05.12.2011 - Nisargadatta I [Self-centeredness]

From Bruce - There are at least two precepts here that are "ways of knowing" central to many traditions: Liberation from self-centeredness and Allowing "Truth" to find us.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hi, Pila. Hi, Gaya.
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Bruce and Pila :)
Pila Mulligan: greetings\
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello again Atari :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Atari.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Zen.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi again Gaya, Bruce :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): How did you feel about my shameless plug for the WoK group, Gaya?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): And Zen :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Zen.
 Gaya Ethaniel: heh :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Plug away Bruce!
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me can't help himself. ha ha.
Gaya Ethaniel: Very nice topic, thanks again Bruce :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zon :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi again Zon :)
Pila Mulligan: Zen and Zon, hi
Zen (zen.arado): Hi all :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Zon.
Gaya Ethaniel: How is everyone?
Zon Kwan: hey again
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): feeling validated, and you?
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Happy summer's here :)
Zen (zen.arado): trying to be valid :)
Zon Kwan: feeling unreal
Gaya Ethaniel: I've been an invalid today ... heheh
Gaya Ethaniel: Still, it's all good.
Zen (zen.arado): I'm always an invalid :)
Gaya Ethaniel: (((Zen)))
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Arch and your many selves!
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Arch :)
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Arch :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi again Arch :)
Arch (archmage.atlantis): Blessings
Gaya Ethaniel: OK I will just paste the homework quote ...
Gaya Ethaniel: Self-interest and self-concern are the focal points of the false. Your daily life vibrates between desire and fear. Watch it intently and you will see how the mind assumes innumerable names and shapes, like a river foaming between the boulders. Trace every action to its selfish motive and look at the motive intently till it dissolves. Discard every self-seeking motive as soon as it is seen and you need not look for truth; truth will find you.- Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello druth :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me loves " like a river foaming between the boulders"
druth Vlodovic: hi guys
Arch (archmage.atlantis): That is a false statment as it denies who we are
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, druth!
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I liked this; the "tracing every action to its selfish motive" until you see them clearly.
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Druth :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): ( Hi again druth :) )
Zen (zen.arado): did you get the quote druth?
druth Vlodovic: yes, ty :)
Zen (zen.arado): k
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes forever flowing river ... it's really a nice image he is painting here. When I read this first round, the image of blood flowing among cells came to my mind :)
Arch (archmage.atlantis): Each cell observes it's own interests
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): oh no! Arch! The cells serve the interest of the organs.
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisargadatta_Maharaj
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): level by level.
Arch (archmage.atlantis): Only when the interests of the cells are matched, does one cell follow the lead
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me ponders . . . knowing Arch has capacity for much wisdom.
Zen (zen.arado): we need some self interest and self concern though
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I like advaita...I can see how it would work here, Pila.
Pila Mulligan: All One!
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Zen (zen.arado): not two
Gaya Ethaniel: Or maybe one and two are same :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): The two are one :)
Gaya Ethaniel: virtual snap :P
Zon Kwan: being is both one and many
Arch (archmage.atlantis): There are female spiders that lay their eggs in the body of the male to feed the new generation of spiders
Arch (archmage.atlantis): That is life as we know it
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ouch.
Zon Kwan: after killing him
Arch (archmage.atlantis): Now we are given a mind to see another way
Zon Kwan: after making love
Zon Kwan: how cruel women are
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Does Truth (if there is such a thing) "seek" us out?
Gaya Ethaniel: Zen, do you want to say more about taking care of oneself?
Gaya Ethaniel: Do you see a contradiction in the quote in this regard?
Arch (archmage.atlantis): Without that system, in spiders, there would be no more male spiders
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I understood the quote to say that truth is present underneath our selfish motivations.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): " and you need not look for truth; truth will find you"
Arch (archmage.atlantis): answers are not that easy
Zen (zen.arado): we let go of tings that block it ...it seems to me
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): My life's experience seems to indicate that - in spite of myself - there is Basic Goodness.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and that it finds me.
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Zen (zen.arado): when we allow it?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, Zen, when I let go of the hurdles I've set up to it.
Arch (archmage.atlantis): My life experience says to me that we are to establish the basic good
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Being can be enough, I think; that's part of the letting go of self centeredness, I think. Making the shift from becoming to being.
Zen (zen.arado): I think it's there all the time
Arch (archmage.atlantis): In this, I do agree with religious thought
Zen (zen.arado): just obscured
Zen (zen.arado): so if you seek for it you move away from it
Zon Kwan: i am part of that goodness
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Mm
Zen (zen.arado): we all are
Zen (zen.arado): a difference with Christian thought?
Arch (archmage.atlantis): I am shaman
Zen (zen.arado): the thought that says we are all sinners unless saved by grace
Arch (archmage.atlantis): Before Buddha, before Christian
Zon Kwan: stupis to me
Zon Kwan: sin..guilt--fear
Arch (archmage.atlantis): Before Zeus
Zon Kwan: control mechanisms
druth Vlodovic: politics infects spirituality and thus creates religion
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me agrees with druth (again) -- The worst thing that can happen to a good idea is to become a religion.
Arch (archmage.atlantis): I seek back in science to what is the best in us, before religion in what is noble in us
Gaya Ethaniel: I was reminded of our discussion back on lojong ... hopes and fear.
Zen (zen.arado): a guy came to my session this morning...he seems to have started his own religion
Gaya Ethaniel: For me also, this self has been a main question. I seem to always come back to it.
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Zon Kwan: i think we all need our own religion
Gaya Ethaniel: My koan wasn't elegant I have to say ... 'who are you' popped out. Why couldn't it be 'what is this' lol
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Actually, I no longer trust the 'self' -- except I seem to be stuck with it.
Zon Kwan: mini self or big self ?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me would love to hear more from Zen about the fellow.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I feel stuck with my self...but I'm constantly changing, too
Zen (zen.arado): what he says is to me about awareness
Arch (archmage.atlantis): Have any heard of Bryn Athyn?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I have not, Arch.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I haven't, Arch.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): What had he said, Zen?
Arch (archmage.atlantis): It is a place that exists because of a mystic from a previous century
Arch (archmage.atlantis): In the heart of Quaker Pennsylvania
Arch (archmage.atlantis): What he saw and believed is not important
Zen (zen.arado): just about coming back to the underlying awareness...the 'I Am'
Zen (zen.arado): Violet
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Mm.
Zen (zen.arado): he keeps saying that through the book
Arch (archmage.atlantis): It is only that the exploration continued
Zen (zen.arado): very simple
Gaya Ethaniel: I wonder if that 'I Am' is the awareness Buddhists talk about ...
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm not so sure.
Zon Kwan: nods..amness
Zon Kwan: not even i
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I like "amness"...
Zon Kwan: just amness
Zen (zen.arado): I thinks so Gaya
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryn_Athyn,_Pennsylvania
Arch (archmage.atlantis): Without "I Am" ....Are you?
Zon Kwan: no me no u
Zon Kwan: amness
Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... amness ... :)
Zen (zen.arado): it's like pab...keeping coming back to the basic awareness
Zen (zen.arado): the underlying I am,,ness
Zen (zen.arado): that connects with everyone else
Zon Kwan: who is thwt who is aware
Zen (zen.arado): way I see it
Zen (zen.arado): the self we add?
Zon Kwan: and what is tha awae of
Zen (zen.arado): consciousness that can self reflect
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me is getting dizzy.
Zon Kwan: can there be awareness withou an object ?
Arch (archmage.atlantis): Enlightenment is not Nirvana, to my thought
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Zon Kwan: or subect
Gaya Ethaniel: I think these have to be actually seen or felt in my experience in order to understand what self or awareness is about.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I find it interesting (if not profound) that it is impossible to have reflective mirrors in SL.
Zon Kwan: who is aware of who when self is aware of sefl
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): We are the mirrors (and here are the stones)
Zen (zen.arado): can tie oneself in knots with words this way
Zen (zen.arado): it is experiential I think
Zon Kwan: thats what words r for
Zen (zen.arado): yeh but they only go so far
Arch (archmage.atlantis): The mind tries to grasp what it is not designed to do, Zen
Zen (zen.arado): they only point
Zon Kwan: and when mind blows up..the experience
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I agree that words can confuse these experiences...
Zen (zen.arado): that's why zen tries to cut out the 'mind road'
Zen (zen.arado): koans
Zon Kwan: nods
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Mm.
Zen (zen.arado): how does Nisargadatta trace every action....?
Zen (zen.arado): Trace every action to its selfish motive and look at the motive intently till it dissolves
Gaya Ethaniel: Wonder what he would have said if asked that question :)
Zen (zen.arado): seems like meditation to me?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Meditative interrogation?
Gaya Ethaniel: heheh
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): If it is my perceptions that make my world, then it's not possible to get "ME" out of it.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): That's a bit of an oxymoron, I suppose :)
Zen (zen.arado): to increase awareness
Gaya Ethaniel: I like his suggestion of looking rather than doing something beyond that.
Zen (zen.arado): seeing..
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): but I feel that there is another way to "view" the world besides through my perceptions.
Zen (zen.arado): noticing...
Arch (archmage.atlantis): The moments of being
 Exist in the feeling
 
 The moments of I Am
 Exist in the world
 
 There are many moments
 Else I would not have told you
 
 Shalom
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): It's just that perceptions are given more energy and more "validity."
Zen (zen.arado): uh oh :)
druth Vlodovic: if you do more than look then you are in danger of laying additional obscuring layers over it
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Watching ourselves, seeing how what we did is tied to some hope or fear
Gaya Ethaniel: Seems that way yes ...
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): thank you, Atari, for bring us back.
Gaya Ethaniel: It's a difficult job being vigilant not to act that way. I don't think I do 'wu wei' stuff :) Just checking a lot ...
Zen (zen.arado): yes Violet
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Had we left? :p
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): well, not really "left" but you brought back the quote and I'm grateful.
Zen (zen.arado): but I think there are two modes of being
Zen (zen.arado): we have to be practical in RL after all
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me listens intently to Zen.
Gaya Ethaniel: /me wonders if Zen will dissolve.
Zen (zen.arado): so we switch from the awareness state to everyday living back and forth?
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think, in time, it becomes natural...sometimes I see how my reactions are...well, reactionary. Once I see that, it's easier act more than react.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes, I think so, Zen
Zon Kwan: who is watching who
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me recalls that vampires cannot see them selves in mirrors -- and neither can avatars.
 Zon Kwan: one watcher
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): So, then, is it "faith" to say that Truth will find us?
Gaya Ethaniel: I found it interesting that yoga in Tibetan means, richness of being natural :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Perhaps also in Sanskrit too? Not sure ...
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Oh! I love that :)
Zon Kwan: waves and slips o bed
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I thought "yoga" meant the yoke that binds two oxen together.
Zen (zen.arado): bye Zon
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Good night, Zon!
druth Vlodovic: isn't the goal to integrate awareness into everyday living?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Zon :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes, Bruce
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): A joining
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): unity --- with what is.
Zen (zen.arado): yes...integration...
Zen (zen.arado): we can't just sit in a deep state of awareness all day
Zen (zen.arado): or can we?
Gaya Ethaniel: hm ...
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): But . . . it is not "WE" who perform this integration?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Not all of us can :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Does that appear like a full active life Zen?
Zen (zen.arado): no
Zen (zen.arado): thinks of people in retreats that last for years
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): professionals.
Gaya Ethaniel: Once a friend came up with an image about that Bruce, walking through mist, noticing being thoroughly soaked afterwards :)
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... ok Zen ...
Zen (zen.arado): it is allowing..not doing or performing
Zen (zen.arado): great metaphor Gaya
Zen (zen.arado): ty for reminding me :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I like that image...I've done that :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Zen (zen.arado): can use that next time someone ask why I go to retreats
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): to get soaked!
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): hehe
Gaya Ethaniel: I don't think I want to be in retreats all the time though :P
Zen (zen.arado): me neither
Zen (zen.arado): but maybe the world still charms us too much?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me recalls total-immersion baptism.
Zen (zen.arado): 'all the vain things that charm me most' in a Christian hymn
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): beautiful, Zen. Thank you.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :)
Zen (zen.arado): need a few more lifetimes maybe :)
Gaya Ethaniel: heheh
Zen (zen.arado): to wear thewm out
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): You're all right . . . and right where you "need" to be, IMHO.
Zen (zen.arado): maybe I chose to be disabled this one
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Billyboby
Zen (zen.arado): but still enjoy it too much :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Billyboby :) I will IM you about the group.
Billyboby: hi
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Billyboby.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Life certainly has its charms :)
Billyboby: hi
Gaya Ethaniel: /me likes the charms :)
Zen (zen.arado): 'V'
Zen (zen.arado): oops
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Storm :)
Zen (zen.arado): Your daily life vibrates between desire and fear
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): whether physically disabled or not, we have the capacity for non-reactive feeling: love, joy, compassion, and equanimity.
Zen (zen.arado): (quote)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Storm :)
Storm Nordwind: /me waves
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes, our daily lives do that, Zen, but there are other gates.
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Storm :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Storm.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Storm is out counting prims, I suspect.
Storm Nordwind: /me chuckles
Gaya Ethaniel: Would that vibration also part of our nature though?
Zen (zen.arado): good for insomnia :)
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Storm Nordwind: baaaaaah
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): bah bah black prims have you any wool?
Zen (zen.arado): cute little prims
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes sir, yes sir, three sims full? :p
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ha!
Zen (zen.arado): he he
Zen (zen.arado): one for the master ne for the maid
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Well, shall we talk about next week's topic?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): sure!
Zen (zen.arado): k
Gaya Ethaniel: :P
Gaya Ethaniel: What are your main interests btw?
Zen (zen.arado): oh did PIla go?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes a while ago ...
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes, he snuck out a little while ago
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yeah. a long time ago, I'm afraid.
Zen (zen.arado): hope I didn't offend him
Gaya Ethaniel: Don't think so ...
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): No, I don't see how
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): no no no -- You did not offend him -- and if you did, that simply shows that he's offendable -- which he is not.
Zen (zen.arado): going to do more Nisargadatta?
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I'd like that.
Gaya Ethaniel: You want to pick one then Zen?
Zen (zen.arado): yeh
Zen (zen.arado): ok
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): cool. but someone else choose the quote this week, OK?
Gaya Ethaniel: cool :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yeah, Zen!
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): [`•.] APPLAUSE!! [.•´]
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: OK we wait to hear from you then Zen, thank you!
Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you all :)
Zen (zen.arado): send it in email?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): May the spirit of all love and peace be with you.
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Thanks, Gaya! Be well, everyone :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes please :)
Zen (zen.arado): may all beings be happy
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Thanks, Gaya!
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks you too :)
Zen (zen.arado): thanks Gaya
Violet (ataraxia.azemus): The finest wish there is, Zen :)