2010.01.24 - Lojong 2 [dream]

Dao Yheng: Hi Timbo!
Timbo Quan: Hello everyone
Dao Yheng: Fun to see you float over here :)
Mitsu Ishii: hello all
Timbo Quan: yup - got to find somewhere to float around:)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Dao and Mitsu :)
Dao Yheng: Hi Gaya!
Gaya Ethaniel: A nice new look Dao!
Dao Yheng: :)
Dao Yheng: it's been in my inventory for a while but I never knew how to put it on!
Dao Yheng: thanks for the links
Gaya Ethaniel: Welcome :)
Dao Yheng: Actually spent some time on SL last week learning how to tint things and move things around
Gaya Ethaniel: Cool, how are you finding it?
Dao Yheng: fun, although slow going
Mitsu Ishii: Dao spent a lot of time playing with appearance last week
Dao Yheng: also limited by my questionable design sense
Dao Yheng: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes it does take some time learning SL.
Gaya Ethaniel: A good way to develop/experiment anyway.
Timbo Quan: Gaya always spends time changing appearance - while I never change ....
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Gaya Ethaniel: Well, it's hard to get Tim for shopping even in RL.
Gaya Ethaniel: Wonder if Eliza is coming ...
Gaya Ethaniel: She didn't say she can't make it so shall we give a couple more minutes?
Dao Yheng: Me too, was hoping to hear how the life as a dream homework was for her
Dao Yheng: sure
Mitsu Ishii: yes
Dao Yheng: I actually found playing around with clothing in sl sort of relevant to the homework this time
Gaya Ethaniel: oh?
Dao Yheng: In particular, the way flexi-prims move isn't really like anything in rl
Dao Yheng: more like the way stuff in the oceans move
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I see what you mean.
Dao Yheng: and of course just the range of clothing that people are willing to wear is greater in sl
Dao Yheng: I visited one of the sandbox areas and saw people dressed as darth vader, gypsies, etc
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Dao Yheng: I suppose people do dress as Darth Vader in real life, but only for special occasions
Gaya Ethaniel: Or in dreams ... :)
Dao Yheng: :)
Mitsu Ishii: So it appears Eliza isn't going to make it, perhaps we should just begin
Gaya Ethaniel: ok
Mitsu Ishii: Dao posted a report on the wiki
Dao Yheng: does anyone have something to report re homework?
Dao Yheng: (oh yes, I did)
Gaya Ethaniel: oh, didn't check ... let me have a quick look.
Gaya Ethaniel: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/3Repor...heng/Report_40
Timbo Quan: interesting for me the closest I could get was walking from work to station (45 minutes walk) - in the evening with a light drizzle reality becomes very dream like for me at least
Timbo Quan: at times hard to distinguish
Dao Yheng: Hmm, I think there's something similar in our reports then, Timbo
Gaya Ethaniel: Would be helpful to hear more about 'dream-like' qualities.
Dao Yheng: something about the difference in light in the evening...
Timbo Quan: possible - I think walking for longer periods of time can have that effect as mind can retreat into itself a little
Dao Yheng: I feel that as well
Timbo Quan: by dream like I mean not quiet real - like the world around you is flowing by
Timbo Quan: when walking a familiar route then not all the concentration is required and so it becomes like you drift through it perhaps
Gaya Ethaniel: Isn't that spacing out?
Dao Yheng: for me, it can be more vivid, but also less solid
Mitsu Ishii: so do you find that concentration makes things seem less like a dream?
Timbo Quan: yes - if I am focussed then things are very sharp and 'real' for me
Timbo Quan: for me in dreams you are there but have little control and kind of flow through it - so I found that element perhaps similar
Gaya Ethaniel: So more of being an observer is one of the dream like qualities?
Gaya Ethaniel: [For Tim, I'm asking]
Timbo Quan: more than an observer - in that you are there, though perhaps at times seeing things from the third person, but it's the fact that events seem to happen in dreams
Gaya Ethaniel: I see.
Dao Yheng: I too find that an overly sharp or narrow focus tends to skew me in a direction of overidentification of myself, things in the world, etc
Gaya Ethaniel: Visual focus?
Dao Yheng: sure
Dao Yheng: both attentional and visual focus
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes that is true for me too.
Gaya Ethaniel: Though during dreams, it tends to bolster 'third person' as Tim put it.
Dao Yheng: I find it interesting that Timbo and I both noticed more while walking (as opposed to sitting and reading)
Dao Yheng: Yes, that's another aspect
Gaya Ethaniel: I did during sittings actually rather than walking.
Dao Yheng: how did you find it?
Gaya Ethaniel: mm ... hard to describe ^^;;;
Timbo Quan: for me it is the movement perhaps
Mitsu Ishii: so the question I have is, when events do occur that seem "real", can you find a dreamlike aspect to it?
Dao Yheng: No
Dao Yheng: :)
Mitsu Ishii: Do you ever have dreams that have events in them which seem real, thus it is hard to feel it is a dream even when it is?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ... flying ones especially ...
Gaya Ethaniel: But I haven't had an inverse situation while waking yet.
Timbo Quan: I think dreams pretty feel 'real' most of time, though as I mentioned little control in them ... however in real events I can tell that its real simply because I can control what happens
Timbo Quan: in way that can't in a dream
Timbo Quan: so perhaps no to your first Q
Gaya Ethaniel: What I have done more is having the sense that this could be a dream while waking last week.
Dao Yheng: Interesting! I'm not much of a flying dreamer, so when I notice I'm flying it almost always comes with knowing that I'm dreaming
Gaya Ethaniel: And see how I felt and would act etc.
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes easy to become lucid :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I think thinking of dreams is a gentle way of seeing impermanence & co-dependent arising ...
Mitsu Ishii: This morning I had a dream I was driving a car in Florida, on my way to the airport
Mitsu Ishii: and on my way there, what appeared to be an earthquake or nuclear bomb went off
Mitsu Ishii: the road buckled under me and the car started to slide sideways
Mitsu Ishii: I was thinking "hmm, it's too bad I missed the earlier flight"
Timbo Quan: :)
Mitsu Ishii: and "This is interesting, I may well die. I guess I'll try to drive the car as carefully as possible to avoid death. But oh well"
Mitsu Ishii: I also was thinking things about where I ought to try to guide the car as it slide over the buckling road to avoid radiation exposure. Wondering if I'd already been exposed to enough to die of radiation sickness and so on. And I mused about who might be responsible --- terrorists?
Dao Yheng: do you think you would have reacted in the same way in RL?
Gaya Ethaniel: mm ... what do you mean by "oh well"?
Mitsu Ishii: I think in real life I would have reacted somewhat similarly, though with more adrenaline
Mitsu Ishii: I mean I wasn't really that upset, I was just trying to work with the situation of the explosion
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
Timbo Quan: I have similar dreams in that I watch an asteroid strick and thinking of what I should do to try and survive in the seconds/minutes I have left before the shock wave hits ....
Mitsu Ishii: oh yeah, I also was thinking "It's interesting that I am still alive to think about this, because I could have just been instantly killed." I was glad I had some moments to contemplate my possible imminent death
Gaya Ethaniel: Is this man thing ...? Disaster dreams ...
Dao Yheng: :)
Mitsu Ishii: maybe
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Timbo Quan: I also get alien invasion dreams (quiet often) where I am fighting aliens invading
Timbo Quan: always seem very vivid for me
Dao Yheng: Wow, I think you and Mitsu are soul brothers!
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Dao Yheng: (or maybe fellow aliens?)
Mitsu Ishii: Sometimes I'm the alien
Timbo Quan: interesting - I guess I like being the good guy :)
Mitsu Ishii: But to bring it back to the Lojong I was thinking that the whole "treat everything you perceive as a dream" is intended specifically for those moments that seem the most real
Mitsu Ishii: sometimes aliens are good guys
Gaya Ethaniel nods.
Timbo Quan: (not in my dreams :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I can see a possible application in not getting sucked with strong emotions.
Mitsu Ishii: like the moments when you're really getting dragged into some terrible situation or whatever
Gaya Ethaniel: Kind of a pause
Mitsu Ishii: can the idea of it being a dream work then?
Gaya Ethaniel: Well, last time I got angry I only managed to stop/start a few times ... but that was before this homework. I will certainly try next time.
Gaya Ethaniel: You two are familiar with Lojong so I wonder if you have applied it before.
Dao Yheng: I could see the instruction not only as an antidote to strong emotions, but also as a way of better appreciating them
Dao Yheng: but I don't say this as a practitioner of Lojong -- have only read the aphorisms once or twice
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
Gaya Ethaniel: I probably wouldn't have understood your point well if it wasn't for Stim's suggestion re: lucid dreams :)
Dao Yheng: ah, well, that was more about dreams than about lojong per se
Gaya Ethaniel: Not sure if this has anything to do with the homework, but couple of mornings I saw sense of self gathering up.
Gaya Ethaniel: Say more about appreciating more Dao?
Dao Yheng: Oh, I was going to ask about the sense of self gathering up :)
Dao Yheng: (you type yours and I'll type mine...)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mitsu Ishii: that's interesting, you saw a sense of self gathering in the morning
Gaya Ethaniel: Well just watching a bit as I became awake ... ideas popping up really ...
Gaya Ethaniel: I actively started a sort of breathing exercise/meditation and it seemed to help watching it.
Mitsu Ishii: that moment of waking in the morning is a great time to see this
Mitsu Ishii: the construction of self / world
Gaya Ethaniel: I was pretty disappointed though ... mostly negative sense of self came up to begin with.
Gaya Ethaniel: But I guess I got some pointers which is helpful.
Mitsu Ishii: what do you mean by negative
Gaya Ethaniel: My sense of self is pretty negative ...
Dao Yheng: (I know that feeling)
Gaya Ethaniel: Negative ones came up first well before positive ones ... that's what I meant.
Gaya Ethaniel listens to Dao now ... :P
Dao Yheng: um....
Dao Yheng: My point was just a basic one -- that in dreams, you can have these really big emotions or scenarios -- the fact that you're petrified of aliens or killer bears or whatever is a piece of it, but what's really striking about dream life is how gigantic it can be
Dao Yheng: really monumental
Timbo Quan: yes that very true
Timbo Quan: certainly bigger than our 'small' lives
Dao Yheng: but in "real" life, we tend to make things smaller
Dao Yheng: so seeing anger as a dream for instance might also mean seeing it not as some small ridiculous thing
Dao Yheng: but also seeing it in its true context, which is this unimaginably grand thing
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... I see what you mean.
Dao Yheng: sometimes anger is absolutely awesome
Gaya Ethaniel nods ...
Dao Yheng: Gaya, you asked back at the beginning " Would be helpful to hear more about 'dream-like' qualities."
Gaya Ethaniel: mhm
Dao Yheng: how would you respond to that question?
Gaya Ethaniel: Well ... I stopped now but used to be able to steer plots of dreams so I'm curious about how other people see dreams really.
Mitsu Ishii: I've found that dreams and waking life are much closer these days than they used to be
Mitsu Ishii: for me.
Mitsu Ishii: that is to say, mostly in that waking life is more like a dream (not just in my perception of it, but in reality)
Timbo Quan: generally still wide apart for me ... probably a good things though given my dreams ...
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mitsu Ishii: So the dream metaphor I think is more than just a metaphor, it's actually pointing to an aspect of the nature of reality at all times
Gaya Ethaniel nods.
Mitsu Ishii: we could talk about that more next time, it could be an interesting topic
Gaya Ethaniel: ok
Mitsu Ishii: shall we stick with dreams for one more week? I think it might be interesting?
Gaya Ethaniel: sure
Dao Yheng: sounds good -- maybe Eliza will be able to attend as well
Timbo Quan: ok
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks, nice to see you both. Have a good week.
Gaya Ethaniel: Must run to Tibetan class
Dao Yheng: you too
Timbo Quan: ok well night all - have good week
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mitsu Ishii: bye
Dao Yheng: Bye Timbo!