2009.09.10 - Workshop 27

The following is a transcript of the workshop fro September 10th 2009.

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Scath and Gaya :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Eliza
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Stim :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Stim :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Dao and Pila :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dao :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Dao, Pila
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pila :)
Pila Mulligan: hi everyone
Stim Morane: Hi Gaya, Scathach, Pila, Dao, Eliza
Dao Yheng: hi all
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Yakuzza :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yakuzza :)
Stim Morane: Hi Yakuzza
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Ara, Almond :)
arabella Ella: hiya everyone hiya stim!
Almond Andel: Hello, all
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Almond and arabella :)
Almond Andel: I'm new here, could I sit in?
Stim Morane: Hi Almond, arabella
Stim Morane: Almond, you are welcome
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Yakuzza, Ara
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick :)
Stim Morane: hi Mick
Almond Andel: thank you
Mickorod Renard: hiya guys
arabella Ella: hiya Mick
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Mick
Mickorod Renard: before you ask Stim,,I have not done much in the way of homework as rl is manic at the moment
Stim Morane: I know the feeling
Mickorod Renard: sorry
Stim Morane: no problem
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Stim Morane: so is the manic nature of rl instructive?
Mickorod Renard: maybe constructive
Stim Morane: an interesting distinction
Mickorod Renard: I have just moved house too,,last weekend,,and am still in boxes
Stim Morane: I see
Gaya Ethaniel: ah :) congratulations Mick.
Stim Morane: the last time I did that, I swore never again
Mickorod Renard: ohh,,its only temp I hope Gaya
Mickorod Renard: but thanks
Stim Morane: *start?
Stim Morane: so ... shall we startL
Mickorod Renard: please
arabella Ella: yes please
Stim Morane: I should note, once again, the submissions by Eliza, Scathach and Gaya ...
Stim Morane: these are on our wiki: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
Stim Morane: thank you very much for taking the trouble to reflect, compose, and post these
Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you for giving me homework Stim :)
Stim Morane: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes, thank you. It is helpful to do so
Stim Morane: it's nice of you to see it in a positive light
Stim Morane: many people hate homework
Gaya Ethaniel: It gives a bit of structure which is nice :)
Stim Morane: so would anyone like to comment on the new wiki pieces?
Dao Yheng: I didn't find a way to post --
Stim Morane: Oh, sorry to hear that, Dao
Dao Yheng: is there an instruction page?
Gaya Ethaniel: I can help you after Dao if you'd like :)
Dao Yheng: thanks! that would be great!
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, I think I put basic instructions there?
Gaya Ethaniel: yw :)
Stim Morane: Actually, if there's a simple answer, I would like to hear it now.
Scathach Rhiadra: to posting?
Stim Morane: yes, sorry
Stim Morane: for instance, i assume registering is necessary?
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, but you are already registeded Stim, and Dao
Stim Morane: :)
Dao Yheng: the instructions are probably there, I just missed it
Stim Morane: that's good to know ... I'm losing track of these wikis, etc.
Scathach Rhiadra: I can add you into the menu options giving a place for posting pages
Stim Morane: OK, well we can find out about this later then ...
Dao Yheng: k, thanks!
Mickorod Renard: if I might just contribute something now?
Stim Morane: sure, Mick
Mickorod Renard: ok,,it was a slightly diferent observation I had
Mickorod Renard: I felt like when I got angry I observed something odd
Mickorod Renard: like as though my self was living in a peace,,like a community,,and then when angry that was fragmented
Mickorod Renard: and termoil set in
Mickorod Renard: I felt the harm it did to the structure of that inner community
Mickorod Renard: ok done
Stim Morane: thanks, very apt and interesting
Dao Yheng: that sounds familiar to me, Mickorod
Stim Morane: the same point applies very broadly, to all sorts of things we get caught up in ...
Stim Morane: learning to notice the cost is very important
Stim Morane: I see a similar insight in the pieces on the wiki ... it seems you are all "cluing in"
Stim Morane: meditation training relies on your own capacity for noticing things and feeling what's conducive to harmony etc vs disarray
Stim Morane: Eliza, in a similar vein, perhaps, you mention time delays in several different ways. Would you please say a bit more about this point, so I can be sure I know what is meant?
Dao Yheng: maybe when I'm more at peace, I can include more of the environment as "me" but when I'm upset, everything literally goes to pieces
Gaya Ethaniel nods.
Stim Morane: yes
Dao Yheng: I also liked Eliza's chutes and ladders!
arabella Ella: for me it does not just go to pieces it clouds everything else and is very difficult to get out of
Stim Morane: yes, this is important to note
Stim Morane: there's no way out, apparently
arabella Ella: it is a bit like being swept away by a torrent of emotion I cannot control
Eliza Madrigal: I'll wait just say when.. and thanks Dao :)
arabella Ella: apologies Eliza
Stim Morane: when
Stim Morane: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Ah :) Okay...
Eliza Madrigal: Lately I'm very much atune to an idea of integrating insight through more and more immediacy of experience...
Mickorod Renard: being angry for me is in a niave way , a way at getting my own back on what upset me,,yet in reality its self harm
Mickorod Renard: sorry
Eliza Madrigal: So time delays are something I'm very sensitive to...
Eliza Madrigal: a feeling of missing moments
Eliza Madrigal: and seeing that in delays..the chain begins..
Eliza Madrigal: or that is what it feels like to me.. and more as though I'm watching it
Eliza Madrigal: so I can feel it doesn't have to be that way
Eliza Madrigal: (end)
Stim Morane: so time delays = missed moments?
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Eliza Madrigal: maybe sometims moment to let go, too
Stim Morane: and missed moments are ones that passed without being fully taken in, fully noticed?
Mickorod Renard: Eliza's sounds like what I have experienced during stress
Eliza Madrigal: yes...which I was distanced from
Stim Morane: I see. THanks
Stim Morane: I think we're converging on the basis for the ethics stuff I introduced some time ago ...
Stim Morane: :0
Stim Morane: there's always a "time delay" involved in these matters
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Stim Morane: and Gaya, that wise thief ...
Gaya Ethaniel: :P yes that one ...
Stim Morane: can you introduce us to her?
Gaya Ethaniel: The critical voice ... always telling me I'm not doing it right or should know better.
Stim Morane: oh, I see. HER.
Gaya Ethaniel: I've decided to become more friendly ... determined to become a good friend to her and appreciate her more.
Stim Morane: Excellent.
Stim Morane: You might as well.
Stim Morane: You'll be seeing her for a long time
Gaya Ethaniel: And be also ... a bit firm when she gets out of control ...
Stim Morane: yes, that's the OTHER important point.
Stim Morane: both are needed
Gaya Ethaniel: I suspect ... they never leave ... is that the case Stim?
Stim Morane: yes, it's true
Eliza Madrigal: That doesn't show up for me unless I miss a moment... THEN here comes the judge
Stim Morane: as your practice and insight grow, it could be said that a new sense of presence, higher time, mind etc become seen ... and there is no thief/critic there. But one's ordinary sense of self is always codependent with the thief
Stim Morane: it's not a problem, as long as you do what you're mentioning
Gaya Ethaniel: I didn't take on a 'role' under the criticism which probably is an improvement I'm guessing.
Stim Morane: definitely
Stim Morane: this bears on the after-effects Scathach mentions
Stim Morane: we get sent off on long tangents if we don't see what she's talking about in her wiki piece
Stim Morane: much better for things to be completed instantly, rather than leading on to one thing after another
Stim Morane: so this all seems very relevant
Stim Morane: To push a bit, let me ask you all a question.
Stim Morane: If you had to explain the basic point of codependent arising to some friend, what would you say?
Stim Morane: :)
Dao Yheng: ha ha
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
arabella Ella: ah
Eliza Madrigal: :) That nothing exists or functions independently...everything is made of components
Mickorod Renard: eeek
Stim Morane: uh huh ...
Stim Morane: anything else?
Stim Morane: there's no right answer, I'm just asking ...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
arabella Ella: and the components are all inter linked
Stim Morane: yep
Mickorod Renard: there is always a stimulus?
Eliza Madrigal: including one's self
arabella Ella: nothing is isolated
Stim Morane: uh huh
Eliza Madrigal: so called
Stim Morane: so called?
Stim Morane: on, the self
Stim Morane: *oh
Stim Morane: I see
Stim Morane: yes
Gaya Ethaniel: I will probably start with a relevant example to that particular friend, a particular self I see in her/him.
Gaya Ethaniel: If s/he can't see it ... it would be difficult to explain.
Stim Morane: sounds good. I like that approach, obviously
arabella Ella: sounds great Gaya
Stim Morane: and just as obviously, I like the example of anger
Stim Morane: but others may be better for some people
Stim Morane: anyway, fine answers
Stim Morane: are you still typing, Mick?
Mickorod Renard: no
Dao Yheng: I spent a lot of a sit a couple mornings ago thinking "what was that co-dependent arising thing again?" The answer I could come up with at the time was along the lines of no effort, allowing
Mickorod Renard: nervous twitch
Stim Morane: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I will have to do what you just said Stim tomorrow night :( I'm meeting a friend who's been suffering a lot with anger ... want to help her.
Stim Morane: yes, Dao ... that has to figure somehow.
Stim Morane: good luck, Gaya,
Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you :)
Eliza Madrigal: I've seen through shyness in this way... always thought it was genetic and maybe it is but this has helped
arabella Ella: my focus on anger made me see that anger and frustration can often be interlinked
Stim Morane: yes, that's likely arabella
Stim Morane: we feel thwarted somehow, then get angry, etc etc
arabella Ella: also ... frustration at the waste of energy as a result of the anger
Stim Morane: yes
Gaya Ethaniel nods. Not getting 'my' way ...
arabella Ella: and lack of possibility of moving ahead
Stim Morane: yes
Stim Morane: exactly
arabella Ella nods
Stim Morane: in this country it manifests as road rage
Pila Mulligan: anger, frustration and expectatins are interlinked
arabella Ella: :)
Stim Morane: appropos of your comment, Dao, Pila wrote a very interesting email to the PaB group re wu wei ...
Stim Morane: Pila, would you be willing to summarize the gist of that?
Mickorod Renard: the frustration of not having a positive outcome,,begats anger which compounds the negative
Stim Morane: yes
Pila Mulligan: actually, the email was only sent to you and Pema, Stim
arabella Ella: :)
Stim Morane: sorry to put you on the spot, Pila
Eliza Madrigal: yes just went looking... haha
Stim Morane: I just liked your comments
Stim Morane: oh, ok
Pila Mulligan: in relation to your 'Fruits not Roots' dialogue on wu wei
Pila Mulligan: thanks
Stim Morane: I'm just noting the connection w Dao's comment
Pila Mulligan: my SL connection isverry laggy at the moment, maybe later, please
Stim Morane: the points you raised about yin and yang as lead-ins to wu-wei raise some difficult issues for my little chat here on codependent arising
Pila Mulligan: how so?
Stim Morane: I've basically been saying we don't appreciate things well at all, don't really live very fully and directly
Stim Morane: and that codependent arising can help up break through the ice, the frozen structures of habitual framings
Stim Morane: right?
Pila Mulligan: :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Stim Morane: ok ... but in fact, the very training in seeing everything as codependently given can itself cause problems along the same lines
arabella Ella: problems? why?
Dao Yheng: the hard thing for me about habitual framings is that sometimes it's ALL framings and so I get stuck on trying to overthrow a framing with another framing
Stim Morane: it can turn everything into codependently arising posits.
Stim Morane: yes, Dao, that's part of my point exactly
arabella Ella: ah
Stim Morane: the teaching can become a trap
Pila Mulligan: isn't this an exercise in seeing the interactions of yin and yang at the suprapersonal level then
Stim Morane: and if we fall into that, we don't get a chance to appreciate, for instance, yin and yang
Stim Morane: insight needs to go pretty far to be free of its own side effects
Stim Morane: there is a potential problem here
Stim Morane: just to take your example, Pila, I think many great Indian masters may not have seen yin and yang at all well ...
Stim Morane: too much emphasis on "emptiness" can be a sickness
Pila Mulligan: :)
Stim Morane: am I making sense?
Pila Mulligan: yes
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Stim Morane: we have to be a bit careful here
arabella Ella nods
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm not entirely sure Stim.
Eliza Madrigal: Aren't there 'safeties' built into insight? Meaning... progression depends on comprehension/sight along the way?
Stim Morane: this is one of the reasons why I trained in other traditions than just buddhism ... the chinese indigenous views are also important
Pila Mulligan: Indian duality (shiva-shakti, atman-brahmin) seems less cosmicly profiund than yin-yang
Gaya Ethaniel: If we are being inclusive of all, incl all that arises then would I encounter the problem you mentioned?
Stim Morane: Gaya, insight can break thru the things that disconnect us from being alive
Stim Morane: but it can also be itself a kind of disconnect
Scathach Rhiadra: is it the danger of nihinism you mean?
Stim Morane: we can be so 'insightful' we miss being alive/present
Pila Mulligan: doctrine as crutch?
Scathach Rhiadra: nihilism*
Gaya Ethaniel: So seeing is also doing hence not wu-wei?
Stim Morane: it may be nihilism, or it may just be a disconnect
Stim Morane: seeing needs, eventually, to be life, being ... not seeing something *about* life and being.
Gaya Ethaniel: But ... one needs to see a bit before one can 'be'?
Eliza Madrigal: sure...yes the being present would be the immedicacy ... connecting
Stim Morane: yes, we have to plunge in
Stim Morane: yes, Eliza
arabella Ella: are you implying Stim in simple terms that there are always two sides to a coin ...
Stim Morane: until complete awakeness, yes
Stim Morane: so we just muddle along as best we can ...
arabella Ella: and we must be cautious of not coming out only on one side but appreciating both sides pleasant or not?
Stim Morane: yes, the seeing itself can be a problem
arabella Ella: yes
Stim Morane: real seeing = "seeing nothing" or "seeing just what's present" or "Hi, how are you today!"
Stim Morane: we're just working towards that
Stim Morane: natualness
Stim Morane: naturalness
Stim Morane: hence my interest in Pila's point about wu wei and yin and yang
Stim Morane: natural
arabella Ella: :)
Stim Morane: winding down a bit, shall we try a couple more weeks using text, then seriously decide about using voice?
Dao Yheng: When you get a chance, Pila ... :)
Mickorod Renard: ok
Scathach Rhiadra: ok,
Gaya Ethaniel: ok
Pila Mulligan: from letter -- Wu wei suggests a modest relationship with natural change, an enduring presence in the natural state of things, rather than continuous effort to influence things
Stim Morane: it's a group decision, not one I should make
arabella Ella: ehrm ... i hope the group dont mind this but i think most of us are now accustomed to using voice
Eliza Madrigal: Nice, Pila
Gaya Ethaniel: I will create a googlegroup for WoK - Pila would you forward the email to the group?
Pila Mulligan: laggy, hence bad timeing there :)
Eliza Madrigal: I don't mind... was ready to use voice this week if that was the plan
Dao Yheng: yes, thank you Pila!
arabella Ella: i was ready to use voice today too :)
Mickorod Renard: yes,,I need some wu wei rather than being conditioned to influence everything
Stim Morane: good, arabella. But I still want the group to decide ... I'm already on record as preferring voice over text, while admitting the latter's advantages
Stim Morane: :)
Stim Morane: me too, Mick
arabella Ella: :)
Dao Yheng: I don't mind voice, but just realized that I'll continue to participate via text -- don't have enough time to get home before these sessions start so am doing this from work or a cafe
Stim Morane: that should be fine, Dao
Stim Morane: right, arabella?
arabella Ella: me?
arabella Ella: :)
arabella Ella: i am sure it will
Stim Morane: or anyone familiar with skype
Stim Morane: ok, good
Mickorod Renard: yes me..now
Stim Morane: any questions you have about the topic of codependent arising and its application to life should be articulated and stated, so I can try to address them.
Stim Morane: this is the homework
arabella Ella: my question would be Stim
Mickorod Renard: ok,,so the other bit thats dependant is the situation?
Stim Morane: I'm the question?
Stim Morane: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
arabella Ella: what do we do with the unpleasant feeling of for example anger and the manner in which it engulfs us and overtakes other priorities?
Stim Morane: ok
arabella Ella: :)
Stim Morane: I look forward to lots of othe such questions next time, so I can try to tidy up a bit.
Eliza Madrigal: What about wu-wei questions, since that came up? :)
arabella Ella: (only asked as you said we need to verbalise our questions)
Stim Morane: *other
Stim Morane: sure, wu-wei too ... as long as I don't have to explain how you develop it.
Eliza Madrigal: Okay :)
Stim Morane: I'm trying to avoid that.
Gaya Ethaniel giggles.
Eliza Madrigal: yes I read that
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry ... it's not a laughing matter ...
Mickorod Renard: what is anger?
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Stim
Stim Morane: thanks, everyone. See you next time.
Mickorod Renard: bye Stim
Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you Stim. Enjoy your day :)
arabella Ella: thanks Stim!
Mickorod Renard: thanks
Stim Morane: bye!
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye stim
Scathach Rhiadra: good night Stim, thank you:)
Almond Andel: Thank you
Pila Mulligan: bye
Dao Yheng: thanks everyone ! bye!
Yakuzza Lethecus: good nihgt/day everyone
Stim Morane: you can party now ...
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Scathach Rhiadra: ha:)
Gaya Ethaniel: oh Stim, you ok to be added to googlegroup?
Pila Mulligan must be going
Eliza Madrigal: Bye everyone, thanks
Gaya Ethaniel: he's gone :(
Eliza Madrigal has a cold and is heading back to bed :)
arabella Ella: ah
Eliza Madrigal: Nite
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye everyone :)