2010.04.04 - Lojong 10 [The Five Forces/Tonglen]

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    .Gaya Ethaniel: Hello everyone :)
    Zen Arado: Hello all
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya, Dao, Zen :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Tim said hello, afraid can't make it today.
    Dao Yheng: Hi Eliza, Zen, Gaya
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, :::waves to TIm::::
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Dao Yheng: Mits is having trouble with his computer too -- he'll keep trying
    Eliza Madrigal: one sec... want to check that chat logs aren't picking up timestamps
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh I realised just now I forgot to send the weekly group notice ... must double check my alarms.
    Eliza Madrigal: >whew< seems to be working now
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: That's okay Gaya... was prob to be a quaint session today anyway :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cal :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Cal :)
    Dao Yheng: Hi Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: :) Hello
    Gaya Ethaniel: uh ... I didn't set the alarm to repeat correctly, fixed now. Will send notices ok from now on.
    Zen Arado: like the cap :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Calvino :)
    Calvino Rabeni: TY
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mitsu, glad you made it :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Mitsu :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mitsu :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I enjoyed reading the wiki reports
    Eliza Madrigal: Long and interesting homework reports... Where shall we begin?
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, great Cal
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes thank you :)
    Dao Yheng: Eliza, I think you ended up writing two reports :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Did I? hehe
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think all of us agreed on a similar point re: momentum of practice/virtue.
    Mitsu Ishii: Sorry for not posting a report again! This time my excuse was a big opening last night at my art space when I was planning to write mine ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: np hope you had fun!
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... art can be a virtuous cycle :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I will be travelling again so will miss next class again
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, busy time for you Cal
    Dao Yheng: somewhere fun I hope?
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I will be in Thailand first, then another state in USA
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice!
    Dao Yheng: sounds great!
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zen Arado: great Cal !
    Eliza Madrigal: Shall we this week, go around one by one and give thoughts on 'The Five Forces"? What was most meaningful...
    Eliza Madrigal: there is a lot we said in our reports... but as we sit here today, I wonder what stands out
    Dao Yheng: what stood out for you, Eliza?
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Eliza Madrigal: Compassion
    Zen Arado: on the first one?
    Eliza Madrigal: the antidote for the ego trips.. the natural dedication of merit....
    Dao Yheng: and in Tonglen too?
    Eliza Madrigal: the spark of commitment and intensity...
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    Eliza Madrigal: the way of getting beyond the pull toward inauthenticity
    Eliza Madrigal: being willing to have our trips exposed
    Eliza Madrigal: And you, Dao?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I findd dedication of merit and Tonglen helpful and relevant in not identifying with smallness of self.
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm, nods
    Zen Arado: dedication of merit?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well, one sheds me/you framd of mind ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: My merit is your merit and your pain is my pain ... :)
    Zen Arado: ah ok
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Dao Yheng: yes, even admitting the possibility of including others can feel very refreshing :)
    Eliza Madrigal: it seems simple, but understanding that takes a kind of aspiration
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sometimes it feels like a relief.
    Eliza Madrigal: /me smiles
    Zen Arado: 'be intense'
    Zen Arado: about what?
    Eliza Madrigal: What do you think, Zen?
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zen Arado: worries about being too intense
    Zen Arado: about anything
    Calvino Rabeni: Are you an intense sort of person Zen? :)
    Zen Arado: don't know
    Calvino Rabeni: Then be intense about relaxing :)
    Zen Arado: hope not :)
    Zen Arado: :)
    Dao Yheng: yes, I had a similar kind of concern -- intensity can feel narrow if it's too one-sided
    Zen Arado: 'be laid back' then?
    Dao Yheng: My solution for this week was to be intense about being relaxed :)
    Mitsu Ishii: One of the stories Steven likes to tell is about how, when he was a student with Tarthang Tulku, new students would often arrive, and mock how relaxed he was
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Dao
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: like Shantideva?
    Mitsu Ishii: they would say how this was great, they are going to do everything 110% and be totally committed for the rest of their lives and so on
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's very difficult to be responsive if uptight ...
    Mitsu Ishii: one or two years later they were always gone
    Mitsu Ishii: and he was still there
    Eliza Madrigal: Ahhh, yes
    Zen Arado: Soto Zen, which I practice , seems more relaxed
    Eliza Madrigal: What an interesting point, Gaya....
    Calvino Rabeni: It is very difficult to be intense, if uptight
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think we talk about uptight vs. limp last year with Stim.
    Zen Arado: maybe it is more about commitment
    Gaya Ethaniel: Either state doesn't allow to be elastic/responsive.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Uptight breaks and too limp disspates, no momentum.
    Zen Arado: reminds me about avoiding distractins again
    Eliza Madrigal: responsiveness seems a key somehow... being able to respond to the situation/person at hand... not witholding
    Gaya Ethaniel: So relaxing is important like Dao said I think.
    Mitsu Ishii: for me I've always been incredibly lazy
    Gaya Ethaniel: In that being open ... it's possible to be friendly/inclusive.
    Calvino Rabeni: To respond fully seems like one form of intensity
    Zen Arado: I jump about too much from teaching to teaching....
    Mitsu Ishii: but for some reason I keep practicing, keep going to retreats and so on
    Eliza Madrigal: My grandfather always tells me that all the success he's had in life was a result of his trying to figure out how not to work :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Laziness as unwilling Mitsu?
    Eliza Madrigal: He wanted to be fishing
    Mitsu Ishii: no
    Mitsu Ishii: not unwilling, just lazy as in: I don't make "effort", I just sort of relax into practice and so on.
    Dao Yheng: oh, fishing is supposed to be a very good practice :)
    Zen Arado: usd to do a lot of fly fishing
    Mitsu Ishii: but I keep doing a little bit on and on and so forth.
    Gaya Ethaniel: So some things you have natural enthusiasm while other things you think you're lazy but in fact they are not your thing Mitsu?
    Zen Arado: but think it's a bit cruel now
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, because he had this love of fishing, he tried to get things working for him.... so he could be out on the boat :) [yes me too zen, actually]
    Mitsu Ishii: no, it's not that I don't have enthusiasm, it's that I don't push myself
    Dao Yheng: thinking back to Eliza's first comment -- I wonder if in some ways art can be a very good model for intensity -- because it is so open ended and yet very focused
    Zen Arado: but I eat fish so.....
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm not sure pushing is a good thing though ... building momentum by little by little is better don't you think?
    Mitsu Ishii: but over time, despite my "lazy" practice, my practice has deepened by huge amounts
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: ah 'just do it ' is best maybe
    Mitsu Ishii: when I first started, for example, even 5 minutes of sitting seemed like a long time
    Mitsu Ishii: now I could sit for hours and it seems the same as 1 second
    Mitsu Ishii: but I never made an "effort" at any point
    Mitsu Ishii: so for me, "intensity" doesn't mean effort -- it does mean a sort of commitment but not effort.
    Eliza Madrigal: Shantideva was thought to be a very lazy monk... and even in writing the Bodhicaryavatara, he said he did it to benefit himself/perfume his own mind... that if others benefited well good for them :)
    Zen Arado: well.. the more I sit the more I think my sitting isn't very good
    Eliza Madrigal: so to me the intensity is a kind of love... joy in practice
    Calvino Rabeni: The proverb on "familarization" seemed interesting and harder to stereotype than the other ones
    Mitsu Ishii: Yes, I have always taken very seriously the admonition not to think of sitting as a project
    Gaya Ethaniel: Indeed, I think enjoying practice is very helpful.
    Mitsu Ishii: so, for example, I was always strict about not judging my practice
    Eliza Madrigal: cultivating that
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe Shantideva was master of "familiarization"
    Mitsu Ishii: good, bad, whatever, it's just practice, that's it
    Zen Arado: but if you just sit and daydream...
    Mitsu Ishii: so I suppose I am lazy about effort but very strict about certain teachings
    Mitsu Ishii: No, I am absolutely strict about it: daydream, whatever: no judging.
    Eliza Madrigal: !!
    Gaya Ethaniel: During a RL meeting, there was a comment about this. If someone in the group who sits next to us comments on how we sit the way we sometimes do, how it would feel. Not very nice :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: sometimes do to ourselves*
    Mitsu Ishii: the reason I am strict about that is not that I think daydreaming is good for practice. It's that judging is very bad for practice!
    Calvino Rabeni: "Familiarization – get used to doing and being what you want to do and to be."
    Eliza Madrigal: nods @ Gaya ... acceptance
    Zen Arado: think concentration is important though
    Eliza Madrigal: Interesting idea Calvino re Shantideva, and yes I would agree that that one was trickier than the others in some ways...
    Mitsu Ishii: if you daydream, and then judge it, then it's difficult for you to actually work with the daydreaming.
    Calvino Rabeni: Settle into your own being / doing
    Calvino Rabeni: A way of not judging it
    Mitsu Ishii: because the daydreaming is just a phenomenon that should be worked with as it is.
    Mitsu Ishii: judging replaces reality with a label, and you can't work with a label
    Eliza Madrigal: /me thinks daydreaming can indeed be great practice... when settled in awareness
    Mitsu Ishii: so for me, it is crucial not to judge practice at all, to the extent possible. which is not the same thing as being lax about it or just sort of blobbing out
    Zen Arado: numbing or spacing out ?
    Dao Yheng: I do feel that a lot of the numbing or spacing out is directly related to the judging
    Zen Arado: creating pictures on the wall in front?
    Calvino Rabeni: I quite agree Mitsu
    Mitsu Ishii: I just mean the ordinary idea that we ought to strive for "good" things and go away from "bad" things is itself part of the habits we are meant to relax
    Zen Arado: still feel it needs some discipline though
    Mitsu Ishii: instead we participate in reality whatever comes up as fully as possible.
    Dao Yheng: we judge it, and then want to create a separation between what it is and ourselves
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni wants to speak in italics, hoping it will seem more "intense"
    Zen Arado: though I agree with most of what is being said
    Eliza Madrigal: Indeed Dao
    Dao Yheng: :) at Calvino!
    Mitsu Ishii: I suppose what I am saying is judging is itself a lack of discipline.
    Eliza Madrigal: the italics is just an after effect of my natural intensity, cal
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
    Mitsu Ishii: so I do advocate discipline: but not in terms of good vs bad.
    Gaya Ethaniel: True, it does execerbate the habit of things to be different in general.
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I see that also Mitsu
    Mitsu Ishii: discipline is more like: don't just let things activate your usual habits of believing in labels and so on.
    Zen Arado: well...I could ust sit and spend all my time thinking during meditation
    Mitsu Ishii: Suzuki used to say that just sitting in zazen posture is itself enlightenment.
    Zen Arado: I think I have to try harder than that
    Mitsu Ishii: this wasn't really strictly true but I think he meant it as a way to get his students to stop sitting with a certain problematic idea of what it is
    Dao Yheng: what happens when you meditate now Zen?
    Zen Arado: I just sit and keep bring my mind back to my body and breath
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, I don't relate to this idea of "trying" during sitting, somehow have forgotten what that might even mean
    Mitsu Ishii: That's a good practice, Zen
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps I'm lazy :)
    Zen Arado: but the bringing back is important I think
    Mitsu Ishii: It's just that, after your practice, if you found yourself still thinking despite that, it's best not to judge it.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think it's delicate ... everyone is at different stage, some may still need some vigilance while others need to start relaxing.
    Zen Arado: yes it's important not to get annoyed at yourself
    Eliza Madrigal: just putting ourselves in the posture/gesture... IS intensity IS commitment
    Zen Arado: cos that is just thinking
    Mitsu Ishii: well, again, I'm not suggesting a lack of vigilance.
    Mitsu Ishii: what I am suggesting is a lack of *judging* which is very different.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes Gaya... to the point about responsiveness... sensitivity... noticing what feeds what... white seeds/black seeds... momentum
    Mitsu Ishii: the normal idea is that our judging somehow helps us to get "better" but when it comes to this, it really doesn't.
    Zen Arado: yes I agree
    Dao Yheng: I love that feeling of stillness -- when it happens that body/breath are very present. For me, I have to be careful not to go chasing after that
    Gaya Ethaniel: This may help Zen. Once Steven said re: being firm about getting caught up with thoughts/daydreams by inviting them to sit with you.
    Mitsu Ishii: for example quite often I am at retreat and my first sit might just be filled with thoughts and so on. And even perhaps my second too.
    Gaya Ethaniel: So being firm about you wanting to relax/sit but friendly to what arises.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I often breath them in.
    Mitsu Ishii: But I just sit, and notice that, and don't judge it. I don't let it go wild or anythng, but it is what it is. I let my system deal with it.
    Mitsu Ishii: Then my third sit or whatever is often very different, very intense and clear.
    Gaya Ethaniel: That's how I do it, not a suggestion.
    Zen Arado: ok agree
    Eliza Madrigal: I used to sit for longer periods, but was advised not to let it run course endlessly... to stop when things seem just so, sometimes, as this will ignite joy and enthusiasm to come back
    Mitsu Ishii: but if I had gone "damn, that last sit was terrible" and so on, then that would not have helped.
    Mitsu Ishii: because the daydreaming itself has its own reality which you can explore.
    Eliza Madrigal: mmm, nods
    Calvino Rabeni: Judging is a lot of extra work, to create a whole abstract concept of self and then stand beside it
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, creating distance, as dao mentioned... hm
    Mitsu Ishii: and even when a so-called "good" sit occurs, I don't then go "wow, I am so great at this" either. It is also just what it is.
    Dao Yheng: Eliza, yes, that can be very fun -- I sometimes play with three 15 min sits rather than a 45 min sit can be quite wonderful
    Gaya Ethaniel: I did this experiment today. I pressed a finger onto my other hand and 'try to feel' both. I couldn't ... only one side at the time but as soon as I relax the experience was much more open.
    Zen Arado: sitting at retreats is different from sitting at home I think
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, its a very different orientation to do that Dao, than what we typically come into 'structured' meditation with..
    Calvino Rabeni: And I think, judging implies a disconnected emotional body, one that is holding an agenda
    Eliza Madrigal: makes it more a friend, in some ways, to feel free to play with times and settings and daydreams... :)
    Dao Yheng: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, no robot ... :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Friend to self - does not judge
    Mitsu Ishii: right, Calvino. it's like a manager who comes over to a worker who is having a problem and goes "you're doing a terrible job"
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm intense and committed about not being a spiritual robot!
    Mitsu Ishii: in what way does that help the worker?
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, the manager looking over one's shoulder
    Calvino Rabeni: this is negative self-consciousness
    Calvino Rabeni: There was a japanese zen word for it - which I've forgotten - anyone recall it?
    Calvino Rabeni: The "familiarization" idea cancels the judging / negative self consciouness split
    Mitsu Ishii: also, daydreams themselves can have some value. I find when sitting sometimes I'll daydream, but then sometimes as I settle into it, the daydreams transform into a kind of yogic wisdom
    Mitsu Ishii: the thoughts taken on this intense, insightful quality
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, quite interested in this aspect Mitsu
    Mitsu Ishii: and then they aren't even thoughts exactly but more like lightning bolts of intense brilliant vision
    Eliza Madrigal: /me smiles
    Mitsu Ishii: which are physical, energetic, etc.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think one often forget it is called 'practice' ... not 'perfection each time'.
    Calvino Rabeni: If one fully inhabits one's own current doing / being, it is intense but not judgmental
    Mitsu Ishii: daydreams are just a muddled version of that. so they should be respected as well.
    Eliza Madrigal: mmmmm, yes nodding at everyone :)
    Dao Yheng: :)
    Dao Yheng: Calvino, can you say something more about "The "familiarization" idea cancels the judging / negative self consciouness split" -- not sure I follow?
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni thinks, there should be a lojong proverb to say "don't expect the lights to flash and a bell to ring when you finally Get It"
    Mitsu Ishii: yeah, there's a Zen saying: Don't think you will necessary know you are enlightened
    Dao Yheng: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Daydreams for me are particularly useful to point areas that I need to pay attention to on practical level, things on one's mind.
    Calvino Rabeni: Famiilarization - you just do / be simply, without having it be controlled by an evaluating secondary viewpoint
    Dao Yheng: ah, ok -- thanks
    Eliza Madrigal: /me is feeling that we don't need to come up with more homework this week... but continue ... rich ground :)
    Mitsu Ishii: I agree
    Mitsu Ishii: we haven't even talked about tonglen much yet :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Dao Yheng: Sounds good
    Eliza Madrigal: Gaya, can you say more about that, re daydreams?
    Dao Yheng: yes, I do wonder if we could quickly touch on tonglen -- especially if anyone has some tips on the fear of diseases aspect :)
    Dao Yheng: (oh, gaya first!)
    Eliza Madrigal: he, sorry... stepping off toes
    Gaya Ethaniel: btw Zen, up until a few months ago, I used to sit usually 30 mins plus each time but these days it's hard to do without falling off so to speak for about 5 mins.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Initially I was confused but I realised now after poking around, it's just a stage I need to adjust/experiement so no need to feel disappointed.
    Mitsu Ishii: falling off? falling off what? your cushion?
    Gaya Ethaniel: rofl
    Zen Arado: yes why do we need to fixate on a certain time period?
    Gaya Ethaniel: uh ... what did this silly me say about daydream ... scrolls up.
    Eliza Madrigal: we can use timeframes but sad when we become captives to them
    Zen Arado: still doubtful about daydreaming though.....
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... chat lines are missing Eliza, pls IM me?
    Eliza Madrigal: :) okay
    Calvino Rabeni: Basically, does sitting seem more like "work" or like "vacation"?
    Mitsu Ishii: I do think it's sometimes helpful to just go, okay, we're sitting for 20 minutes. or whatever --- just that as a gesture of a form, without expecting it to be anything in particular. it can be 20 minutes of daydreams. but then again, I also agree with Eliza's idea that sometimes you can just stop when it feels like it is "over".
    Gaya Ethaniel: Falling off as in getting caught up Mitsu.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok, daydreams being useful -- they carry messages like dreams I mean Eliza.
    Zen Arado: I just sit quite neutrally I think
    Mitsu Ishii: so in that case, setting a time is a way of saying: it doesn't matter whether it is "good" or "bad", we're just sitting here for this time period whatever happens is okay.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Especially I look for some repeating themes.
    Mitsu Ishii: so ironically a time period can be a way of putting in less effort, rather than more.
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks, Gaya... yes makes me think of the inner teacher from weeks ago :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :) yw
    Zen Arado: but if I have just sat and fretted over some problem in my life the whole time ......
    Eliza Madrigal: for me it goes in cycles... so I think the idea of responsiveness and sensitivity is important... noticing and not being stuck
    Mitsu Ishii: Zen, what I recommend is that if that occurs, don't be so sure the sitting session was "worthless".
    Eliza Madrigal: we see when we go too far one way or not far enough
    Zen Arado: yes sometimes you just allow it
    Mitsu Ishii: because as you sat there fretting, your body/mind/energy is still learning.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Mitsu, I think the cause is things becoming more subtle, in fact it's a good thing :) But I do need to observe a few more month and tweak.
    Calvino Rabeni: During sitting I don't judge "content" at all, and set a minimum time, and am careful with the starting and ending transitions, but other than that it's without expectations either in advance or retrospectively
    Calvino Rabeni: And whatever happens is what needed to happen
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay... shall we touch on Tonglen... (notices Dao so patient :)
    Mitsu Ishii: even if it seems like a "waste" of the sit, in fact without those "wasted" sits the clear relaxed presence would be inaccessible.
    Calvino Rabeni: Agree mitsu
    Gaya Ethaniel: In fact, I'd be content if I don't skip practicing each day however long that is even 2 mins each day is good.
    Mitsu Ishii: there's always more going on that it appears (whether sitting or not)
    Zen Arado: good weather , stormy weather....
    Calvino Rabeni: or no weather
    Eliza Madrigal: (and btw I always have to read these logs again... wonderfully miss so much)
    Dao Yheng: (that's OK, Eliza -- next week is good -- I'll just keep sitting on my hands and fidgeting :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: A lot of lines missing on my screen so look forward to read it again here too.
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe Dao
    Mitsu Ishii: yes, I agree, Gaya: even three seconds of practice in a day if you do it every day is well worth it
    Eliza Madrigal: Its a brilliant question though, re the fear aspect of tonglen....
    Zen Arado: what is that?
    Calvino Rabeni: "be familiar" with your fidgeting - do it *completely*
    Dao Yheng: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: I always open the local chat window so I can see the chat history
    Gaya Ethaniel: What fears hey? :)
    Eliza Madrigal: how can we truly put ourselves in position of taking on others suffering...
    Zen Arado: oh yes I see
    Eliza Madrigal: its a powerful visualization...
    Zen Arado: we are doubtful of our capacity
    Eliza Madrigal: nods, and should be :)) heh
    Mitsu Ishii: for some reason tonglen always strikes me as an incredibly intense and liberating practice
    Zen Arado: P always says a limitless capacity develops in us
    Mitsu Ishii: P = Pema?
    Zen Arado: to take on the sufferings of the world
    Zen Arado: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh a PaB friend wrote a piece about fear she had had for a long time since childhood, maybe helpful -- http://playasbeing.wik.is/Guardians%27_Contributions/Fael/Who_is_Afraid%3f
    Eliza Madrigal: For me, this is why the 'raising bodhicitta' before tonglen is important... sitting in Compassion, resting in that, coming from that... not ourselves
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, thank you Gaya
    Dao Yheng: hmm, interesting -- thanks Gaya and Eliza too!
    Eliza Madrigal: I remember an audio of Steven talking about how much damage people can do going around trying to help....
    Eliza Madrigal: like "I" am going to help
    Dao Yheng: yup
    Zen Arado: it's sharing really I suppose
    Eliza Madrigal: and hah... well "We can't do it but what we are in a larger sense can" :)))
    Mitsu Ishii: yes, that is true
    Eliza Madrigal: /me obviously keeps that sentence in her pocket at all times
    Mitsu Ishii: A friend of mine sent me a link to her greatest fear
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes perhaps also breath in that fear .
    Mitsu Ishii: it was a prison designed by people who wanted to "reform" prisons and make them rehabilitative
    Zen Arado: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: it involved housing every prisoner in solitary confinement
    Dao Yheng: yikes!!!
    Eliza Madrigal: oh my
    Mitsu Ishii: it was a horrific place
    Mitsu Ishii: so yes, a lot of damage can be done by unmindful going around trying to "help" ... :|
    Zen Arado: sounds like it
    Eliza Madrigal: !
    Calvino Rabeni: Tonglen seems like a "remedial" practice of how to get back to being naturally present in an emotional sense and balancing out one's perspective
    Zen Arado: do-gooder syndrome
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: natural empathy
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: Even if I breath and get ill, Dao can handle it ... :)
    Zen Arado: not forced'we know what's best for you'
    Eliza Madrigal: Not sure Calvino... think it is a constant.. base practice/foundational... but takes on complexities ...
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay... well, I have to get going, much as I enjoy our company :)
    Zen Arado: me too
    Zen Arado: interesting
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks everyone :) Have a good week!
    Dao Yheng: aw -- OK, see you all next week
    Dao Yheng: thanks everyone!
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you so much, everyone :) Have a good week!
    Zen Arado: I spent so much time keeping up with reading didn't have time to say much :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: We can continue next week as Eliza suggested :)
    Dao Yheng: :) Maybe we'll be more "intense" about going around one by one next week :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni thinks of jesus on the cross - an intense image for this day and time of the class
    Zen Arado: with the rest of five forces?
    Eliza Madrigal: Yup! Go with the virtuous cycle
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think so.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Five forces and Tonglen.
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, Calvino.... we sit talking about taking on the suffering of the world
    Zen Arado: surrender
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye!
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye everyone!
    Zen Arado: bye all
    Dao Yheng: bye all!
    Mitsu Ishii: bye all

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