2009.05.28 - Workshop 15

The following is the transcript of the workshop for May 28th 2009.

 Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim
Stim Morane: Hi Scathach
arabella Ella: hiya Stim Scath
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Ara
Stim Morane: Hi araella, Mick
Mickorod Renard: Hi Stim
Fefonz Quan: Hey all :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Mick, Gaya, Fefonz
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello all :)
Stim Morane: Hi Fefonz, Pila, Gaya, Storm
arabella Ella: hiya Gaya Pila Storm
Mickorod Renard: Hi Pila
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pila, Storm
Mickorod Renard: Gaya
Pila Mulligan: hi everyone (looks like a laggy day:)
Mickorod Renard: yes,,I am sruggling
Gaya Ethaniel: yes Mcik?
Mickorod Renard: with lag
Gaya Ethaniel: yeah ... took 3 times to get here as well.
Mickorod Renard: ohh noo
Mickorod Renard: you had probs the other night too Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: yeah ah well :)
Gaya Ethaniel: wb Storm
Mickorod Renard: Hi Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Everyone :)
arabella Ella: hiya Eliza
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello eliza, Wester
Eliza Madrigal: Rezzing... to make sure I don't sit on anyone's lap :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Stim Morane: Hi Eliza, Wester
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Stim Morane: We might as well begin ...
Wester Kiranov: hi all
Stim Morane: This session might be pretty short. I'd like to concentrate on a discussion with you all regarding what our next workshop theme should be, and how it should be treated.
Stim Morane: I've tried a few simple approaches so far ... first, discussion based on the use of some very basic contemplative techniques guided by several "views"; second, an approach emphasizing ethical precepts.
Stim Morane: This latter was not driven by any desire on my part to make people behave or "be good", but by the fact that such precepts can provide the ground for a useful form of contemplation in ordinary life.
Stim Morane: I think we're wrapping up that latter workshop at this point.
Stim Morane: If today is the last day, what would you like to mention re that approach and your findings?
Stim Morane: Any comments?
Pila Mulligan: the ethics workshop was the best thing on Sl I've seen :)
Stim Morane: Well, I certainly liked your wiki piece, Pila!
Mickorod Renard: I enjoyed it very much,,and has made me more contemplative in everyday matters too
Stim Morane: Beyond that, I don't know ...
Pila Mulligan: thanks, but I was referring to your whole presentation, Stim :)
Gaya Ethaniel: It has given me different ways to view how I go about my life, which I will continue to apply. :)
Stim Morane: This is all very strange ...
Stim Morane: My impression was that we didn't really start.
Stim Morane: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Paying attention in a focused way... looking specifically at patterns around 'one thing', was/is interesting
Pila Mulligan: part of the disconnect may be the venue
Stim Morane: It's an interesting example of the peculiar nature of SL vs RL meetings, I guess.
Pila Mulligan: yep
arabella Ella: could you say more Stim please ... we did not really start?
Stim Morane: I see, Eliza.
Fefonz Quan: I also felt it was a start, but a very good dtart :)
arabella Ella: i think we did ... but ...
Eliza Madrigal: and yes, to me seems like it was just beginning
Fefonz Quan: start*
Stim Morane: :)
Stim Morane: It's a funny situation.
Mickorod Renard: yes,,and I was in much diolog on the subject with others after your class too
Stim Morane: I'm certainly learning something from all this, but I'd hate to say exactly what ...
Mickorod Renard: through your stimulation
Stim Morane: I see, Mick.
Stim Morane: So, should we move on to another topic, or try to keep the ethical precepts angle going too?
arabella Ella: what do you think we should do Stim?
arabella Ella: what are your preferences?
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
arabella Ella: hey
Mickorod Renard: and what new subject should we move too?
Mickorod Renard: hi Yak
Stim Morane: My preference is to be useful.
Fefonz Quan: hey Yaku
arabella Ella: cool
Stim Morane: Hi Yaku
Stim Morane: The "new subject" is the one Fefonz keeps trying to sneak in ...
Stim Morane: Fefonz? CommentsL
Mickorod Renard: oh yes
arabella Ella: ehrm ... which is ... ??
Eliza Madrigal: :)
arabella Ella: Fef?
Stim Morane: Comments?
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Fefonz Quan rolls his eyes around innocently
Stim Morane: You're very innocent, but tricky too.
Mickorod Renard: the duality thingy?
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Stim Morane: he would like to discuss codependent arising
Stim Morane: I keep ducking the issue.
Fefonz Quan: blaming fefonz while he keeps awake at midnight here is not nice :)
Stim Morane: But if someone keeps brining it up, I almost feel obliged to respond.
Stim Morane: OK, we're very appreciative of your persistence, Fefonz.
arabella Ella: codependent arising?
Wester Kiranov: can we keep this subject from becoming too abstract?
arabella Ella: hey it is nearly midnight here too
Stim Morane: Wester, that's a good question.
Fefonz Quan: i don't push it any farther, it's in your hand Stim.
Stim Morane: Well let's slow down.
arabella Ella: but ... i think i need someone to say what codependent arising is in simple terms too
Fefonz Quan: i guess you have good ducking causes
Stim Morane: The first part of my question was: should we keep the precepts angle alive too in this group?
Stim Morane: Or do you want to simply move on?
Stim Morane: Votes?
Pila Mulligan: 'too' as in both?
Eliza Madrigal is very interested in that topic as well, so happy either way. Both might divide attention?
arabella Ella: precepts angle?
Pila Mulligan: I like both, evenif not simultaneusly :)
Mickorod Renard: I am happy to do both,,but maybe nurse into the new one slowly
Wester Kiranov: I don't know - would those different angles reinforce each other or just muddle things up?
Stim Morane: Either we move on to treat codependent arising, or we do a bit of that along with a continuation of the precepts experiment.
Stim Morane: They could reinforce each other.
Pila Mulligan: sounds fine
Eliza Madrigal: great
Gaya Ethaniel: Would it be possible to have the practices suggested previously going in the background so that we can discuss experiences when it is relevant
Gaya Ethaniel: ?
Stim Morane: Remember, my only interest here in discussing "ethical" precepts is that they provide a simple way to practice contemplation in ord life.
Stim Morane: Gaya, you mean the precepts stuff, or the previous workshop practices I taught?
Fefonz Quan: i thought thatthe ethical precepts were interestings,but also felt that they show sympthoms or more basic issues
Gaya Ethaniel: Using precepts in daily life and in my case continue apply view in sittings etc
Fefonz Quan: of more*
Wester Kiranov: Maybe the precepts will be usefull for grounding the discussion. So, both.
Stim Morane: I will continue to discuss the implications of working with precepts of conduct for as long as there are two people present each week who have explored one or more of these precepts during the previous 7 days and can present findings.
Stim Morane: OK.
Stim Morane: If we don't have that degree of involvement, we drop the topic
Gaya Ethaniel: Sounds fair Stim
Mickorod Renard: ok
Stim Morane: OK. Sorry to insist, but there's just no point in talking without practice.
Fefonz Quan nods
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Stim Morane: So, who are our two volunteers for next week re that?
Stim Morane: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: <--- volunteer
Stim Morane: thanks
Stim Morane: another?
Eliza Madrigal: Are we still on intoxication?... or...?
Wester Kiranov: Precept of your own choice?
Stim Morane: you get to choose
Mickorod Renard: I will do one
Stim Morane: OK. So pick one, remind yourself each morning, note lapses, investigate, learn.
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm easy, choose one Mick if you'd like :)
Stim Morane: Then bring your experience back to the group
Mickorod Renard: smoking my cigars
Stim Morane: :)
Mickorod Renard: is that ok?
Gaya Ethaniel: Intoxication then ok :)
Stim Morane: remember, the point of these precepts is not to "avoid doing X", but to see the ways in which we leave authentic being.
Mickorod Renard: well,,i cud manage that,,they are strong cigars
Stim Morane: Don't make the exercise into something supressive or trivial. Make it relate to life in the larger sense.
Stim Morane: ANyway, if you want to email me re your experiment during the week for more comments or guidance, fine.
Gaya Ethaniel nods and makes a note.
Mickorod Renard: ok thanks
Stim Morane: ANd on this topic, would anyone like to report a precept-related finding now?
Gaya Ethaniel: ok thank you Stim :)
Stim Morane: Something you noticed from your investigation over the past week?
Mickorod Renard: only that now I look at not lying I notice that the world is almost all a lie
Wester Kiranov: I found out that when you intoxicate yourself, you don't just not see your situation, you also do not see the intoxicant itself.
Stim Morane: I'm sorry if this exercise is turning you into a cynic.
Stim Morane: :)
Stim Morane: That's interesting, Wester.
Stim Morane: Say more?
Mickorod Renard: no dont wrry
Stim Morane: :)
Wester Kiranov: (hubby coming in now so conversation may bne a bit patchy)
Stim Morane: oh, ok
Stim Morane: later, maybe.
Stim Morane: Your comment, Wester, echoes a great many points in traditions like Buddhism.
arabella Ella: yes?
Stim Morane: People expect that things like "nirvana" or "enlightenment" should be hard to understand.
Stim Morane: But they don't realize that the other, more problemmatical stuff like "samsara", attachment, heedlessness, etc are also hard to see.
Stim Morane: We are blind to blindness.
Stim Morane: This is the crucial point, really.
arabella Ella: do you mean we are blind and dont realise we are blind Stim?
Stim Morane: If we can see our "intoxication", our unawakeness, we can use that to move forward in very positive ways.
arabella Ella: metaphorically speaking i mean?
Stim Morane: But usually we don't notice it at all.
arabella Ella: ok
Mickorod Renard: as you noticed with me,,its moving in the positive way that smy prob
Eliza Madrigal: we see the effects only?
Stim Morane: well, ara, we literally don't see that we are using a form of unawakeness in our approach to life, even in our approach to "meditation"
Stim Morane: It takes a long time to realize this, usually
Stim Morane: Once we start to clue in, meditation becomes easier and more helpful.
arabella Ella nods
Stim Morane: Anyway, thanks for the comments.
Fefonz Quan: do you mean the 'progress' aproach
Mickorod Renard: or removal of filters?
Stim Morane: I'm just saying we use heedlessness without knowing, even in trying to free ourselves of it.
Stim Morane: we are "intoxicated" by everything, and don't realize it.
Gaya Ethaniel nods...
Stim Morane: We've already talked about that, and perhaps can come back to it later.
arabella Ella nods ... we are intoxicated by so many things ...
Stim Morane: Even meditation itself ...
Stim Morane: even "realization" itself!
Wester Kiranov: (hubby's gone now - I'm back)
Stim Morane: :)
Stim Morane: so that's a point we can explore more later.
arabella Ella: or intoxicated by food or pleasure or self righteousness or other stuff too
Gaya Ethaniel: A useful thing I picked up is not to be 'unhappy' during making progress if that makes sense.
Gaya Ethaniel: during.about*
Stim Morane: Yes, ara .. of course, we should certainly appreciate and enjoy them
Stim Morane: Gaya, that's very important
Stim Morane: so again, it seems we have some ground to return to ...
Stim Morane: Fefonz, would you like to introduce your interest in codependent arising?
Stim Morane: I take it that you have already read about it, etc?
Fefonz Quan: i wouldn't want to introduce it as a personal issue, if you think other won't benefit from it we shouldn't get into it
Stim Morane: I'm willing to try.
Fefonz Quan: yes i did.
Stim Morane: It doesn't make sense for me to invite suggestions and then refuse them.
Stim Morane: I didn't want to tackle codependent arising in PaB, because that would be unfair to that group.
Stim Morane: Perhaps here we can do a little bit.
Stim Morane: Anyway, please say more, Fefonz.
Fefonz Quan: mostly it interests me, because i feel that the basic obstacles we face are wrongs views of the world, reality, ourselfs, etc.
Stim Morane: Yes, very true.
Fefonz Quan: and from the little i read i thought it is one of the more basic ways to demonstrate or explain this ignorance, this wrong view.
Stim Morane: What about others here ... how many of you know a bit about that topic?
Wester Kiranov: a bit
Stim Morane: codependent arising?
arabella Ella: nothing
Scathach Rhiadra: a little
Mickorod Renard: not much
Eliza Madrigal: Have noticed it more and more in recent weeks, so a little
Fefonz Quan: and (maybe ) more over, a quite'logic' or straight forward look into the 'correct' view
Gaya Ethaniel: not much I'm afraid
Stim Morane: Yes, Fefonz.
Stim Morane: OK, thanks, Gaya.
Stim Morane: Wasn't there a group or workshop already on that topic?
Stim Morane: I vaguely recall someone doing it.
Stim Morane: Probably it was a different SL group, I guess.
Stim Morane: OK
Scathach Rhiadra: some of the phenomenology explorations covered arising and dependent coarising
Fefonz Quan: not that i know of. pheno touched it maybe, but from different angles.
Stim Morane: I see.
Gaya Ethaniel: I only know that seeing oneself separate is not helpful ... how love/compassion helps bridging the gap/separation ... not the concept
Stim Morane: I see, Gaya. Well I hope we can retain that emphasis along the way, since it's a good one.
Stim Morane: It's a very big topic. We'd have to find our own, novel approach to it.
Gaya Ethaniel: ok :)
Stim Morane: Historically, it has meant many things.
Stim Morane: Different groups of practitioners within Buddhism have had diff angles on it.
Stim Morane: I would not want to drap you all through that history.
Stim Morane: But on the other hand, we'd have to mention a few bits, just to focus the topic from time to time.
Stim Morane: the term used by the tradition was: Pratityasamutpada
Stim Morane: "dependence (pratitya) upon conditions that are variously originated (samutpada)."
Stim Morane: This means many things, and I think one of the reasons why we should consider it here, in this workshop, is that it also fits our modern perspectives well too.
Stim Morane: It's very congenial to the views of science.
Stim Morane: But it's also, in its traditional use, quite different from those modern views.
Stim Morane: So starting next week, I guess I would tackle a traditional understanding each week, for perhaps four weeks.
Stim Morane: Then we'd go on to several, quite different angles found in science.
Mickorod Renard: sounds good Stim
Stim Morane: This is necessary because otherwise we would be likely to import such modern views without realizing it.
Stim Morane: We would be able to see the difference.
Stim Morane: Many scholars have actually already made this mistake.
Stim Morane: For instance, I suggest that for homework, you read the wikipedia blurbs on this topic.
Stim Morane: We will them discuss and assess them next time.
Stim Morane: Just look up pratityasamutpada and also "Indra's net" too
Pila Mulligan: Stim, is there a relationship between pratityasamutpada and dharma, in doctrine or philosophy?
Stim Morane: Yes, in many different ways, Pila.
Stim Morane: What was your thought re this?
Pila Mulligan: just an interest :)
Stim Morane: OK
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, have always loved Indra's Net... didn't realize is same idea?
Eliza Madrigal: well, not always..heh
Stim Morane: "dharma" is a ver broad term ... it's like the word "thing" in English, in its scope of application.
Stim Morane: Eliza, I will claim that it's a very relevant and in some ways mistaken angle on "codependent arising" ... or at least a misleading one.
Eliza Madrigal: ah, interesting
Stim Morane: Buddhists like making lists of "dharmas" because they wanted to become clear about all the factors that figure in the teaching and in our experience of the truth of the teaching.
Stim Morane: These factors = dharmas.
Stim Morane: There are a great many.
Pila Mulligan: I was thinking along the lines of causation, though
Stim Morane: Yes.
Stim Morane: We'll have to discuss that starting next week.
Stim Morane: Causation plays a role here, for sure.
Storm Nordwind likes the similarity to the pre-Christian Germanic pagan term "Wyrd" and also the "Web of Wyrd"
Stim Morane: say more, Storm?
Storm Nordwind: Only that the interconnectedness of all things is a central point of the cosmology of those peoples
Stim Morane: Oh.
Stim Morane: Would you be willing to tell us more about that, as we proceed with this topic in coming weeks?
Storm Nordwind: I can do so if you wish, if others have interest. It used to be a central part of my heathen religion before arriving at Buddhism
Gaya Ethaniel: Sounds interesting :)
Stim Morane: It would certainly be relevant.
Eliza Madrigal: yes very
Stim Morane: There is no reason why we have to be restrictive here.
Wester Kiranov: sounds good
Stim Morane: I just want to avoid MIXING UP different views.
Storm Nordwind: exactly so!
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Stim Morane: I'm sure your comments would help us become more clear about the diff views.
Stim Morane: Fefonz, I'm interested in your brief account of your interest in this topic.
Fefonz Quan: didn't i say some things already?
Fefonz Quan: or maybe i don't understand the question.. :)
Stim Morane: I'm sorry, Fefonz, I'm not sure to what you're responding ...
Fefonz Quan: [14:54] Stim Morane: Fefonz, I'm interested in your brief account of your interest in this topic.
Stim Morane: Yes. Well I am!
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Stim Morane: I look forward to hearing more. :)
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Stim Morane: And the same applies to all of you.
Stim Morane: THis won't work if it doesn't bring out your own views.
Fefonz Quan: could you rephrase 'brief account of interests?'?
Stim Morane: oh, let's just say I'll want to know more about what you've read, thought about, concluded, etc.
Stim Morane: We can do that next time, hopefully.
Stim Morane: Is that OK?
Fefonz Quan: ok, anytime. surely one of the main reasons i brought it up is that i didn't think i got it all ...
Fefonz Quan: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: You may as well Fefonz, you raise it >.<
Stim Morane: So, I'll have to leave in a moment. Let's thank Fefonz for adroitly guiding us into this ...
Stim Morane: :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes, thanks Fef :)
arabella Ella: thanks Stim thnks Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: _/!\_
arabella Ella: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: yes thank you :)
Wester Kiranov: thank you all
Pila Mulligan: mahalo
Mickorod Renard: yes cool
Mickorod Renard: thankyou
Fefonz Quan: Thanks Stom for taking on this teaching
Fefonz Quan: Stim*
Gaya Ethaniel: Enjoy your day/night all :)
Stim Morane: See you then. MEanwhile, remember the ethics homework!!!
Pila Mulligan: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Stim, nice session
Stim Morane: Two volunteers will report next Thurs
Stim Morane: Bye everyone!
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Stim, thank you
Storm Nordwind waves
Mickorod Renard: bye Stim
Wester Kiranov: bye
Fefonz Quan: Bye Stim
arabella Ella: bye stim
Mickorod Renard: bye everyone
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks everyone... have to go :)
arabella Ella: bye
arabella Ella: i must go too
Pila Mulligan: bye everyone also
Fefonz Quan: bye Mick, Eliza
arabella Ella: nite everyone
Gaya Ethaniel waves
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now!
Mickorod Renard: byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Scathach Rhiadra: good night all, Namaste
Fefonz Quan: night Ara Gaya
Fefonz Quan: Night Scath