2009.08.13 - Workshop 24

Gaya Ethaniel: boo!
Scathach Rhiadra: heehee, I saw you!
Gaya Ethaniel: :P
Scathach Rhiadra: a new avatar?
Gaya Ethaniel nods nods :)
Gaya Ethaniel: You like?
 Scathach Rhiadra: a sheep:))
Gaya Ethaniel: or a fox heheheh
Scathach Rhiadra: or lamb
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Stim :)
Stim Morane: hi Scathach and Gaya
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim:)
Scathach Rhiadra: how are you today?
Gaya Ethaniel: How are you?
Stim Morane: about half-awake, as usual
Stim Morane: and you?
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: fine thank you
Gaya Ethaniel: Not bad thanks :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pila :)
Stim Morane: hi Pila
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pila
Pila Mulligan: hi Stim, Scath and Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fefonz :)
Stim Morane: hi Fefonz
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz:)
Pila Mulligan: hi Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: Hello Stim, Gaya, Pila, Scath :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Stim, Scath, Pila, Gaya, Fef
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza :)
Fefonz Quan: not sure I can stay for the whole session, so apologize in advance if I vanish
Fefonz Quan: hey Eliza
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Eliza
Stim Morane: Hi Eliza
Pila Mulligan: hi Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Gaya...really sweet av :)
Gaya Ethaniel: =^.^= ty
Pila Mulligan: hi Ari
Stim Morane: I'd like to thank Eliza, Gaya and Scathach for contributing responses re the homework ...although I wasn't able to view your post, Scathach. Not sure what's going on there.
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Arisia :)
Arisia Vita: Hi all...
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ari
Scathach Rhiadra: oh...
Stim Morane: Hi Arisia
Gaya Ethaniel: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/index....adra/Report_23
Fefonz Quan: hi Ari
Scathach Rhiadra: does that link work?
Gaya Ethaniel: This link should work.
Stim Morane: We can try it and see ... but it didn't work when i tried earlier
Stim Morane: anyway, thanks!
Stim Morane: the homework question was: do you find that you are chained to being the person you have been in the past?
Scathach Rhiadra: ok:)
Fefonz Quan: works and also very nice written :)
Stim Morane: I realize this is a rather personal question ... :)
Scathach Rhiadra: ty Fefonz
Stim Morane: I hope that's ok
Pila Mulligan: is this a koan Stim :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Stim Morane: the homework question is simply a question, and one I hoped would point at some codependent arising issues
Gaya Ethaniel: I can't see which part is not personal in these explorations Stim.
Stim Morane: oh, by the way, I can now view your page, Scathach
Stim Morane: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: ah ok
Stim Morane: Looking over the homework responses, I see many points we could follow up on.
Stim Morane: My main interest was in raising several related questions ...
Stim Morane: first, What are antecedent causes or factors leading to picking up old self?
 Pila Mulligan: hi Mick
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick :)
Fefonz Quan: hi mick
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Mick
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick
Mickorod Renard: Hiya
Stim Morane: The idea re that question is linked to the first kind of codependent arising I mentioned here, one that emphasizes temporal succession
Stim Morane: Hi Mick!
Stim Morane: Hi arabella
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ara
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello arabella :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Ara
arabella Ella: Hiya Stim Hiya everyone
Stim Morane: so regarding this first point, do any of you have comments about temporally successive "chains" leading to or setting up the usual sense of self?
Fefonz Quan: like chains of associations that lead to memories of past self?
Mickorod Renard: past self in this lifetime?
Fefonz Quan: sure Mick
Mickorod Renard: ta
Stim Morane: yes, Fefonz, that would be an example
Eliza Madrigal: This question changed a few times for me during the week ... not sure I got there. Scath's writing seems to point well?
Stim Morane: yes, Mick, that's a good start! :)
 Gaya Ethaniel: Many things can be a trigger for that I think, ie people, place, stories etc.
Stim Morane: Yes, Scathach's report and those of Gaya and Eliza also contain relevant angles on this
Stim Morane: yes, Gaya ... all those would count
Gaya Ethaniel: I wrote this today in addition - Whether joy or sorrow, feeling moved by a story is healthy. It's an experience. Taking lessons away when the book is closed is useful. It's growing up. The difference between reading and recollecting is whether I am aware if it's a 'story' or not ...
Stim Morane: we are constantly being set up as a certain sort of self by all these other factors
Mickorod Renard: without giving an example,,I have been aware recently of how controling I used to be,,and how much of an idealist i was
Stim Morane: Mick, you're saying you have changed notably?
Mickorod Renard: I think I have
Stim Morane: what contributed to the change?
Mickorod Renard: self destruction
Stim Morane: :)
Stim Morane: (:
Stim Morane: is that a way of saying you are learning?
Mickorod Renard: well interesting point Stim
Mickorod Renard: maybe I am learning a new way of coping from a non controlling position
Mickorod Renard: reminds me of my old cat
Stim Morane: so just as we can ask what sets up the recurring old self or cluster of old selves, we can ask how change comes about
Stim Morane: and try to see codependent arising in both
arabella Ella: I think there are many things that 'create' our old self some of which are very difficult or impossible to 'escape' from
arabella Ella: but the will and motivation to change are key
Stim Morane: yes, arabella, that is very possible.
arabella Ella: and patience with oneself too
Fefonz Quan: For me one of the most meaningful experiences and changes I've gone through where when i was in a workshop where I didn't know anyone, so I could act freshly without other seen me in old eyes
Stim Morane: yes, without patience, I'm sure we're truly stuck
Stim Morane: yes, Fefonz.
Stim Morane: that already points to the kind of thing i have in mind
arabella Ella: I am reading a novel which brings out the influence of parents on our present self ... regardless of whether we acknowledge the influence or not
Fefonz Quan: One of the most liberating times I had :)
Mickorod Renard: when I was young I was happy to row against the current, now I am older I find it infinitely easier to go with the current
Stim Morane: yes, arabella, it's pretty scary or wonderful ...
arabella Ella: both I guess
Stim Morane: both made sense, Mick, given codependent factors
Stim Morane: my overall point here is that seeing these factors is possible and liberating
Stim Morane: it's very difficult, as arabella mentioned, but it is possible
Stim Morane: this has great potential
Stim Morane: but the kind of mind that can do this is not one that is typically set up by the chain of factors
Stim Morane: so we have to gradually excavate a more incisive awareness
Stim Morane: then use that to see more, getting more awareness, seeing more, getting more, etc
arabella Ella: perhaps we also need to remember that no person is an island ... we live in communities with others who at times may constrain our actions ... perhaps also our thoughts
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Adams :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Adams :)
arabella Ella: Hiya Adama
Stim Morane: yes, arabella. that is very important
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Adams
arabella Ella: Adams
Adams Rubble: Hello everyone :)
Mickorod Renard: hi Adams
Stim Morane: hi Adams
Stim Morane: there is nothing wrong with being interdefined ... as by our associates etc
Stim Morane: we should indeed acknowledge being part of the human community
Stim Morane: But we should see which community that is in fact, and what it is doing re framing us
Stim Morane: we can help each other to find ourselves or we can bury each other
Stim Morane: people are extremely sensitive to this kind of mutual definition
Stim Morane: anyway, one sort of codependent arising is temporal, as I mentioned
Stim Morane: another type is coincident, involving co-present factors
Stim Morane: this is more like the 2nd type of codependent arising I mentioned here
Stim Morane: so this too is something I'd like you to look into. This is the more typical area inspected by meditation.
Stim Morane: There are countless such factors that can be seen, and from which we can extricate "ourselves"
Stim Morane: Examples?
Gaya Ethaniel: I want to ask you about remembering Stim.
Stim Morane: sure
Gaya Ethaniel: Well reliving the past is tricky because of a strong sense of self now and also in the past, as in linking?
Fefonz Quan: the mirror?
Gaya Ethaniel: Emphasising with characters I think is ok but ...
Gaya Ethaniel: [end of question]
Mickorod Renard: our values do change with time ..and also hindsight is great too
Stim Morane: empathy towards such characters? Is that what you mean?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes as in watching a play ... emphasising with a character in a story or past memories re: myself I think is ok but it's also problematic ...
Stim Morane: I see
Stim Morane: yes, we have to be able to do that, in order to benefit from reading
Stim Morane: but it can be taken too far
Stim Morane: I guess this is just an example of the human dilemma
Stim Morane: we have to be "accessible' in order to be alive and learn
Stim Morane: but we have to see what we are picking up, and holding on to ...
Gaya Ethaniel: ahhh
Gaya Ethaniel: ok I will watch that area more carefully Stim, thanks.
Stim Morane: otherwise we get influenced in ways that say more about our unconscious preferences and fears etc than about our ability to learn
Stim Morane: the novel was understood to have a different role than it probably does now, today
Adams Rubble: :)
Mickorod Renard: I need someone like you Stim, with me 24 hours a day
Fefonz Quan: (the novel?)
Stim Morane: you can keep me, I'm sick of the guy
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Mickorod Renard: he he
Eliza Madrigal shakes head
Adams Rubble: :)
Gaya Ethaniel pouts.
Stim Morane: novels were probably not seen as entertainment in the past, not in the modern sense
Stim Morane: Gaya pouts?
Gaya Ethaniel: yeah ... I feel bad for the guy you are sick of.
Stim Morane: oh
Stim Morane: Mick will take good care of him
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: ah :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Stim Morane: we'll work out the transport arrangements later
Mickorod Renard: I will, I will treasure him
Stim Morane: just keep him away from your best cigars
Mickorod Renard: ran out
Stim Morane: ah
Mickorod Renard: when we see the stuff we are attached to..how do we get rid of it Stim?
Stim Morane: yes, mick
Stim Morane: that is precisely the next question
Stim Morane: any answers?
Stim Morane: I did say that awareness itself does the trick, but perhaps that needs to be unpacked
Mickorod Renard: once I have done it I am strictly minimalistic from then on
Adams Rubble: Seeing it is more than half the step
Stim Morane: yes, I agree Adams
Stim Morane: I think it's 100% but still suspect we should discuss this ...
Eliza Madrigal: When we moved into our current house, there was an enormous mirror, and my kids would talk to themselves in it rather than to each other or to me... they'd watch themselves eating, etc.... had to go :)
Stim Morane: interesting
Mickorod Renard: if it's been seen but hasn't gone then I have missed something?
Stim Morane: yes, Mick, that's why I suspected some discussion was called for
Stim Morane: Any responses?
Gaya Ethaniel: Need to catch the thieves in action I think.
Stim Morane: yes
Adams Rubble: We might see the surface and not what is behind it
Stim Morane: yes
Fefonz Quan: yes I need also some clarification about this seeing is enough
Mickorod Renard: ahh
Stim Morane: there's seeing and then there's REALLY seeing!
Gaya Ethaniel: And say aloha~
Fefonz Quan: sometimes others put us in a situation when we are very aware of our 'self'
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Stim Morane: note: most of what we can do at a given time to liberate ourselves will be part of the same old kit!
Stim Morane: It will be the same stuff that is codependent with the things we want to shed
Stim Morane: this applies to much "seeing" too
Fefonz Quan: and we can watch this self getting hotter without being able to cool it
Stim Morane: so you get the idea ...
Stim Morane: yes
Stim Morane: so that kind of seeing doesn't help much
Fefonz Quan: yep...
Mickorod Renard: I thought I had dealt with stuff as directed but it comes back. Is that normal, is it an everyday thing?
Stim Morane: and makes us feel even more trapped
Fefonz Quan: need new eye glasses :)
Stim Morane: yes, a common problem Mick
arabella Ella: takes a tremendous amount of time and patience Mick
Stim Morane: this is why learning about codependent arising, really seeing it, is tricky
arabella Ella: and will too
Stim Morane: otherwise it just makes us feel worse
Mickorod Renard: mmmmm
Stim Morane: patience and a sense of humor are hugely important
Gaya Ethaniel: How do I develop more humour Stim?
Stim Morane: but again, I'm saying we need to see the kind of seeing we're using to free ourselves from the usual baggage
Stim Morane: Gaya, you DO have a sense of humor!
Stim Morane: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: oh ... ok :)
Fefonz Quan: can you say more/describe that kind of seeing?
Stim Morane: but if you want to pay extra, I have this special package ...
arabella Ella: :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes very much Stim.
Adams Rubble looks in her pockets
arabella Ella would not mind receiving a copy of Stim's package too
Fefonz Quan: Gaya is willing to pay double the current price :)
Stim Morane: are there dogs walking around on the street where you live, Gaya?
Gaya Ethaniel: They 'attack' me when they see me walking ... too enthusiastic.
Stim Morane: oh
Stim Morane: maybe that won't work then
Gaya Ethaniel: Animals often walk up to me ... a bit scary, even wild ones.
Stim Morane: well how about teen agers?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes lots of hoodies :)
Stim Morane: any nonscary teenagers?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes cute ones :)
Stim Morane: ok
Stim Morane: perhaps they can provide you with the material you need
Stim Morane: the best kind of sense of human is one that is not malicious and IS life-oriented in the big picture way
Stim Morane: *humor, sorry
Pila Mulligan: both work
Stim Morane: and I suppose sl may be slightly useful too
Stim Morane: :)
Stim Morane: anyway, I'm just mentioning some places to look here, re codependent arising ...
Stim Morane: there are the temporally successive things, and the coincident ones
Mickorod Renard: sometimes I feel well above the baggage, it being purged, but then I have the feeling that I am on a runaway train, as if I am letting go of control
Stim Morane: and the issue of seeing them without cementing them
Stim Morane: OK Mick, that is the best situation
Stim Morane: because that is where you can learn the most
Mickorod Renard: yes?
Stim Morane: either then or slightly later
Stim Morane: what do the rest of you think?
Gaya Ethaniel: eh? Stim ... that was it? So I go up and start talking to these teenagers? They will think me strange ...
Gaya Ethaniel: Nevermind, I will gather some more payments next time :)
Stim Morane: Gaya, that may be dangerous ...
Stim Morane: we'll have to think of a way ...
Stim Morane: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: ok ty :)
Eliza Madrigal: I do think often right before something is clear it is really confusing... maybe seeing it as confusing opens the door?
Stim Morane: yes, the darkest before the dawn phenom
Eliza Madrigal nods.. sleep affected etc
Stim Morane: the point is that an intensified version of our chains is the easiest to really see clearly
Gaya Ethaniel: What do you mean by cementing Stim?
Stim Morane: ordinary ways of seeing our habits can just make us feel more stuck
Fefonz Quan: and also sometimes it is so intense, we have no energy left to treat it in our common way,
Stim Morane: and in fact does make us more stuck ... but this is hopefully on the way to something more useful
Stim Morane: yes, Fefonz, exactly right
Fefonz Quan: and we are 'forced' to react freshly
Stim Morane: yes, the ordinary self just has nowhere to go
Fefonz Quan: though that sounds like the risky path, like walking on a high wire
Stim Morane: but of course it always has the option of getting overwhelmed ...
Stim Morane: so yes, there is a challenge here
Stim Morane: that's where the patience and humor come in
Fefonz Quan: is there a less steep path?
Fefonz Quan: (small step of faith instead of a giant leap?)
Stim Morane: you can turn what we're discussing into a path of any inclination you please
Stim Morane: and it's best to be modest ...
Stim Morane: no point in being too ambitious
Stim Morane: but pick something specific to work with
Stim Morane: I'm speaking in a general way here, but your investigation can't be GENERAL
Stim Morane: Moving along, I wonder if the consequences of holding on to the usual old "me" are fairly clear ...
Stim Morane: this is another area to look into, another aspect of the codependent arising issue
Stim Morane: so we have "what leads to 'me'?" and "what follows from that?"
Fefonz Quan: clear like making us stuck and prevent free progress ahead?
Stim Morane: yes, for instance
Stim Morane: but to really see this is important!
Stim Morane: there are many consequences
Fefonz Quan: I find it is also strongly connected to the issue of memory
Stim Morane: yes, very true!
Stim Morane: would you like to elaborate, Fefonz?
Mickorod Renard: lol is this like compartmentalising?
Stim Morane: say more, Mick?
Fefonz Quan: all our past is recorded in 9what we think) is some constant memories, and we (or me) many times compare the present or the present self to past ones
Stim Morane: yes, this is happening all the time
Fefonz Quan: and even good memories makes us 'miss' those times
Mickorod Renard: I mean, stash the baggage away, lock it up
Stim Morane: it's part of what we're discussing
Stim Morane: or, I see, Mick
Eliza Madrigal: isn't that what we shouldn't do? hide it?
Stim Morane: good question, we'll see if we have alternatives ...
Stim Morane: I hope we do
Fefonz Quan: yes, I shouldn't go for hiding too
Stim Morane: we're coming to the end of our time here.
Stim Morane: So for homework, let's look at the "consequences" angle
Mickorod Renard: ok
arabella Ella: maybe not hiding ... but moving on with life and not letting the baggage drag us down with it
Stim Morane: yes, hopefully we can manage that.
Gaya Ethaniel: ok consequences angle probably needs more work than leading up for me.
Eliza Madrigal nods
Mickorod Renard: I would be happy just to stop tripping over it
Stim Morane: Well, thanks, everyone.
Eliza Madrigal nods vigorously Mick, me too :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you Stim. Enjoy your day :)
Stim Morane: We'll see what we can come up with, and what we can do about it ...
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Stim :)
Mickorod Renard: thank you Stim, lovely to see you back
Scathach Rhiadra: Thank you Stim, good night:)
Adams Rubble: Thank you Stim :)
Pila Mulligan: bye Stim, thanks
arabella Ella: thanks Stim
Stim Morane: Nice to see you all ... I appreciate your interest in this investigation.
Stim Morane: Bye
Mickorod Renard: bye
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Adams Rubble: bye
arabella Ella: bye and thanks for your patience with us :)
arabella Ella: and your sharing too
Eliza Madrigal: :) yes indeed Ara
arabella Ella: bye everyone!
arabella Ella: must go now
Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you everyone :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Ara
Mickorod Renard: and having a nice hair style
Scathach Rhiadra: good night Ara
Adams Rubble: bye everyone :)
Fefonz Quan: thank you all
Scathach Rhiadra: good night all, Namasté
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Adams :)
Fefonz Quan: good bye everyone,
Mickorod Renard: nite everyone
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Scath, bye everyone :)
Mickorod Renard: love to you all
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks all, Good to see you Fef. I'd love it if you could follow the mirrors angle sometime...
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Mick, good to see you
Fefonz Quan: good to see you too Eliza