2010.09.16 - Goals & Intention

Zen Arado: Hi Gaya, Alfred
Xeno Octavia: hi Alf
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
Alfred Kelberry: is it... a dream workshop?
Alfred Kelberry: all pabers are here :)
Eliza Madrigal: This is Ways of Knowing Alfred :)
Alfred Kelberry: oh, sorry
Eliza Madrigal: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
Zen Arado: Hi Yaku:)
Eliza Madrigal: But please stay if you like :))
Xeno Octavia: hi Yaku
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ya
Eliza Madrigal: the guys are all looking dapper today...
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: thanks:)
Alfred Kelberry: eliza looks... leggy today :)
Xeno Octavia: i gots new outfit --tho not Peruvu or Incan
Zen Arado: dapper hmmm....
Eliza Madrigal: completely intentional Alf :)
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Dao Yheng: legs for going the extra mile?
Eliza Madrigal: Its a great outfit, Xeno
Eliza Madrigal: YES Dao, or for standing where I am a looooonng time
Eliza Madrigal: or taking long steps at least :)
Zen Arado: dapper makes me think of old movie actors with haircream
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Zen Arado: Fred Astaire
Eliza Madrigal: my first crush
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Zen Arado: you can be Ginger Rogers Eliza
Xeno Octavia: i hosting book group at 5 on the Incas : )
Eliza Madrigal: ah yes always wanted to be :)
Eliza Madrigal: How interesting Xeno
Alfred Kelberry: ok, i can be (al)fred astaire then :)
Xeno Octavia: yes a fun tho big book
Eliza Madrigal: we'll have that dance :)
Dao Yheng: what is your interest in the Incas, Xeno? (or does that cross into the wrong workshop :)
Zen Arado: let's face the music and dance
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: there may be trouble ahead... but while there's music and moonlight and love and romance... let's face the music, and dance...
Eliza Madrigal: /me sits on her hands
Zen Arado: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: heheheh
Xeno Octavia: no was recomended by a polar bzear in our group we pick new book each month tho extended tis montha as regular host on vacation
Dao Yheng: :)
Eliza Madrigal: /me loves SL for those kinds of phrases
Zen Arado: dancing...I want my arms around you....
Xeno Octavia: lololol Eli
Zen Arado: getting carried away to the 30's
Dao Yheng: (btw, interesting conversation on goals we're having!)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes, noticed that...
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Eliza Madrigal: I loved your report Dao, thank you, and Zen too...
Zen Arado: what is the goal of this session?
Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry I didn't have much time last week to write a report ...
Dao Yheng: I really enjoyed yours as well, Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: Both reports influenced mine, thank you
Dao Yheng: goal of this session is to dance, I suppose!
Zen Arado: was looking for reports but only saw Dao's
Zen Arado: :)
Xeno Octavia: kool i got new dance hud --break dance
Zen Arado: non - it has to be ballroom now :)
Xeno Octavia: oh have any of u seen the LXD on hulu is great
Zen Arado: LXD?
Eliza Madrigal: the goal-less conversation and the hope-less conversation, and 'relating with the whole situation' seem to come together pretty nicely for me this week
Xeno Octavia: Leage of extraordinary Dancers
Eliza Madrigal: a sense of falling through and staying put at once
Dao Yheng: and I especially enjoyed your consideration of time
Zen Arado: it's so hard to be aimless
Eliza Madrigal: hard to separate goals and time
Eliza Madrigal: :) Thank you
Gaya Ethaniel: Probably it's to do with having something to measure against ...
Eliza Madrigal: /me nods
Zen Arado: true Gaya
Xeno Octavia: i fairly aimless --hopeless helps!
Zen Arado: you can't have a goal unless you know whetehr or not you are gettin gto it
Eliza Madrigal: I love the way you end your report especially Dao... empty aims, empty transformations... empty goals
Calvino Rabeni: Everything you see is seen by you and therefore imbued with your intentionality
Zen Arado: A goal is intentionality focussed?
Xeno Octavia: then it gets in ur way
Eliza Madrigal: can you have empty intentionality?
Xeno Octavia: just wandere
Calvino Rabeni: I don't think so
Xeno Octavia: ??
Gaya Ethaniel: It can certainly be less self-centered.
Eliza Madrigal: we did 'aimless wandering' practice at Windhorse... and it was actually beautiful... it didn't have an aim, but lots happened there, in that place
Calvino Rabeni: what do you think Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: in that place of the forest I mean, *in* the practice
Calvino Rabeni: Less self-centered - usually that means - look around, but then one sees self there also
Gaya Ethaniel: mhm
Eliza Madrigal: but the practice was framed, so is that a goal? seems an intention...
Zen Arado: a goal of aimlessness
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: a goal of not being self centred
Calvino Rabeni: impossible, Zen
Xeno Octavia: which 'self'
Eliza Madrigal: like coming here, it is a regular practice... is it a goal?
Zen Arado: hard to get away from goal seeking behaviour I think
Calvino Rabeni: to "be here now" is to be self-centered
Eliza Madrigal: not sure...
Calvino Rabeni: being is perspectival
Xeno Octavia: how bout 'been there then'
Eliza Madrigal: it isnt looking >in< on self...
Eliza Madrigal: as though excluding something 'else'
Calvino Rabeni: right but even looking out, is to see one's own seeing
Dao Yheng: we usually think of goals as part of the "action performed by a self" paradigm
Eliza Madrigal: /me nods
Calvino Rabeni: so the idea might be to act from the true self, not the self-concept?
Dao Yheng: but maybe there's a sense of directedness that comes from an expanded sense of self
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: 'doing' needs a self to do the doing
Calvino Rabeni: yes Dao that works I believe
Zen Arado: or is there just doing?
Calvino Rabeni: Only by convention, Zen
Zen Arado: doing is done
Xeno Octavia: ego self diff than authentic SELF
Eliza Madrigal: 'when the dharma body wakes there is nothing at all'
Eliza Madrigal: *wakens
Xeno Octavia: being need b before doing
Zen Arado: it's in how we think about it isn't it?
Xeno Octavia: stop thinkeeing
Zen Arado: does the Tue self do anything?
Zen Arado: but just 'be'?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mitsu
Xeno Octavia: everything --at once
Xeno Octavia: hi Mits
Gaya Ethaniel: yay Mitsu is here to get me into the line :P
Zen Arado: Hi Mitsu
Mitsu Ishii: hi, sorry to be late!
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi mitsu :)
Calvino Rabeni: The true self has activity, and it doesn't matter whether it's called doing or not doing
Eliza Madrigal: Avalokitesvara looks pretty busy
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Dao Yheng: Mits is here to sit on yaku :)
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
Zen Arado: listening to all cries of the world
Calvino Rabeni: But I'd guess, we experience the activities of true self as not doing, since we don't identify with them as an agent
Xeno Octavia: ur right omn time --u werent here before u came --cyber physically at leasdt
Eliza Madrigal: interesting idea Cal
Eliza Madrigal: /me listens
Mitsu Ishii: how did I sit on Yaku?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: Zen listens too
Gaya Ethaniel: me three ...
Xeno Octavia: it experienc eus whether we experience it or not
Zen Arado: is listening a doing?
Mitsu Ishii: okay somehow I sat on Yaku
Eliza Madrigal: certainly an intention...
Xeno Octavia: was it a doing or a happning
Zen Arado: just being receptive?
Xeno Octavia: yes
Zen Arado: being aware and open?
Calvino Rabeni: whose listening Zen?
Zen Arado: sorry :)
Zen Arado: I was supposed to be ...but there is no 'I'
Zen Arado: you could describe it as a state
Dao Yheng: listening is a doing in so far as it involves time, a sense of self, etc
Zen Arado: the mind deciphering the audio input is a doing
Eliza Madrigal: so it creates a conditioning...
Eliza Madrigal: but is there a listening/receptivity that isn't a doing.. also at that wider level?
Dao Yheng: I think so -- but then there isn't any sense of separation at all
Zen Arado: if there was only hearing that would be True self
Dao Yheng: no distance to cover
Eliza Madrigal: so doing implies distance to get through
Xeno Octavia: if mind just being isnt it listening --without really doing --mmm gess not
Zen Arado: it's waht Pema said about appearances?
Zen Arado: if we add existence to that then that is doing?
Eliza Madrigal: appreciation used to strike as a doing, interesting zen
Calvino Rabeni: What if, what makes us truly human, is the "false" self - the conceptual self?
Zen Arado: appreciation takes a little generation
Xeno Octavia: yes defnitly conceptual is constructed
Dao Yheng: ooh, good one, Calvino!
Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps the "false" self is icing on the cake
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: yes but what is 'truly human'?
Xeno Octavia: chocolate i hopes
Eliza Madrigal: yes, zen read my mind...
Mitsu Ishii: To me, the "false" self is a kind of constriction of the full self
Mitsu Ishii: It's a narrowed down, smaller thing
Xeno Octavia: yes truly human MUST be false
Calvino Rabeni: Without those "false selves" would we be sitting here in conversation, enjoying the selves that don't exist?
Xeno Octavia: genuine but not authentic
Eliza Madrigal: /me giggles
Eliza Madrigal: well they aren't false in their context
Mitsu Ishii: It's a common misconception that the so-called false self or small self is why we do things
Calvino Rabeni: I agree with that
Mitsu Ishii: i.e., that you "use" the self to talk, do actions and so forth
Zen Arado: listens
Calvino Rabeni: Agree also
Zen Arado: I think :)
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Mitsu Ishii: but you can talk, make love, do your taxes, fight, jump. run, all without really referencing the small self particularly
Calvino Rabeni: But my false self is too lazy to try to say why I agree :)
Xeno Octavia: i left me small self 'home'
Mitsu Ishii: Stim/Steven likes to talk about how it is possible to do all those things without "doing" them in the ham-handed way we usually do
Gaya Ethaniel: What's ham-handed way?
Xeno Octavia: unkosher
Calvino Rabeni: So maybe we're a bit more skillful and nuanced or whaterver ...
Mitsu Ishii: ham-handed as in really convoluted and indirect, and uncomfortable
Calvino Rabeni: that might be a good thing eh?
Eliza Madrigal: I suppose that is why he seems most interested in those moments where spontaneous action arises in a situation?
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... ok
Xeno Octavia: ham handed can be demo shape
Mitsu Ishii: like, if you decided that instead of walking normally you had to wear this really tight armor that was all rusty and then you couldn't walk but had to hop on one leg while punching yourself in the face
Zen Arado: spontaneous make me thinf of animal behaviour - instinctual
Eliza Madrigal: hahahahhaa
Mitsu Ishii: that's a good analogy... :)
Dao Yheng: :))))
Eliza Madrigal: /me loves that and puts it in her pocket
Xeno Octavia: but not of spontaneity
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes, I guess spontaneous is one of those words...
Calvino Rabeni: What's spontaneity, but appropriate action ?
Eliza Madrigal: but for me it is those 'instants'
Xeno Octavia: it includes inapprop
Zen Arado: so our 'too much thinking 'handicaps us that way?
Calvino Rabeni: Can it be acquired, by following the steps of the Eightfold Path to Complete Spntaneity?
Eliza Madrigal: which doesn't mean it is always something that happens quickly, but that yes there is a harmony and a not-doing that 'shows up' a wider intelligence
Xeno Octavia: intellect is a major handicap
Calvino Rabeni: Or is it just disconnected thinking that ends up being hamfisted?
Zen Arado: like a sport player being in the zone - no thinking
Eliza Madrigal: yes!
Xeno Octavia: thinkin s a tool of the devil : 0
Zen Arado: just spontaneous action
Eliza Madrigal: I saw Dwane Wade play basketball last year and it was not possible that he was a human
Calvino Rabeni: We'd be better off as animals eh?
Calvino Rabeni: Having evolved the cortex was a big mistake?
Zen Arado: a thought that struck me Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe we can get it removed somehow or inhibit it with drugs
Dao Yheng: :))))
Zen Arado: all have lobotomies
Eliza Madrigal: he was completely skilled, that took great discipline and intelligence, but it didn't put him over....
Calvino Rabeni: Or hope for a stroke
Calvino Rabeni: Or fast in the desert for 21 days
Zen Arado: take LSD?
Eliza Madrigal: this is sort of my 'beyond' point from my report... it wouldn't be beyond, if there wasn't something there... so not 'no intelligence' or 'no knowledge'
Eliza Madrigal: =P~
Calvino Rabeni: Remember those fads of hyperventilating to produce a "spiritual" state?
Zen Arado: or Sufi dancing?
Xeno Octavia: or LXD
Zen Arado: :)
Mitsu Ishii: well it's that we need Zen and things like this to deal with the fact that we have language and thoughts about time and history and so forth
Zen Arado: or sweat boxes of native americans
Mitsu Ishii: but it's possible to integrate all that
Gaya Ethaniel: /me wonders about Zen >.<
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Calvino Rabeni: That's an excellent working hypothesis Mitsu
Mitsu Ishii: so one can keep language and so on and yet not turn it into this big problem
Zen Arado: so does Zen :)
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Zen Arado: it's about relative and absolute isn't it?
Xeno Octavia: use feeling heart language intead of intellectuual mind langua
Zen Arado: we need everyday thinking to get throgh the day
Eliza Madrigal: and both and neither
Calvino Rabeni: So whenever someone is focused on the supposed problems of language, it might be better just to practice integration instead, and stop thinking about thinking?
Zen Arado: but we allow the mind to dominate too much
Xeno Octavia: so u feel animals think---they get thru day : )
Mitsu Ishii: well I think it's worth being aware of the traps of language
Calvino Rabeni: Aware enough to choose practices
Mitsu Ishii: like Wittgenstein said "language is an immense network of easily accessible wrong turnings"
Calvino Rabeni: but being aware doesn't mean just thinking there's a problem
Xeno Octavia: language not have traps --it is trap
Zen Arado: just adopt the labels and concepts for their usefulness
Calvino Rabeni: But Wittgenstein seemed to get stuck right at that point, didn't he?
Mitsu Ishii: yes, it means specifically being aware. but yeah I also agree that presence/practice is the main way of ameliorating
Zen Arado: but not get caught by them into thinking they are real
Calvino Rabeni: What would they be instead of real?
Mitsu Ishii: well Wittgenstein didn't have access to practices, but aside from that I think he at least saw the wrong turnings, or most of them
Zen Arado: and maybe adopt new metaphors as Pema says
Calvino Rabeni: But it didn't do any good, ultimately
Calvino Rabeni: And the new metaphors are just new traps, unless something else is different
Mitsu Ishii: it would have done more good if more philosophers understood what he was talking about :)
Zen Arado: just waht they are - useful concepts Cal
Calvino Rabeni: It's not about a "metaphor improvement" program
Xeno Octavia: need a new species
Eliza Madrigal: well, people pretending they don't know what the other person 'means' is more the issue sometimes...
Zen Arado: more about being suspicious of the ones we take for granted maybe
Calvino Rabeni: Nice, ELiza
Mitsu Ishii: well like I was saying last week, I think having some intellectual understanding can help because it can allow you to align your rational thought with your practice
Calvino Rabeni: So true
Mitsu Ishii: instead of seeing it as two different, alienated worlds
Xeno Octavia: ar5e those Lakeoff metaphors
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Zen Arado: yes
Xeno Octavia: assured communics much better than assumed
Eliza Madrigal: Well, I get hung up on themes, but for me that speaks to relating to totality as well
Eliza Madrigal: listening from a wider place
Xeno Octavia: need clear undersytanding of memes /memetics
Eliza Madrigal: and an ability to sustain non-judgement with curiosity
Zen Arado: we cling to familiar cosy symbols
Calvino Rabeni: Symbols are how we operate
Mitsu Ishii: So do we have a theme for next week?
Dao Yheng: non-judgement -- a tricky one
Xeno Octavia: coosy --easy-- empty [but not emptiness]
Eliza Madrigal: my son likes symbols because he said 'they are fine on their own' don't have to be put together with anything else... haha
Calvino Rabeni: Ah, no time to discuss symbols then
Mitsu Ishii: haha
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mitsu Ishii: how old is he?
Eliza Madrigal: 11 :)
Mitsu Ishii: cool!
Gaya Ethaniel: J is very insightful :)
Zen Arado: yep:)
Calvino Rabeni: yes, they have some independence don't they
Eliza Madrigal: she is too... she is the one who told me I was becoming mischevious due to meditating (J)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Dao Yheng: :)
Mitsu Ishii: my little cousin once said, when she was playing in a canyon at age 4 or something
Xeno Octavia: to bad yonguns to old ta come ta SL
Eliza Madrigal: neat kids.. a little odd, not sure how they got that way
Mitsu Ishii: when her mom complained that she was throwing rocks back into the river
Dao Yheng: (Calvino, are you ready for us next week?)
Gaya Ethaniel: /me looks over to the mum ... :P
Mitsu Ishii: her mom said, "Just leave it to natural process!"
Mitsu Ishii: and my little cousin said, "But I am part of natural process!"
Eliza Madrigal: Ooooooh!
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Xeno Octavia: smart kid
Eliza Madrigal: /me guffaws @ Gaya
Xeno Octavia: whast isnt natural??
Eliza Madrigal: they get it... cut right through
Eliza Madrigal: /me smiles at Xeno
Zen Arado: Hi Dianket
Gaya Ethaniel: Cal was going to pick a topic from his list?
Xeno Octavia: hi Dia
Eliza Madrigal: Dianket, Hello :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Or is that for later?
Calvino Rabeni: @Dao, OK
Calvino Rabeni: I'll put it together for next week
Gaya Ethaniel: Great, looking forward to it, what's the homework then Cal?
Zen Arado: we were talking about goals and non-attaining but we didn't get anywhere :)
Dianket Wobbit: hello
Xeno Octavia: so that reached our goal : )
Zen Arado: yep :)
Mitsu Ishii: okay Calvino can you email us with which topic you want to choose?
Mitsu Ishii: before next week :)
Calvino Rabeni: TY I'll email it :)
Eliza Madrigal: (Dianket gave me the recommendation to read Zen Mind Beginners Mind hm...1.5 yrs or so ago now. Meant to say thanks. Hah :))
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Mitsu Ishii: ZMBM is a classic!
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks everyone :))
Mitsu Ishii: bye all, great to see everyone
Zen Arado: thanks to you too :)
Dianket Wobbit: uw Eliza soo happy it was of calue
Eliza Madrigal: yes indeed, a favorite
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks everyone :)
Dao Yheng: a pleasure, as always!
Eliza Madrigal: /me peels herself away from the computer
Mitsu Ishii: Trungpa loved it too and used to assign it as a text for his students
Mitsu Ishii: bye
Dao Yheng: (let's put ZMBM on our list sometime!)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Anyone needs invite to Google group?
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, great idea
Gaya Ethaniel: Please IM me your email address.
Xeno Octavia: nite all --thio if any want try book meet it on events/discuss at 5slt
Zen Arado: nite everyone
Zen Arado: and thanks
Calvino Rabeni: Gaya, I might need that invite
Xeno Octavia: i prolly do i not in googoo grup
Gaya Ethaniel: Sure will do :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Zen, I sent an invite did you get it?
Dao Yheng: bye all!
Eliza Madrigal: Xeno, sounds so nice but hard to make two meetings in a row... maybe when life slows down a tad :)
Zen Arado: to what Gaya?
Gaya Ethaniel: WoK Google email group
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for the invite though
Gaya Ethaniel: I will send again
Eliza Madrigal: Bye all :) See you Sunday maybe
Zen Arado: ok
Eliza Madrigal: :::waves::::