies to all groups reallyAphrodite Macbain: When would you like to prepare this mick?

Calvino Rabeni: Mickorod Renard: howThe discomfort is a signal to sort things out, or a caution signdeep do we want to go with that subject, or do we want to get into real deep stuff?

Mickorod Renard: I get Aggers: I'm off too the feeling sometimes Mickorod Renard: bye Ags that after such a period of attending Aggers: Goodbye and thank you for having me Wok, many of us Samúð (oo0oo): :) poke! \ are getting pretty deep into this stuffPila Mulligan: bye Ags

Zen: have seen people start groups and then feel they 'own' themAphrodite Macbain: as deep as we can go in a two week session

Bruce: Zen has had a lot of real-world experience with visible, intentional, communities of support and you could invite others to give their input - - regarding the broad topic of contemplation - through group emails. Samúð (oo0oo): tc Ags . Aphrodite Macbain: by aggers . and retreatsBruce: Bye, aggers. Do you think of those as your sanghas, ZenMickorod Renard: or maybe someone else would like to do it?

Zen: Mickorod Renard: or something else? when new people start to change things they objectAphrodite Macbain: here are sone other ideas for topics:

Zen: Mickorod Renard: ok I have a Aphrodite Macbain: Having a hard time pasting. Can you do it Bruce? RL sangha yesBruce: Hmmm, yes... just a sec.

Aph: change just ISAphrodite Macbain: #4 IDEAS FOR TOPICS

Bruce: SoIdeas for topics   , stability is valued.* Personal learning styles

  Violet: Change is fine...it's inevitable, and if it's not good, then it gives you a reason to broaden your horizons again* What makes a "Sangha“ How does a Sangha come into being? Does "knowing" happen for a Sangha that does not happen for an individual apart from the Sangha?

Calvino Rabeni:   by now most of us have probably talked to friends about how / why they moved in and out of groups* Personally I'm not that interested in traditional texts / sutras, Buddhist or otherwise, but I did like the Lojong series.

  AphIt: it's our ability to work with change that is valuablecould be nice to have a topic list in one place?

  Zen: yes Lately I'm interested in:  Aph

  Zen: hit the nail on the head* What is "personality"? (How do I account for it in my daily life; mine; others'; etc.)

  Violet: Yes* Transpersonal themes

  * Collective intelligence   Bruce ponders moving into and out of groups.* Neuroscience - implications for theories of mind (though

Aph: which doesn't mean we I don't now see a contemplative approach)   have no values or beliefs * In addition, there are lotsbut those values or beliefs incorporate changeof ideas in the following areas:

  Bruce: http://waysofknowing.kira.org/ Homework  Ideas   wow.. http://waysofknowing.kira.org/ Homework_Ideas/Calvinowonderful point, Aph.

 Aph: or can

 Aph: Hard to doBruce: I'm up for any topics that

Zen: fluid and flexibleinvolve ways o

Aph: yesAphrodite Macbain: Thanks

Zen: but don't we have a tendency to stuckness?Bruce: Bruce: I'm up for any topics that involve ways of knowing and that

Aph: as we get older inspire genuine engagement among Wokkers. my brain as well as my muscles Samúð (oo0oo): Samúð maximizes the chat window ;) tend to flex lessCalvino Rabeni: well stated

Zen: yehAphrodite Macbain: hehe

Zen: how about our mind?Aphrodite Macbain: we have enough for at least 6 months here!

Violet: We get into the habit of things..what's familiar is comfortableAphrodite Macbain: So we can add the topic of meditation to this

Aph: sticking Aphrodite Macbain: as a subject in itself to the familiar and the safe? yes. It's Aphrodite Macbain: anyone else with ideas? o, Pila, Mick? in our makeupAphrodite Macbain: 0

Zen: stuck Pila Mulligan: not I in old mindsets?Aphrodite Macbain: oO0Oo

Bruce: I guess for me it is a matter of trust - - and often I find it (well, not often, but USUALLY) I find it easier to trust animals OK - - - we have lots of topics suggested already. . . (and more are always welcome, of course) - - - Shall we get specific about next session? and plants and the natural order of things, rather than people (no offense, anyone).Calvino Rabeni: Virtually anything could be a ground for a way of knowing, depending

Zen: good to notice in ourselveson the community of practice

Calvino Rabeni: The diverse group can have strains based on that, around it ... so selecting might be based on what people inor the diversity can result in a greater thegroup have developed in their own life experience group intelligence .. interesting to ask what that Aphrodite Macbain: still waiting to hear if there are any other ideas depends on ... yes Bruce, trust for one thing seems basicAphrodite Macbain: OK hearing none, let's move on to what next?

Mickorod Renard: I dont know, I am getting on now but I am Bruce: still waiting to hear if there's a volunteer facilitator for the first topic . . getting ever more hungry and so forth for knowledgeCalvino Rabeni: Imagine making an A to Z list

Aph: hmmm not sure if I .. hmm, Art, Athletics, Aesthetics, ... trust my catsMickorod Renard: grin

San: no offense taken :)Calvino Rabeni: Babies, Bagua, Baking ..

Aph: lolCalvino Rabeni: Bowling

CalvinoBruce ponders the "psychology" of sanghaRabeni: etc.

Zen: Aphrodite Macbain: would anyone like totrust can induce freezing though Bruce...freezing people into how we expect them to be?take  We could either facilitate our own topic or have someone else do it.

druth Vlodovic: there Aphrodite Macbain: let's start with the topic was talk about how search engines adapt to show people the kind of things Mickorod Renard: one thing I would have to do is work out how to use the wiki and send mails they search for, until they end up living in a world consisting Aphrodite Macbain: You were wan ing to address the subject of the Sangha... of only what they want to knowCalvino Rabeni: that's a good one too

Zen: trust seems built on expectationsCalvino Rabeni: that's a good one too

Bruce: Mmmm.. I don't think I expect anyone to be anything -- except non-judgmentalIcan do all of that for you, Mick -- or I could teach you how to do it.

Aph: interesting druthAphrodite Macbain: perhaps you could do this topic early next year Mick

Calvino Rabeni: I think one skill is to recognize the unique things some other group Mickorod Renard: ty Bruce, I used to use the pab one,,I was a scribe once member has to offer and bring things to where they Aphrodite Macbain: It will give you time to see how things work recognize their valueMickorod Renard: yes

Aph: I expect people to BE judgmentalMickorod Renard: I was wondering what the Sangha was

Bruce: yes, druth, and what a drag that is.Aphrodite Macbain: So, two weeks from today is Nov 20

Mickorod Renard: yes, good point DruthPila Mulligan: US turkey day?

Aph: yes- Bruce: Sangha as a way of knowing? focus on others strengths CalMickorod Renard: what is it?

Mickorod Renard: is it a tool? this is key to the sangha, we must be open to pathsBruce: Sangha is generally understood as a community of folks who practice together, Mick...

Zen: reminds me of Christians I know who only read Christian booksAphrodite Macbain: In the suttas the word sangha (lit. "group, assembly") is usually used in one of two ways

Bruce: Is :it refers either tothere an expectation of reciprocationthe community of ordained monks and nuns (bhikkhu-sangha among sangha participants?and bhikkhuni-sangha) or to the

Aph: and acknowledge them if you can. It encourages trustcommunity of "noble ones" (ariya-sangha) — persons who have

Violet: Mm, Zenattained at

Zen: like reading a Christian book on evolutionleast stream-entry, the first stage of Awakening.

Aph: or Buddhists who only read Buddhist booksBruce: but there are larger interpretations.

Pila Mulligan: group identity is one of Aphrodite Macbain: It is our support community the most common causes of conflictBruce: yes, support community.

Zen: (not meaning Mickorod Renard: ok,,that sounds good to offend Christians. just some I met were like that)Bruce: The three jewels in Buddhism: Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha.

Aph: when it becomes them and usAphrodite Macbain: Bruce & Cal I believe you both suggested it

Mickorod Renard: Pila Mulligan: :) me too, although I read Aphrodite Macbain: to be distinguished from sangria all sorts now, Muslim , Buddhist all of themBruce: Would you like to collaborate on this, Cal?

Bruce: But, I thought Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain likes thethat sangha as sound of collaboration "container" implied a Calvino Rabeni: Yes Bruce membrane . . . and an identification.Mickorod Renard: so we are the Sangha?

Pila Mulligan: Calvino Rabeni: "working together" Claire mentioned that at the end of the PaB sessionSamúð (oo0oo): Sangha is the state of aspiration light-bulbs in a given instance

Zen: yeh I watch this in myself...like only Bruce: Bruce likes the sound of great minds rubbing against each other. reading Zen booksSamúð (oo0oo): *aspiration

Aph: we read journals and newspapers that support Aphrodite Macbain: this group can be considered one, as could members of PaB our political viewpointsSamúð (oo0oo): flux

Bruce: "we" are absolutely so, Aph.... the ones inside the sangha and "they" are the ones outside ofMickorod Renard: but we just recognise this,,we dont need to learn it?

Zen: find Zen people can be like that tooAphrodite Macbain: I would be interested in exploring the different ways of learning...

Violet: Our "tribes" can give us a valuable sense of belonging....but Bruce: So, Cal and I will collaborate on Sangha as a way of knowing - - for the next WoK session. . . Stay tuned, folks. there's still a world outside themAphrodite Macbain: it just IS Mick

Zen: Mickorod Renard: yes we reinforce each other's beliefs in sanghasAphrodite Macbain: you will learn more about it is the pointthrough the process

Calvino Rabeni: Every tribe has its sacred cowsMickorod Renard: but is Sangha a topic?

BrucePila Mulligan: satsang: "Belonging" as one criteria of sangha?an assembly of persons who listen to, talk

Zen: is that always a goodabout, and assimilate the truth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satsangthing?

Aph: I don't like the idea of a sangha being a power structure; a sangha can change for each of us depending on our needs and interests.Calvino Rabeni: yes, it's good to name it, that's a start for being conscious of something that may already be partly in place . the naming changes things too

Aph: Aphrodite Macbain: yes-I have many sanghasthe next one

druth Vlodovic: any time you step in a new direction you upset your Bruce: Cal, I don't mean to pull you into something without your agreement. solid ground you use for securityCalvino Rabeni: I agree wholeheartedly

Zen: yes DruthBruce: ok.

Mickorod Renard: I suppose this is a Aphrodite Macbain: You can fall back on me to be a pushy facilitator risk of focusAphrodite Macbain: :-)

Zen: so tempting to cling to Bruce: Cal and I will collaborate and be in touch with everyone as we go along. some belief thoughAphrodite Macbain: Ok

Bruce: I have few few RL Calvino Rabeni: those are handy at times, aph sanghas (only one I can think of at the moment), but I have many many many non-visible sanghas.Samúð (oo0oo): Samúð contemplates notion of 'benevolent dictator', commanding or leading by example a delegation of turtles, who also delegate, but..

Zen: especially if it is comfortingcontemplatively.. all the way down

Calvino Rabeni: I think belonging is a ground state Bruce: You have been a wonderful facilitator, Aph.. THANK YOU! of humans, but it's not necessarily a group identity or awarenessAphrodite Macbain: I would like to address the subject of learning

Violet: So we learn to walk with a spring in our steps, so we can hop overthe Mickorod Renard: so maybe the first session is the bringing into the group, like an initiation, into the Sangha? loose soil Calvino Rabeni: yes and keep moving :)Aphrodite Macbain: Yes excellent.

Aph: not surprising Bruce as you are a hermitAphrodite Macbain: Bruce- you will have a record of this conversation?

Aph: Aph smiles at VioletBruce: I do have a record- - - and I will post it on our wiki tonight.

Violet: ...nothing wrong with hermits! :pAphrodite Macbain: If so it should be summarized in some way. I can do that

Aph: didn't say there wasBruce: for all Wokkers to read.

Mickorod Renard: but iI think we must recognize that the fact we are here, in wok, inthinkweneed to contemplate on the next topic either now or in-between a Sangha , means we have common causeBruce: OK - - your summary would be good.

Pila Mulligan: friendship often leads people to sharing their views, even dissimilar viewsAph, would you like to address the subject of learning as

Aph: or a common interestadiscussion topic?

druth Vlodovic: a Bruce: I willpurpose might be more valuable to a sanga than a structuresend you the cha tlog in advance of posting it.

Bruce: It is a chicken/egg deal, Aph. . . Perhaps I am a hermit BECAUSE I could not find viable sanghas.Aphrodite Macbain: OK. I'm going to summarize itr and remove all the irrelevant remarks and put it into the procedures of the WoK wiki

druth Vlodovic: Aphrodite Macbain: Yes Pila acting as Pila Mulligan: :) a loose guideMickorod Renard: great

San: bye dear hermit thrushes ~ work callsBruce: cool - - - very efficient, Aph.

Violet: Take Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Bruce care, San :)Bruce: My pleasure!

Pila Mulligan: bye SanAphrodite Macbain: I'd be very happy to collaborate with you Pila

Bruce: Hey, folks, -- we will meet again in Aphrodite Macbain: So we will meet next on November 24? two weeks....Bruce: yes.

Calvino Rabeni: Fly wellis that a US holiday?

Aph: yes, perhaps Bruce. Good pointBruce: 2 p.m. slt -- here.

Mickorod Renard: bye San, be wellall went too quick :(

Zen: bye SanCalvino Rabeni: If so I'd

Bruce: on the 15th of December.not be able to attend

Aph: ByeAphrodite Macbain: and December 8?

Aph: Bye! SanBruce: It is Thanksgiving, Cal.

druth Vlodovic: cya sanPila Mulligan: Thurs = Nov 24

Violet: Is that the current schedule? Every other weekBruce: Do you want to put off the next session until December 8th?

Bruce: Between now and then, Cal and Aphrodite Macbain: Sorry if I act as a dictator... I will hone in a bit on some themes - - and we'll still be discussing sangha.Calvino Rabeni: ah ... that Thursday 2 weeks from now probably won't be workable for US people

Bruce: yes, every other week.Pila Mulligan: maybe start next Thursday, the 17th?

Mickorod Renard: that was quick :('s a good idea

Aph: San and Pila Mulligan: then Dec 1 Bleu are my art /creative sangha in SLAphrodite Macbain: Is that enough time to prepare?

Calvino Rabeni: yes and/or satsangthat could work... Bruce?

Bruce: and we will How about Thursday December 1st? also need to find a good topic for January.Bruce: yes, that would be good for me -- 12/1/2011

Violet: Okay....that works a little better for me....Mickorod Renard: Sangha wouldn't need to be too deep

Aph: unless we want to continue with this. The list of ideas will be posted on the wiki - somewhere...Bruce: oh - - I can tell you've never been up to your knees in DEEP SANGHA , Mick. . . ;-)

Bruce: So, thank you Aphrodite Macbain: perfect, the 1st and then the 15th all very much for being here todayBruce: yes, 1st, 15th, and so on. . . I look forward to editing this Mickorod Renard: do I roll a trouser leg up Bruce? chat log and posting it. . .Aphrodite Macbain: Ok now I'll relax

Bruce: ha ha!!! that's always a sort of sangha experience for me.Calvino Rabeni: ok .. thanks everyone ... GTG... take care

Violet: :)Aphrodite Macbain: wear boots

Pila Mulligan: thanks for doing it BruceSamúð (oo0oo): lol

Mickorod Renard: perhaps the bye cal ty commitment we Bruce: THANKS, everyone! have made to Pila Mulligan: bye Cal each other Aphrodite Macbain: Bye is bonding enough to inspire Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Cal - thanks what we are looking forCalvino Rabeni: Bye :)

Aph: Thanks Bruce for facilitating the discussionPila Mulligan: bye everyone :)

Mickorod Renard: thanks Brucebye Pila,,take care

Aph: always very gently doneSamúð (oo0oo): me too ..

Bruce: well, thank all of you, too!thanks tc everyone

Bruce: ;-)Aphrodite Macbain: Bye

Violet: I'm going to head kitchenwise now....thank you, Bruce. Be well, everyone :)Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! all. Let me know if you'd like to work with me

Aph: Byeon

Aph: Bye! everyone.learning Pila

Bruce: May all be well and happy.Thanks Aph! I will have the

Pila Mulligan: bye everyone -- and thankschat log to you soon.

Violet: :)Mickorod Renard: bye oOOOo

Mickorod Renard: bye Aphthank you Aph,,

Zen: Bruce: Byeeeeee! bye everyoneSamúð (oo0oo): :)

Mickorod Renard: bye PilaPila Mulligan: no, Aph, just assuring the topic got onted

Calvino Rabeni: ByeMickorod Renard: bye Brucie