2009.04.09 - Workshop 08

The following is a transcript of the workshop from April 9th 2009

  Adams Dubrovna: Hello Scath, Pila :)
  Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Adams, Pila
  Pila Mulligan: greetings
  Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim
  Stim Morane: Hi Scacach, Adams, Pila
  Stim Morane: *Scathach
  Adams Dubrovna: Hi Stim. I hope you won't be offended if I just park my avatar here and go afk. I can't be
  here but don't want to miss it
  Stim Morane: Sure
  Pila Mulligan: hi Pema
  Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema
  Pila Mulligan: hi genesis
  genesis Zhangsun: Hi Pila
  Stim Morane: Hi Pema
  genesis Zhangsun: Hi everyone
  Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Gen, Fefonz, Storm
  Pema Pera: hi everybody!
  Stim Morane: Hi gen, Fefonz, Storm
  Fefonz Quan: Aurel, if you turn around and come inside you see us on teh sofas
  Pila Mulligan: hi Fefonz and Storm
  Storm Nordwind: Hi everybody
  Fefonz Quan: Hello everybody! Happy Passover :)
  Pila Mulligan: Happy Passover Fefonz
  Scathach Rhiadra: Happy Passover:)
  Pila Mulligan: hi aurel
  aurel Miles: Hi Pia
  Stim Morane: Hi Aurel
  Wester Kiranov: hi everybody
  aurel Miles: Hi Stim
  Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wester, Aurel
  Stim Morane: Wester!
  aurel Miles: Hi everybody
  Pila Mulligan: hi Wester
  genesis Zhangsun: Hi Stim!
  Stim Morane: Hi gen
  Pila Mulligan: is that Santa CLaus on the rof?
  Stim Morane: OK ... time to start
  Stim Morane: Last week we started a new series on an experimental use of Buddhist Ethics, specifically the
  precepts not to lie, steal, kill, or become (too) intoxicated. We’re skipping the precept about improper
  sex, since it’s unnecessary for our present purposes. The main points can be gleaned from the other precepts.
  Stim Morane: (Sorry)
  Stim Morane: So we started with homework concerning “no lies”. As an extra-credit assignment, I mentioned
  related precepts against frivolous or inappropriate or excessive speech. But let’s concentrate on the
  “truth” issue first.
  Stim Morane: A couple of extra features: I suggested that you make a formal commitment to this precept
  for one week, and that you also renew the commitment daily. Later in our chat today we might discuss these
  two points, why they’re useful etc.
  Stim Morane: You may not have noticed much this past week. Possibly you went through the whole week without
  any homework-related issue coming up at all. But in general I think it's unlikely that you would have many
  issues come up around the homework, and it's also unlikely that you would have none whatsoever. In my
  experience people typically notice one small or subtle point that triggered an alarm. But even a single
  case or finding can be valuable.
  Stim Morane: So … do you have anything to report?
  Stim Morane: :)
  Storm Nordwind wonders whether witholding information to the group fits in! >;^)
  Stim Morane: Withholding is good. It means I get to have lunch.
  Fefonz Quan: :_) thought so too. if everybody shuld say yes/no at least, it might make it more interesting:)
  Storm Nordwind: You first Fef
  Fefonz Quan: should*
  Fefonz Quan: yes
  Wester Kiranov: the main thing i found, was that i tend to evade difficult encounters rather than come to a
  point where lying would be "necessary"
  Stim Morane: do you see any consequences to that approach which relate to our emphasis here?
  Wester Kiranov: (thinking)
  Stim Morane: no hurry
  Stim Morane: What we are committing to in this new series are various related ethical stances, but what we
  are most interested in in some sense are our lapses. So when we make a mistake, we need to see why that
  happened. What exactly happened? Who are we being at that moment? What influenced us? Why? Insight in these
  areas is going to be very helpful.
  Stim Morane: Was the homework not framed in a way that is likely to produce findings?
  Wester Kiranov: I think in the end evading people or lying to them are just different styles of being
  untruthful. but it does help to have an idea what your own style is, so you know where to look.
  Stim Morane: Yes. That is our concern here.
  genesis Zhangsun: perhaps this is beside the point but what is truthfulness
  Fefonz Quan: yes, my tactic is giving a truthful answer, bu tto a totally different question than asked
  genesis Zhangsun: :)
  Stim Morane: We might have a way of being truthful that still isn't very awake to the larger issues.
  Stim Morane: :)
  Stim Morane: Fefonz, remind me not to have a conversation with you when I'm sleepy
  Fefonz Quan: but mostly i have no reasons to lie...
  Stim Morane: OK
  genesis Zhangsun: the other person may not be able to appreciate the truth even if you believe you are being
  truthful
  Stim Morane: That might be the case for everyone here. I'm not sure ..
  Pila Mulligan: I had an uncomfortable situation by speaking too soon, and therefore inaccurately :)
  Stim Morane: Basically what's really involved in this new series is seeing your own mind and nature, as well
  as seeing the ways in which you depart from the latter.
  Pila Mulligan: not an intentional fib, but an error in truth
  genesis Zhangsun: I could understand why it might be difficult to share about this
  Stim Morane: It's just using ethics to "find the OX" (as in the Zen Ox-herding pictures)
  Stim Morane: Yes, it might be tricky. We may need some time to get into this approach.
  Fefonz Quan: in fact most of the week the exercise was not on my mind. One of the clear cses it came up,
  was after i gave some informatin that i could hide, but decided to share anyhow
  genesis Zhangsun: well to be fair it is probably one of the most difficult things to admit to others how you
  lie to yourself
  genesis Zhangsun: what kind of lies you tell
  Stim Morane: Yes, good point, gen.
  Fefonz Quan: but that's so not blacj and white issue
  Stim Morane: And Fefonz, I should have emphasized the point about renewing the commitment each day
  Fefonz Quan: black*
  Fefonz Quan: no, don't blame yourself Stim :)
  Stim Morane: the renewal is part of what sharpens our appreciation of the issue, and the larger issues hiding
  inside it
  Wester Kiranov: i found it pretty interesting how I would try to convince myself that some untruth didn't really
  count as such
  Stim Morane: Yes, Wester. This counts.
  Pila Mulligan: the more honest you are with yourself, the more at ease you become with yourself, it seems
  Stim Morane: there is a big different between being honest in the ordinary sense, and making a commitment,
  renewed daily, to the truth.
  Fefonz Quan: but some times indeed the truth has many levels/layers, and you just choose one of tehm
  Stim Morane: yes
  Stim Morane: Well, my idea was this:
  Stim Morane: Formal versions of meditation practice help people see their own minds, but this kind of practice
  takes place in a rather artificial context. The approach we are following, being in ordinary life, pressed by
  various influences, circumstances, environments or contexts to fit in better or to get what you want or seem
  impressive, etc., presses us to step away from reality (lie). So there is an opportunity here to see the mind
  in ways that ordinary formal practice isn't so conducive to.
  Fefonz Quan: depending on the circumstances. like public discussions sometimes demand less details than provate
  ones, etc.
  Storm Nordwind: /In my case there was a situation where (to cut a long story short) I attached importance and
  reality to something that did not deserve it. That skewed my priorities and thus I tried to control where I did
  not need to. It pointed to self-grasping and a lack of faith. I could almost watch impassively the mental
  wriggling to juggle something that would become ethically acceptable.
  Stim Morane: Yes, good example, Storm
  Stim Morane: it's just meditation in action
  Stim Morane: that's my emphasis here
  Stim Morane: It can be more effective than sitting practice
  Stim Morane: There are active stressors which make us lie, and there are also neutral-seeming contexts where we
  leave the truth because of passive draft. It just doesn't seem to matter, so we get sloppy ... or we don't
  really check.
  aurel Miles: so lying.
  Stim Morane: *drift
  Wester Kiranov: but at some level you always know if you are being truthful or not
  aurel Miles: actually - i don't agree
  Stim Morane: yes, perhaps, Wester. But that's a tricky point. So I see Aurel's concern too.
  Stim Morane: Note that we don't actually know what is true, so this commitment to telling the truth is not a
  simple matter like giving your correct age when someone asks you. For a tradition that talk so much about false
  views, and the extent to which our whole existence is pervaded by and defined by false views, a tissue of lies
  or misapprehensions... we are a false view, a kind of walking false view.
  Fefonz Quan: i don';t agree with wester too
  aurel Miles: i mean, have you ever noticed yourself saying something and you don't think it's really true but
  it turns out to be exactly true?
  aurel Miles: that happens to me quite a lot
  Fefonz Quan: in fact telling all teh truth is mostly impossible
  genesis Zhangsun: our lives are fiction
  genesis Zhangsun: I would agree that we are walking lies
  genesis Zhangsun: not to sound too dark :)
  Stim Morane: on the level of basic information, like giving your correct age when asked, we probably know.
  But with respect to deeper matters, do we?
  aurel Miles: and at the same time -
  Wester Kiranov: i meant - true in such a way as matters to us, not absolutely or factually true
  Stim Morane: The whole point of this series is to start with simple stuff on the "fact" level, and go from
  there to more subtle matters.
  Stim Morane: Yes, I understood, Wester.
  Stim Morane: Anyway, we've hardly started.
  Pema Pera: I can see Wester's point -- perhaps not immediately, but afterwards we often do recognize that
  there was something bugging us
  Stim Morane: So it will take a while to get orientted.
  aurel Miles: i was part of a strike once - as a Teaching assitant
  Stim Morane: Yes, with respect to things we do know about to some extent, we have a "conscience".
  aurel Miles: and i told everyone i would not cross the picket line
  aurel Miles: but one of my very important classes was being held
  aurel Miles: off campus
  aurel Miles: i knew i was lying when i said i would not cross the picket line
  aurel Miles: because i had every intention of going to that class
  aurel Miles: but those words made their own reality
  aurel Miles: and i found myself standing on the subway platform
  aurel Miles: completely unable to get on the train
  Stim Morane: interesting
  aurel Miles: i couldn't force myself
  aurel Miles: i lied
  aurel Miles: but in the end
  aurel Miles: the lie made itself true
  Stim Morane: Yes
  Pila Mulligan: :)
  Stim Morane: speech is powerful
  Stim Morane: for good or ill
  Fefonz Quan: why is our lives a fiction Gen?
  genesis Zhangsun: can/t answer that right now one sec
  Stim Morane: Here's one answer: We consolidate around a false self and a false reality context for that self.
  In that sense, we are a walking fiction. The true reality is not just facts that are passed on accurately,
  but more important and subtle dimensions of being.
  Fefonz Quan: well, for that i would say two things:
  Fefonz Quan: we don't know it's true (me at least), and if it is, what does other lies matter? lets play the
  game as best as we can
  Stim Morane: OK
  Stim Morane: So can you say a little more about the game?
  Fefonz Quan: if we are in a fiction movie/play, sometimes the interesting movies are the ones with plots and
  intruigues
  Stim Morane: yes
  aurel Miles: interesting to watch - not so great to live
  Fefonz Quan: so why not making this movie interesting? it's just a movie after all
  Stim Morane: if you retain your reality sense, and there are no bad consequences for others ...
  Fefonz Quan: (yes, surely i know for myself a certain level of lying makes me unhappy...but that;s another
  issue)
  Stim Morane: OK
  Stim Morane: lying is not playing. You are making a good distinction here.
  aurel Miles: unless it is really obvious lying
  aurel Miles: then it's playing
  Wester Kiranov: then it's not really lying
  Fefonz Quan: "it is not a lie if you believe it" - Master George Constanza
  aurel Miles: which is interesting - cause it is lying
  Eliza Madrigal sneaks in quietly
  Stim Morane: So Fefonz, is this type of play something you've tried in a fairly vigorous, exploratory way?
  Eliza Madrigal: (sorry, was quite a while ago...mistake)
  Pila Mulligan: hi Eliza
  Stim Morane: It's not a lie if you believe it, but it still can be a problem for you. That's where the
  contemplative traditions come in.
  Fefonz Quan: well not so much stim, because i find it hard to believe that our life is a fiction
  Eliza Madrigal: :) (now quiet) :)
  Stim Morane: :)
  Stim Morane: back to truth
  Stim Morane: OK, well, we can explore this more for a while, perhaps.
  Stim Morane: What about the other, related commitment of avoiding frivolous or unnecessary or excessive speech?
  Stim Morane: Any takers on that?
  Pila Mulligan: :)
  Fefonz Quan: (hard to maintain while in PaB sessions :))
  Pila Mulligan: hasty speech, for sure
  Pila Mulligan: mea culpa
  Stim Morane: I just ran a 9 day retreat where many people were spending more time and energy on talking than
  on practicing.
  Stim Morane: It bugged me.
  Stim Morane: :)
  Eliza Madrigal: :) yes, difficult to know what is frivolous, when sometimes it is the frivolous which breaks
  down seriousness and allows deeper discussion
  Stim Morane: yes, again, play can be helpful.
  Stim Morane: So we shouldn't have a prohibition against that!
  Stim Morane: It's important to be able to tell the difference.
  Scathach Rhiadra: is it not more a prohibition against idle chatter, gossip?
  Stim Morane: Scathach, there are several related precepts of this sort.
  Stim Morane: The one you mention in a classical case.
  Stim Morane: But there are others, including the ones I listed. I'll take any of these as counting here.
  Stim Morane: The point is that this sort of speech, excluding the creative play side which we want to keep,
  tends to divert us from what we really are.
  Stim Morane: Perhaps this is easier to see if we push it a bit, as Fefonz suggested.
  Stim Morane: We may need a new round of homework based on his idea.
  Fefonz Quan: yes, throwing around a big clutter of words in order to hide yourself is a known intelectual
  practice
  Stim Morane: :)
  Stim Morane: It's a profession.
  Wester Kiranov: :)
  aurel Miles: one of my professors once told me i didn't do it enough
  Stim Morane: :)
  aurel Miles: he said "anybody could read this" go back and use the terminology.
  aurel Miles: i felt something snap.
  Stim Morane: wow
  Fefonz Quan: you shouldn't hit him with the big stick Aurel!
  aurel Miles: it was a film studies professor - as a discipline, there are some self-esteem issues there.
  Stim Morane: I see.
  aurel Miles: still - it bothered me
  aurel Miles: and i think about it a lot because in academic writing we do use specific language
  aurel Miles: and it is distancing for the average guy
  aurel Miles: and it is meant to be
  Stim Morane: turf protection
  aurel Miles: you think?
  Stim Morane: sometimes, yes
  Wester Kiranov: sometimes it is necessary for precision though
  aurel Miles: true
  Stim Morane: yes, that's possible too
  aurel Miles: nothing says liminal like liminal
  Stim Morane: :)
  aurel Miles: but spellcheck doesn't recognize it
  aurel Miles: but that flabby language
  aurel Miles: surely we get carried away with that
  aurel Miles: and it gets to be like those people who put on weight
  aurel Miles: in order to be invisible
  Pila Mulligan: :)
  aurel Miles: (i used to do that)
  Pila Mulligan: that's poetic, aurel
  aurel Miles: thanks Pila i should also mention, it is not a good strategy
  aurel Miles: but it is one i notice with a lot of academics who just want to keep their heads down and study
  Stim Morane: OK ... well, I will just make the general point that a commitment to truth, renewed and bolstered
  by related commitments to conservation and correct use of speech in other ways, helps up become increasingly
  focused on larger issues of reality and its evocation.
  Stim Morane: *us. It is this sort of possibility that motivates my use of Buddhist Ethics.
  Stim Morane: Going forward, what do you think we should try next? I am still exploring what is possible in
  this context, and am open to suggestions from all of you.
  Wester Kiranov: i would actually like to zoom in a bit on the distinction between play and frivolity
  Stim Morane: OK, good. How would you start?
  Scathach Rhiadra: we could keep with truth/ speech for another week, maybe better understanding what is
  involved?
  Wester Kiranov: ummm.. pay more attention to when you're playful
  Fefonz Quan: and when you play fool,,,
  Wester Kiranov: try to stay playful but not frivolous, and then see if it zooms off into frivloity, and how
  that happens
  Stim Morane: Yes, those are great ideas.
  Stim Morane: Expressing your nature through play is different from a giddy loss of connection with that
  nature.
  Stim Morane: But seeing the demarcation line requires actual experimentation.
  Stim Morane: A worthy project
  Stim Morane: Well, I will talk a bit next time about how a contemplative sees some of the issues we've
  mentioned here so far.
  Stim Morane: That just leaves the question of what you would like to try for homework.
  Stim Morane: Hopefully something fun but not likely to land you in jail.
  Stim Morane: Would you like to make your own, personally-determined project? Some could continue on
  truth, others on play vs frivolity?
  Pila Mulligan: ... and both, even
  Eliza Madrigal: yes
  Eliza Madrigal: (Scath, sorry to be wishy-washy, but will you add me back into the group?
  I'm sure I'd like to participate)
  Scathach Rhiadra: ok Eliza:)
  Storm Nordwind learns from others doing the same project. Can we stay as a cohort?
  Eliza Madrigal: Thanks
  Wester Kiranov: I was thinking something like that, storm
  Stim Morane: OK, well it's truth, on various levels, plus the other speech-related injunctions,
  then.
  Stim Morane: If you start each day with an explicit commitment to attending to these areas,
  you will probably notice much more than would otherwise be possible.
  Stim Morane: Other closing comments or issues?
  Storm Nordwind: Can I just check: with Scathach put the transcript of this on the Wiki? If so I can
  put a pointer to the Wiki on the Webpage
  Storm Nordwind: *will
  Scathach Rhiadra: yes I have put all the other ones on it already
  Stim Morane: Yes, and thank you, Scathach!
  Storm Nordwind: Great. Thank you so much for that. I'll do the website tomorrow
  Scathach Rhiadra: people need to register as users
  Pila Mulligan: thank you, Stim
  Storm Nordwind: Once again thank you Stim!
  Pema Pera: yes, thank you Stim!
  Stim Morane: Thanks, Pila ... and everyone.
  Scathach Rhiadra: and if I remember from last week, Stim you talked about making the wiki restricted?
  Fefonz Quan: thank you Stim !
  Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Stim, Scath, all
  Adams Dubrovna: Thank you Stim
  Wester Kiranov: Stim, I really appreciate what you're doing here
  genesis Zhangsun: thanks Stim
  aurel Miles: thank you Stim
  Storm Nordwind seconds Wester
  Stim Morane: Scathach, I don't mind either way. It's a matter of what the others prefer.
  Pema Pera: bye everyone
  Stim Morane: Perhaps we can sort this out next time ...?
  Pila Mulligan: bye
  Adams Dubrovna: bye Pema
  Stim Morane: Bye everyone!
  Adams Dubrovna: bye Stim
  Fefonz Quan: Bye all :)
  Wester Kiranov: bye stim, bye all
  Scathach Rhiadra: ok, then the URL is http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
  genesis Zhangsun: thanks so much scathach
  Scathach Rhiadra: ok, good night all, Namasté
  Adams Dubrovna: Yes, thank you Scath
  Storm Nordwind: Thank you for all the hard work with the Wiki Scathach!
  Adams Dubrovna: good night
  Storm Nordwind: Namaste
  Scathach Rhiadra: ha, they are really easy to set up:)
  Storm Nordwind smiles!