2009.06.25 - Workshop 19

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    The following is the transcript of the workshop for June 25th 2009.

    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Scath :) How are you?
    Scathach Rhiadra: hello Gaya:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: I’m fine, and you?
    Gaya Ethaniel: A bit tired otherwise well thanks :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: did you work out the chat log with Stim?
    Gaya Ethaniel: No reply - assuming he's ok with it.
    Scathach Rhiadra nods, he probably is, just thought it was worth checking:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes - no reply is good I think, well I hope.
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Stim :)
    Stim Morane: Hi Scathach, Gaya!
    Scathach Rhiadra: How are you today?
    Stim Morane: we'll find out shortly
    Stim Morane: half awake, perhaps
    Stim Morane: And you?
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ...
    Scathach Rhiadra: I'm fine thanks
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good thanks :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: You are unwell Stim?
    Stim Morane: no, just busy
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya, Scath
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Stim
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yakuzza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Yakuzza
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello eliza, Yakuzza
    Stim Morane: Hi Eliza, Yakuzza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello Fef
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick and Fefonz :)
    Stim Morane: Hi Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: Hello all :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz, Mick
    Stim Morane: Hi Mick
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Shyma, hello
    Mickorod Renard: heyyy,,Stim
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Shyama :)
    Mickorod Renard: Gaya
    Stim Morane: Shyama
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Shyama
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Scath
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Pila
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Wester :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello Pila
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pila
    Stim Morane: Hi Pila
    Pila Mulligan: greetings everyone
    Mickorod Renard: Westerrrrrr
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Wester :)
    Stim Morane: Hi Wester
    Wester Kiranov: hi everybody
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello Wester :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wester
    Stim Morane: So ... let's begin.
    Stim Morane: Mick, is it OK w you if we start w your homework?
    Mickorod Renard: sure,,is it ok?
    Stim Morane: would you like a grade?
    Stim Morane: :)
    Fefonz Quan: (brb)
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Stim Morane: 1st, could you make sure everyone has it?
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,I will pass it around
    Stim Morane: thanks. I'll be right back.
    Stim Morane: back
    Stim Morane: so please read Mick's lovely essay on his experience and insight
    Mickorod Renard: is that everyone?
    Fefonz Quan: (back)
    Pila Mulligan: thanks Mick
    Gaya Ethaniel: ty
    Wester Kiranov: I don't have it yet
    Shyama Sheryffe: ty
    Mickorod Renard: hang on wester
    Stim Morane: Does anyone have some thoughts or insights re how Mick's perspectives relate to our workshop topic?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aurora
    Stim Morane: Aurora
    Aurora Kitaj: Hello everyone :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Aurora
    Eliza Madrigal: Just that I relate "When ___ happens, then ____"
    Mickorod Renard: ok cool,,hiya aurora
    Shyama Sheryffe: hi Aurora
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Aurora :)
    Aurora Kitaj: Hi Scath
    Stim Morane: other comments?
    Scathach Rhiadra: not being present now
    Mickorod Renard: dont worry about offending me,,i am too old
    Gaya Ethaniel: I used to do the same - emphasising focus by zooming onto a particular section of now.
    Stim Morane: Yes, a universal problem.
    Stim Morane: Mick, your observations are very closely related to the pt of the sunyata/emptiness teaching, which is one way of referring to the Buddhist angle on codependent arising.
    Fefonz Quan: can relate to that too, mostly from past experiences
    Mickorod Renard: great
    Stim Morane: it is precisely this tunnel vision, being constricted by all sorts of framing influences, that the tradition seeks to open up, free us from.
    Gaya Ethaniel: The way I meditate now would be considered as multi-tasking in the past by myself.
    Stim Morane: Gaya, please go on.
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh ... that's it Stim >.<
    Stim Morane: OK
    Stim Morane: thanks
    Stim Morane: note that I just referred to the "Buddhist angle" ... I did that because later in this short series I will discuss other views of codependent arising that aren't meant to have this liberating aspect.
    Gaya Ethaniel: [Some of us heard of me talking of dancing or playing music the other day]
    Stim Morane: anyway, my present concern is to help you all see how the Madhyamaka version of this teaching bears on Mick's description.
    Stim Morane: Any thoughts re that, anyone?
    Eliza Madrigal: funny that what Mick describes 'feels/seems like' stagnant/stuck rather than "going", but one's attention is going elsewhere
    Stim Morane: yes
    Fefonz Quan: somehow I found it more connected to the 1st description
    Shyama Sheryffe: wonders what is codependent rising
    Stim Morane: it is indeed a certain version of "going" that actually closes us in.
    Stim Morane: Shyama, we will have to refer you to our wiki, I think.
    Stim Morane: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
    Shyama Sheryffe: k, sry
    Stim Morane: some are "spiritual" in intent, others are not
    Stim Morane: Basically, we are exploring a range of diff ideas and insights that loosely relate to that phrase
    Stim Morane: right now, we're considering a version that originated in the beginning of the Common Era, i.e., about 2000 years ago
    Stim Morane: The emphasis in that version is that we get trapped by "posits", allegations that pervade our mind, feelings, etc., setting up an apparent entrenched reality that in fact is very claustrophobic
    Stim Morane: ... and also, in fact, "empty"
    Stim Morane: So the point is that we bury ourselves in things that in fact don't really have that power--if we see them more clearly.
    Stim Morane: Mick's description of this is very apt.
    Stim Morane: Hi sophia
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello sophia :)
    sophia Placebo: hi stim :) all
    Fefonz Quan: hey Sophia
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sophia :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Sophia
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Sophia
    Wester Kiranov: hi sophia
    Stim Morane: does everyone see something of what I mean, and the connection to Mick's homework piece?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Gaya Ethaniel nods. It's constant almost all the time ... mind going here there changing.
    Stim Morane: the homework suggested last time centered on investigating the way that being a "goer", caught up in "going" etc actually bogs us down, narrows our appreciation of life.
    Stim Morane: Yes, Gaya
    Fefonz Quan: ah, I saw it a little differently...
    Stim Morane: what I was describing is not the "going" involved in walking across the street, but that involved in the "samsaric mind", the mind that filters out the spiritual dimension of life.
    Stim Morane: Yes, Fefonz?
    Fefonz Quan: just thought of the 2nd description, where goer going and destination codepend. Didn’t focus on the narrow issue
    Stim Morane: Yes, good, Fefonz
    Stim Morane: you should investigate before drawing conclusions
    Stim Morane: I don't want you to "believe" that it's narrowing, but to see for yourself.
    Aurora Kitaj: Sorry everyone, I have to go. So nice to see you all again. Have a good evening
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah your homework is on wiki as well Fefonz :)
    Stim Morane: Sure, Aurora
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Aurora :)
    Fefonz Quan: yep :)
    Mickorod Renard: bye aurora
    Wester Kiranov: bye aurora
    Fefonz Quan: bye auroroa
    Fefonz Quan did some investigation...
    Mickorod Renard: ;)
    Stim Morane: reading Fef's homework on the wiki now ...
    Stim Morane: Yes, Fefonz, a nice report.
    Fefonz Quan: (that's LIFO, other wrote their before me)
    Stim Morane: This too is very relevant, although as you say, it's pting at a diff aspect of the issue.
    Stim Morane: That's quite OK.
    Gaya Ethaniel thinks she's going to write to Stim's publishers to reprint.
    Stim Morane: Your emphasis is on the nature of codependent arising, as unpacked in a particular way.
    Stim Morane: This is very central to our work together.
    Stim Morane: I will be talking more about this angle later, when we consider secular aspects of the basic theme
    Stim Morane: But you're right, a rainbow is a classic case of codepedence.
    Stim Morane: *pendence
    Fefonz Quan: I did fail to see the self as codependent though
    Pila Mulligan: but you were tickled :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Stim Morane: that's more difficult, because the sense of self is so entrenched
    Stim Morane: but you made a good start
    Fefonz Quan: yep...
    Stim Morane: by doing more along the same lines you started w, it will gradually loosen up
    Stim Morane: just the fact that you noticed it's being more stubborn is already a good start
    Stim Morane: take it 1 step further ... can you see that because we usually DON'T appreciate this codependence nature, we end up grasping at things and getting stuck in the way that Mick described?
    Fefonz Quan: sure
    Stim Morane: i.e., we grasp at things AS THOUGH they had a more independent existence than they do
    Fefonz Quan: easier to see with people
    Stim Morane: yes, perhaps
    Stim Morane: we will each find a diff path to the insights mentioned here
    Fefonz Quan: money, too.
    Stim Morane: So if you and Mick got together and compared notes, you could help each other take this homework further, Fefonz.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm finding difficult dealing with wants.
    Stim Morane: yes, that is one of the main applications of this, Gaya
    Fefonz Quan: wants like desires?
    Stim Morane: the "wanted thing", the "wanter" and the "wanting"
    Mickorod Renard: phew,,i have a few desires
    Stim Morane: see these more clearly, in their immediacy.
    Fefonz Quan: that's only you mick :)
    Gaya Ethaniel nods.
    Stim Morane: the "wanted thing" is not intrinsically valuable, it only gains that aspect because of the interdependence
    Stim Morane: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: At one point, I saw myself as a hungry ghost on earth ... felt quite low after that.
    Stim Morane: yes, I understand
    Stim Morane: in fact, each of us is that hungry ghost sometimes
    Fefonz Quan too
    Stim Morane: and yet, we can let it go completely if we understand what is being discussed here.
    Stim Morane: Questions?
    Gaya Ethaniel nods. Dealing with each want doesn't work ... it seems.
    Fefonz Quan: somehow I feel it takes more than mere understanding
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Stim Morane: it takes "seeing"
    Stim Morane: and that in turn takes HOMEWORK
    Stim Morane: :)
    Stim Morane: practice
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Shyama Sheryffe: sry to leave, this is so interesting, goodnight all :)
    Stim Morane: you can't force seeing, but you can clear a space for it
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Stim Morane: you can never predict when it will emerge
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Shyama :)
    Wester Kiranov: goodnight shy
    Stim Morane: bye, Shyama
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Shyama
    Fefonz Quan: night shyma
    Stim Morane: so I'm claiming that you can check in now and then, and may notice something that has been there all along, but is usually not noticed.
    Stim Morane: And that it has this codependent character
    Stim Morane: which in turn makes it less coercive than usual
    Stim Morane: Makes sense?
    Gaya Ethaniel: clear a space for it - this makes sense Stim.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes.. this is the way we 'see through'?
    Mickorod Renard: think so
    Stim Morane: yes, Eliza ... by seeing what is really there, and the way it is there, you can see that it "isn't" ... it isn't what we thought.
    Stim Morane: It doesn't have the standalone reality we usually think, the characteristics, the allure, etc
    Stim Morane: this is all quite hard.
    Stim Morane: I warned about that
    Stim Morane: But perhaps our comments will someday become meaningful ...
    Fefonz Quan: though even if it is not standalone, and relate to us, it still relate with its special ways and manners
    Eliza Madrigal: and I take comfort when about that when I'm feeling dense
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Stim Morane: Eliza, people usually spend years learning to see what is discussed here.
    Stim Morane: I've spent decades on it.
    Wester Kiranov: I focused more on the time aspect of going - is that ok?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Eliza I found it useful to read past transcripts now and then again - something makes sense that didn't before.
    Stim Morane: Sure, Wester ... start wherever you like
    Eliza Madrigal: Gaya yes, thanks. :)
    Stim Morane: good point, Gaya.
    Gaya Ethaniel: yw :)
    Mickorod Renard: and perhaps at pab fef and I can discuss our two homeworks?
    Stim Morane: Fefonz, you just raised a pt that i will discuss at length in another session, later.
    Stim Morane: Mick, you can do that, as long as I don't get sucked into discussing this in PaB.
    Stim Morane: :)
    Fefonz Quan: sure Mick :)
    Mickorod Renard: ok Stim
    Gaya Ethaniel: Or you two can do that next time we meet for the informal session :)
    Fefonz Quan: right! (Is it Monday?)
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,that was what i was thinking
    Stim Morane: Wester, if you're going to use time, see the way "future" is interrelated to "present" and "present" to "past".
    Gaya Ethaniel: Mon 2 pm SLT next week (regular time not set yet - will send group notice out on Mon)
    Stim Morane: they are mutually defined, established
    Mickorod Renard: or my Tuesday PaB slot is open
    Stim Morane: I'm not talking about a theory or a philosophical idea here, but about "seeing" something that usually goes unnoticed.
    Wester Kiranov: sure. but I also noticed we tend to shrink the present to a point
    Stim Morane: say more, Wester?
    Fefonz Quan: as in the present depends on past events? (sounds a little obvious)
    Stim Morane: But seeing it directly, Fefonz, is very diff than thinking about it.
    Stim Morane: That is my concern.
    Stim Morane: I'm trying to introduce you to a realm of direct seeing that is beyond the ordinary mind altogether.
    Stim Morane: That is not so obvious.
    Wester Kiranov: there is more in my report. But in short: one tends to think of now a a point on the time line. But it's not
    Mickorod Renard: it’s funny, I tend to look at it as a cone opening up from past to present and on to future
    Fefonz Quan: so you don't mean that the present is just a mere result of past events?
    Wester Kiranov: or it's a very spacious point
    Gaya Ethaniel: I liked that 'spacious now' phrase :)
    Fefonz Quan: yes me too :)
    Stim Morane: Yes, I see, Wester. This is another angle on our concern here.
    Stim Morane: By seeing the limiting way that things support each other, setting up an apparent independently real situation, we can see the spaciousness you mention.
    Stim Morane: We aren't fooled, so we open up.
    Stim Morane: Otherwise, the "present" just sucks us forward, to the next thing, next thing ... "going".
    Stim Morane: No spaciousness.
    Stim Morane: OK?
    Mickorod Renard: nice
    Eliza Madrigal: yes!
    Gaya Ethaniel: It was surprising how all stuffs are stored away and I carry them all the time with me. If I can do that ... surely I can do anything.
    Stim Morane: interesting comment, Gaya.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I meant it sarcastically ... it must be tiring for me to be me.
    Fefonz Quan: or if you (us) stop putting all that energy in that carrying, how much energy will be left for other parts of life
    Stim Morane: yes, I understand.
    Stim Morane: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Stim Morane: we are carrying around a whole world that has limited status, in fact.
    Stim Morane: we can let it go ... without getting rid of it in a biased way.
    Mickorod Renard: maybe more
    Stim Morane: we can live in spaciousness without leaving anything
    Fefonz Quan: much easier said than done.
    Fefonz Quan: never seems to stop surprising how hard letting go is
    Gaya Ethaniel: But Fefonz, I think it's easier this way than going through really harsh experiences and learn.
    Fefonz Quan: that's a good point :)
    Stim Morane: yes
    Stim Morane: have we said enough about this piece to get you all started?
    Stim Morane: brb
    Wester Kiranov: or needing a couple of hundred lives, if you're a Buddhist :)
    Mickorod Renard: I get the idea the mind creates multi universes to run simulations of the future,,and past..that is all it is,,a simulation,,yet I think we hold onto those too much
    Fefonz Quan: or one second, if you are a Zen Buddhist Wester :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Wester Kiranov: that long?
    Fefonz Quan: me humble
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Wester Kiranov: :)
    Stim Morane: back
    Stim Morane: So ... I want to keep this particular workshop series very short ... because frankly to really explore this topic would take years, and a long of in-depth practice. I will therefore move on to a different angle on this topic next week, then another etc., until we've conducted a little overview of it.
    Stim Morane: Is that OK?
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok :)
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Wester Kiranov: you're the boss :)
    Fefonz Quan: ok :)
    Mickorod Renard: ok, although this last one was fun
    Eliza Madrigal would study this for years
    Stim Morane: Well, I know this was very quick, but the alternative is not very realistic, I think.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: What was the alt Stim?
    Stim Morane: Yes, I have studied it for 40 years, and am still noticing things about it.
    Stim Morane: All I can do is just introduce some things ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, Thank you Stim
    Gaya Ethaniel: Stim do you ever get angry?
    Mickorod Renard: that would be nice Stim
    Stim Morane: sure
    Stim Morane: Do you?
    Gaya Ethaniel: No way ...
    Stim Morane: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Of course I do.
    Fefonz Quan: (wonder if you have good books to recommend regarding Stim)
    Stim Morane: I'm not sure about books.
    Mickorod Renard: I thought you only got wrathful Stim?
    Stim Morane: Some of you were mentioning one last week, though ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Exactly that was my expectation :)
    Stim Morane: I don't attempt the wrathful aspect very often, because no one believes me ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: No way ...
    Mickorod Renard: ;)
    Stim Morane: unfortunately, I have to go at this point ... I've got a Kira meeting to attend.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Would you say the book Scath mentioned last week is ok for me to read at this stage Stim?
    Stim Morane: the teacher associated with that book is very famous.
    Stim Morane: I haven't read it, but certainly acknowledge his experience.
    Stim Morane: you may find it hard to get a copy, though
    Gaya Ethaniel: Why all good books are out of print? *big sigh*
    Stim Morane: we haven't gotten to the kinds of things I think he would be discussing.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I know for a fact, they don't make enough money >.<
    Stim Morane: anyway, see what you can do with your own experience in life. Thanks for the homework so far!
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok then I may read it later.
    Pila Mulligan: bye Stim, thanks
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you Stim and everyone.
    Mickorod Renard: bye Stim
    Eliza Madrigal has read too many parts of books lately
    Stim Morane: Bye!
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you very much Stim
    Wester Kiranov: thank you Stim, bye
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you everyone
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Stim, thank you
    Fefonz Quan: bye Stim, thanks
    Gaya Ethaniel: He seemed really busy today ...
    Eliza Madrigal must run.... hehe..made my family come home after seeing a movie before we go eat dinner...hehhe
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Eliza :)
    Pila Mulligan: bye Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Eliza
    Mickorod Renard: I bet if you wrote a book, gaya,,,' complete Buddhism in 3 days',,it would sell like hot cakes
    Mickorod Renard: bye Eliza
    Wester Kiranov: have to go too - hubby getting impatient
    Wester Kiranov: bye all
    sophia Placebo: bye Wester
    Pila Mulligan: bye Wester
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Wester :)
    Mickorod Renard: bye Wester
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Wester
    Fefonz Quan: http://www.snowlionpub.com/search.html?isbn=PRSTME
    Gaya Ethaniel: No Mick only 15 mins series go down ok these days.
    Fefonz Quan: I think this is the book we discussed?
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, that is it Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: and it can be purchased there too
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, Scath you read it right?
    Scathach Rhiadra: or Wisdom Books in UK have it too
    Gaya Ethaniel: Great - who else Stim's books that willing to lend?
    Scathach Rhiadra: http://www.wisdom-books.com/
    Gaya Ethaniel: Scath can you point out to me when Stim raise relevant points mentioned in the book? So that I read it then - don't want to confuse myself
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, I would have to read it again :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks much in advance :)
    [Scathach Rhiadra: might do that anyway :)
    sophia Placebo: I’ll go hunt for Iranians again I think , see you later
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye sophia :) Have fun.
    Fefonz Quan: bye Sophia :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Sophia
    Pila Mulligan: bye Sophia
    Pila Mulligan: are Iranians in season?
    Mickorod Renard: bye sophia
    sophia Placebo: oh and they say Michael Jackson died
    Scathach Rhiadra: I must go too, good night all, Namaste
    sophia Placebo: yes pila
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Scath :)
    Mickorod Renard: nameste
    Fefonz Quan: gnight Scath
     Gaya Ethaniel: Bye everyone, thanks again. I must go too ... late here.
    Mickorod Renard: nite Gaya
    Fefonz Quan: sleep well Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: ty you too!

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