2009.12.10 - Workshop 37

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    The following is the transcript for the workshop of 10th December 2009.

    Stim Morane: OK, well, time to start
    Stim Morane: I'm rather tired, not much sleep and a four hour meeting a little while ago ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: ack
    Scathach Rhiadra: yuck:(
    Stim Morane: But I was glad to see tha some of you did the homework
    Timbo Quan: :(
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Mick
    Stim Morane: Hi Mick
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick
    Timbo Quan: Hi Mick
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Mick:)
    Mickorod Renard: Hiyaaaaa
    Mickorod Renard: soz i'm late
    Mickorod Renard: is it voice?
    Stim Morane: chat
    Mickorod Renard: thanks
    Stim Morane: speaking to those of you who did the breathing homework, does it make more sense to you now that I would be interested in talking to the "living being"
    in you?
    Mickorod Renard: how are you all? ok I hope
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Stim Morane: I was complaining, Mick, but am ok
    Stim Morane: and you?
    Pila Mulligan: yes, thanks, Mick
    Mickorod Renard: great
    Gaya Ethaniel: It starts to dawn on me a bit yes ... :)
    Mickorod Renard: ok thanks
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Stim Morane: Glad about the dawning, Gaya
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you :)
    Mickorod Renard: I missed homework,,was just looking on wiki but didnt see it mentioned
    Scathach Rhiadra: ahem, it was on the front page since last weekend:)
    Mickorod Renard: oops
    Mickorod Renard: read all the other articles
    Pila Mulligan: the best place to hide something
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Mickorod Renard: ;)
    Mickorod Renard: got a bit embroiled with the i ching
    Pila Mulligan perks up
    Stim Morane: I realize that there is no reason why my perspective should matter here, but when I attend many meeting (hundreds at this point) in sl,
    which mostly seem to center on the reactions and opinions of a sense of self that I don't think should be emphasized so much, I become concerned.
    It's not that it bothers me, it's that i think it sells the other people short. Unnecessarily short.
    Stim Morane: Am I making sense?
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Pila Mulligan: not entirely
    Stim Morane: say more, Pila?
    Pila Mulligan: maybe I need to read it again
    Pila Mulligan: I don't yet yunderstnd what you said, stim :)
    Gaya Ethaniel doesn't know enough to comment ... :)
    Calvino Rabeni: more please.
    Stim Morane: basically, I'm saying that people spend too much time framing themselves as something that they are not, except in a secondary sense.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Pila Mulligan: ahh, ok, thanks
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,i aggree
    Calvino Rabeni: example of that?
    Stim Morane: people are essentially diligent practitioners of an anti-practice
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Stim Morane: a practice that buries them
    Stim Morane: this happens because people simply don't notice, and don't realize the consequences
    Calvino Rabeni: what practice is that (sorry if I missed the beginning of the meeting)
    Stim Morane: ... to themselves, life, etc
    Stim Morane: Hi Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Stim, hello
    Pila Mulligan: thi s is the beginning of the meeting
    Stim Morane: I'm talking about the anti-practice that people are usually engaged in
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think people look for something else ... not what one has.
    Mickorod Renard: I am starting to realise, ,,how much I have gotten lost on the wrong path
    Stim Morane: So i was hoping that the concentrated session i proposed re breathing would excavate more of what you actually are, at least on a simple level
    Calvino Rabeni: In general, stim, or some kind of practice people learn around here?
    Mickorod Renard: that is a great statement Gaya
    Pila Mulligan: it did it seems, Stim
    Stim Morane: You're a splendid fellow, Mick.
    Stim Morane: :)
    Mickorod Renard: thankyou
    Stim Morane: Calvino, I was referring to what people normally do and say about themselves and their lives
    Gaya Ethaniel: ty Mick :)
    Stim Morane: that latter is a way of misframing ourselves, and has consequences when repeated so much
    Stim Morane: we forget what we are, or even what the notion could mean
    Stim Morane: this is very important to me, if quite unfashionable nowadays
    Stim Morane: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: and it goes on here in SL, here in what we try to do?
    Stim Morane: yes, in sl
    Mickorod Renard: it reminds me of temptation
    Pila Mulligan: and rl
    Calvino Rabeni: But might be interrupted in some way, is that what you suggest?
    Gaya Ethaniel nods.
    Stim Morane: think about it this way ... the mind is always running, positing, imputing, remembering, posing
    Timbo Quan: Is it a case that people don't like what they are or just want to be something they are not?
    Stim Morane: all of this boxes you in, so much so that it falsifies.
    Stim Morane: Tim, there are many cases ...
    Stim Morane: but even the more positive ones are still disconnected from what I was trying to point out via the breathing homework
    Stim Morane: see?
    Pila Mulligan: the extended breathing/stopping exercise let us shed some haste
    Stim Morane: yes, that too
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Mickorod Renard: yea, the 9 seconds helps too
    Gaya Ethaniel: From my limited readings ... I hadn't come across looking into 'aliveness' while meditating.
    Stim Morane: sure, same point ultimately
    Timbo Quan: a case or trying to disconnect the 'fake' self then?
    Stim Morane: Gaya, it's just an emphasis I made up years ago to reflect some perspectives that come out of Taoist practice
    Pila Mulligan: life :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: It really is a good one ... :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I found the excercize quite significant... a real settling, even though it has come also with some sadness
    Stim Morane: Tim, I'm probably making a muddle here, half-addressing each of several questions
    Stim Morane: sorry
    Stim Morane: Yes Eliza, i expected that
    Stim Morane: is the sadness still present?
    Eliza Madrigal: sure
    Timbo Quan: no thats ok - for me at least understanding is never an easy path even uner perfect conditions
    Pila Mulligan: muddle maybe but timely emphasis on balancing mental stuff vs everything else
    Eliza Madrigal: like team members... sadness and surrender... but somehow it is fine
    Stim Morane: Eliza, if you did the practice a couple more times, perhaps with a bit more fine-tuning, it would perhaps intensify the sadness, then possibly release it
    Stim Morane: when we connect with aspects of ourselves that have been neglected, we feel sad
    Stim Morane: but this can also be satisfied and released
    Eliza Madrigal: I've gone back to sort of versions of it... and yes I definitely will repeat it again
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, yes that's accurate
    Stim Morane: I should discuss it with you a bit
    Mickorod Renard: is the sadness associated with the feeling of time lost in being so ,,,erm,,not aware?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Or aspects we didn't respect as much as they deserve ... I think.
    Pila Mulligan: compassion for human suffering part can feel sorrowful, also
    Stim Morane: childhood freshness lost, youth lost, energy lost, opportunities, etc
    Stim Morane: and compassion for the human situation too, yes
    Mickorod Renard: I feel I have felt that sadness too
    Stim Morane: some indigenous peoples' traditions would call it "soul retrieval"
    Stim Morane: we need to do some of that ...
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm
    Stim Morane: But it is important to be careful ..
    Stim Morane: you can be overwhelmed by these exposures to issues that have been neglected, and regards to whichd we may have some mixed feelings
    Stim Morane: even a simple exercise like this can be traumatic for some ...
    Eliza Madrigal: I can see how it would be. With the sadness has also come a real sense of release though... but it is like an ongoing process...
    Eliza Madrigal: moreso than one excercize.
    Stim Morane: part of the problem is that all practices that open us up to something real also bring out stuff that is then immediately grabbed by the more
    ordinary self and its emotional habits.
    Stim Morane: this then triggers "reactions" that are not, strictly speaking, intrinsic to the "living being" side
    Calvino Rabeni: some courage seems needed
    Stim Morane: yes, courage and subtlety in execution
    Mickorod Renard: I have also tried to suppress some elation, from a new realisation, that I feel that it may create an ego that should not be present
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Stim Morane: if we push too far, we drown
    Gaya Ethaniel: I liked the exercise a lot ... but felt reluctant to do it again soon after, held back a bit.
    Stim Morane: Mick, you have felt elated since last week?
    Stim Morane: sure, Gaya?
    Mickorod Renard: aat least once
    Stim Morane: :)
    Stim Morane: well I'm glad.
    Eliza Madrigal: It would sound funny to say I'm happy about the sadness but... prob accurate :) (end story-hah)
    Stim Morane: conduct your victories as ... subtle victories
    Gaya Ethaniel: I wanted to do it again but decided not to. Though ... not sure if that was a missed opportunity or not :)
    Stim Morane: it makes sense to feel happy about contacting genuine feeling, includingn sad feeling, ELiza
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Stim Morane: no need to hurry, Gaya. I did list it as a one-time thing.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok :)
    Stim Morane: But imagine .. going through life in that more exposed, raw, feeling, energized, tragic, grounded, simple, silent way
    Dao Yheng: How quickly would you reccomend repeating Stim? I found this exercise had a really long tail
    Stim Morane: a month then, Dao
    Gaya Ethaniel: In my experience, real sadness feels as powerful as other strong emotions. It's not draining.
    Stim Morane: real sadness is real
    Stim Morane: anything real is alive, enlivening
    Stim Morane: even tragedy
    Calvino Rabeni: It helps me to think of myself, of others, not as some kind of damaged ego struggling forward, but as something much fuller
    Mickorod Renard: I didnt even do the xercise,,but I think I am getting there through other ways
    Stim Morane: but in my muddled capacity as a teacher of contemplation, I use aliveness, reality on that level, to introduce other things that
    are very hard to notice usually
    Stim Morane: so it's a place, a level, in its own right, and also a door
    Gaya Ethaniel grabs the door handle :P
    Stim Morane: wait, don't open yet!
    Stim Morane: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Stim Morane: too late
    Gaya Ethaniel: :D
    Stim Morane: :)
    Pila Mulligan: alive: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Hawaii_Eddie_Aikau_competition_surf.jpg
    Pila Mulligan: this was taken a few days ago in Hawai`i
    Stim Morane: thanks, Pila
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Stim Morane: I was showing that picture to my wife yesterday
    Stim Morane: i told her she should take up that sport
    Pila Mulligan: :) it thrills
    Pila Mulligan: even just seeing it
    Gaya Ethaniel: What did she say?
    Stim Morane: that's what she said
    Stim Morane: :)
    Mickorod Renard: you have a fine figure Pila
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah :)
    Stim Morane: so ... shall we drop all the heavy stuff and talk about shopping?
    Gaya Ethaniel knows Stim takes shopping seriously.
    Timbo Quan: mind goes blank at the thought ...... shopping ....
    Stim Morane: shopping is wonderful
    Dao Yheng: ooh, shopping is a heavy topic for me!
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    Mickorod Renard: do you use it to practice against temptation Stim?
    Stim Morane: well, perhaps another topic then
    Stim Morane: I use shopping to be with my wife
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: ;)
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Learn from the master :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Most men look so glum when they are out with Mrs on shopping trips.
    Stim Morane: that's her
    Stim Morane: men have much to learn
    Timbo Quan: blank is the word you are looking for Gaya
    Stim Morane: after the first ten years or so of meditation training with my tibetan teachers, I really got into shopping
    Gaya Ethaniel: ^^;;;
    Stim Morane: it's like being turned loose in a mandala
    Eliza Madrigal is not friendly toward malls but working on it.. maybe that will help!
    Stim Morane: you can look at everything, forget about business, see the world afresh
    Gaya Ethaniel: So ... where do you find flame of widsom in shopping mall mandalas ... Stim?
    Stim Morane: anyway, I'm not trying to sell it to the guys yet
    Pila Mulligan: kind of like hunting/gathering in the modern age?
    Stim Morane: everywhere, Gaya
    Stim Morane: Yes, Pila
    Gaya Ethaniel ponders.
    Stim Morane: that's what it is, exactly
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Stim Morane: we have to work with what we have, where we are
    Stim Morane: it's nature, turned into nature as malls
    Stim Morane: still nature
    Calvino Rabeni: I figure if I learn "shopping" then "airports" will be a piece of cake.
    Stim Morane: airports are a bit limited ...
    Stim Morane: :)
    Dao Yheng: Hmm, I do like stores, I just don't like shopping
    Stim Morane: ok, enuf of my silliness.
    Stim Morane: why, Dao?
    Dao Yheng: shopping means having to pick something
    Stim Morane: ah, that's the problem
    Gaya Ethaniel nods. I like shopping when I don't have things to buy/look for.
    Stim Morane: I don't ever have that in mind
    Stim Morane: shopping, not shopping for
    Dao Yheng: if I don't have to pick anything, then I do like visiting stores!
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah that I like
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Stim Morane: this is the same point as the breathing exercise
    Eliza Madrigal is thrilled for the sidetrack... timely tips :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Aurora
    Timbo Quan: A bit like looking out of a train window then - seeing what comes by
    Mickorod Renard: I must admit to enjoying people watching..my wife just says I am a letch
    Stim Morane: :)
    Pila Mulligan: ... maybe peace as a discussion topic? ... it is timely in the sense of the Nobel Prize ceremony and our recent depth through breathing/stillness exercise
    Stim Morane: ok
    Gaya Ethaniel: [14:36] Stim Morane: this is the same point as the breathing exercise -- in what sense?
    Dao Yheng: Hmm, Ok, I'll try shopping without trying to pick anything next time
    Stim Morane: it's your world, Dao ...
    Stim Morane: please go ahead, Pila
    Pila Mulligan: well, I think the reports reflect an ehanced sense of personal peace
    Pila Mulligan: things got mellow
    Stim Morane: yes
    Pila Mulligan: after doing it
    Pila Mulligan: how to translate that into the communiyt?
    Stim Morane: as Eliza pointed out, this could be alloyed with other feelings too
    Pila Mulligan: transfer .. whatevers
    Stim Morane: good q, Pila
    Stim Morane: answers?
    Mickorod Renard: which community?
    Pila Mulligan: any
    Pila Mulligan: SL rl world
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well, a friend recently commented me being laid back ... she said she may try out meditation in the New Year :)
    Stim Morane: :0
    Gaya Ethaniel: on me*
    Stim Morane: it has various effects on people
    Mickorod Renard: I see a great feeling for peace, yet as I look at world affairs I see things like over population and under resourses,,I think its closer to war
    Stim Morane: can we be at peace even in the face of that possibility?
    Stim Morane: Hi Agatha
    Timbo Quan: peace with ourselves perhaps
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello
    Stim Morane: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: What does it mean to be at peace though ...
    Pila Mulligan: peace with ourselves makes peace with everyone else easier
    Aurora Kitaj: Hello everyone, sorry was rezzing and have only just fully arrived
    Gaya Ethaniel: Accept, surrender ... then it is possible.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Agatha, Aurora
    Mickorod Renard: I rearely watch tv these days,,but seeing starving children in somalia doesnt help me feel good
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Eliza :)
    Pila Mulligan: compassion for the human condition was mentioned earlier
    Stim Morane: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: There is something to be said for learning not to turn away
    Stim Morane: Peace of a certain sort is not inconsistent with the recognition of tragedy
    Gaya Ethaniel: Of course I don't mean no actions ...
    Stim Morane: yes, Eliza,
    Gaya Ethaniel: This kind of ties into a question I've been turning over in mind recently ...
    Mickorod Renard: also, I know what animal I would become if my family was threatened by a crisis
    Stim Morane: ah
    Timbo Quan: I suspect peace on a larger scale is more difficult with the lack of 'equilibrium' between peoples
    Stim Morane: yes
    Stim Morane: we must start with ourselves ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: When is good to struggle ... with oneself ...?
    Stim Morane: this is a tricky q, Gaya
    Pila Mulligan: when is karma :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I remember clearly what you said about will power coming out naturally.
    Stim Morane: "struggle" is a word that would have to be replaced by other terms that reflect what you're thinking of, but put that in the context of other possibilities
    Gaya Ethaniel: Making efforts?
    Stim Morane: this is a chat we'll have another time
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok
    Mickorod Renard: ok
    Stim Morane: "effort" is the same kind of word
    Bloody Mary whispers: Courtesy of Club Elite
    Gaya Ethaniel: Just that ... one is not supposed to wait around for will power to just emerge ... I don't think.
    Stim Morane: this is why I am so interested in finding ourselves as living beings
    Calvino Rabeni: We have no word for "jihad" - perhaps it is just as well ?
    Stim Morane: it gives us the basis for making distinctions that are not available to the ordinary sense of self
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok
    Stim Morane: yes, Calvino.
    Mickorod Renard: I guess we must live in the personal world that we find ourselves in,,not some imaginary one
    Eliza Madrigal: levels of subtlety, Stim?
    Timbo Quan: mmm thats not what Gaya tells me ....
    Stim Morane: the word in a traditional context also meant "coming to terms with your own failings and dealing with them in a proper way"
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Stim Morane: levels of subtlety, perhaps, Eliza, but also just things that are quite outside the view of the ordinary self
    Stim Morane: the ordinary sense of self has little connection to what you are, where you are, what your resources are, appreciative capacities, etc
    Stim Morane: it cannot even settle down
    Stim Morane: it cannot see
    Stim Morane: everything is packaged
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think I tried to run before I could crawl just then heheheh
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, yes
    Mickorod Renard: is it like a runnaway train?
    Stim Morane: yes, I use that image a lot, Mick
    Stim Morane: we can't get off the train
    Stim Morane: we don't see that we have gotten on a train
    Stim Morane: or where it's taking us
    Stim Morane: we just get dumped somewhere
    Stim Morane: over and over
    Stim Morane: this is not life
    Calvino Rabeni: Nor get out of the shopping mall - choosing those packages seems compulsory
    Stim Morane: ?
    Stim Morane: sorry, yes, Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Must ... choose
    Stim Morane: so ... we have a couple minutes left. I would like to assign your next homework:
    Stim Morane: your next homework is to consider what your homework should be, based on what we're saying and what you may have experienced with the last one.
    Stim Morane: suggestions?
    Mickorod Renard: I must still experience the last one
    Stim Morane: OK, Mick.
    Gaya Ethaniel: If I come up with something it'd be something for me to do ... won't fit the group I fear.
    Stim Morane: yes, Gaya
    Stim Morane: I agree
    Stim Morane: but any ideas that are not too private may be stimulating for others too
    Calvino Rabeni: For myself, I think something about choices would be appropriate
    Eliza Madrigal: shopping :? )
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok
    Stim Morane: :)
    Mickorod Renard: I was thinking of getting off the train,,but had thismorning thought it was a runnaway horse
    Stim Morane: choices is a good topic
    Calvino Rabeni: And somehow, "will"
    Eliza Madrigal: There is a line at the end of a Rumi poem.. says "You have within you a deciding force that knows what to choose and what to turn from"
    Calvino Rabeni: (for me, that is, not recommending it generally)
    Stim Morane: So Calvino, you are pointing our that we don't really "choose" in any awake, active sense?
    Stim Morane: out that
    Mickorod Renard: but as I am struggling with being a control freak I was trying hard not to control it
    Calvino Rabeni: I think so yes
    Stim Morane: good topic
    Stim Morane: but add to it a direct sense of what you are, not just ideas or idealistic notions
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think making an active choice is different from fire-fighting control ...
    Stim Morane: uh huh
    Calvino Rabeni: I hear that, stim
    Eliza Madrigal nods... locating a sense of definiteness?
    Stim Morane: we may powerfully exercise our freedom to truly choose by ... taking a nap.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Trying to control something that feels tiring often involve things that can't be controlled to begin with for me.
    Dao Yheng: I have been already working with the napping homework a lot
    Gaya Ethaniel: So ... perhaps, accept this fact is an active choice ... for example.
    Eliza Madrigal smiles at Dao
    Gaya Ethaniel: napping? :)
    Stim Morane: several threads but good re all
    Stim Morane: yes, Gaya ... at least don't be led by habit and propaganda
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok
    Stim Morane: see what influences you are exposed to, and judiciously select
    Stim Morane: release, accept, etc
    Timbo Quan: external or internal influences?
    Stim Morane: the ord sense of self cannot do those things because it is plastic
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok ... it's hard but I can see a bit what influences are around me ... more.
    Stim Morane: all, Tim
    Timbo Quan: ok
    Stim Morane: i mean plastic in the fixed sense
    Stim Morane: we are swimming in conditioning influences, and in utter freedom too.
    Mickorod Renard: I am lucky at the moment that where I work I find I am under least pressure,,and to see others under pressure is quite amusing
    Stim Morane: :)
    Stim Morane: that is lucky, and temporary
    Mickorod Renard: sort of like a permanent 9 second
    Stim Morane: :)
    Timbo Quan: pressure never fun - can be quiet subtle
    Stim Morane: well ... anyway, I look forward to hearing what you chose, or what you found in it.
    Mickorod Renard: I think some of that is due to a perspective that I have learnt to some extent here
    Gaya Ethaniel: So make a choice and do the homework before next week?
    Stim Morane: Yes, I hope we can find ways to negotiate with unnecessary pressure, Tim
    Stim Morane: Yes, Gaya. Otherwise,
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok
    Timbo Quan: yes
    Stim Morane: see the influnces you are exposed to, and the fact of freedom from them all too.
    Stim Morane: influences
    Stim Morane: this point is inside the breathing exercise from last week.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok ...
    Mickorod Renard: ok
    Stim Morane: Thanks, everyone!
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks, Stim :) Hope you choose to take a nap now :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you :)
    Timbo Quan: thanks Stim
    Pila Mulligan: thank you Stim
    Mickorod Renard: thankyou Stim
    Stim Morane: I would like to take a nap, but am conditioned to think that I must go and lead a meditation here
    Stim Morane: :)
    Mickorod Renard: Scath is quiet
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: thank you Stim, good night!
    Stim Morane: Bye!
    Mickorod Renard: nite nite scath
    Timbo Quan: night all
    Pila Mulligan: bye
    Dao Yheng: good night all !
    Scathach Rhiadra: good night all:)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye all.
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye everyone :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye :)

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