2009.10.29 - Workshop 33

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    The following is the transcript of the workshop for October 29th 2009.

    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza, Pila, Scath and Tim :)
    Timbo Quan: hello
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Everyone! Do I get the headset?
    Pila Mulligan: greetings
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello everyone:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello gen :)
    Dao Yheng: Hi all!
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi! So many familiar faces I haven't seen in awhile :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hey Gen:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yakuzza :)
    genesis Zhangsun: goot to see you Gaya, Tarmel, Scathach :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Nice to see you again gen :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hiya everyone :)
    Timbo Quan: hello
    genesis Zhangsun: is this in voice? or text?
    Pila Mulligan: hi Stim
    Eliza Madrigal: yes I haven't opened skypet yet...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Stim :)
    genesis Zhangsun: I heard there was some switching around
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim:)
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Stim!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Stim
    Pila Mulligan: it may be ambiguous at the moment Gen
    Timbo Quan: hello Stim
    Stim Morane: Hi everyone
    Stim Morane: Switching?
    genesis Zhangsun: yes from text to voice and possibly back again?
    Gaya Ethaniel: We are waiting for your decision Stim.
    Stim Morane: I see ... I was wondering if i was missing a call or not
    Stim Morane: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Stim Morane: Well, today we could do either one.
    Pila Mulligan: no, it is your call (a pun)
    Stim Morane: Which do you prefer?
    Stim Morane: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Stim Morane: Shall we just try text then?
    genesis Zhangsun: haha as opposed to "no pun intended"
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: pun intended :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure to text
    Pila Mulligan: text is less n some ways but fine with me
    Stim Morane: OK
    Stim Morane: I guess we'll see a bit of the differences between the two media
    Tarmel Udimo: (sorry folks I am back now and hello to all)
    genesis Zhangsun: oh good then I can multitask ;) (joke)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Tarmel, welcome back
    Stim Morane: thanks to all of you who posted some reflections on the wiki
    Tarmel Udimo: tks
    Stim Morane: and yes, Hi Tarmel!
    Stim Morane: sure gen, go for it!
    Tarmel Udimo: waves
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: wb :)
    Tarmel Udimo: tks my shifts have finally changed so hopefully I can attend more
    Stim Morane: So are we all "natural" today?
    Gaya Ethaniel: In its own way, yes I guess ... :)
    Eliza Madrigal looks around
    Stim Morane: much has been discussed and written about it already
    Stim Morane: my own suggestions have been rather simple and limited in scope, deliberately
    Stim Morane: so what are you feeling, and finding?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mitsu :)
    Mitsu Ishii: hello
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Mitsu
    Stim Morane: Hi Mitsu
    Mitsu Ishii: we're doing text this time?
    Stim Morane: so it seems
    Mitsu Ishii: we tried second life voice on Sunday, it seemed to work adequately.
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm feeling like 'being on a plateau' where I can look around the path for a bit.
    Stim Morane: say more, Gaya? Sorry to put you on the spot.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sometimes, there are periods where it feels like being stuck?
    Stim Morane: Are you seeing that? Or thinking it?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I see it a bit.
    Stim Morane: :)
    Stim Morane: So what is being stuck like?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Like I need a reminder of the View ... that kind of feeling.
    Stim Morane: Ah ... the pesky View
    Stim Morane: Shall I rehash?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes please
    Stim Morane: :)
    Stim Morane: hmmm
    Stim Morane: ok, give me a second
    Stim Morane: Look from top down ... View is that Reality allows all and accepts all and liberates all from the beginning, but within this expanse of possibilities, there are those which are unawake, unaware of the inclusiveness of all and liberation from the beginning, and view and judge from a limited context, very reactive, habit-bound, judgmental but not insightful.
    Stim Morane: So applying the View here means seeing these latter tendencies as also natural in the sense that they are THERE, we have to deal with them, and way to do that is with openness without indulgence. ORd mind is not open or accepting but does indulge ... it' s backwards.
    Stim Morane: We have to be nice to the backward bit ...
    Stim Morane: :)
    Stim Morane: nice but not indulgent
    Stim Morane: OK?
    Gaya Ethaniel: No not ok ... yet ... is it like hearing more disconsonant chords and find its something unique to appreciate it? Indulging is picking up and using it? And seeing the tendencies to be there is accepting?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Cal :)
    Caledonia Heron: hi there :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Cal
    Stim Morane: Hi Cal!
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Cal
    Caledonia Heron: hi, hello, howdy :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Stim Morane: Well last time I suggested you look for things that seem to cause trouble ...
    Stim Morane: Did that part yield some findings?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I see this - "view and judge from a limited context, very reactive, habit-bound, judgmental but not insightful."
    Stim Morane: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: Way too broad to pin anything down yet ... a lot of my behaviours are like that.
    Stim Morane: but this account, while much appreciated, is a summary
    Stim Morane: Yes, exactly
    Stim Morane: So to rephrase, can you see such things immediately, in a specific case?
    Stim Morane: See, it's hard to be nice to a summary
    Gaya Ethaniel: Not always Stim, sometimes I catch it and if I'm lucky I feel ok to sit in it. Other times no, I go along with it.
    Stim Morane: OK, good.
    Stim Morane: My point was simply that if we're going to be concerned with "naturalness" we have to start with examples of what we've got.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Sunfire :)
    Stim Morane: Then the issue is what to do next.
    Sunfire Langer: Hell
    Stim Morane: If you are willing to let the pesky parts "belong" without actually going their way, i.e., the way they dictate, this = "practice" of a sort.
    Stim Morane: the more you see and include, the more you CAN see and include, etc.
    Stim Morane: "you" yourself are redefined to be more inclusive of what is there.
    Stim Morane: this = discover of your nature, or of yourself as actually present
    Stim Morane: *discovery
    Tarmel Udimo: interesting
    Mitsu Ishii: so Gaya is the issue whether you feel okay with it or not? And if you don't feel okay with it, it feels like there's something amiss?
    Gaya Ethaniel: feel ok with it - what is it?
    Gaya Ethaniel: 'it'
    Stim Morane: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: as in "sometimes I catch it and if I'm lucky I feel ok to sit in it."
    Gaya Ethaniel: That's ok, I am generally very persistent ...
    Stim Morane: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: is the issue whether or not you feel okay to sit with it?
    Mitsu Ishii: or whether you catch it?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Still working on facing it to sit in it, acceptance and fear etc.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Issue is I'm missing 'next step' what to do as Stim said.
    Stim Morane: do you think it would help to pick something simpler, smaller, less daunting?
    Stim Morane: I mean, to start with?
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... no this is good for me. I've been thinking about these stuff for as long as I remember.
    Stim Morane: I asked last time to look at things that are trouble-makers, but perhaps I should have recommended settling for moderate trouble-makers.
    Stim Morane: Yes, I see.
    Tarmel Udimo: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Not these but as in 'why'
    Mitsu Ishii: but I'm wondering about this issue of the "next step" --- what do you think the next step would look like
    Stim Morane: Gaya, Mitsu is now playing my role of bugging you.
    Stim Morane: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh is he? I didn't notice :)
    Stim Morane: I'm so glad
    Stim Morane: anyway, I like his question ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Stim and you guys, where have you been all these years?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well not as next as in sequence but another aspect maybe?
    Stim Morane: I'm trying to figure out where we are now, but that's another matter.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello hajar :)
    Stim Morane: sure ...
    hajar Cyberstar: hello
    hajar Cyberstar: May I just listen in - i
    Stim Morane: sure, you're welcome, hajar
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok let me pick something that I saw behind this ... arrogance?
    Stim Morane: yes?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I see arrogance in others that makes me feel inadequ
    Mitsu Ishii: Well I guess I'm wondering if you think there's something you need to do, or you're looking for a certain action to do, or if it is something else
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Hajar of course
    Gaya Ethaniel: inadequate
    hajar Cyberstar: thank you Eliza
    Gaya Ethaniel: Mitsu I'm not sure ... I'm on a plateau.
    hajar Cyberstar: I need to ujse hands to work
    Stim Morane: Mitsu is raising an important question, of a sort that would properly lead to various strands of discussions.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Feeling inadequate is a reaction in me that is not necessary, does that make sense?
    Stim Morane: But just to jump in here, I think it's important to note that this particular forum topic, "naturalness", is going to be IMPOSSIBLE to investigate if we hold to tightly and uncritically to the ordinary notion of "me", the self.
    Mitsu Ishii: okay I see
    Mitsu Ishii: (to Gaya)
    Stim Morane: The ordinary sense of self excludes direct insight regarding our natures. It essentially replaces it with itself.
    Stim Morane: We start thinking in terms of "how I typically behave or feel" etc, and this clouds direct seeing of what is actually operating.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah
    Tarmel Udimo: ah indeed
    Stim Morane: So last time I was asking not "how do I feel in my life" but "what is happening now that gets in the way?"
    Stim Morane: there is a difference
    Sunfire Langer: In a sense whats natural is what is, if we see anything 'unnatural' that suggests its outside of our definition of nature. So either the thing 'unnatural' is innapropriate, or the definition of 'nature' is not correct
    Stim Morane: Yes, Sunfire.
    Stim Morane: Everything is natural, in the sense that it IS.
    Sunfire Langer: I agree
    Stim Morane: The problem is that we don't see and include and accept and learn ...
    Stim Morane: we narrow down ...
    Stim Morane: pick and choose, ignore ... we don't listen!
    Stim Morane: So I'm trying to suggest a course of exploration based on seeing and listening.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Why do I ignore rather than include? This including isn't really happening ... ah feel so thick now.
    Sunfire Langer: Listening is profound, when we really tune in
    Sunfire Langer: spooky things happen
    Stim Morane: we think we know ourselves well, aften some decades.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Stim Morane: But really we just know what we allow ourselves to see, and we just keep repeating the same narrow view over and over.
    Stim Morane: Meanwhile, the whole nature is trying to be included.
    Stim Morane: In the process, it "makes trouble".
    Stim Morane: So just to make up an arbitrary scheme ...
    Caledonia Heron: Thow out your jukebox! Quit playing the same records!!
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: :)
    Stim Morane: start with pesky stuff, seen immediately. Yes, time for ones, Cal!
    Stim Morane: Once you can see and be "nice", friendly, to the simple pesky stuff, you are necessarily enlarging your own lived version of "you".
    Stim Morane: This means you can go on to practice step 2:
    Stim Morane: step 2 is: listen to the little things of a positive nature ...
    Sunfire Langer: 'The "I am" is certain, the "I am this" is not'
    Stim Morane: uh oh ... Sunfire, help?
    Sunfire Langer: quote, I've lost his name, but its a guru from somewhere, let me websearch
    Stim Morane: :{
    Stim Morane: gurus!
    Stim Morane: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: If you ask me again 'how do you feel in your life' off the cut way now, I will answer 'I feel ok overall' ... hm ...
    Dao Yheng: Gurus have mustaches?
    Stim Morane: anyway, I suggested starting with very simple, not too daunting examples of stuff that trips us or limits us
    Sunfire Langer: That quote is from Nisargadatta, Stim
    Stim Morane: then being friendly, accepting (see my earlier View rap, which some of you may have missed) ... this opens us
    Stim Morane: Yes, I thouht so. LIke him.
    Stim Morane: thought so
    Sunfire Langer: me too :)
    Stim Morane: then from being more open, we can listen better and notice little voices, intimations, that usually go unnoticed, that are actually very healthy
    Stim Morane: This is "our nature" too.
    Stim Morane: we can't hear it well, usually
    Stim Morane: in this way, we can learn to live more freely and aptly
    Stim Morane: this in turn grows down into what we are more, exposing more fundamental nature
    Stim Morane: this fundamental nature accepts all, and liberates all.
    Stim Morane: Very basic scheme, but it works.
    Mitsu Ishii: to me, the crucial thing is teasing apart the labelling, identification aspect
    Stim Morane: yes ... say more, Mitsu?
    Mitsu Ishii: I don't want to suggest a false separation, but very roughly one could talk of the "thing itself" and the label attached to it (not that the label is somehow not part of it as well, but again, speaking roughly)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Is this something about 'seeing self'?
    Stim Morane: yes ... as I indicated, this labeling etc is going to obscure the discovery I'm recommending here.
    Mitsu Ishii: well the self is an example of this same phenomenon, yes
    Stim Morane: It is inseparable from the ordinary heedlessly held "self"
    Stim Morane: yes
    Mitsu Ishii: or one could say the self is made up of this phenomenon or something like that
    Stim Morane: so we're letting in more of our nature to open past this silly version of "me"
    Caledonia Heron: maybe it's a process, a teasing, maybe sometimes you just get it, get a feel of that nature
    Stim Morane: the self is codependent with the labeling etc
    Gaya Ethaniel: I am certainly not in the hall of mirrors anymore but still stuck with this particular self it seems.
    Stim Morane: not constituted, but codependent perhaps
    Stim Morane: yes, Gaya, we all are ... and we all aren't.
    Stim Morane: It's the "aren't" part that I'm emphasizing now.
    Stim Morane: seen directly, at any given moment, it is "not"
    Gaya Ethaniel: There are moments are/aren't are the same ...
    Stim Morane: the self is not a thing, but a gloss
    Mitsu Ishii: what I mean is, if you can tease apart that "moment" of labelled (which isn't really a moment), then the thing itself, whatever it is, can have a tremendously different function
    Gaya Ethaniel: gloss?
    Stim Morane: a summary assessment
    Gaya Ethaniel: >><
    Stim Morane: not fully accurate
    Gaya Ethaniel: >.<
    Sunfire Langer: I was given a great quote/idea from Eric Hoffer the other night: The idea was that the less self-possessed an individual is, the more likely they are to identify with some organisation, country or group, that THAT is their identity, because they havent seen their own identity, I guess
    Stim Morane: :)
    Stim Morane: quite possible
    Stim Morane: it's at least part of it
    genesis Zhangsun: so maybe there is no "next step" no new aspects just seeing more of this self and what its up to?
    Stim Morane: many things could be said ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Tycho :)
    Stim Morane: I'm just suggesting a basic exploration, starting and ending with "your nature"
    Stim Morane: or "the nature"
    Dao Yheng: I feel like the hardest step is back a few -- friendliness toward things we don't like
    Stim Morane: Anyway, I've outlined several simple-seeming steps here ...
    Stim Morane: I wonder if they're implementable ... as HOMEWORK
    Stim Morane: :{
    Stim Morane: :)
    Stim Morane: yes, Dao ... that's why I suggested starting with a simple case
    Stim Morane: not something we've always hated, but something small, negotiable
    Stim Morane: make it easy on yourself
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Aidan :)
    Dao Yheng: the rest comes on its own, but if you can't really find a way to be generous or at least funny about the weird hang up, it is very frustrating
    Aidan Spiritor: hello
    Stim Morane: Yes, Dao ... maybe pick another one then?
    Mitsu Ishii: the label is the genesis of the dislike or hate, in other words. if we can tease that apart, sort of peel off the label, then that same thing whatever it is can be free to be something bigger than we think it is
    Stim Morane: be flexible
    Stim Morane: no need to be defeated
    Dao Yheng: not compaining, just noticing :)
    Stim Morane: you and Mitsu are both making very apt comments
    Tarmel Udimo: agree with: genesis Zhangsun: so maybe there is no "next step" no new aspects just seeing more of this self and what its up to?
    Stim Morane: yes
    Stim Morane: I agree too
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well that is a next step of some sort :)
    Stim Morane: but by "seeing", which is one of my favorite words, we have to mean "fulling acknowledging and accepting"
    Stim Morane: we're not bug hunters
    Stim Morane: otherwise, we're seeing thru the veil of the labels Mitsu is mentioning.
    Eliza Madrigal: we seem to keep expecting things from our 'selves' things it cant give.. ie insight
    Stim Morane: we can't then find the fullness of the alleged limitation.
    Stim Morane: say more, Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: that's when I feel most stuck I think... when I keep going to myself and saying "cough up ___"
    Eliza Madrigal: whether it is an answer or something....
    Stim Morane: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: empty bank
    Stim Morane: Yes, this too is the self, trying to practice ...
    Stim Morane: the more of our nature, limited and inspired, that we find and include, the less we are looking through the eyes and expectations of the self.
    Stim Morane: this is the easy way to realize "no self"
    Stim Morane: otherwise we'd have to follow the "hard way", which I studied but may not be suited to this forum.
    Sunfire Langer: curiousity serves us much better than ambition
    Stim Morane: very true, Sunfire
    Stim Morane: we need to be curious again, about what we are.
    Stim Morane: not just assume "oh, it's that thing again"
    Tycho Foxclaw: many are curious but few are willing to really exert the effort because effort requires self analysis and surrender
    Stim Morane: yes, Tycho ... perhaps we can simplify the exploration a bit here, as I've outlined.
    Gaya Ethaniel: What do you mean by 'fully' aknowledging and accepting Stim? That word fully ...
    Stim Morane: Just to get things moving
    Stim Morane: Good question, Gaya. This is where Mitsu's point comes in ... )
    Mitsu Ishii: heh heh
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok :)
    Stim Morane: Acceptance is not, in this case, meant to be a judgment or another attitude or label, but an honest opening of the door
    Stim Morane: hi, come in, oh I see you better, you're weird but I guess you're family too, etc
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: So as in 'ok thank you I heard you. Now let's find out who else is around?'
    Mitsu Ishii: to use my silly metaphor, you can put another label on it, like "accept this", which is better than the reactivity but not really the point
    Stim Morane: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh I like how you typed better Stim
    Mitsu Ishii: not the whole point that is
    Stim Morane: it's all your nature, and even the "bad" stuff is instructive and part of something great. Seen in this more honest and complet way ...
    Stim Morane: But start with a SIMPLE CASE
    Sunfire Langer: well, its not to force anything, how you catergorise something or yourself, its counter-productive
    Gaya Ethaniel: You're weird heheheh
    Stim Morane: not with something that has always defeated you ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: I used to think saying something weird is to see that I don't have a label to categorise it. ah ... I see what I've been doing.
    Stim Morane: time is almost up ... am I sketching out an approach here?
    Tycho Foxclaw: Heard an interesting quote from a pastor once, "God is willing to accept you where you are, his isn't satisfied to leave you there"
    Mitsu Ishii: reminds me of that Rumi poem
    Caledonia Heron: example of simple case?
    Mitsu Ishii:

    This being human is a guest house
    Every morning a new arrival.
    A joy, a depression, a meanness,
    some momentary awareness comes
    as an unexpected visitor.
    Welcome and entertain them all!
    Even if they are a crowd of sorrows,
    who violently sweep your house
    empty of its furniture,
    still treat each guest honorably.
    He may be clearing you out for some new delight.
    The dark thought, the shame, the malice,
    meet them at the door laughing,
    and invite them in.
    Be grateful for whoever comes,
    because each has been sent
    as a guide from beyond.

    Stim Morane: woah
    Stim Morane: :)
    Sunfire Langer: within each fruit, is the seed you will need for the next step
    Stim Morane: So to repeat the View I mentioned earlier:
    Stim Morane: Look from top down ... View is that Reality allows all and accepts all and liberates all from the beginning, but within this expanse of possibilities, there are those which are unawake, unaware of the inclusiveness of all and liberation from the beginning, and view and judge from a limited context, very reactive, habit-bound, judgmental but not insightful.
    Stim Morane: So applying the View here means seeing these latter tendencies as also natural in the sense that they are THERE, we have to deal with them, and way to do that is with openness without indulgence. ORd mind is not open or accepting but does indulge ... it' s backwards.
    Stim Morane: We don't need to be so backward ...
    Stim Morane: This is the way to understand and benefit from investigating "naturalness"
    Stim Morane: OK?
    genesis Zhangsun: OK!
    Eliza Madrigal: OK :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: And Stim you're saying that that 'reality' is what I am too right ... already ... ?
    Stim Morane: yes
    Tarmel Udimo: great!
    Stim Morane: quite right
    Stim Morane: what else could be true?
    Stim Morane: But HOMEWORK is in order!
    Stim Morane: you have to actually follow through ...
    Stim Morane: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Sunfire Langer: well, I would say its stages of awareness, if one is reactive and habit bound they're in the process of becoming aware of that (however successfully) its not necessarily bad for them, stagnating is bad for them, but gaining awareness of their present habit enables them for the next stage
    Stim Morane: yes
    Stim Morane: that'
    Stim Morane: that's homework too
    Stim Morane: Question: so we just used text chat this time, vs voice last two times. What about next week?
    Stim Morane: Gaya, you choose!
    Stim Morane: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: >.<
    Stim Morane: :(
    Stim Morane: come on ...
    Stim Morane: you can do it ...
    Mitsu Ishii: gaya should choose
    Gaya Ethaniel: Why me?
    Stim Morane: we'll follow your lead
    Timbo Quan: Why not you?
    Mitsu Ishii: because
    Gaya Ethaniel: Come on ... be nice to me ... Pila you choose.
    Stim Morane: :(
    Mitsu Ishii: gaya!
    Caledonia Heron: goodness
    Stim Morane: OK, it's all right
    Sunfire Langer: accept, dont expect, Stim ;)
    genesis Zhangsun: gaya! gaya! gaya!
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Stim Morane: yes, you're right
    Pila Mulligan votes for text :)
    Stim Morane: I mean, Sunfire
    Stim Morane: Ok, text
    Stim Morane: that was (not very) easy
    Stim Morane: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: okay bye everyone
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you :)
    Pila Mulligan: thanks Stim, bye
    genesis Zhangsun: bye everyone! thanks Stim
    Stim Morane: But Gaya, let's chat about homework, I'd like to discuss some of the detail with you a bit. OK?
    Tarmel Udimo: thanks Stim
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Mitsu, Sunfire, Timbo, Aidan, Cal, Pila, hajar, Stim, Gen, Scath, Gaya, Dao, and Tarmel :)
    Stim Morane: thanks everyone
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok thank you Stim :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Stim
    Stim Morane: I'll contact you
    Stim Morane: Bye everyone
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok, see you later :)
    Timbo Quan: bye
    Dao Yheng: Thanks everyone!
    Tarmel Udimo: bye all
    Gaya Ethaniel: phew ... that was close
    Scathach Rhiadra: good night all
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night :)

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