05.19.2011 - Nisargadatta II [Notion of Self]

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    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello everyone :)
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): And Ags!
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Hi Atari
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Hello everybody :)
    Chi Aho: hi, agatha
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): By everybody I mean all three of us...
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Ah Gaya
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Hello, didn't see you
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Guess we give a couple more minutes?
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): /me nods
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Mm, I guess it's a slow day
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Is eliza coming?
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Cal :)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Hello Calvino
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Calvino :)
    Calvino Rabeni: :) Hello
    Chi Aho: Hi, Cal
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Gilles :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Chi , long time
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Bonsoir gilles :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Gilles :)
    Chi Aho: Yes, it has been
    Gaya Ethaniel: Links to reports are here while you are waiting - http://waysofknowing.kira.org/
    Gilles Kuhn: good evening
    Gaya Ethaniel: Shall we start then?
    Gaya Ethaniel: So the quote was ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: You cannot possibly say that you are what you think yourself to be! Your ideas about yourself change from day to day and from moment to moment. Your self-image is the most changeful thing you have. It is utterly vulnerable, at the mercy of a passer by. A bereavement, the loss of a job, an insult, and your image of yourself, which you call your person, changes deeply. To know what you are you must first investigate and know what you are not. And to know what you are not you must watch yourself carefully, rejecting all that does not necessarily go with the basic fact: 'I am'. The ideas: I am born at a given place, at a given time, from my parents and now I am so-and-so, living at, married to, father of, employed by, and so on, are not inherent in the sense 'I am'. Our usual attitude is of 'I am this'. Separate consistently and perseveringly the 'I am' from 'this' or 'that', and try to feel what it means to be, just to be, without being 'this' or 'that'.
    Gaya Ethaniel: All our habits go against it and the task of fighting them is long and hard sometimes, but clear understanding helps a lot. The clearer you understand that on the level of the mind you can be described in negative terms only, the quicker you will come to the end of your search and realise your limitless being. - Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
    Gilles Kuhn: sqo this gentlemant re invent powder about the distinction between essence and accident and apply that to the concept of self in resume?
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Can you say a bit more Gilles?
    Gilles Kuhn: Socrates has a sunburn that sunburn will fade but even if not it will remain socrates thats an accident in Aristoteles terms
    Gilles Kuhn: Socrates is a conscious human thats if you take of socrates is no more socrates its part of his essence again in aritotles terminology
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Wol :)
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Wol :)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Hi Wollie :))
    Wol Euler: gah
    Gilles Kuhn: hello wol
    Wol Euler: hello eveyrone, I'm stuck :(
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Gah?
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Hello Stuck
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm cloud again ...
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): hehe
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): I see you fine Gaya
    Gilles Kuhn: now apply that elemental distinction to the quote .....
    Wol Euler: don't mind me, pls continue
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh ok
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): What have you been drinking Wol?
    Wol Euler: tea
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Oh
    Wol Euler: and a shot of lag juice
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Evidently
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well Gilles at least I'm confused ... maybe you could put what you mean by 'self' in some more plain words?
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think what Nisargadatta is pointing out is that our identity isn't essential; we're changing all the time, so we shouldn't get stuck on one particular aspect of our lives
    Gilles Kuhn: its not first the problem of self its a problem of language the guy who said that apparently had not read aristoteles or is unable to see a difference between a detail and an essential characteristic or both.....
    Gilles Kuhn: and that i contest ataraxia
    Chi Aho: So as a practical matter, we have more than one identity?
    Gilles Kuhn: i can be insulted harm hurt tortured but i will struggle to remain me in my essence remember kipling poem
    Gilles Kuhn: chi your phrase is contradictory in its very own terms
    Wol Euler: IMHO yes, many identities. Consider your secret inner fantasy life, for example :)
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Anya :)
    Anya Heberle: hi ;)
    Gilles Kuhn: identity dont mean its necessary public wol
    Chi Aho: Please explain, gilles.
    Gaya Ethaniel: This is not a debate ... just sharing what each of us see :)
    Gilles Kuhn: please explain chi as i claim you said a contradictin
    Gilles Kuhn: which i call a debate gaya
    Chi Aho: Well I don't understand how having more than one identity is a contradiction at all.
    Gilles Kuhn: and its not about seeing its about commenting a text i am wrong?
    Gilles Kuhn: identity mean the same
    Gilles Kuhn: and it is not if you are pathologically mentally ill thats call multiple personnality disorder
    Gaya Ethaniel: We're using the quote as a focus to centre our discussion, not necessarily a critique ...
    Chi Aho: Identity is being used here to refer to how we identify - our answer to the question Who am i?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Anyway, I will stop interrupting :)
    Gilles Kuhn: i am who i am to remain in quote.....
    Chi Aho: hi, Anya
    Anya Heberle: ❤ Thank UUU!!  ❤ again ;)
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Hello Anya
    Anya Heberle: <waves>
    Gilles Kuhn: the quote try using accidental things to demonstrate that the sense of identity of self is a fallacy i can accept that idea is worth of discussion but the arguments used by that author to make his point are childish
    Chi Aho: Isn't the idea that our identity shifts, is changing. So the question is Who am I?
    Wol Euler: the arguments used to make your point are ad hominem
    Gilles Kuhn: too the idea you can define yourself only in a negative manner (what you are not) its displaced as it is only necessary to define god in western theology for very different reason
    Anya Heberle: how are our Identity shifts changing
    Gilles Kuhn: ad hominem ? wol please i say an argument is incorrect i have not saiud the author had a scar on his nose
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): When we talk about identity...in this context, I think we're talking about specific ways of framing our relationships to the world, which are all situational....they don't entirely define us, and if we can't be entirely defined....
    Gilles Kuhn: definition is external the feeling of self and of identity is internal and i will venture to say its almost qualic
    Gilles Kuhn: which i agree is heavily discutable
    Anya Heberle: I feel I have a difference of body to my mind
    Anya Heberle: makign self a more solid interpretation than reality
    Chi Aho: ?
    Gilles Kuhn: actually Anya your body feeling is a creation of your mind/brain so you are i think right
    Anya Heberle: *.*
    Anya Heberle: ❤ Thank UUU!!  ❤
    Anya Heberle: It is the better idea I could find to consider the question !
    Anya Heberle: I appologise for the emotes too ,!
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Sorry, I'm being called
    Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Take care
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Agatha :)
    Gilles Kuhn: bye agata
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Agatha :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Why I can't see Wol anymore?
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Wol left, just a second ago
    Chi Aho: Well, I see this as a question about how a person identifies, how he/she answers the question "Who Am I"? Is this correct?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Helllo Zen :)
    Gilles Kuhn: Gnoti Seauton know thyself.....
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok ...
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think what Nisargadatta is getting at is...when we try to pin down these definitions of who we are, they slip away. We have to begin defining ourselves in the negative--we are not wholly our job, or our social roles, or our relationships to others....and in doing that, we can reach an awareness without laying our filters over that.
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Zen :)
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi all
    Zen (zen.arado): sorry for lateness..had trouble logging on
    Gilles Kuhn: as i said your job social role lenght of arm and nose scar are accidental and not essential
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Glad they got resolved, Zen :)
    Anya Heberle: a plant does not dissasociate itself from its growth spree as far as I know , or do other things yet Self is a trait that is completely more human than most anything else in the case that we have a word for it,
    Gilles Kuhn: BUT that dont mean that when you take out all the accidental nothing remain as that author imply
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Dao :)
    Gilles Kuhn: well we are not plant
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Dao :)
    Gilles Kuhn: and those have not sense of self that we are aware of to put it mildly
    Dao Yheng: Hi all, sneaking in :)
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Dao :)
    Anya Heberle: no but does that make my subposition correspond with anythign surrounding the aspect of a more truer being and relation than actual reality
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Livegame
    Calvino Rabeni: Do I take it that basically you all basically assume that there IS something essential to be found, in an investigation of "self"?
    Gilles Kuhn: anya could you rephrase that please?
    Anya Heberle: through self than , effect
    Chi Aho: Well, if we kept "peeling the onion" and kept up saying we are not this and not that, in the end we would only be a changing uncertainty in the face of nothingness.
    Gilles Kuhn: calvino the sense of self for me at least for Descartes aswell is the only thing we can negate
    Gilles Kuhn: Chi the non being is not and his way is labyrinth and there is notruth ever to find in it to paraphrase Parmenides
    Anya Heberle: I was wondering that even though my self was more real to me than the aspect that I had a pysicla deviation of that , make me more aware than a plant which doe not deny is pure and true function of being its organsiesd structure
    livegame: hi guys can i sit?
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, the peeling is a thought exercise. It seems to be interepreted to say that some essential will be found. But what about the contrary, that at some point self disappears, like Hal being turned off in the 2001 movie Anya Heberle: its pure *
    Gilles Kuhn: anya the platn as no idea of anything so is unabl to deny......
    Anya Heberle: exactly :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I will IM you livegame with group intro :)
    Anya Heberle: so am I less awarwre of self or more
    Gilles Kuhn: yes Calvino we die eventually....
    Zen (zen.arado): I find this hard to discuss in philosophical terms
    Zen (zen.arado): it deesn't make any sense that way
    Anya Heberle: dont be affraoid, Im sure that self is the definition behiind evolution
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Well, when Nisargadatta talks about not being this or that, he's referring to netti netti I think, which is less about negation as much as leaving specific qualities behind....in advaita, the self and the absolute are identical, and can only be defined by what they aren't--the moment we define something, we limit it, and there is always something deeper to the self than what definitions we place on it
    Gilles Kuhn: the only thing we have is our self and to hold on it permit us to have relation with other selves even if they fleeting and eventually die thats what we are and that permit us to create to be conscious and to have relations
    Calvino Rabeni: the quote seems to imply that some essence will be found by peeling off the contingent parts of identity
    Anya Heberle: or at least being
    Anya Heberle: liek DNA is actually a Giant codex of your historical lineage
    Anya Heberle: its more a gift that a structur!!.. perhaps to tjhose who may understand
    Zen (zen.arado): we can hold the two awarenesses together can't we?
    Dao Yheng: Gilles, if other selves are fleeting and die, then certainly one's own self is fleeting and dies?
    Zen (zen.arado): we need the relative dimension in everyday life
    livegame: ok guys thank you very much
    Anya Heberle: it is saturated vocally as the awareness the egop and the will and being
    Gilles Kuhn: Ataraxia if we are god and the asolute then in creating us he wanted to forget his absolutness and have some fun in being limited and selfish for a change dont you think?
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): We can define ourselves by our work or our relationships, but that's only a piece of who we are. If we want to define what we absolutely are, there's only an absence of specific qualities.
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yeah, I've always liked that view :p
    Zen (zen.arado): we know we are part of some vast awareness underneath
    Gilles Kuhn: Dao yes but its the time between those two absolute void and senseless darkness this time that is our live that is all and all we can have
    Zen (zen.arado): yes Violet
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gilles Kuhn: (good heaven after sounding aristotlecian i sound nietzschean now i need to change of wine brand....)
    Zen (zen.arado): senseless hmmm...
    Zen (zen.arado): not logical but...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Many brands to choose from hey? :)
    Gilles Kuhn: Ataraxia may i point that the very concept of absolute is a creation of us?
    Dao Yheng: I was going to say, maybe we're rubbing off on you :)
    Dao Yheng: So then that having or that contact as you put it later on is part of the value, rather than the notion of anything permanent
    Chi Aho: Gilles, there is a difference between the concept of the absolute, i.e. the "absolute" as an idea, and the *experience* of such mystically or in meditation.
    Anya Heberle: with it and with a greater understanding, we might understand complex thought forms beyond what we know
    Gaya Ethaniel: Apparently 'self' can't understand the absolute but it hasn't stopped any of us talking about it :)
    Gilles Kuhn: yes chi at least the idea and concept we can talk about and it has some substance due to that the other.....
    Chi Aho: is outside of your experience
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Well, like the quote says, it kind of goes against our habits to let go of our ideas and turn our attention to our amness
    Anya Heberle: such as pre arranged marriage,meeting/ certains tasks to achive , or even places to be sure of rebirth of the next edevloping initiative
    Gilles Kuhn: and then is impossible to know or even prove to exist chi yes
    Chi Aho: for those not having had the experience, there is no convincing
    Anya Heberle: it may be a complex guidline tto a host of activity we are unwaware exists in our more aware state. or at least. in a place to help us achieve some order over a chaos
    Anya Heberle: flash being claw , awareness beeing the will and teh shaping element
    Chi Aho: its like the taste of an orange or a lover's kiss - how can such be described?
    Gilles Kuhn: so as i deem metaphysic as a intellectual masturbation that is pointless but for having fun (which is not pointless as it is nice per se but is not to be taken ever seriously...)
    Anya Heberle: the combing being the sole
    Anya Heberle: soul!
    Anya Heberle: combination being the soul!
    Gilles Kuhn: Chi by analogy or by giving a kiss or a orange depending if you need to demonstrate to a beautifull girl or a old witch your point
    Anya Heberle: flesh being Clay.... awareness being will and the shaping element of self awareness , I meant...sorry for the spelling errors!
    Gilles Kuhn: but to show the absolute good luck....
    Gaya Ethaniel: Gilles ... you're sometimes too dramatic for me ^^;;;
    Gaya Ethaniel: We can talk about stuff ... you know, it doesn't have to be something grand or totally useless.
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Well...I think we're drifting, somewhat... We're talking about the opposite of metaphysics, I think...just learning to focus on the experience of being
    Dao Yheng: To me, Gilles' point is well-taken --- recognition that permanence is not strictly necessary to find value is often the first issue in investigating the self
    Gilles Kuhn: well gaya i must confess when i heard about buddhist wanting to go out of passion and suffering i say i would prefer a good (and yes absurd) cavalry charge feeling my hairs blowing in the wind and hearing my banner flying jus behind me than passing 20 years to meditate to find a enlightmenent that is only an act of faith and probably not even there
    Zen (zen.arado): it's an experiential matter to me..ypu can't grasp it using philosphical theories
    Zen (zen.arado): it just isn't on that level
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Mm, I agree, Zen...I'm stumbling :p
    Gaya Ethaniel: That's not really Buddhism Gilles ... one does want all to be free from suffering, which requires a strong passion of another kind.
    Gilles Kuhn: passion imply to suffer gaya would you not risk suffering in order to feel love well te buddha say you need to refuse that
    Dao Yheng: suspect that I would need to be a better philosopher to make that investigation work for me personally -- philosophy = abstraction for me
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, I think here we'd like to discuss how this self issue can be seen in our daily life.
    Gilles Kuhn: daily life which not include cavalry charge sadly and war reporting is less fun.....
    Zen (zen.arado): the quote isn't Buddhist Gilles
    Dao Yheng: but I do appreciate it when someone has a way of using philosophy as a real tool (rather than a source of misdirection)
    Gilles Kuhn: i was not speaking anymore of the quote zen
    Chi Aho: Perhaps we can agree that the "self" is really our own "self concept" and that it changes and not really who we are at all.
    Gilles Kuhn: and i suspected that as buddhist are way more subtle i think
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes, Chi
    Dao Yheng: Chi, that's been a useful working definition for me
    Chi Aho: It changes and is sometimes illusionary; it is constantly fleeting as we come upon different experiences.
    Dao Yheng: just noticing that my concept of self is a concept and not "A REALITY"
    Chi Aho: But that is not who we are at all.
    Calvino Rabeni: The question is, what distinction is being made by that peeling process
    Gilles Kuhn: but Chi it remain you and if you have will your experience will only enrich your self and make it more
    Chi Aho: Well, the peeling off is to rid ourselves of false notions about who we are.
    Calvino Rabeni: Perrhaps it separates one kind of not-really-self from another kind of not-really-self
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): The distinction between being a self defined by the world, and just being I think, Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Why should we assume that it distinguishes a false self from something less false
    Gilles Kuhn: and what the hell can we but ourself? god perhaps? then i repeat i we athman then the brahma want to feel and in order to feel you need to be limited
    Calvino Rabeni: or that after the peeling there is anything left that can be called self in a different way
    Zen (zen.arado): thr selves aren't false to me...just convenient roles
    Gilles Kuhn: if we are athman*
    Zen (zen.arado): but we identify with them
    Dao Yheng: Hmm, interesting point, Zen!
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I don't think that being illusory makes our "self concepts" ( I'm stealing that, Chi :) ) wrong or useless or anything, though
    Gilles Kuhn: indeed ataraxia and what is illusory and what is not?
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes, I agree, Gilles
    Chi Aho: /me agrees with atari adding that we must recogniaze though that we are not our self-concept
    Chi Aho: which means we are not who we might think that we are
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes. That's why it's helpful to realize what we aren't, and focus on that we are.
    Gilles Kuhn: we are good lord i dont care what i am in a absolute way i just care what i feel i am and what i construct as myself because i know that i cannot ascertain more
    Chi Aho: I am unwilling to be either a personal construction or a social construction.
    Dao Yheng: "No Truth" is probably the closest thing we'll ever get to an accurate statement
    Zen (zen.arado): really you have to put some faith in the process and practice it...you will never figure it out on the level of the mind I think
    Chi Aho: Another accurate statement: I AM.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Almost time to go ...
    Gilles Kuhn: again chi for me what you say is pratically useless and i never spoke of a social construction dont be as childish as the author
    Zen (zen.arado): that's as hominem Gilles
    Chi Aho: lol
    Gilles Kuhn: at the reverse what is splendid is our capacity to constreuct ourselves
    Zen (zen.arado): what is splendid about it Gilles?
    Gilles Kuhn: what you say impeach ad hominem zen
    Gilles Kuhn: " what you say"*
    Chi Aho: so people can become deluded into believing they are something that they are not, then.
    Calvino Rabeni: that certainly is splendid Giles
    Zen (zen.arado): it is about being open
    Gaya Ethaniel: mm ... continue onto next week on same topic then?
    Dao Yheng: Hee, Gaya, you're a trouper!
    Chi Aho: May I say one more thing?
    Gilles Kuhn: everything Zen ! art ! poetry even metaphysic bullshit all of that is the product of our contructed self !
    Gaya Ethaniel: ^^;;;
    Gaya Ethaniel: Of course go ahead Chi :)
    Zen (zen.arado): not closed into menta constructiokns and concepts
    Calvino Rabeni: /me listens for Chi's one more thing
    Chi Aho: I AM what I have been looking for.
    Dao Yheng: thanks, Chi -- that's a good one :)
    Zen (zen.arado): it is a product of what we are..our deeper being
    Chi Aho: Adyashanti said that.
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zen (zen.arado): not from logical thought or reasoning
    Gilles Kuhn: they are something they are not sorry chi but HOW can you know what we are in an absolute way as you fancy?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well we can discuss topics in the email group. Chi if you want to join, please IM me your address.
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Well, we are what we are....that's sort of what it comes down to, I think--we are.
    Chi Aho: Adyashanti also said: "Existence is seeking to become conscious of itself."
    Dao Yheng: I suppose I like Chi's quote because it accurately reflects a situation I find myself in -- looking for something that I already am
    Chi Aho: so it really isn't us.
    Gilles Kuhn: Adyashanti was apparently very egotist......
    Zen (zen.arado): adhominem again Gilles
    Chi Aho: Krisnamurti said it this way, Dao: "You are the world."
    Dao Yheng: Me too! but It depends on how you define "I"
    Gilles Kuhn: alterity is somlething i seldom see in oriental thinking
    Dao Yheng: (re egotist)
    Gilles Kuhn: Zen you dont want me to really become ad hominem......
    Zen (zen.arado): no
    Gilles Kuhn: then dont use that argument when it is not the case
    Calvino Rabeni: certainly not :)
    Gilles Kuhn: "Existence is seeking to become conscious of itself." is IF it is only that a view of existence that is totally egotist
    Chi Aho: Through us the universe looks back upon itself" Like that one?
    Gilles Kuhn: and i assumed perhaps wrongly that that was about a man thought as i cannot conceive a concept being conscious
    Gilles Kuhn: and for precision i cannot say anything about the ontological independance of concepts but that it is not acceptable in a rationnal argument
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Even in a purely physical sense, it's true....life is the universe experiencing itself...whether there are individual minds and egos in all of that, I don't know...
    Chi Aho: Gilles, this is not philosophy. It is an exchange of ideas about our own personal experience, how e view ourselves and the world.
    Gilles Kuhn: ah and as my personnal experience is a rationnal philosophical one where i use my mind....
    Gilles Kuhn: and how we view ourselve and the world is not a bad definition for philosophical thinking btw
    Gaya Ethaniel: I have to go I'm afraid. Please feel free to send me the rest of the log to post.
    Zen (zen.arado): so anything outside that framework is unintelligible and a waste of time Gilles?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks again :)
    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Gaya :)
    Zen (zen.arado): bye Gaya
    Chi Aho: bye Gaya
    Dao Yheng: Bye Gaya!
    Chi Aho: I must go too.
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Chi, Gaya
    Gilles Kuhn: outside thought and experience zen? well what is outside thought is indeed unintelligible by definition as said Poincarré to pretend that it is something apart of thought as no meaning at all
    Ataraxia Azemus: Take care, Chi :)
    Zen Arado: you are changing the definition Gilles
    Gilles Kuhn: no
    Dao Yheng: sneaking out now too -- have a good evening all!
    Zen Arado: bye Dao
    Ataraxia Azemus: Be well, Dao :)
    Zen Arado: art is outside logical philosophical thought wouldn't you agree?
    Gilles Kuhn: i am only pointing out that everything we can encompass is our thought and a part of it we can communicate which is waht is call rationnal thought
    Zen Arado: and this is the crux of our disagreement
    Gilles Kuhn: i never spoke of logic which is btw only a discipline about manipulating symbols which is very usefull
    Zen Arado: ok philosophical thought or arguments then
    Zen Arado: using conceptual thought
    Calvino Rabeni: are you saying Gilles that communication is limited to rational thought?
    Gilles Kuhn: philosophical thought are reflexive thought about thought itself its a peculiar part of thought zen
    Zen Arado: we thnk there is something deeper than that and you don't
    Zen Arado: you disagree with intuition Gilles?
    Gilles Kuhn: understnad rtationnal rationnal mean two things in a restricted meaning is what you can acccount for in a certain paradigm in a more broad meaning is all what we can communicate to another rationnal being
    Zen Arado: you cann communicate feelings like love without rationality
    Zen Arado: communicate feelings in art or poetry for example
    Gilles Kuhn: intuition no but what you call intuition i will call things that your sense or mind feel compute and that give you a hint that you are not hable to see how it was created
    Zen Arado: yes...outside conscious thought
    Zen Arado: outside the rational sphere
    Zen Arado: not formulable
    Zen Arado: anyway I better go
    Gilles Kuhn: zen look at my broad definition of rationnality but i agree to the fact rationnality is about clear and the less interpretable possible communication , you can "communicate" in fuzzy way too and that is what we human do most of the time
    Zen Arado: ok
    Ataraxia Azemus: Take care, Zen :)
    Zen Arado: starting to agree with you Gilles
    Zen Arado: I better go :)
    Gilles Kuhn: oh Zen i am sure its only a linguistical problem not an essential disagreement
    Ataraxia Azemus: I'm going to head off, too...take care, guys :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Violet Atara
    Gilles Kuhn: Bye Ataraxia take care too
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Violet Atara
    Gilles Kuhn: Bye Ataraxia take care too
    Calvino Rabeni: And I as well, a loaf and cheese, a sunny day, second life cannot compete with it
    Calvino Rabeni: Take care Gilles
    Gilles Kuhn: i agree ! it was rainy today in my place
    Gilles Kuhn: bye calvino

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