2010.08.12 - Virya Paramita

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    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Dao, Eliza, Heloise, Wol :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya, Heloise, Dao, Wol :)
    Dao Yheng: Hi Gaya, all!
    Gaya Ethaniel: I like your new outfit Wol :)
    Dao Yheng: Lovely to see you again (big smile pasted on face!)
    Wol Euler: ty :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Very romantic :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes its wonderful
    Wol Euler: from a store I'd never visited before
    Wol Euler: Nomine
    Agatha Macbeth: Evening all :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Yay :)) @ Dao, it is nice to *see* you too
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Agatha :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Agatha :)
    Agatha Macbeth: I forgot about this last week:(
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Gaya, everything ok?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes we missed you.
    Dao Yheng: Hi Agatha
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes thanks, have you finished building your plot now?
    Agatha Macbeth: SL seems to be getting busier! :p
    Agatha Macbeth: Yep
    Agatha Macbeth: All sorted
    Dao Yheng: are we ladies only today?
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh... building Agatha? great, will have to wander around
    Agatha Macbeth: I prefer it that way Dao :))
    Agatha Macbeth: Ok Liz
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Dao Yheng: brb, fixing a tiny work emergency
    Gaya Ethaniel: kk
    Agatha Macbeth: /me hates work emergencies
    Gaya Ethaniel: /me nods.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: The reports, I thought, were quite nice...
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: though it is funny that the paramitas DO seem one thing the more one works with them
    Gaya Ethaniel: Different expressions perhaps ...
    Eliza Madrigal: energy-toward-good as patience as generosity, etc
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: And I liked the way Zen came into patience/energy as a expressions of wu wei
    Dao Yheng: starting with a quote about the dangers of effort :)
    Eliza Madrigal: It reminded me of our koan weeks ago concerning resting in the openness of the sky
    Zen Arado: Hi all
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mitsu, Zen :)
    Mitsu Ishii: hi sorry, had to download SL
    Heloise Toussaint: Hi
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mitsu :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Zen :)
    Agatha Macbeth: And Mitsu
    Dao Yheng: Hi guys!
    Agatha Macbeth: The female bastion is breached...
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: /me giggles
    Wol Euler: o.O
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahh
    Eliza Madrigal: o.O <-- Wol gazing
    Wol Euler: /me smiles.
    Dao Yheng: ha!
    Agatha Macbeth: /me gazes at Wol
    Wol Euler: /me blushes
    Zen Arado: 'Once more into the breach.....
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Dear friends...
    Wol Euler: it won't work here though, I have nothing to report :) Didn't do my homework
    Gaya Ethaniel: Just making a nc for Mitsu and Zen ...
    Agatha Macbeth: Aww
    Zen Arado: ty Gaya
    Eliza Madrigal: "everything is preparation"
    Agatha Macbeth: We didn't say anything yet!
    Xeno Octavia: hi folks
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Xeno
    Gaya Ethaniel: That's alright Wol, you can still share your thoughts on the topic :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Xeno :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Xeno
    Gaya Ethaniel: I will IM Xeno with intro ...
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Gaya
    Eliza Madrigal: Zen, before you arrived we mentioned your report...
    Agatha Macbeth: Good job her second name's not Phobia
    Wol Euler: /me chortles
    Zen Arado: thanks
    Eliza Madrigal: Would you like to say a bit more about effort?
    Zen Arado: lot of effort went into that :)
    Eliza Madrigal: /me giggles
    Wol Euler: snap
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    Zen Arado: still struggling with idea
    Zen Arado: in an effortless way of course
    Gaya Ethaniel: /me slaps Agath's hands for being rude to the new visitor.
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) of course
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: I thought Xeno had been here before?
    Zen Arado: maybe need an example from life?
    Eliza Madrigal: I thought your report and dao blended so nicely together... the relaxing of effort and the 'watercourse way'
    Xeno Octavia: is philia not phobia!!
    Eliza Madrigal: *dao's
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'd like to hear a bit more about 'mud' from Dao ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: When she's back.
    Dao Yheng: the mud was my favorite part
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Xeno Octavia: she been --even went t a early morn in Japenese : )
    Dao Yheng: It was an interesting sitting session for me, just the way the image sort of kept revealing bits of this and that
    Dao Yheng: And I also really enjoyed Zen's angle on the whole thing
    Gaya Ethaniel: I loved the image but can you say a bit more about that sitting and virya?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Or ... was that about patience?
    Zen Arado: what number is your report Dao?
    Dao Yheng: The mud part in a way was about virya
    Zen Arado: ok I got it
    Dao Yheng: the part where it seemed possible to find some kind of resource, admist all the ups and downs (ebbs and flows)
    Gaya Ethaniel: The links are all on the frontpage.
    Dao Yheng: BTW, I sort of decided not to look at Zen's before writing mine, so thought it was neat the way they matched up a bit :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I liked the rootedness of mud ... if that's what you meant?
    Dao Yheng: yup, something like that
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah :)
    Dao Yheng: the root in the "gaps" as it were
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes like a tree ...
    Eliza Madrigal: Today I was working on something and wrote in the margin, that when someone has a direct connection with a vision, it is a kind of natural driving force...
    Dao Yheng: was thinking about how it was really the crevasses and small gaps in the silt that holds the water
    Zen Arado: it seems so hard not to reinforce a sense of self in any efforts
    Dao Yheng: yes, I was thinking about that too --
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ... a very nice image Dao.
    Eliza Madrigal: oh... like unintentional, or hidden places...
    Wol Euler: /me excuses herself quietly. I shall have to slip away, I'm really tired tonight.
    Zen Arado: we just exercise our talents really but we get so puffed up about things
    Wol Euler: goodnight all, take care.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Wol :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Nite Wol :) Sweet dreams
    Zen Arado: bye Wol
    Dao Yheng: night!
    Wol Euler: ty
    Agatha Macbeth: Night Wol, schlaf gut
    Dao Yheng: the bodhisattva vow is sort of this impossible undertaking, and from some angles, a non-sensical one
    Mitsu Ishii: Krishnamurti once remarked, near the end of his life: "Remain completely alert, and make no effort."
    Eliza Madrigal: yes! the scope is infinite
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think joyous effort points to the selfless part?
    Zen Arado: maybe it is after an effort that we add self congratulation?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Don't we forget about 'self' in the experience of joy?
    Eliza Madrigal: then there is a kind of ownership of result, you mean Zen?
    Zen Arado: if we can just stay in Now
    Zen Arado: we get puffed up about achievements
    Gaya Ethaniel: I wonder ... is it wrong to give oneself a pat in the back as an encouragement?
    Dao Yheng: (or even stuff we can't really take any credit for!)
    Gaya Ethaniel: It doesn't have to be problematic ...
    Agatha Macbeth: Probably not Gaya :)
    Dao Yheng: Memories of good experiences are just as dangerous as ones of bad, though
    Mitsu Ishii: Suzuki once said that pride in one's practice becomes a thick wall
    Mitsu Ishii: a barrier that traps you in essence
    Zen Arado: guess we need encouragement too
    Eliza Madrigal: I appreciated Gaya's mention of Stim's 'follow the energy' advice...
    Eliza Madrigal: especially having come from a retreat in which we did a kind of practice like that in the forest...
    Dao Yheng: yes, encouragement doesn't necessarily require pride
    Dao Yheng: yes?
    Eliza Madrigal: of just letting the forest speak... going toward (but not to!) what caught our attention...
    Zen Arado: self is so iingenious at creeping in
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: and if something else then came up on the way to one thing, to allow ourselves to follow that...
    Xeno Octavia: by self u mean ego
    Gaya Ethaniel: Guided by 'nature' not 'self' I guess ...
    Eliza Madrigal: yes...
    Xeno Octavia: ?
    Zen Arado: yes Xeno
    Eliza Madrigal: it was 'being seen' practice
    Eliza Madrigal: rather than seeing
    Eliza Madrigal: and it was restful... liberating
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: Ordinary effort, like trying to achieve enlightenment, certainly is self-defeating. But there's something else, a kind of thoroughness, which seems necessary
    Mitsu Ishii: I think I might replace "effort" with "thoroughness"
    Mitsu Ishii: if I were coming up with my own list
    Dao Yheng: that's an interesting angle
    Dao Yheng: virya is supposedly one of the more difficult words to translate
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, like completeness?
    Zen Arado: agree Mitsu
    Agatha Macbeth: /me looks up Virya
    Zen Arado: whole heartedness
    Mitsu Ishii: not exactly completeness, but more investigating thoroughly
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: not stopping at the surface
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ... as long as it's not obssessive thoroughness as in tick box 1, 2, 3 >.<
    Zen Arado: burning ourselves up completely in what we do
    Mitsu Ishii: being more thoroughly present, more thoroughly in a non-action THIS, suchness
    Mitsu Ishii: without effort
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thoroughness with flexibility ...
    Xeno Octavia: effortlessness
    Mitsu Ishii: right, thoroughness without effort somehow
    Agatha Macbeth: strenuous and sustained effort to overcome unskillful ways
    Dao Yheng: I think effort or action has a different meaning at different levels
    Agatha Macbeth: It says here
    Mitsu Ishii: I think that's kind of how I interpreted Krishnamurti's remark
    Eliza Madrigal: yes Dao?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ...
    Dao Yheng: the things we usually associate with effort often have to do with the self's efforts, but there is action / energy that is very effective, that has it's source elsewhere
    Mitsu Ishii: I would call it more like non-action/energy
    Mitsu Ishii: big flow
    Zen Arado: was reading that it isn't goal-oriented
    Gaya Ethaniel: Nice to ride that when it happens :)
    Zen Arado: because uses the present as a means only
    Gaya Ethaniel: Often though it takes a bit of time to get settled no?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Like finding a posture, relaxing ... making efforts to stay with it.
    Zen Arado: effort should be spontaneously in the present
    Dao Yheng: it feels like that "big flow" source is always available, so long we're not always tied up in the small self's ideas of what it might be like if....
    Zen Arado: like surfing a wave ?
    Dao Yheng: some would say literally like surfing a wave, I think!
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Xeno Octavia: do we distinguish 'present' from 'now'?
    Dao Yheng: (good question Xeno! started to wonder about that myself)
    Mitsu Ishii: in general the way it feels to me isn't that I have to make an effort to stay with things
    Mitsu Ishii: but more that I have to remind myself to relax in a present way
    Gaya Ethaniel: I mean looking back at your practice ... you never actually made efforts?
    Mitsu Ishii: to lift the veil and just relax outward into presence as it is
    Xeno Octavia: for me now is one-pointed but present a great range as much as past or future
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm not sure if we can sit for hours right from the beginning.
    Mitsu Ishii: to the extent I make an effort it is almost always counterproductive. I make a very, very slight effort to notice my effort and relax it
    Mitsu Ishii: through constantly becoming less and less and less, things flow
    Gaya Ethaniel: By making wrong efforts, I learnt a lot of things ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes what you meant by 'counter productive' Mitsu.
    Zen Arado: it's like we allow meditation to do us
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's part of the learning experience.
    Mitsu Ishii: without any effort, I can sit for hours or whatever. When I began I could barely sit for ten minutes
    Mitsu Ishii: but the difference between then and now is I make less effort now :)
    Xeno Octavia: /?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I see what you mean Mitsu :)
    Xeno Octavia: shudnt medit do us??
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?
    Zen Arado: yes that's what I mean Xeno
    Eliza Madrigal: I used to practice 'longer' sittings but now everything and sitting, is practice..
    Mitsu Ishii: to me it feels like, when we are making efforts, it's like clenching up all your muscles
    Zen Arado: instead of us making a mighty effort
    Xeno Octavia: ah good --wanted make sure ;)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: so relaxing that, you have much more energy
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes tension in body is so informative.
    Mitsu Ishii: and ironically can do all sorts of things that seemed impossible before, like sit for arbitrarily long periods or whatever
    Mitsu Ishii: except for the legs falling asleep
    Xeno Octavia: i look at music groups the best ones are played by the music
    Zen Arado: but not so easy to keep sense of an 'I' out of efforts I find
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zen Arado: takes practice I guess
    Eliza Madrigal: integration also... not keeping 'effort' or 'energy' to yourself...
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?
    Dao Yheng: and for me, also a willingness to let the "I" be there too?
    Eliza Madrigal: no 'i' in team... hahah
    Zen Arado: what about Olympic athletes?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ... otherwise it's 'I' fighting to keep 'I' out ...
    Zen Arado: gettting gold medals
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes a team!
    Mitsu Ishii: Yes, even with Olympic atheletes
    Mitsu Ishii: the great athletes are relaxed, they often report
    Gaya Ethaniel: They enjoy training too ... know when to push when not to.
    Zen Arado: always find that hard to understand
    Gaya Ethaniel: I get itchy sometimes if I don't keep up with certain activities I like.
    Mitsu Ishii: training or exertion doesn't necessarily mean effort
    Gaya Ethaniel: Surely you get that Zen with painting?
    Agatha Macbeth: /me scratches Gaya
    Eliza Madrigal: hahaha
    Gaya Ethaniel: /me giggles.
    Mitsu Ishii: you can do anything, everything without making an effort, including climbing a mountain or whatever.
    Zen Arado: I try not to think of painting for selling
    Zen Arado: it ruins it for me
    Zen Arado: but know others who have to make a living from it
    Gaya Ethaniel: There, effortless effort :)
    Eliza Madrigal: well the idea you might share it may keep you sharp too ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well, you give away too cheaply Zen!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Zen sent me a painting ... very kind of him.
    Zen Arado: selling is an afterthought for me but I am licky I don't need to do it for a living
    Eliza Madrigal: :) sweet
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zen Arado: lucky*
    Zen Arado: it makes you less creative too I think Eliza
    Xeno Octavia: yes- to b artist in ameeryca is a putdown
    Zen Arado: you would paint what you think people will buy
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm sure professional painter would do some for fun and some for money.
    Eliza Madrigal: not sure... think both can exist at the same time...
    Eliza Madrigal: which can create a certain energy :) Spark of fear...
    Zen Arado: as they become successful they can be more creative I guess
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes they could overlap ...
    Zen Arado: fear....maybe
    Eliza Madrigal: staying the edge :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well one hopes so :)
    Zen Arado: good point Eliza
    Xeno Octavia: if do real art is a medit - not there
    Zen Arado: prefer to do without fear though :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: What's 'medit'?
    Agatha Macbeth: Meditation?
    Eliza Madrigal: well maybe fear can be part of what gets fed to the fire...
    Xeno Octavia: medit-ation for short speller
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: A great idea Eliza :) Feed fear into the fire too ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ty Xeno :)
    Xeno Octavia: real art no thought just effortless action
    Zen Arado: fear os a motivator though too
    Zen Arado: would make me less lazy
    Xeno Octavia: ??? fear motivates??
    Eliza Madrigal: sure
    Gaya Ethaniel: I see effort as in training most of the time.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Whether a martial art ... painting etc.
    Xeno Octavia: yes effort til drop minds interference
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes there is that point, where it just happens.
    Zen Arado: Cal was saying something along those lines to me earlier
    Gaya Ethaniel: But up to then, having fun training ...
    Xeno Octavia: zen an archery : )
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?
    Mitsu Ishii: even when I did martial arts, I had the best results when I just practiced without a notion of a goal or effort, even if it was very strenuous
    Xeno Octavia: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: But you were 'hooked' to doing the taining no Mitsu?
    Zen Arado: " moving always exactly appropriately and without elaborating cliniging, modifying, resisting what happens"
    Xeno Octavia: effort and intention is cheating
    Eliza Madrigal: I seem to quote Eos a lot lately... but here is a Bruce Lee quote from Eos "In a stressful situation you don't rise to the level of potential but fall to the level of practice"
    Gaya Ethaniel: It was where you found your natural energy?
    Eliza Madrigal: going over that it is true at one level, but at another level...
    Eliza Madrigal: stress can push you to rise...
    Eliza Madrigal: to something you didn't know was there at all
    Mitsu Ishii: I didn't really train with the idea of achievement
    Mitsu Ishii: I just went to class.
    Gaya Ethaniel: You wanted to though ...
    Mitsu Ishii: as muchg as possible, I tried to train without a notion of attainment
    Gaya Ethaniel: Regardless the absence of goals etc.
    Zen Arado: must watch 'Karate Kid' soon :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I heard it was great ;-)
    Mitsu Ishii: motive or desire doesn't have to be effortful.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes wax on wax off ... not sure if that's in the new film.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: for example you can be hungry and then desire to eat food
    Mitsu Ishii: but it doesn't have to be done as an action
    Gaya Ethaniel: Indeed
    Eliza Madrigal: (btw sorry to miss the Inception talk Gaya... was traveling =P~)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zen Arado: missed it to
    Dao Yheng: we'll compare notes sometime -- I understand the forest retreatants had a movie night?
    Zen Arado: too
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's ok :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes :)
    Eliza Madrigal: We had to... after two days of people making references to it
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zen Arado: one of the movies I actually gotr to see before discussion too :(
    Gaya Ethaniel: I will post the log soon on a new wiki :)
    Dao Yheng: BTW, what for next week?
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, great. Thanks
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, good question
    Gaya Ethaniel: We will mix in some noir.
    Gaya Ethaniel: So The Third Man next month :)
    Dao Yheng: the next two might be a little difficult to discuss (concentration / meditation and wisdom)
    Mitsu Ishii: dhyana?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ...
    Mitsu Ishii: samadhi
    Mitsu Ishii: the homework can just be: sitting!
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... discussions could become too theoretic.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes we could commit to some short daily sittings?
    Xeno Octavia: asavs or paras
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?
    Mitsu Ishii: It's not possible to really talk about dhyana, but we can talk about our sitting practice.
    Dao Yheng: paramitas
    Mitsu Ishii: what it is like, concretely
    Zen Arado: in SL you mean Gaya?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, but that said I'd love to hear others' thoughts on what 'samadhi' means ...
    Xeno Octavia: avatars -SL paratars -FL
    Gaya Ethaniel: I don't understand Xeno speak >,<
    Mitsu Ishii: sure, we could try to discuss that
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
    Eliza Madrigal: and do sittings :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: How about min a few mintues each day?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Each day being the important part ...
    Mitsu Ishii: okay, a few minutes per day, at least.
    Zen Arado: but we all do already in RL no?
    Mitsu Ishii: or longer if it feels appropriate
    Eliza Madrigal: some yes Zen, prob not all
    Gaya Ethaniel: Not everyone here may do Zen :)
    Xeno Octavia: here Gaya!
    Zen Arado: ah ok
    Eliza Madrigal: and good to pay attention anyway
    Dao Yheng: yes!
    Gaya Ethaniel: ty Xeno
    Xeno Octavia: where does Rigpa fit in ??
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, another favorite word...
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes i wondered that ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal: words words words...
    Dao Yheng: maybe you'll explain it to us next week, Xeno?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Xeno Octavia: words get in way --but can incidentally lead places too
    Gaya Ethaniel: Agatha, Xeno - if you want to do the homework and reports let me know.
    Eliza Madrigal: /me is a little off beat today I think, but I love you guys and am happy to be back
    Gaya Ethaniel: I will create an account on the wiki for you.
    Eliza Madrigal: indeed Xeno
    Gaya Ethaniel: Nice to have you back to Eliza.
    Xeno Octavia: so this a weekly meet ? : )
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes
    Eliza Madrigal: *^.^* Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: rigpa is I think a bit beyond ordinary samadhi
    Dao Yheng: notes on the wiki: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
    Xeno Octavia: yes Rigpa is post Samadhi
    Eliza Madrigal: third stoplight down and take a right?
    Xeno Octavia: or better para to samadhi
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    Eliza Madrigal: sorry... hehe. I hear you :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I look forward to getting lost next week then :)
    Eliza Madrigal: /me has been getting lost a lot lately
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks everyone.
    Dao Yheng: thanks all!
    Heloise Toussaint: Thanks!
    Zen Arado: thanks everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks everybody! :)
    Mitsu Ishii: good to see you
    Dao Yheng: have a good evening (or day!)
    Agatha Macbeth: /me waves
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: bye everyone
    Agatha Macbeth: Or night...
    Zen Arado: bye all

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