2009.11.05 - Open Discussion

[14:02]  Gaya Ethaniel is Online
[14:02]  Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
[14:02]  Connected
[14:02]  Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Dao :)
[14:03]  Dao Yheng: Hi Gaya!
[14:03]  Gaya Ethaniel: Scath is not feeling well and had to go to bed.
[14:03]  Gaya Ethaniel: How are you?
[14:03]  Dao Yheng: This is a relief
[14:03]  Gaya Ethaniel: Relief?
[14:03]  Dao Yheng: crazy at work
[14:03]  Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... we can party anyway.
[14:04]  Dao Yheng: yes!
[14:04]  Gaya Ethaniel: I have various things to eat, drink ... any preference?
[14:04]  Dao Yheng: bunny snacks?
[14:04]  Gaya Ethaniel gave you onigokko.
[14:04]  Mitsu Ishii is Online
[14:04]  Gaya Ethaniel: ok wear onigokko_shippo
[14:05]  Gaya Ethaniel: right click and wear ...
[14:05]  Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Tarmel :) How are you?
[14:05]  Dao Yheng: Hi Tarmel and Pila!
[14:05]  Pila Mulligan: greetings
[14:05]  Gaya Ethaniel: worn now Dao?
[14:05]  Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pila :)
[14:05]  Tarmel Udimo: Hi everyone
[14:06]  Gaya Ethaniel: onigokko
[14:06]  Tarmel Udimo: I can't stay for long so just popping in for a few mins:)
[14:06]  Pila Mulligan: :)
[14:06]  Dao Yheng: ha ha!
[14:06]  Gaya Ethaniel: ok Tarmel :) Dao says she had a hard day at work.
[14:06]  Dao Yheng: working it off now!
[14:06]  Tarmel Udimo: hehehe haven't herad that for a while
[14:06]  Gaya Ethaniel: stop
[14:06]  Tarmel Udimo: great!
[14:06]  Gaya Ethaniel: You have it with you Tarmel and Pila?
[14:07]  Pila Mulligan: ready :)
[14:07]  Tarmel Udimo: I think so somewhere buried deep in my inventory
[14:07]  Gaya Ethaniel: cool
[14:07]  Tarmel Udimo: hang on
[14:07]  Tarmel Udimo: got it
[14:07]  Gaya Ethaniel: onigokko
[14:07]  Dao Yheng: weee!
[14:08]  Gaya Ethaniel: Mitsu right click and wear what I gave you just now.
[14:08]  Mitsu Ishii: what is going on
[14:08]  Gaya Ethaniel: Hello :)
[14:08]  Gaya Ethaniel: We are partying while Stim is away.
[14:08]  Pila Mulligan: hi Mitsu
[14:08]  Dao Yheng: Hi Mits -- it's onigokko!
[14:08]  Pila Mulligan: welcome to the funny farm
[14:08]  Tarmel Udimo: hi mits
[14:08]  Pila Mulligan: stop
[14:08]  Gaya Ethaniel: stop
[14:08]  Mitsu Ishii: now what
[14:08]  Gaya Ethaniel: onigokko
[14:08]  Mitsu Ishii: oh there we go
[14:09]  Gaya Ethaniel: stop
[14:09]  Pila Mulligan: feels like real exercise :)
[14:09]  Gaya Ethaniel: I have various remedies :)
[14:09]  Tarmel Udimo: yes it does
[14:09]  Pila Mulligan: vircarious virtuality
[14:10]  Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
[14:10]  Pila Mulligan: hi Timbo
[14:10]  Timbo Quan: Hello all
[14:10]  Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Tim :)
[14:10]  Gaya Ethaniel gave you )) HANAUTA (( - Taiyaki (R hand).
[14:11]  Tarmel Udimo: tks gaya
[14:11]  Pila Mulligan: thanks Gaya
[14:11]  Gaya Ethaniel: yw :)
[14:11]  Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zena :)
[14:11]  Pila Mulligan: hi Zena
[14:11]  Zena Ponnier: hello everyone
[14:11]  Pila Mulligan: can jelly fish dance?
[14:11]  Gaya Ethaniel: Are you familar with Ways of Knowing group that we are meeting here for?
[14:11]  Timbo Quan: not very much
[14:11]  GreenTea(Matcha): Mmmhh... enjoy the best green tea Tarmel Udimo
[14:11]  Pila Mulligan: :)
[14:11]  Zena Ponnier: nope
[14:12]  Gaya Ethaniel: Zena our wiki address is http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/ and we record logs. Is that ok with you?
[14:12]  Zena Ponnier: sure
[14:12]  Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks :)
[14:12]  Gaya Ethaniel: Our current topic is 'naturalness'
[14:12]  Mitsu Ishii: so is stim busy
[14:13]  Gaya Ethaniel: I wonder how people are getting along with finding something for homework. I still haven't really found something specific.
[14:13]  Gaya Ethaniel: Stim is much in demand :) Seems he got scheduled in for a dinner last minute.
[14:13]  Mitsu Ishii: dinner? oh he's on the east coast then..
[14:13]  Dao Yheng: hmm, I wonder why I'm floating sideways?
[14:13]  Gaya Ethaniel: Yes he's in Princeton. I sent a group email yesterday with details.
[14:14]  Gaya Ethaniel: There is a RL meeting among some PlayasBeing group members.
[14:14]  Mitsu Ishii: ah right.
[14:14]  Gaya Ethaniel: Please feel free to ask any questions Zena. This week and next, our teacher is away so we will have free discussions.
[14:15]  Zena Ponnier: thanks
[14:15]  Zena Ponnier: i will be afk at times and come back to read if that's ok
[14:15]  Gaya Ethaniel: np
[14:16]  Dao Yheng: It is a little tricky to find somethig simpler or more specific to start with -- I find that even a small thing is attached to other things, and that to more things and it can suddenly become quite complex
[14:16]  Gaya Ethaniel nods.
[14:17]  Gaya Ethaniel: I'm trying to look into the first step or something that I can work with.
[14:17]  Dao Yheng: on the flip side, I was thinking that must mean you can start anywhere
[14:17]  Gaya Ethaniel: That is true yes.
[14:17]  Tarmel Udimo: yes I think it does
[14:17]  Gaya Ethaniel: It can be a loop.
[14:18]  Tarmel Udimo: can you say what the exercise is gaya
[14:18]  Gaya Ethaniel: Let me find the phrase ... one moment.
[14:19]  Gaya Ethaniel: "what is happening now that gets in the way?"
[14:19]  Gaya Ethaniel: I guess in the way of seeing, appreciating etc. in relation to naturalness.
[14:19]  Tarmel Udimo: in the way of naturalness?
[14:19]  Gaya Ethaniel: I asked last time to look at things that are trouble-makers, but perhaps I should have recommended settling for moderate trouble-makers
[14:20]  Gaya Ethaniel: Stim asked the week before above
[14:20]  Gaya Ethaniel: "What can you find in yourself that you think is self-defeating, seems perverse, like troublemakers, to undermine us in some ways, something limiting, seem unnatural? What do you learn about these things by taking more accepting and participatory approach -- not only informs but starts to give sense of a large dimensionality that is the context of these tendencies."
[14:20]  Tarmel Udimo: OK
[14:21]  Tarmel Udimo: suggestion rather than focus on the trouble makers focus on seeing clearly what you are doing
[14:21]  Tarmel Udimo: the trouble makers will be part of this
[14:21]  Gaya Ethaniel: I think we talked about troublemakers also being natural but them getting in the way is problematic.
[14:22]  Gaya Ethaniel: Like Stim said "hi, come in, oh I see you better, you're weird but I guess you're family too, etc"
[14:22]  Tarmel Udimo: only problematic if seen as seperate
[14:23]  Gaya Ethaniel: mm ... not sure, for me they disconnect from natural state of mind or hinder appreciation.
[14:23]  Gaya Ethaniel: It taken for a ride that is ...
[14:24]  Dao Yheng: I read a nice interview that touches on some of these points: http://happylotus.com/2009/10/29/chi...aterial-world/
[14:26]  Dao Yheng: a nice description of the way that our troubles can enrich our experience too
[14:26]  Mitsu Ishii: For me, obstacles have become friends. But I still have obstacles
[14:27]  Mitsu Ishii: they don't seem so obstacle-y anymore
[14:27]  Tarmel Udimo: yes me too
[14:27]  Tarmel Udimo: its more interesting to observe and be attentive to
[14:27]  Mitsu Ishii: For me it has always been easier to work with the complex cases
[14:27]  Tarmel Udimo: I think we assume they will go away these torublemakers but they don't
[14:28]  Gaya Ethaniel: ty Dao, I will re-read after :)
[14:28]  Tarmel Udimo: troublemakers
[14:29]  Tarmel Udimo: when in fact they are our portals to a deeper understanding of ourselves
[14:29]  Gaya Ethaniel: I think trying to get rid of them would mm ... result in worse situations than before I'm guessing.
[14:30]  Dao Yheng: It has taken me some years to learn to open up to trouble, so to speak
[14:31]  Dao Yheng: when I was younger, I was mostly running around like onigokko, but not in a good way
[14:31]  Gaya Ethaniel frowns ... onigokko but not in a good way ... ?
[14:31]  Gaya Ethaniel: I don't get it >.<
[14:32]  Dao Yheng: onigokko, good
[14:32]  Dao Yheng: me running away from troubles, bad
[14:32]  Gaya Ethaniel: ah
[14:32]  Gaya Ethaniel: They follow us around ... heh :)
[14:33]  Dao Yheng: more recently, the troubles are more often a reminder of the possibility of compassion,
[14:33]  Dao Yheng: something like that
[14:33]  Gaya Ethaniel nods.
[14:34]  Gaya Ethaniel: I've been thinking something similar too ... have to stick around and see more.
[14:35]  Gaya Ethaniel: It's so easy to think about situations then move on ... habitually.
[14:35]  Tarmel Udimo: (sorry folks my time is up - but nice talking to you all)
[14:35]  Dao Yheng: Tarmel, you mentioned the idea of a portal to a deeper understanding of yourself -- I'm curious if you wanted to expand on that?
[14:36]  Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Tarmel. Have a good day :)
[14:36]  Tarmel Udimo: oh OK a few more mins
[14:36]  Pila Mulligan: bye Tarmel
[14:36]  Dao Yheng: oops, bye!
[14:37]  Tarmel Udimo: well if you assume that your trouble makers are uniqely your own -
[14:37]  Tarmel Udimo: we all get angry but we each expereince anger uniquely
[14:37]  Tarmel Udimo: then these are very tools portals through which to understand yourself
[14:38]  Gaya Ethaniel nods. I tend to jump straight onto thinking rather than staying with anger.
[14:38]  Tarmel Udimo: I can't use your exepreinces in the same way
[14:38]  Tarmel Udimo: staying with every moment
[14:39]  Tarmel Udimo: they actually open up like portals and evntually if open enough led back to the source - Being
[14:39]  Tarmel Udimo: lead
[14:40]  Tarmel Udimo: not sure if this makes sense
[14:40]  Dao Yheng: Thanks Tarmel, that was lovely
[14:41]  Tarmel Udimo: ok tks:)
[14:41]  Tarmel Udimo: now must run
[14:41]  Tarmel Udimo: BFN
[14:41]  Gaya Ethaniel waves.
[14:41]  Dao Yheng: Gaya makes a good point though -- the trick is staying with it rather than running on
[14:41]  Tarmel Udimo: waves back
[14:41]  Dao Yheng: bye Tarmel!
[14:41]  Pila Mulligan: bye
[14:41]  Gaya Ethaniel: It could be useful to have an overlook what makes you turn away.
[14:41]  Dao Yheng: sort of Pila's tarrying moment also
[14:42]  Gaya Ethaniel: Well that's what I've been invenstigating anyway.
[14:45]  Mitsu Ishii: Of course a lot of what changes for me over time seems to happen outside of my conscious effort
[14:45]  Gaya Ethaniel: You mean things naturally fall into place Mitsu?
[14:46]  Mitsu Ishii: it seems more that I just set up a sort of context, a view, and maybe do some practice, and then things shift without me actually shifting them
[14:46]  Mitsu Ishii: I can feel them shift and if I identify myself as the "larger" being, then one could say "I" am shifting
[14:46]  Mitsu Ishii: but it's not really an operation like "I want to shift this, so here I am shifting it"
[14:47]  Mitsu Ishii: it's almost more like I open myself to the possibility of shifting ... I resist it less or actively ignore it less ... and then it shifts on its own so to speak
[14:48]  Mitsu Ishii: it's as though it "wants" to operate differently, but I am engaging in a habit of preventing it from naturally settling into a different rhythm
[14:48]  Mitsu Ishii: so the most I do is open myself to the possibility, via view as well as practice, but not in an active way trying to make something happen (but also not passive in terms of waiting for something to happen, either)
[14:49]  Mitsu Ishii: that's the subtle thing: not trying to make it happen, but not sitting around waiting either
[14:49]  Gaya Ethaniel nods.
[14:49]  Pila Mulligan: sounds like a function related to prayer
[14:49]  Gaya Ethaniel: How so?
[14:50]  Pila Mulligan: 'not trying to make it happen, but not sitting around waiting'
[14:50]  Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... I don't understand it yet.
[14:51]  Gaya Ethaniel: Prayer is like willing/wishing I thought.
[14:51]  Pila Mulligan: having an intent without wilfulness, a wish more than an action
[14:52]  Gaya Ethaniel: So prayer in this sense is more like commitment?
[14:52]  Mitsu Ishii: well, I feel a subtle difference which is
[14:52]  Pila Mulligan: or an open receptive wishfulness
[14:53]  Zena Ponnier: must run, nite everyone!
[14:53]  Pila Mulligan: bye Zena
[14:53]  Mitsu Ishii: prayer feels to me like you're trying to ask some other being to "do" something whereas this is more like... the universe is already trying to settle itself, including you, in a "natural" way, but I am kind of leaning against it or resisting it
[14:53]  Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Zena :)
[14:53]  Mitsu Ishii: bye
[14:53]  Dao Yheng: In some traditions, you explicitly invite the help of the "refuge tree" and remember that you are part of a body of many sentient beings
[14:53]  Mitsu Ishii: so I just open up to the possibility and then the universe naturally flows differently
[14:53]  Gaya Ethaniel: One can ask oneself I guess in a larger context of me.
[14:53]  Dao Yheng: bye zena!
[14:53]  Pila Mulligan: praying to your Self
[14:53]  Mitsu Ishii: yes, something like that
[14:54]  Pila Mulligan: back to the Atman idea :)
[14:55]  Pila Mulligan: remember Michael Valentine Smith's religion in Stranger in a Strange land?
[14:55]  Timbo Quan: :)O
[14:55]  Pila Mulligan: Thou Art God
[14:55]  Pila Mulligan: Gok in the Fullness
[14:55]  Pila Mulligan: Grok*
[14:55]  Pila Mulligan: :)
[14:55]  Gaya Ethaniel: That book is popular at PaB it seems. I haven't read it yet.
[14:56]  Pila Mulligan: it is a fun novel
[14:56]  Pila Mulligan: sci-fi with a twist
[14:56]  Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Adele recommended :)
[14:56]  Pila Mulligan: are you familiar with the term 'grok, Gaya?
[14:56]  Gaya Ethaniel: mhm many many chats at PaB had been devoted to it last year.
[14:57]  Pila Mulligan: it was in common use for a while, maybe not much now
[14:57]  Gaya Ethaniel: :)
[14:58]  Mitsu Ishii: I've never read it though the "grok" term has become almost vernacular in the US at least.
[14:58]  Pila Mulligan: I see it even has a wiki page -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grok
[14:58]  Pila Mulligan: yep
[14:58]  Gaya Ethaniel: Really? No one uses that in UK at least people I've known.
[14:58]  Pila Mulligan: useful term originating from a novel
[14:58]  Mitsu Ishii: it's well known/understood in the US, especially in tech circles
[14:59]  Pila Mulligan: probably because Heinlein was popular among tech people
[14:59]  Mitsu Ishii: people just use it as a synonym for "understand" as in "I don't grok that" or "do you grok that"
[14:59]  Pila Mulligan: yep
[14:59]  Gaya Ethaniel: :)
[15:00]  Timbo Quan: tech people in UK know it
[15:00]  Gaya Ethaniel: ok :) Until you, I wasn't going around 'tech circle' Tim.
[15:01]  Gaya Ethaniel: Time's almost up. Better get ready for sitting and bed :)
[15:01]  Pila Mulligan: going back to the troublemaker idea, one thing thatmay be helpful is to consider the distinction between conflict and anger
[15:01]  Pila Mulligan: ah, bad timing :)
[15:01]  Mitsu Ishii: that's a good one
[15:01]  Dao Yheng: onigokko
[15:01]  Gaya Ethaniel: oh conflict and anger, would be a great topic to talk about next week?
[15:01]  Gaya Ethaniel: oh Dao ...
[15:02]  Dao Yheng: only if you run like that while you do it!
[15:02]  Dao Yheng: stop
[15:02]  Pila Mulligan: :)
[15:02]  Gaya Ethaniel: lol
[15:02]  Mitsu Ishii: good idea
[15:02]  Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks everyone. Lovely seeing you again!
[15:02]  Pila Mulligan: that script is cool because people do not bump each other
[15:02]  Mitsu Ishii: bye all
[15:02]  Pila Mulligan: bye for now
[15:02]  Mitsu Ishii is Offline
[15:03]  Gaya Ethaniel: Bye :)
[15:03]  Dao Yheng: thanks all -- good night!

(Gaya prompted Dao for the final onigokko!)