2010.07.01 - Kshanti Paramita I

Agatha Macbeth: Hello Gaya :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Agatha :)
Agatha Macbeth: I seem to be early tonight
Gaya Ethaniel: Very eager aren't you?
Agatha Macbeth: Sometimes :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Nice pink hair
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks :)
Agatha Macbeth grins
x98x Hax: beep beep
Timbo Quan: Hello all
Agatha Macbeth: Beep beep :)
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Tim :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Heloise, Tim and x98x :)
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Dao, Heloise
Heloise Toussaint: Hi
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Dao :)
Timbo Quan: Hi Dao
Timbo Quan: Hi Heloise
Heloise Toussaint: Hi Timbo
Dao Yheng: Hi Gaya, Heloise, Agatha, Timbo!
Dao Yheng: Heloise, I like your dress -- the one I started with :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Yes, didn't think they made them any more
Dao Yheng: Hi Mitsu, Hi Calvino
Heloise Toussaint: Yes, I haven't had a play with clothes yet really, and I quite like it!
Mitsu Ishii: hello all
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Mitsu, Cal
Timbo Quan: Hi Mitsu
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Calvino and Mitsu :)
Timbo Quan: Hi Calvino
Dao Yheng: I think the first time I tried to put on different clothes, I ended up putting on the bilboard for it :)
Calvino Rabeni: Hello everyone :)
Agatha Macbeth: Eek
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mitsu Ishii: yeah I've worn multiple billboards in second life
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe the billboard looked better! :p
Dao Yheng: back to the colorform days!
Agatha Macbeth: Ah...
Gaya Ethaniel: Coloform?
Agatha Macbeth: A typo for chloroform :)
Dao Yheng: it was an old toy for kids -- basically like paper cut out dolls, but little plastic flatland dresses, etc
Gaya Ethaniel Googles chloroform ...
Mitsu Ishii: colorforms
Agatha Macbeth: (It just knocks me out)
Mitsu Ishii: not chloroform
Agatha Macbeth: ??
Gaya Ethaniel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorforms
Gaya Ethaniel: This?
Agatha Macbeth: Chlorofoam?
Mitsu Ishii: forms
Mitsu Ishii: colorforms, yes
Dao Yheng: you found it gaya!
Agatha Macbeth: Chlorophyll
Agatha Macbeth: Osmosis
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Agatha Macbeth: I meant photosynthesis not osmosis
Agatha Macbeth always was crap at biology
Heloise Toussaint: Fuzzy felt?
Gaya Ethaniel: Nice ... I'd enjoy that toy.
Agatha Macbeth: Fuzzy felt who ?
Agatha Macbeth: And did fuzzy enjoy it?
Heloise Toussaint: lol
Dao Yheng: so gaya, I'm curious -- why is patience your favorite paramita? (aside from waiting for us to stop kidding around today :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Now I'm lost ... yeah let's talk about patience.
Agatha Macbeth is impatient to find out
Gaya Ethaniel: Well because I'm incredibly impatient!
Agatha Macbeth: Same here
Agatha Macbeth: <- Tiger
Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni wonders about the relationship between patience and entertainment
Agatha Macbeth ponders
Gaya Ethaniel: So learning about patience has always been important.
Calvino Rabeni: Any learning experiences to share?
Mitsu Ishii: so in what way do you experience impatience Gaya?
Gaya Ethaniel: Well you know keeping a lid on doesn't work :P
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Gaya Ethaniel thinks ...
Calvino Rabeni: Or from the other side - what are some memorable experiences of being patient?
Gaya Ethaniel: btw I am still a bit hazy with this cold ... so bit slow.
Dao Yheng: Hmm, interesting question, Calvino (and no problem Gaya)
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Agatha Macbeth gives Gaya some Lemsip
Zen Arado: Hi all
Gaya Ethaniel: Well I was exploring working with breathing when feeling impatient last year with Steven here.
Agatha Macbeth: Hey Zen :)
Gaya Ethaniel: ty Agatha :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: So I'd say I see physical signs most easily.
Gaya Ethaniel: Tension ... shallow breathing and so on.
Gaya Ethaniel: Does this answer your question Mitsu?
Mitsu Ishii: but there are many situations
Gaya Ethaniel: mhm
Mitsu Ishii: for example: do you mean waiting for something, or do you mean when you feel upset about something and want it to change or be resolved?
Gaya Ethaniel: Well, as per my report wanting situations to be otherwise is a good example yes.
Agatha Macbeth nods
Calvino Rabeni: Culture plays a big part... not surprisingly
Mitsu Ishii: In Japan there is a common phrase "shoganai" or "shikataganai" I wonder if there is a similar concept in Korea
Zen Arado: that's the biggie for us isn't it?
Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... I forgot about bringing attention to breathing in those situations recently ... good that I remembered the exercise today.
Dao Yheng: not to divert, but counting breaths is an interesting example -- I've also noticed a kind of slight edge of impatience in the body that can turn into something more still and clear
Zen Arado: not accepting things the way they are if we can't change them
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Dao, I guess it's a similar practice.
Dao Yheng: that physical change isn't necessarily an attitude adjustment
Calvino Rabeni: Anything can be changed, if only in awareness ...
Dao Yheng: although attitude does seem to change as well!
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Zen Arado: it gets us out of the mind anyway Dao?
Zen Arado: the mind magnifies
Gaya Ethaniel: Yep shioganai equivalent exists in Korean :)
Calvino Rabeni: Impatient with the mind?
Dao Yheng: I'm not sure which comes first, in other words -- physical adjustment or "mind" adjustment
Mitsu Ishii: is it as universal a thing in Korean culture. I know in my family the shoganai attitude was omnipresent :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :D
Zen Arado: the mind churns out the angry thoughts
Calvino Rabeni: Can someone paraphrase that shoganai?
Zen Arado: angry reactions
Mitsu Ishii: shoganai basically means something like "que sera sera"
Zen Arado: ah ok
Calvino Rabeni: ah, thanks
Mitsu Ishii: or "well, what can you do, that's just the way it is"
Mitsu Ishii: "might as well accept it since there's nothing you can do for now"
Gaya Ethaniel nods.
Dao Yheng: very much like a famous quote from shantideva too --
Zen Arado: but our culture says 'you must DO something'
Gaya Ethaniel thinks ...
Heloise Toussaint: In French there's the concept of 'laisse tomber' or 'let it go'
Dao Yheng: (paraphrasing) why get angry about something which can be remedied, and what good does it do to get angry about something which cannot?
Mitsu Ishii: it can be overdone in Japanese culture where they'll accept some things they shouldn't accept
Heloise Toussaint: I found that very helpful
Calvino Rabeni: the culture also provides many small ways to have your way with your attention
Mitsu Ishii: but overall, it tends to be about accepting things that can't be helped
Calvino Rabeni: entertainments, distractions on command
Mitsu Ishii: I remember a story about that
Calvino Rabeni: to placate the desire for constant control
Mitsu Ishii: During the firebombing of Tokyo
Mitsu Ishii: which was this horrific thing where hundreds of thousands were killed in the firebombs
Agatha Macbeth: :(
Mitsu Ishii: I recall reading a story about a European who was in Tokyo
Mitsu Ishii: and he was overhearing two Japanese women looking out at the burning city
Mitsu Ishii: and of course they are fully aware of the carnage
Mitsu Ishii: but one of them says to the other "kirei, na?"
Mitsu Ishii: which means "it's pretty, isn't it?"
Agatha Macbeth nods
Mitsu Ishii: which is to say, there's nothing they can do about it, so might as well accept it and see the beauty even in death
Dao Yheng: it is an interesting tension -- between acceptance and sort of accepting too much
Zen Arado: yes - I always felt a bit uneasy with the passivity of that in Zen
Zen Arado: but acceptance doesn't rule out action as well
Dao Yheng: for me, an interesting angle has been, can it be possible to see the beauty even while acknowleging that on some level, it needs to be addressed?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, persistence [not insistence] is a good quality.
Zen Arado: yes
Mitsu Ishii: there has to be incisive action when necessary too, of course
Mitsu Ishii: it's like the serenity prayer
Zen Arado: acceptance without action = resignation?
Mitsu Ishii: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference. "
Zen Arado: yes
Gaya Ethaniel: I think acceptance from understanding is more helpful than acceptance because there is nothing one can do.
Gaya Ethaniel: Shantideva for example talks about how 'harmful' people are not masters of themselves.
Gaya Ethaniel: Seeing this brings acceptance of the situation more naturally.
Dao Yheng: in this sense, acceptance is compassion rather than "making do"?
Zen Arado: it's funny but a woman in our meditation group asked us about how to deal with her anger. But when we offered suggestions she said she still wanted to feel and act out the anger
Gaya Ethaniel: I think many things come into acceptance ... yes Dao.
Agatha Macbeth smiles @ Zen
Mitsu Ishii: well, understanding is often required before one can see there is nothing one can do.
Zen Arado: she said it was like grief and should be allowed to be expressed
Zen Arado: otherwise it would fester
Mitsu Ishii: well, there are many ways to express anger
Mitsu Ishii: there's a clear, incisive, direct anger
Dao Yheng: another tricky balance -- knowing the difference between compassion for anger and indulgence of it
Gaya Ethaniel: I guess I was talking more about empathic understanding ...
Mitsu Ishii: which goes straight to the point without rancor or malice, simply energy like a lightning bolt
Zen Arado: she thinks venting the anger is best
Mitsu Ishii: but most of the time people express anger in this smouldering way
Mitsu Ishii: which is really damaging and simply makes the whole situation far worse
Zen Arado: I remember Thich Nhat Hanh saying that hitting a pillow or something to vent anger just rehearses it
Heloise Toussaint: I’ve heard that depression can be caused by anger not expressed but turned inwards
Dao Yheng: I've heard that too, heloise, and find it quite true
Zen Arado: yes Heloise
Agatha Macbeth nods
Zen Arado: we get angry at ourselves, beat ourselves up
Calvino Rabeni: Another element to that - what's the anger? Often, at missing out on some positive experience
Mitsu Ishii: Anger is a huge subject in samurai culture
Calvino Rabeni: That is, the anger is secondary to, maybe a reaction to, sadness
Mitsu Ishii: it's like the worst sin of all is not sexual or indulgence, but rather anger breaking out inappropriately
Zen Arado: there's a lot of energy there that could be used creatively
Gaya Ethaniel: Well one wants to develop patience ...
Mitsu Ishii: but anger comes often from a situation where there is actually something wrong that should be addressed
Calvino Rabeni: @zen, then the anger is a positive energy
Calvino Rabeni: relative to the resignation
Zen Arado: yes agree Cal
Mitsu Ishii: if you can see the whole situation and act in a broad way that isn't too selfish
Mitsu Ishii: then the anger can be positive and even necessary
Heloise Toussaint: I've also heard that anger results when your values are broken, ie something happens which doesn't agree with the way you think things should be
Zen Arado: use it’s energy positively
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Mitsu, it's good to attend to the messages at early stages.
Zen Arado: like Martin Luther King’s anger at racism
Zen Arado: channelled
Gaya Ethaniel: Many people aren't good at noticing soft voices ... at early stages.
Dao Yheng: anger does seem to arise in a flash, but the seeds can be traced back --
Agatha Macbeth: True Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel nods.
Dao Yheng: oh, yes, gaya :)
Zen Arado: though that's about how we deal with anger in others?
Gaya Ethaniel: Patience must also be an antidote for those seeds.
Dao Yheng: attention and care as well
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes :)
Dao Yheng: even after getting angry!
Gaya Ethaniel: Do you all find it easy to be patient?
Zen Arado: patience with ourselves too
Gaya Ethaniel: Especially after getting angry :)
Zen Arado: I get impatient with myself
Heloise Toussaint: As I've got older I've found it easier
Agatha Macbeth: I agree
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Heloise, we can't be bothered anymore :P
Agatha Macbeth: Ha
Mitsu Ishii: I actually think often anger comes out more damaging because the person doesn't feel authorized to be angry
Heloise Toussaint: I was just about to say things don't bother me so much
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mitsu Ishii: if you are angry in a judicious manner, then you can be angry in a way which is more measured. ironically it's insecurity I think that distorts it
Calvino Rabeni: I learned a lot about patience by traveling and wandering when I was young
Gaya Ethaniel: Do you find yourself more patient with others then Zen?
Zen Arado: yes I think so
Zen Arado: you tell me :)
Gaya Ethaniel: heh :)
Zen Arado: he asked impatiently :)
Agatha Macbeth grins
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I will do intro to koe ...
Gaya Ethaniel: in IM
Zen Arado: yes old age breeds patience I think
Calvino Rabeni: Also learned some patience by misogi practice - have you done that, Mitsu?
Agatha Macbeth: And other things Zen ;-)
Zen Arado: we see thew futility of anger so many times
Zen Arado: :)
Dao Yheng: what is misogi, Calvino?
Zen Arado: reminds me of an old song:)
Mitsu Ishii: I never did misogi but I did something like that with a soccer field... :)
Calvino Rabeni: it is a variety of shinto practices done in Japan
Zen Arado: yes?
Dao Yheng: oh, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogi
Calvino Rabeni: LIke bathing in the lake or river on new years day, intense physical chanting, etc.
Calvino Rabeni: Meant to be transformative and involve concentration of will
Calvino Rabeni: and maybe, submission to some nature forces, if I guess right
Calvino Rabeni: I say guess, buecause it wasn't really explained :)
Calvino Rabeni: Just do ...
Dao Yheng: waterfall practice
Zen Arado: more able to bear suffering without complaining ?
Calvino Rabeni: that too
Dao Yheng: and also the passage of time
Mitsu Ishii: yes, I think I told this story before at WoK, but I once was asked by my martial arts instructor to jump around a soccer field holding a wooden sword from a crouching position, like a frog
Calvino Rabeni: maybe a dose of mind over matter ?
Calvino Rabeni: And yes, time was a big part of the experience
Mitsu Ishii: it was by far the most excruciating pain I had ever experienced
Mitsu Ishii: and it went on and on and on and on and on and on
Mitsu Ishii: but I found what worked
Calvino Rabeni: I can relate to that "on and on ...." part :)
Mitsu Ishii: was to jump outside of time-mind
Gaya Ethaniel: Why do you think getting older helps one to be more patient?
Mitsu Ishii: but just feel the pain in the present moment
Mitsu Ishii: and not think of the long expanse of time in front of me with the suffering
Calvino Rabeni: Lots of reasons come to mind Gaya
Calvino Rabeni: I was also a ultramarathon runner
Gaya Ethaniel: Getting older -> wiser?
Calvino Rabeni: same thing about time ....
Heloise Toussaint: In my experience, I realise you can't change people, so you just accept them as they are rather than getting impatient with them
Calvino Rabeni: it's not over, till it is over
Zen Arado: yes - so many experiences
Calvino Rabeni: About age, a breadth of experience leads to non-attachment to particular aspects of needing things to be a certain way
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Heloise but at the same time, one doesn't want to fix someone with a label ...
Zen Arado: learning experiences
Timbo Quan: getting older -> know whats important & whats not or at least a better idea
Zen Arado: a longer perspective
Heloise Toussaint: But what I mean is not fixing someone with a label and expecting them to be a certain way?
Gaya Ethaniel: Well ... that's a big topic ...
Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
Gaya Ethaniel: Sometimes we can easily just attach a label on a person then move on ...
Gaya Ethaniel: Yep nasty, yep ok ... etc
Agatha Macbeth nods
Dao Yheng: before we run out of time, I wanted to mention that Mitsu and I will be away for a couple weeks in July, and Eliza will be spotty as well -- shall we have a summer break until August?
Gaya Ethaniel: That sounds good to me ... I need a break.
Zen Arado: sure ok
Gaya Ethaniel: Can we come back to patience in August?
Agatha Macbeth: Yes, but we need to be patient ;-)
Dao Yheng: :))
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Zen Arado: that's along time :)
Agatha Macbeth: We need to be VERY patient then...
Calvino Rabeni: We should be quite patient by then :)
Dao Yheng: we'll think of Calvino and Mitsu on their marathons ...
Mitsu Ishii: we will have a summer recess until August 5
Zen Arado: what marathons?
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Agatha Macbeth rings her calendar
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks everyone :)
Heloise Toussaint: thank you
Agatha Macbeth: Ty Gaya :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I will post the log for today.
Timbo Quan: ok have a good summer!
Zen Arado: thanks
Gaya Ethaniel: Have fun!
Agatha Macbeth: Enjoy the hols!
Agatha Macbeth: Bye for now
Zen Arado: here comes summer :)
Dao Yheng: thanks all!
Mitsu Ishii: bye all
Zen Arado: bye all
Dao Yheng: yahoo!
Heloise Toussaint: Have a good summer and see you later