2010.10.21 - Mindfulness

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    Gaya Ethaniel: hello everyone :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Freud :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bruce
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce :)
    Freud Jungsten: siyo
    Eliza Madrigal: brb
    Bruce Mowbray: Hellooooooo. . . . just s sec. . .
    Eliza Madrigal: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
    Eliza Madrigal: More than likely Zen will be a little late... think he has a group he attends thursdays so a bit of delay...
    Eliza Madrigal: He gave us "mindfulness" homework last week
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah...
    Eliza Madrigal: care to make a prediction bruce?
    Eliza Madrigal: /me snickers
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Bruce and Zen :)
    Eliza Madrigal: (Bruce is good at predicting zen's arrival)
    Bruce Mowbray: He should already be here....
    Wol Euler: /me applauds
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: I mean, I saw him come into sl a cople of minutes ago.
    Bruce Mowbray: couple*
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello Zen!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi zen
    Zen Arado: Hi All - as predicted :)
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Zen Arado: nice place yo got here
    Eliza Madrigal: We haven't begun really Zen. Would you like to say a few words about why you chose 'mindfulness' for our topic?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: It's beautiful -- Storm did a fantastic job.
    Eliza Madrigal: WB Mick
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Mick.
    Zen Arado: well - as Cal said - we looked at Presence a couple of weeks ago
    Mickorod Renard: Hi,,sorry
    Zen Arado: and mindfulness seems the action part of that
    Zen Arado: and I think it is quite important
    Zen Arado: Hi Mick
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zen Arado: and it is becoming very widespread in the medical and psychotherapt field
    Eliza Madrigal: It seemed from the reports we have different sorts of ideas on what mindfulness is?
    Zen Arado: or maybe different emphases
    Mickorod Renard: can someone refresh me with an example?
    Zen Arado: mant therapists are sending patients for mindfulnes meditation instead of CBT etc
    Mickorod Renard: as if its that simple :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dao :)
    Zen Arado: it's really about staying present in the each moment I think
    Dao Yheng: (Hi all, sorry I'm late)
    Zen Arado: - in the :)
    Mickorod Renard: mm yes
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi dao
    Eliza Madrigal: So mindfulness is the sense of 'presence of mind'?
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Dao
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Dao :)
    Eliza Madrigal: *in=is
    Zen Arado: Hi Dao
    Zen Arado: excuse my bad typing
    Mickorod Renard: sort of focused and not distracted by irrelevant thoughts?
    Eliza Madrigal: like 'presence of mind for this task... attention span but on a deeper level?
    Zen Arado: but you can use it to focus on your habitual reactivity
    Eliza Madrigal: just asking questions to compare...
    Dao Yheng: I did sort of wonder what everyone might say -- what is the diff between being mindful in practice, versus being mindful generally (learning to bowl, or whatever)? Mindfulness is good advice in general...
    Zen Arado: sometimes you have to concentrate on your work etc
    Wol Euler: /me grins at Fu.
    Wol Euler: following the green dots, eh?
    Zen Arado: I think mindfulness can be construed as being deeper than mere concentration
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi again Fu :) This is Ways of Knowing workshop...
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Fu,,again
    Eliza Madrigal: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
    Eliza Madrigal: you're welcome to join us.
    Mickorod Renard: perhaps its total immersion?
    Zen Arado: it is like vipassana meditation to me
    Zen Arado: when you use mindfulness meditation
    Eliza Madrigal: interesting
    Dao Yheng: (oh yes, the distinction between mindfulness and concentration was pointed out in a couple places in the essays you chose, Zen)
    Zen Arado: hey - I am not an expert on this :)
    Eliza Madrigal: thank goodness :)
    Zen Arado: glad to hear other's interpretations
    Mickorod Renard: in my work its incredibly hectic,,with lots of distractions,,a collegue said today how lovely it had been to play tennis yesterday afternoon as she was able to rid her mind of all the madness of the mornings work and be lost in the game she was playing
    Zen Arado: but that's more like distraction Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: but is it?
    Dao Yheng: so, in that sense, mindfulness is letting go of concentration?
    Bruce Mowbray: For me, mindfulness is a general aspiration - which I may attempt to fulfill in a variety of methods . . . (Tennis is one of them.)
    Mickorod Renard: she was concentrating heavily on just one thing,,the game
    Bruce Mowbray: Dao's question is very good.
    Dao Yheng: (or of fixation, let's say)
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm... yes funny. once I solved a complex issue in my life by playing tetris for 3 hours...
    Bruce Mowbray: /me is pondering "Letting go of concentration."
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Cal.
    Zen Arado: yes but if there is something emotional you need to deal with and you go off and do something else ....is what I mean by distraction
    Eliza Madrigal: one part was busy which allowed insight to kick in...
    Zen Arado: Hi Cal :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cal :)
    Wol Euler: hello cal
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: :) Hi everyone
    Mickorod Renard: yes, i see what u mean Zen
    Bruce Mowbray: others "solve problems" by "sleeping on them."
    Mickorod Renard: Hi cal
    Zen Arado: interesting Eliza - I am trying to find out about 'intuitive intelligence'
    Mickorod Renard: I have experienced the mode of being very present in a mayhem,,and seeing more clearly
    Mickorod Renard: sort of almost out of body
    Zen Arado: or more in body maybe
    Mickorod Renard: and timeless
    Eliza Madrigal: hmmm
    Mitsu Ishii: "concentration" implies effort
    Zen Arado: less mind more body
    Mitsu Ishii: but mindfulness I think is beyond effort, it's almost the opposite of effort
    Wol Euler: /me nods.
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Zen Arado: yes ' like just giving spave around an emotion
    Zen Arado: space*
    Calvino Rabeni: Odd perhaps to listen to the word, but mindfulness marshalls more than the "mind"
    Wol Euler: like in the flow state, you have concentration but you don't do it :)
    Mitsu Ishii: Krishnamurti is rumored to have said once when asked, near the end of his life, to summarize his teaching, he said "Remain completely alert, and make no effort."
    Bruce Mowbray: mmmm. "Aspiration" is more general (less focused) than "intention."
    Eliza Madrigal: capacity
    Mickorod Renard: I supose we normaly experience a form of panic,,even though we may not like to call it that,,but mindfulness may be the ability to avoid that panic
    Zen Arado: nice quote Mitsu
    Eliza Madrigal: /me nods @ Mick... yes interesting...
    Bruce Mowbray: or, perhaps, to know that panic and go through it.
    Eliza Madrigal: stablilization
    Zen Arado: yes but more lioke staying wiht the emotion generated by the panic
    Calvino Rabeni: Being mindful within a physical melee... involves "thinking" with the body and emotions and more
    Zen Arado: if you are able in the situation
    Zen Arado: sometimes it could be good to relive a situation and experience the emotions again in meditation
    Mickorod Renard: its the panic that keeps us away from the mindfulness that would ultimately be so much more beneficial
    Bruce Mowbray: So, Cal, 'mindfulness' is a full-body awareness?
    Dao Yheng: yes, during tai chi class last night, I was noticing how my connection to the space and so forth would collapse when I felt "threatened"
    Calvino Rabeni: What does it take to stay aware while having strong emotions?
    Mickorod Renard: maybe there is a better word than panic
    Zen Arado: but you might that energy to cope with a RL situation?
    Eliza Madrigal: oh wow, Dao
    Calvino Rabeni: @bruce I would ssy yes to your question
    Mickorod Renard: adrenelin wud be good,,but maybe thats panic for me sometimes
    Bruce Mowbray: Even though Dao's "space" collapsed, she was still mindful -- of that colapse.
    Eliza Madrigal: that's sort of what I was getting at with 'stability' but that is a powerful snapshot
    Eliza Madrigal: to notice that at subtle levels too, yes
    Mickorod Renard: nice Dao
    Mitsu Ishii: in a martial arts context being mindful can literally mean dropping any sense of me vs the other person in combat. it becomes just a flow of energy and timing and bodies
    Dao Yheng: (thanks for reminding me of it Mickorod!)
    Zen Arado: ah yes Mitsu
    Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes it's also like staring down the barrel of a gun
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: turing into whatever you feel like turning away from
    Zen Arado: was fascinated with Fischer's description of the difference between self consciousness and mindfulness
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes thats an important distinction
    Dao Yheng: oh, that's a good one too -- the sense that mindfulness is not particularly connected to a self
    Calvino Rabeni: mindfulness sees through self, self-consciousness stops there
    Zen Arado: like just anger instead of 'my anger'
    Zen Arado: need to practice that one
    Wol Euler: an interesting distinction.
    Zen Arado: or 'there is jealousy' instead of ' Iam jealous'
    Mickorod Renard: I need this for my d in law who is too self concious with her drama acting
    Calvino Rabeni: Like, how big is the radius of my awareness, what all does it include, and does it go beyond my "self concept"
    Zen Arado: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: Who's seeing jealousy ... ?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: no one - it is just there is the point?
    Calvino Rabeni: No
    Calvino Rabeni: seeing more, seeing more of how I participate in jealousy
    Calvino Rabeni: owning it too
    Calvino Rabeni: it is the seeing that counts, not the labeling
    Calvino Rabeni: to see more of myself is to see more of not-myself
    Bruce Mowbray: noting how jealousy tends to "collapse' the space. . .
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, what gets left out by the collapse?
    Mickorod Renard: recognising it is part of the remedy?
    Zen Arado: ah - well I still see the end of this as the self concept diminishing
    Calvino Rabeni: Blind spots
    Calvino Rabeni: But zen, that is an end goal
    Zen Arado: oh yes
    Calvino Rabeni: the means or way is the how of it
    Calvino Rabeni: and I think we can't do that for an end purpose,
    Bruce Mowbray: thus, mindfulness is an aspiration - not a goal, as such.
    Calvino Rabeni: and if we do it for itself, the end will follow
    Zen Arado: no - but it will diminish naturally I hope
    Mickorod Renard: mmm,,reminds me of my problems with my idealistic issues
    Calvino Rabeni: Why hope that?
    Zen Arado: think mindfulness is just a technique
    Calvino Rabeni: I think, mindfulness does not play favorites
    Zen Arado: cos I think egoic causes me suffering
    Bruce Mowbray: /me hopes for more from Mich about his ideaism.
    Zen Arado: egoic self *
    Bruce Mowbray: idealism*
    Zen Arado: yes Mick?
    Calvino Rabeni: just seeing woudl be prior to labeling something as egoic
    Zen Arado: oh yes - agree seeing is enough
    Mickorod Renard: spend more ytime in the present and not insome futuere might be
    Mickorod Renard: scuse spelling
    Eliza Madrigal: /me nods...
    Eliza Madrigal: or in some 'should be' or when I, then...
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps theres a real and conjectural present just as a real and conjectural future
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Many martial artists are familiar with the conjectural prestent
    Calvino Rabeni: *present
    Calvino Rabeni: the idea of the present
    Zen Arado: yes - whatever 'real' is
    Mickorod Renard: not sure I am with that Cal
    Zen Arado: we construct the present you mean Cal?
    Mickorod Renard: can u say more?
    Calvino Rabeni: The "idea" of the present is what people consider the present
    Zen Arado: in our minds?
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Zen Arado: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Mick ... when with someone, seeing the person [mindfulness?] rather than operating based on what has gone before or what may be or may not be etc.
    Mickorod Renard: mm
    Calvino Rabeni: it has little to do with time
    Calvino Rabeni: it is as easy to be in the idea of the present as the idea of the future
    Gaya Ethaniel: Which I think is to do with time actually ...
    Mickorod Renard: yes gaya
    Calvino Rabeni: so in that case the present / future distinction is secondayr
    Mickorod Renard: mmm interesting
    Zen Arado: there was a great BBC TV prog the ohter night called 'seeing is believing' - they reckon that seeing is 10 % vision 90% made up by the brain
    Bruce Mowbray: wow.
    Calvino Rabeni: The notion "be in the present" really means, be in the actual situation, not the idea of it
    Calvino Rabeni: it's not about time
    Bruce Mowbray: "we make our own worlds."
    Zen Arado: we see things that aren't actually there
    Calvino Rabeni: @zen that's interesting to keep in mind
    Calvino Rabeni: the conjectural present
    Mickorod Renard: I missed that Zen,,what is going on in the 90%?
    Calvino Rabeni: that appears as perception
    Zen Arado: you should watch again on Iplayer Mick
    Mickorod Renard: is that 90% conceptual?
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,good idea
    Bruce Mowbray: I note the unsatisfactory-ness of my present non-awareness, so I aspire (in the present) to be more "mindful."
    Bruce Mowbray: a paradox.
    Zen Arado: the brain constructs reality from visual infromation but it also predicts what and uses shortcuts
    Eliza Madrigal: lots of space available ... we sort of connect the dots to write a story or picture
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, perception is mainly an anticipatory system
    Mickorod Renard: can we say perhaps,,that mindfulness changes the percentage of actual seeing as aposed to conceptual?
    Mickorod Renard: uopsed*
    Calvino Rabeni: It might, Mick
    Mickorod Renard: oops
    Calvino Rabeni: but it might also make the seeing more adaptable and flexible
    Bruce Mowbray: agree, Mick, and also expands our "seeing" to the rest of the body.
    Mickorod Renard: now then,,that makes it more tangiable
    Calvino Rabeni: in that case it uses the faculty of imagination
    Zen Arado: it's amazing - a conjuror threw a ball into the air twice - the 3rd time heonly mimiced throwing it - yet you SAW the red bal go up in the air
    Mickorod Renard: so we could suppose that our reliance on imagination could be defective?
    Calvino Rabeni: sounds like a good program
    Zen Arado: minicked *
    Eliza Madrigal: it was intersting zen that you mentioned vipassana but not shamatha (sp?)...
    Calvino Rabeni: No mick, imagination is what lets us keep up with realityh
    Mickorod Renard: whatever reality is?
    Zen Arado: well Shamatha ids concentration meditation is it not?
    Calvino Rabeni: perception and thinking alone is not enough to keep up with reality
    Dao Yheng: shamatha is more calm abiding
    Calvino Rabeni: realiity is the stuff that will feed or kill us if we don't behave correctly
    Zen Arado: our brain has too much info to process so it predicts and uses shortcuts
    Bruce Mowbray: stability/clarity (calm abiding)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes zen
    Zen Arado: more efficient
    Eliza Madrigal: shamatha yes I relate to as calm abiding... which then allows the stability for vipassana/insight....
    Zen Arado: yes agree Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: but not as separate... so just clarifying... thanks
    Calvino Rabeni: Our mind is like a flock of birds flying out to greet reality on many fronts, then massing in useful directions
    Zen Arado: mindfulnees seems more related to vipassana though?
    Bruce Mowbray: If I really wanted to understand "vision," I would consult a blind person.
    Wol Euler: heh
    Mickorod Renard: in some way,,life is like playing a video game and we have to react all thetime to whats presented,,but is there a way of changing this perception?
    Bruce Mowbray: He/she knows how to "see" in many ways.
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: Pinball wizard. . .
    Dao Yheng: :))
    Bruce Mowbray: TOMMY by The Who
    Calvino Rabeni: Vision is an ultra complex process... science is starting to look at the first "half second" in which the construction occurs
    Bruce Mowbray: Tis true.
    Zen Arado: yes there was a guy who rides a bike using clicks - kind of bat echo location
    Zen Arado: @ Bruce
    Eliza Madrigal: Mick maybe 'response' rather than reaction might be helpful...
    Calvino Rabeni: Ways of Knowing ... seeing is not separate from knowing as a process
    Mickorod Renard: in science journal it said recently the brain wires up blind people diferently to enhance their abilities using other senses
    Calvino Rabeni: most of the confusion is due to assuming things work in a linear, step by step fashion
    Bruce Mowbray: "knowing" sounds almost too "certain"
    Zen Arado: yes - other senses are developed more to compensate
    Mickorod Renard: yes Eliza,,my choice of words are not the best :(
    Calvino Rabeni: Unless you allow for multivalued logic, Bruce
    Calvino Rabeni: there
    Eliza Madrigal: you are great Mick... and yes just words but one seems softer and less a 'doing' we have to figure out
    Calvino Rabeni: 'is aristotle biting us again
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Since then, contradiction is regarded as a sign of logical error, rather than a sign of living in a complex world
    Mitsu Ishii: there's another way to respond to life than the video game approach
    Calvino Rabeni: and therefore shunned and not used as a teacher
    Eliza Madrigal: no more 'accurate' ... but somehow that there is a natural, appropriate response always available is comforting :)
    Wol Euler: /me nods to Cal.
    Bruce Mowbray: that ol' zero sum thingie -- either/or?
    Mitsu Ishii: that is to say, you can "flow" and be inside the wave, so to speak
    Mitsu Ishii: instead of reacting to apparent stimuli, you become the whole flow
    Bruce Mowbray: /me listens intently.
    Mickorod Renard: but Mitsui,,isnt it the other way that we are looking for?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: when I did martial arts there were two ways you can do it
    Zen Arado: agree Mitsu
    Mitsu Ishii: one is you react to the other person
    Calvino Rabeni: When one says "accurate" try to throw out aristotles logic, because it can't keep up nor model how our systems really work
    Mitsu Ishii: the other is you unify with the whole context and give up 'reacting'
    Gaya Ethaniel: Few minutes left ...
    Eliza Madrigal: mmmm
    Mitsu Ishii: the second way... you can respond often even before the other person starts to move
    Mickorod Renard: interesting Mitsui
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that is how we work anyway
    Calvino Rabeni: we have responses lined up for possibilities that haven't actualized yet
    Dao Yheng: Gaya, do you have something in mind for next week?
    Zen Arado: agrees with Cal about limitations of logical thought
    Mickorod Renard: isnt that like idealism though?
    Eliza Madrigal: /me listens
    Calvino Rabeni: parallel anticipatory systems, is what we are
    Gaya Ethaniel: mm ... no, sorry :(
    Eliza Madrigal: aw :(
    Zen Arado: nice Cal :)
    Dao Yheng: I seem to remember you mentioning something about your explorations on self ---
    Mickorod Renard: optdealism,,thats what we wat
    Mickorod Renard: a quantum idealism
    Gaya Ethaniel: mm ... well I just comment sometimes on topics suggested ... self is relevant in many topics so ...
    Dao Yheng: OK, too broad you think?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ... too big a topic I think.
    Zen Arado: could look at self in different disciplines
    Mickorod Renard: in what way look at self?
    Zen Arado: it's called 'personal identity' in philosophy
    Calvino Rabeni: The philosopher John ODonohue considered the topic of Beauty ... by looking at it every possible facet, all the sense modalities, its uses, etc.
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh Zen, thank you!
    Calvino Rabeni: not in the abstract that is
    Gaya Ethaniel: I look forward to your suggestion :P
    Mickorod Renard: cant I just send u a photo?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: thought J.O Donohue was an Irish poet?
    Bruce Mowbray: "Beauty" would be a fine topic.
    Eliza Madrigal: /me waves at Storm...
    Storm Nordwind: /me waves
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes that sounds nice too.
    Wol Euler: hello storm
    Eliza Madrigal: Everything looks great Storm
    Zen Arado: Hi Storm
    Gaya Ethaniel: ty Storm :)
    Wol Euler: yes, well done.
    Calvino Rabeni: ODonohue was a celtic-catholic theologian and philosopher
    Calvino Rabeni: Irish
    Zen Arado: so nice to have a view outside :)
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Storm,,thankyou for all the lovely things u have done
    Storm Nordwind: /me "Glad you feel at home here"
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, that would be an interesting angle Cal too...
    Zen Arado: oh - maybe I am thinking of a different one
    Bruce Mowbray: http://www.amazon.com/Beauty-Invisible-Embrace-John-Odonohue/dp/0060957263/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1287698501&sr=1-1
    Calvino Rabeni: it woudl be ....
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes a great book
    Calvino Rabeni: also Anam Cara
    Bruce Mowbray: Wonderful work, Storm!
    Calvino Rabeni: for an alternative to either Buddhist or really Christian views
    Eliza Madrigal: Lia was just talking about an exercize of 'looking for I' which reminded me of a meditation of looking for the self...
    Eliza Madrigal: "Am I my toe?"
    Zen Arado: no - same one - but think of him as a poet - oh well
    Eliza Madrigal: anyway... throwing stuff out there :)
    Bruce Mowbray: priest, poet, author. . .
    Calvino Rabeni: I think there's a foregone conclusion that if you take it apart, you won't find it by reductionism
    Eliza Madrigal: I look forward to seeing next week's homework
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-) me too.
    Mickorod Renard: I dont know if i can stand reading another book
    Eliza Madrigal: :)) Mick
    Calvino Rabeni: Not in a week
    Zen Arado: what is the homework?
    Zen Arado: you want to do 'personal identity'?
    Calvino Rabeni: Let's nominate someone
    Eliza Madrigal: I think Gaya passed the football to you, Zen...
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well that was a part of what Heart Sutra was talking about I think.
    Mickorod Renard: if i can get it on cd ihave time while i am asleep to listen to it
    Gaya Ethaniel: Anyway yeah sorry Zen I passed the buck.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)) it is collaboration
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe Bruce?
    Zen Arado: ok - but it is philosophical topic
    Eliza Madrigal: ah
    Eliza Madrigal: >gasp< Zen!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Philosopyhy - love of truth ...
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Dao Yheng: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Bruce passes -- because this is just his first visit to this group. . . (Thanks anyway, Cal.)
    Gaya Ethaniel: That's what it means apparently.
    Mickorod Renard: it always appears an aruament about truth
    Calvino Rabeni: TY Bruce, you seem like you've always been here
    Calvino Rabeni: did not mean to put you on the spot :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Does "truth" exist in a "postmodern world"?
    Wol Euler: do either of those categories exist without their "scare quotes"? :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Calvino Rabeni: Or do we care?
    Dao Yheng: :))
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night ... I will read the log later to find out about the topic.
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Zen Arado: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: what's wrong with "scare quotes"?
    Wol Euler: 'night gaya
    Dao Yheng: night gaya!
    Mickorod Renard: goodnight gaya
    Eliza Madrigal: /me doesn't "know"
    Mitsu Ishii: okay I've gotta go too
    Zen Arado: nite Gaya :)
    Wol Euler: /me "doesn#t" know.
    Eliza Madrigal: Nite everyone
    Mitsu Ishii: will check email for topic
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahha
    Wol Euler: bye mitsu
    Bruce Mowbray: /me is too scared to know.
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Wol Euler: :)
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,I am off home,, c u guys
    Dao Yheng: truth and beauty then :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I there post-postmodern happening now...
    Zen Arado: nite Mick
    Bruce Mowbray: /me is also hungry -- THANKS, everyone.
    Calvino Rabeni: BUt I like the classics
    Wol Euler: bye mick
    Wol Euler: well, bye eveyrone!
    Calvino Rabeni: like Beauty
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now. GOOD session!
    Zen Arado: bye Bruce
    Dao Yheng: bye!
    Wol Euler: bye eliza, take care.
    Eliza Madrigal: If the session persists... feel free to patch the log :) Bye everyone, and thanks so very much
    Zen Arado: bye Eliza
    Dao Yheng: bye eliza :)

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