07.21.2011 - Pride & Self Esteem

Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I guess we can get started...today we're looking at pride
goodeskyler: and all of you are Jehovas Witnesses of course!
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Zen's report has some very good questions
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): http://waysofknowing.kira.org/3Reports/Zen_Arado/Report_102
Zen (zen.arado): you want a Watchtower copy Skyler?
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :)
Zen (zen.arado): well are we proud people?
Zen (zen.arado): is it right to feel proud of achiebements?
Zen (zen.arado): or roght to feel proud of where we come from?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think it's natural to feel proud of our accomplishments....but if we need that to feel greater self esteem, that can be a negative thing, no?
Zen (zen.arado): yes agree Violet
Zen (zen.arado): as if we always need to keep doing things to prove our self worth
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): The connection to self esteem is interesting to me....is pride sometimes maladjusted self esteem?
Zen (zen.arado): I think there is a connection certainly
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Aph :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Aphrodite :)
Aphrodite Macbain: hello. Sorry I'm late
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Perhaps too much pride inflates the ego to unhealthy levels?
Zen (zen.arado): I notice disabled ppllike me often become overachievers
Zen (zen.arado): as if to prove we aren't useless after all
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): No problem....we're discussing pride
Zen (zen.arado): yeh ...it is part of ego structure too isn't it?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Mm, Zen...can that be a motivating force?
Zen (zen.arado): so low self esteem can be a great motivator
Aphrodite Macbain: I imagine pride is about maintaining the ego
Zen (zen.arado): snap
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :)
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Aphrodite Macbain: /me snaps her fingers
Arisia Vita: what about pride in the accomplishments of others?
Zen (zen.arado): yeh like national sportsmen
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I'd sort of thought of that, too....we're usually proud of our children
Zen (zen.arado): much pride in N.Ireland about our golfers
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): or friends even ? :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, one can be proud of our friends, our school our "team"
Aphrodite Macbain: It seems to be something to do with identity
Zen (zen.arado): often wonder if national pride is healthy thing
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): But filial pride is more inherent, isn't it? Like having an internsel sense of self worth
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Inherent even
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): While national pride seems more external....we feel proud of the tribes we belong to
Zen (zen.arado): pride isn't just an acceptance that we are good at some things though?
Zen (zen.arado): it is being too inflated and in love with them
Aphrodite Macbain: yes Zen. Maybe it's to do with the degree of pride- a continuuam. jingoism at the extream end
Aphrodite Macbain: continuum
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think you're right, Aphrodite
Zen (zen.arado): yes...and that pride can be worked up into waging war
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Do we need to accomplish things to feel pride our have our self worth boosted? Surely there is something to be said for living each day in the moment and enjoying life. That's a kind of pride to I feel.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): National pride is similar to that need to prove our self worth externally, isn't it?
Zen (zen.arado): but aren't Americans right to be proud of the shuttle (being topical)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): We'll "show them"
Zen (zen.arado): he he yes
Aphrodite Macbain: He that has pride eats up himself" W Shakespear
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Perhaps that is tribalism rather than pride - but there is a link I'm sure :)
Zen (zen.arado): that's why I wonder if we have much low self esteem Lolli
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes, Lolli...I think if we have an internal sense of self worth, we might fall into the traps of harmful kinds of pride less often
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Who is "we" ?
Zen (zen.arado): all of us
Zen (zen.arado): ?
Aphrodite Macbain: Webster: A sense of one's own worth, and abhorrence of what is beneath or unworthy of one; lofty self-respect; noble self-esteem; elevation of character; dignified bearing; proud delight; - in a good sense.
Zen (zen.arado): but you know that Dalai Lama story?
Aphrodite Macbain: no?
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Thank you Zen.
Aphrodite Macbain: what story?
Zen (zen.arado): it's in the article I posted
Aphrodite Macbain: Guess I missed it.
Zen (zen.arado): His Holiness was talking about the lojong mind training practice of putting others before yourself and regarding others as more important, and oneself as lowest and others as highest. So one of these psychologists or neuroscientists said, "But what about low self-esteem and self-hatred?" And His Holiness looked totally blank, and said, "What?" And the scientist said, "You know, low self-esteem and not liking yourself." Then H.H. asked his translator, "What is this man talking about?" So his translator put it into whatever is the Tibetan equivalent of low self-esteem, and H.H. thought, and then said, "I think, very rare, very rare." The scientist asked his colleagues, "How many of you ever suffer from low self-esteem and self-hatred?" Everybody put up their hands.

For H.H., this was a big breakthrough to understanding something about Western psychological make-up, because outwardly, Westerners look very confident, especially when they go to Asia.
Zen (zen.arado): it's a famous episode
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Zen. That is such an interesting story.
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Thanks Zen, that's very interesting. Rather comforting that even if His Holiness can make mistakes, so can we :)
Zen (zen.arado): so I wonder why us Westeners suffer from low self esteem?
Zen (zen.arado): compared to Tibetans anyway
Aphrodite Macbain: Surey his Holiness understand this as it is all about the results of being too attached to things
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I wonder if low self esteem a part of cultures that emphasize individualism
Zen (zen.arado): yes and competitiveness
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): If we see ourselves as isolated from one another...
Zen (zen.arado): yes good point too
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Perhaps we seethe rich with more toys than us and think we are letting ourselves down. *ponders*
Aphrodite Macbain: but "saving face" is very much a part of oriental cultures
Aphrodite Macbain: surely self esteem isn't based on what we own
Zen (zen.arado): so that they won't have low self estemm?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hello Eliaraa :)
Zen (zen.arado): can be partly
Zen (zen.arado): and what we have achieved
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm really puzzled by that story Zen
Zen (zen.arado): or our abilities
Zen (zen.arado): why Aph?
Aphrodite Macbain: I can't believe he doesn't understand the notion of low self esteem
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): It seems like there's a conflict sometimes between our internal self worth, the limits of the world and the perceptions of others
Zen (zen.arado): well I have seen the same story a few times in other places
Zen (zen.arado): that is so true Violet
Zen (zen.arado): how do we have a true appraisal of ourselves?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Does our self esteem get stronger when our self importance gets weaker?
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): So two self worths Ataraxi, our personal belief and how much we think others value us. That's interesting...
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): And vice versa?
Aphrodite Macbain: self esteem= self importance?
Zen (zen.arado): maybe that self in=mportance is a kind of way to cover for low self esteem
Zen (zen.arado): ?
Zen (zen.arado): or taking pride in a singel achievement I mean
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): I can understand a link between self worth and importance, I've seen it many times.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Well, I was trying to think of the differences between Western and Tibetan cultures...one seems more communal than the other, so there's less emphasis on the self...and less low self esteem, perhaps?
Zen (zen.arado): yes maybe that is the key Violet
Aphrodite Macbain: Ataraxia- that sounds plausible
Zen (zen.arado): so,,,,How should we deal with approval, with criticism?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Ah...the tough questions now :)
Zen (zen.arado): I was reading a boo lately that encourages us to just bask in feeling good about ourselves from time to time
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Aphrodite Macbain: neutally? watch what emotions arise in us but not act upon them?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think it's a balance....we need connections with others, but we can't let that define our self worth
Zen (zen.arado): because of our evolutionary tendency to negativity
Zen (zen.arado): we need to feel good to balance the negativity
Arisia Vita: The wise profit equally at both window and mirror, finding enlightenment in one and humility in the other.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Good idea, Zen :)
Zen (zen.arado): true Ari
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Ah! I love that, Ari
Aphrodite Macbain: one may also feel goo about something. But it doesn't benefit us to keep basing in the feeling. It should come and then go
Aphrodite Macbain: basking
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Yes, that'sa good quote Ari
Zen (zen.arado): but our propensity to negative emotions need balanced
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- agree Ari
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): It can be good just to admire our existence for a little while
Zen (zen.arado): if I give any of you a compliment how long do you think about it?
Aphrodite Macbain: appreciate it without being proud?
Aphrodite Macbain: I would re-think it a few times
Zen (zen.arado): just allowing ourselves to feel good about ourselves
Aphrodite Macbain: but soon the pleasure would dry up after re-thinking it too many times.
Aphrodite Macbain: it looses its flavour after too many chews
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Well, perhaps if so many of us do have low self esteem, perhaps we need to have a bit more pride to bring back the balance :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I tend to remember insults more vividly, unless I catch myself
Aphrodite Macbain: the hurtful ones go deeper
Zen (zen.arado): you know the old adage that if many ppl give you compliments during a day you just need one criticism to forget the compliments
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): So I think there's value in allowing ourselves to feel good about ourselves, sometimes
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Zen (zen.arado): will dwell on the criticism
Aphrodite Macbain: why do we do this? ar we so insecurwe?
Zen (zen.arado): think it is programmed into us Aph
Zen (zen.arado): made us better survivors
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Mm
Aphrodite Macbain: we survive better with thin skins?
Aphrodite Macbain: we may survive living but we may not be happy
Zen (zen.arado): the insecure peole ran away quicker than the happy go lucky types
Zen (zen.arado): so they survived and passed on theor genes
Zen (zen.arado): yes exactly Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: their fearful genes?
Zen (zen.arado): so maybe a little self pride is good for us
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Aphrodite Macbain: good poit - an antidote
Aphrodite Macbain: point
Aphrodite Macbain: Are we discussing pride b/c we discussed sham last week?
Zen (zen.arado): so we are all wonderful people are we not?
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): yes *wonders if she can remember it *
Aphrodite Macbain: shame
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): To exist at all is a wonder, so yes :)
Aphrodite Macbain: we are people full of wonder
Zen (zen.arado): yes..it seemed the flip side Aph
Zen (zen.arado): ha you are wriggling out of it :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes, Aph...last week we wondered if pride was another aspect of whatever it is that defines shame...
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): We're wriggly people, too :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I am ashamed to say I often feel pride
Zen (zen.arado): one thing I lie about Americans is how often they do encourage each other
Aphrodite Macbain: rather than criticizing each other?
Zen (zen.arado): my culture can be mean spirited
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Zen (zen.arado): parents are so encouraging to their children
Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps it's aprotective resonse to tough times
Zen (zen.arado): just a general impressiin mind
Aphrodite Macbain: response
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): There is a "can do" element to American culture...
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Zen (zen.arado): a positiveness
Aphrodite Macbain: wonder why
Zen (zen.arado): hard question
Aphrodite Macbain: Canadians aren't like that. They are very self deprecating
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): We have a "don't need to" - we're British culture. Doesn't help :)
Zen (zen.arado): you think?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): hehe Lolli
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: we are very un nationalistic- except with hockey games
Zen (zen.arado): but some American mannerisms are infiltrating us British I think
Zen (zen.arado): 'have a nice day'
Zen (zen.arado): etc
Aphrodite Macbain: A people which takes no pride in the noble achievements of remote ancestors will never achieve anything worthy to be remembered with pride by remote descendants.
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): I think you'll find Zen that remarks like that have only infiltrated the lower classes who don't play cricket and or have a Butker ;-)
Zen (zen.arado): when I was young someone who 'loved himself' was ridiculed
Zen (zen.arado): yeh maybe Lolli :)
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): *sips tea*
Aphrodite Macbain: yes. emotional language is regarded with suspicion
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :)
Zen (zen.arado): or someone with a 'big head'
Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps it's part of what Christianity teaches
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Lots of room for ideas, in a big head....
Zen (zen.arado): so we British need more love and encouragement
Aphrodite Macbain: especially the Old Testament
Aphrodite Macbain: ((((Zen))))
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Oh I used to be called a big head so much when I was kid, forgot how it hurt :-/
Zen (zen.arado): yes..the idea that we are rotten sinners isn't encouraging
Aphrodite Macbain: because you were smart?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think Western culture has an element of self sacrifice
Aphrodite Macbain: Lolli?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Oh, I'm sorry, Lolli :(
Zen (zen.arado): kids cut down the 'tall poppies'
Aphrodite Macbain: sounds like someone who was jealous of you
Aphrodite Macbain: envy - the great equalizer
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): No, no it is no problem :)
Zen (zen.arado): yes these qualities are interrelated
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Envy is a space on the shelf where pride would fit, isn't it?
Zen (zen.arado): jealousy, pride, shame
Zen (zen.arado): seven deadly sins?
Aphrodite Macbain: 3 of them
Aphrodite Macbain: 2 sides of thee same coin Ata?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): We're too slothful for the rest :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes, I think so
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): These are all interrelated, as Zen said, I think
Zen (zen.arado): what were the rest?
Aphrodite Macbain: envy?
Aphrodite Macbain: adultery
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony.
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Mira :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Mira :)
Aphrodite Macbain: ah yes, lust and glutony.- they take energy
Aphrodite Macbain: Miralee. Hello
Aphrodite Macbain: nice hair!
Miralee Munro: Hello everyone
Miralee Munro: sorry to interrupt
Zen (zen.arado): np
Zen (zen.arado): we are nearly finished anyway
Zen (zen.arado): do we want a topic for next week?
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Hi Miralee
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): How about something positive!!
Zen (zen.arado): we were talking about pride Mira
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I like positivity :)
Miralee Munro: Ooohhhh ....
Miralee Munro: and pride wasn't positive?
Zen (zen.arado): yeh but that isn't so interesting :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): We aren't very proud of our pride, I suppose :)
Miralee Munro: Mmmmmm ... interesting.
Miralee Munro: Interesting subject to talk about though.
Zen (zen.arado): well I think we have a right to be proud of ourselves
Zen (zen.arado): not excessively though
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think it cuts both ways....
Miralee Munro: Yes, people take pride in their work and achievements ... it's the first step in developing a child's self esteem isn't it?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Pride can be either positive or negative...
Zen (zen.arado): yes...slef esteem featured heavily too tonight
Miralee Munro: Perhaps BALANCE is a natural extension
Miralee Munro: Everything in moderation.
Miralee Munro: Even excess!
Miralee Munro: lol
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Balance and rest would be good
Zen (zen.arado): yes and I think we need to be more proud to balance natural negativity
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): I'm not sure Miralee, I think if you have a deficit then you need more of one than the other to get the balance back - than yes, moderation.
Miralee Munro: /me nods
Miralee Munro: One thing I've always wanted in life
Miralee Munro: is a rock-steady fulcrum
Miralee Munro: so that whenever I do get out of balance, I have this fulcrum to get me re-balanced.
Zen (zen.arado): I think we have one
Miralee Munro: Mine is defective then Zen.
Miralee Munro: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: where?
Zen (zen.arado): we come back to our inner being
Miralee Munro: I veer wildly for quite a while ...
Miralee Munro: /me nods
Aphrodite Macbain: our bodhichitta?
Zen (zen.arado): our natural self
Miralee Munro: Yes, that is what I am working on now
Zen (zen.arado): yeh
Zen (zen.arado): the one unadorned by pride
Miralee Munro: I have found grief to be a good 'balancer'
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Miralee Munro: it makes you realise what is important and what isn't.
Aphrodite Macbain: I could do without grief
Zen (zen.arado): wb Violet
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Thanks :)
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Me too Aph
Miralee Munro: Yeah, well joy is a better one
Miralee Munro: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: /me smiles ar Lolli
Aphrodite Macbain: at
Miralee Munro: But tears are purifying.
Miralee Munro: Aren't they?
Aphrodite Macbain: they release tension
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): How long does it take to get self esteem back to a healthy level - anyone know?
Aphrodite Macbain: but the grief usually emains
Aphrodite Macbain: too long
Miralee Munro: depends from where Lolli
Miralee Munro: Self esteem can be totally annihilated
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): I was kinder hoping for a 3 weeks, 4 days and 35 mins type answer :))
Miralee Munro: or just dented.
Miralee Munro: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: lol lollie
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): ROFL!!!
Aphrodite Macbain: ROFL??
Miralee Munro: It takes as long as it takes.
Miralee Munro: You got a hot date, or something?
Miralee Munro: lol
Miralee Munro: A deadline?
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): No, that's the problem!
Miralee Munro: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: just a cool one?
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): not even cool,
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :)
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): :)
Miralee Munro: I guess it depends on what happened to your self esteem Lolli.
Aphrodite Macbain: awww
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): I have good friends though, and not the only single women in the world :)
Aphrodite Macbain: yes. you can let it bother you or choose not to. easy to say, hard to do
Miralee Munro: /me nods
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think it helps to embrace things that enrich your internal self worth....
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Rather than worrying about the perceptions of others
Zen (zen.arado): but even just noticing our pprpensity to quickly feel pride or hurt so easily can defuse itr to an extent
Miralee Munro: Lolli ... I think it's worth mentioning ... when you say, "Not the only single woman in the world" ....
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Yes, but I am the best ;-)
Miralee Munro: that it sounds like there is a lot riding on you having someone else.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yeah, that's a pretty big boat :)
Miralee Munro: lol
Miralee Munro: I'm just learning this lesson myself
Zen (zen.arado): societal pressure
Miralee Munro: that you can't fill YOUR life with someone else
Miralee Munro: you have to fill it with YOU.
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Really Miralle, you sound so confident too
Zen (zen.arado): great Mira :)
Miralee Munro: We are all learning lessons.
Zen (zen.arado): so positive
Zen (zen.arado): so many positive people in SL
Aphrodite Macbain: Lesson numero uno += learn to love and respect yourself
Zen (zen.arado): and we are so creative too
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): A good thing to remember sometimes is that every woman is a single woman
Zen (zen.arado): and intelligent
Miralee Munro: lol
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Our relationships should enrich our lives, not define them
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): :)
Miralee Munro: That's right Ata
Aphrodite Macbain: every person is a single person

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Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Great - so, we've had a meeting for 60 mins and spent another 41 mins deciding what to talk about next week. I suggest procrastination *giggles*5
Miralee Munro: That woman went on to create a magnificent sanctuary for women ...
Miralee Munro: lol Lolli
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Miralee Munro: You are such a great wit.
Galbatorix Arai: 'what to talk about next week?'?
Galbatorix Arai: what do you mean
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think "Procrastination" should be a suggested topic that we never quite get around to :)
Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Yep !!
Zen (zen.arado): yeh...we'll do it some time
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :)
Miralee Munro: Going with the flow vs procrastination
Zen (zen.arado): we can do it if you want Violet...seriously
Miralee Munro: I'm not working now and it's just lovely to feel absolutely free to do whatever I want, whenever I want.
Zen (zen.arado): yes something like that
Miralee Munro: and not feel guilty
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): There's a thread in that that could be good...
Miralee Munro: Feeling guilty is another big thing.
Zen (zen.arado): my problem is prioritizing
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Time, obligation, procrastination....
Zen (zen.arado): choosing what to do
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I have trouble with that, too
Galbatorix Arai: im gonna take a walk
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Galbatorix :)
Zen (zen.arado): bye Gal
Galbatorix Arai: cya
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I should be going...it's almost dinnertime for me
Arisia Vita: me too...
Zen (zen.arado): it's almost midnight for me
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Should we go with that, next week? Time, procrastination and priorities?
Zen (zen.arado): yeh sure Vi
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Okay :)