2010.05.20 - View

 Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mitsu :)
 Mitsu Ishii: hi everyone
 Calvino Rabeni: I probably have to leave at 3:30SLT
 Dao Yheng: today Mitsu looks like a jet trail to me
 Agatha Macbeth: Hello Mitsu
 Gaya Ethaniel: You both look fine to me.
 Dao Yheng: Shall we dig in then, Calvino?
 Dao Yheng: How are you finding writing reportsI'm still thinking about the comment you made in the one from last week?
 Mitsu Ishii: we were going to talk more about the view this week.
 Timbo Quan: hello Mitsu
 Dao Yheng: yes, I suppose I'm interested the "view" around writing reports :)
 Gaya Ethaniel: :)
 Dao Yheng: I personally found it a bit tricky to articulate exactly what I think my own view is
 Calvino Rabeni: I found it tricky alsy
 Calvino Rabeni: *also
 Mitsu Ishii: perhaps the question was too broadly framed
 Dao Yheng: Easier to notice the shifts
 Calvino Rabeni: Not hard to write about; but to see whether there is a kernel or bottom line is hard
 Mitsu Ishii: more specifically, I suppose, one could talk about an emphasis on view with respect to the point of practice
 Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick :)
 Agatha Macbeth: Mind me head Mick ;-)
 Mickorod Renard: hi
 Dao Yheng: (Hi Mickorod! Nice to see you again)
 Mickorod Renard: yes,,hi..long time
 Agatha Macbeth: No Eliza then?
 Gaya Ethaniel: Eliza said in her report, she will miss the meeting.
 Agatha Macbeth: Aww :(
 Mitsu Ishii: Stim/Steven has often talked about the importance of view with respect to practice
 Mitsu Ishii: that is to say, one can do the same practice, like sitting meditation
 Mitsu Ishii: with a variety of radically different views
 Gaya Ethaniel: Yes he introduced this point at a very early stage of the workshop.
 Mickorod Renard: /
 Calvino Rabeni: I forgot to put in my writeup, - "Everything is practice"
 Mickorod Renard: mental view?
 Dao Yheng: But sometimes the way I do it, everything is not practice too :)
 Calvino Rabeni: Well, I think of that as practice too :)
 Calvino Rabeni: Practice of unconsciousness perhaps
 Calvino Rabeni: One is always practicing *someway
 Dao Yheng: right -- just as we always have a view, whether examined or not
 Mickorod Renard: so its like reviewing an opinion?
 Gaya Ethaniel: Stim used an example of counting breath practice with different views1: Frame this practice with the view that an unfocused, scattered mind lies at the heart of many of life's problems, and that the practice should be used to help you learn to control the mind so that it eventually suffers no distractions and enjoys strict, uninterrupted awareness.
 Mitsu Ishii: I liked your post, Calvino, it definitely corresponds to my own take, very similar
 Gaya Ethaniel: 2.meet all distractions with compassionate inclusionSo anything that arises within your nature which seems likely to throw you off or make you lose the count should be met in a welcoming and inclusive way..and an _appreciative_ way! The view here is that there are no real distractions, only things that we haven't yet learned to appreciate as actually contributing toward a larger sense of presence.
 Agatha MacbethAgatha Macbeth nods
 Mickorod Renard: werfulond
 Gaya Ethaniel: 3.being disciplined and focused but also welcoming toward [disctractions] ... but attend in particular to the aliveness you can find within each part of the breath. Enter that aliveness and allow it to open up to more of itself. This is not about imagining anything, only seeing more of what is there.
 Calvino Rabeni: TY Mitsu
 Dao Yheng: I think it's not so difficult to notice how a narrow view can narrow my sense practice -- but I suppose what's surprising is that even a narrow view somehow admits surprises
 Gaya Ethaniel: I just pasted the three views as a reminder ...
 Agatha Macbeth: Ty Gaya
 Mickorod Renard: ty
 Gaya Ethaniel: :)
 Gaya Ethaniel: Until this workshop, I didn't pay much attention what kind of views I hold in terms of practice.
 Gaya Ethaniel: I think views are more important than actual meditation techniques etc.
 Gaya Ethaniel: ..perhaps most important :)
 Mitsu Ishii: of those three views, I more or less go with the second.
 Mitsu Ishii: I try, to the extent possible, to use that second view at all times
 Gaya EthanielGaya Ethaniel nods.
 Gaya Ethaniel: Third one is useful in exploring particular aspects etc.
 Gaya Ethaniel: Third mode*
 Dao Yheng: Interesting! I actually tend to take the opposite point of view -- that a view may be an expression of being, but it's not so easy for me to work with a view per se
 Gaya Ethaniel: Well, I'm not sure how I work with viewsI just noticed that I strongly held the first view at the beginning of my practice and effects of it.
 Calvino Rabeni: With me it is mostly #2, sometimes #3
 Gaya Ethaniel: I'm sure even with an exact instruction of counting breath, not everyone would hold [consciously or not] a same view.
 Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for posting that
 Mickorod Renard: its refreshing to be reminded of Stims workings
 Gaya Ethaniel: :)
 Dao Yheng: Even the same person would not hold exactly the same view moment to moment
 Gaya Ethaniel: That's true also.
 Mickorod Renard: I can admit to operating these days with some ways that he has coloured me with
 Dao Yheng: :) Would you like to say more about that?
 Mickorod Renard: me?
 Gaya Ethaniel: :)
 Dao Yheng: yes!
 Mickorod Renard: he he
 Mickorod Renard: well, I work in a very bizzare environment
 Mickorod Renard: a school full of kids
 Mickorod Renard: lots of stresses and little logic
 Dao Yheng: :)
 Timbo Quan: sounds like work
 Calvino Rabeni: OMG Mick :)
 Gaya Ethaniel: :)
 Mickorod Renard: but from being able to press on with the daily chores,,in a positive,,open way is very rewarding
 Mickorod Renard: and seeing other collegues struggle,,only makes me aware of the ways of thinking I have addopted from these classes
 Mickorod Renard: adopted
 Mickorod Renard: being open to diferent views
 Mickorod Renard: very useful
 Mickorod Renard: done
 Gaya Ethaniel: :)
 Mickorod Renard: :)
 Dao Yheng: A highly charged situation -- can either go very smoothly or very badly?
 Mickorod Renard: yes
 Mickorod Renard: control is often thought of as forcful
 Mickorod Renard: or imposing
 Mickorod Renard: but by being open and free,,is strangely liberating
 Mickorod Renard: and is imune to outside conroling forces
 Mickorod Renard: scuse spelling
 Gaya Ethaniel: :) I do remember you working with 'control'.
 Mickorod Renard: yes
 Mickorod Renard: :)
 has expanded and opened up since :)
 Mickorod Renard: now I dont fight the fight, I am just free to pass unafected
 Mickorod Renard: to a point
 Gaya Ethaniel: :)
 Mickorod Renard: and I think much comes from opening ones views
 Gaya Ethaniel: How would you aritculate your view now Mick?
 Gaya Ethaniel: Say view on life etc.
 Mickorod Renard: there are more ways to skin a rabbit
 Gaya Ethaniel: :)
 Mickorod Renard: he he
 Dao Yheng: (are we back to bunnies:)
 Mickorod Renard: I seem to see most things as humerous
 Gaya Ethaniel: :)
 Gaya Ethaniel: May I ask if you have a regular practice or a sort Mick?
 Mickorod Renard: humourous
 Gaya Ethaniel: I know you were doing 9 sec.
 Mickorod Renard: well,,I like to think everyday is a practice
 Gaya Ethaniel: I mean a formal one like 9 sec or otherson top of everyday part.
 Mickorod Renard: but I am enjoying life so much now,,I am worrying I wont have long enough to explore it all
 Gaya Ethaniel: wow that's big.
 Mickorod Renard: well, I treat my cigar smoking as a time to contemplate
 Gaya Ethaniel: lol again!
 Dao Yheng: :))
 Gaya Ethaniel: I'm sure nicotine keeps things pretty regular.
 Mickorod Renard: but break times are a good time for reflexion,,and to reflect on how events have a toll on collegues
 Dao Yheng: Yes, the wisdom of taking breaks!
 Calvino Rabeni: Life has so many dimensions; one meta-practice is to become aware of and partake in them
 Calvino Rabeni: As a matter of balance
 Calvino Rabeni: Ecclesiastes
 Gaya Ethaniel: Actually that is what I'd describe as 'everyday' practice CalvinoDon't you think it's helpful to have a formal practice on top as well?
 Gaya Ethaniel: Even like a micro-meditation practised at PaB.
 Mickorod Renard: someone said in pab a while back,,Eliza I think,,about how work or chores enjoyed is enrichening,,chores disliked are exhausting
 Mickorod Renard: I think I can now see a patern in how many people with a diferent view on what they are doing,,even though its the same as others,,become exhausted
 Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, not wanting to do while doing it deplates energy unnecessarily.
 Mitsu Ishii: although I take an "everyday practice" view as well, I have to say that I think retreats make a big difference.
 Dao Yheng: Yes, Eliza's refridgerater-cleaning koan -- a favorite!
 Mickorod Renard: I have only been on the one,,it was very rewarding
 Mitsu Ishii: that is, I take life as my practice and try to practice in every day moments: when I wake up, when I rest, sitting in the subway.
 Gaya Ethaniel: The view behind that would be 'chores aren't important/essential'In fact, chores are as vital as eating, sleeping etc...
 Calvino Rabeni: @gaya, Yes, I believe a moderate amount of formal practices are good to have
 Mitsu Ishii: but retreats, despite the fact that I do them without an idea of "gaining" or getting "better"
 Mitsu Ishii: still have a big effectjust the gesture of practicing for long periods for a week or more.
 Calvino Rabeni: Formal practices help overcome unconsciousness and refine skills
 Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I think retreats are good especially for people with very busy schedules.
 Calvino Rabeni: But I'd rather have an aware ordinary life than a life of formality
 Calvino Rabeni: I think a little formality goes a long way
 Calvino Rabeni: Some people seem to get stuck init?
 Mitsu Ishii: have people felt they had trouble applying an inclusive view to things that happen in everyday life?
 Mitsu Ishii: for example, something is really upsetting, etc.
 Mickorod Renard: oddly, by removing my own sense of self importance has also alowed me an oportunity, psychologically, to step back,,and watch the effects of the world around me,,this is a regular break i give myself
 Gaya Ethaniel: I guess it offers a dramatic 'change of scenery' in terms of place and schedules.
 Mitsu Ishii: it's not just the change of scenery --- it's more the space of a lot of practiceI think of practice more as a space, an opening, than it is an effort to achieve something.
 Dao Yheng: Hmm, change of scenery as another way to take a break
 Gaya Ethaniel: Actually 'naturalness' workshops help me with being inclusive MitsuWhen feeling upset, I really feel it and accept as 'natural' but not indulge.
 Calvino Rabeni: Agree Mitsu
 Mitsu Ishii: when you have a lot of space, then your life can sort of come forward more, because there's less to obstruct it
 Mitsu Ishii: less "stuff" going on
 Gaya Ethaniel: Break and lots of space because of change of schedule ..I meant the same.
 Calvino Rabeni: Too much of anything is limiting - too much detachment, to much engagement
 Calvino Rabeni: And of course, we're attached to each of those in different ways simultaneously
 Mickorod Renard: I think many are drowning in a suffocation of self imposed importance
 Calvino Rabeni: Well that's a desert Mick
 Gaya Ethaniel: :)
 Calvino Rabeni: And a paradox
 Calvino Rabeni: If importance is self-imposed, it feels inauthentic
 Calvino Rabeni: Substitute for the real thing, perhaps?
 Mickorod Renard: self imposed is from my perspective
 Gaya Ethaniel: I think it just needs a little tweakingI'm important equally as everyone else.
 Mickorod Renard: anyone can choose to step out of it for a few seconds
 Calvino Rabeni: Well, I believe we are important *throughothers
 Calvino Rabeni: Any importance needs witnesses
 Gaya Ethaniel: Or go on a retreat :P
 Mickorod Renard: but I in the past,,and others around me feel that the world will end if they stop for a second
 Mitsu Ishii: right, a change of schedule, but also the formal practice which is basically mostly about opening spacelike sitting meditation: just sitting there with no partiocular purpose.
 Mitsu Ishii: in fact, that's precisely why it's so important, the view
 Calvino Rabeni: Relative to importance - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_(philosophy)
 Mitsu Ishii: because if we turn practice into a kind of goal-oriented task, it becomes something that fills up the space again.
 Gaya EthanielGaya Ethaniel nods.
 Calvino Rabeni: Consider the need of others, a school or help, whether formal or not
 Mitsu Ishii: rather, we just sit or whatever the practice happens to be, without an idea of a goal, and thereby let life come forward a bit moreI find that really helpful after a week or more of retreat.
 Calvino Rabeni: And a regular experience of "communion"
 Mickorod Renard: can I read that later Cal?
 Calvino Rabeni: Yes it is for later
 Mitsu Ishii: ah, we need a theme for the next week.
 Gaya Ethaniel: mhm :)
 Calvino Rabeni: How about "help"
 Gaya Ethaniel: I'd prefer something more practical.
 Gaya Ethaniel: For a change :)
 Dao Yheng: do you have a suggestion for us gaya?
 Calvino Rabeni: what could be more practcal than help?
 Calvino Rabeni: You mean, technical?
 Gaya Ethaniel: We could go back to 'dream' in Lojong or a variation of it?
 Gaya Ethaniel: Life as dream or as Zen suggested all dharmas are dream.
 Gaya Ethaniel: Or any reports related to dreams :)
 Calvino Rabeni: Something practical?
 Dao Yheng: (I could reuse this week's report!)
 Gaya Ethaniel: Something like a concerete practice based one Clavino.
 Gaya Ethaniel: lol
 Gaya Ethaniel: Dao you could join a dream circle happening next week - fyi http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...A_Dream_Circle
 Mickorod Renard: I like the idea of practical ways of presenting quality escape moments
 Gaya Ethaniel: Wed next week 7 am SLT at PaB
 Mitsu Ishii: okay how's this
 Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that sounds good
 Mitsu Ishii: we do dreams, and talk about dreams, but also perhaps we can think about the lojong phrase "Renew your commitment when you get up and before you go to sleep."
 Mitsu Ishii: I use that myself quite a bit
 Gaya Ethaniel: Sounds good :)
 Dao Yheng: And can our dreams be quality escape moments too:)
 Calvino Rabeni: For future reference, I was thinking "how to deal with tiredness"
 Gaya Ethaniel: :)
 Mickorod Renard: the renew of commitment sounds a lil like sayin a prayer
 Calvino Rabeni: or a vow
 Mickorod Renard: yes
 Calvino Rabeni: those are good angles too :)
 Gaya Ethaniel: Or even reminding of a view :)
 Calvino Rabeni: OO, GTG everyone, thanks much :)
 Mickorod Renard: Stim used to stress on loving our self more
 Mitsu Ishii: it can just be a commitment to presence
 Mickorod Renard: bye Cal
 Mitsu Ishii: bye
 Gaya Ethaniel: Bye :)
 Dao Yheng: OK, thanks all!
 Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks everyone :)
 Timbo Quan: thanks everyone - bye
 Mickorod Renard: thankyou for bein so accomodating of me
 Gaya Ethaniel: wb Mick :)
 Mickorod Renard: :)