2010.10.21 - Mindfulness

Gaya Ethaniel: hello everyone :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Freud :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bruce
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce :)
Freud Jungsten: siyo
Eliza Madrigal: brb
Bruce Mowbray: Hellooooooo. . . . just s sec. . .
Eliza Madrigal: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
Eliza Madrigal: More than likely Zen will be a little late... think he has a group he attends thursdays so a bit of delay...
Eliza Madrigal: He gave us "mindfulness" homework last week
Eliza Madrigal: Ah...
Eliza Madrigal: care to make a prediction bruce?
Eliza Madrigal: /me snickers
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Bruce and Zen :)
Eliza Madrigal: (Bruce is good at predicting zen's arrival)
Bruce Mowbray: He should already be here....
Wol Euler: /me applauds
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: I mean, I saw him come into sl a cople of minutes ago.
Bruce Mowbray: couple*
Bruce Mowbray: Hello Zen!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi zen
Zen Arado: Hi All - as predicted :)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Zen Arado: nice place yo got here
Eliza Madrigal: We haven't begun really Zen. Would you like to say a few words about why you chose 'mindfulness' for our topic?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: It's beautiful -- Storm did a fantastic job.
Eliza Madrigal: WB Mick
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Mick.
Zen Arado: well - as Cal said - we looked at Presence a couple of weeks ago
Mickorod Renard: Hi,,sorry
Zen Arado: and mindfulness seems the action part of that
Zen Arado: and I think it is quite important
Zen Arado: Hi Mick
Mickorod Renard: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Zen Arado: and it is becoming very widespread in the medical and psychotherapt field
Eliza Madrigal: It seemed from the reports we have different sorts of ideas on what mindfulness is?
Zen Arado: or maybe different emphases
Mickorod Renard: can someone refresh me with an example?
Zen Arado: mant therapists are sending patients for mindfulnes meditation instead of CBT etc
Mickorod Renard: as if its that simple :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dao :)
Zen Arado: it's really about staying present in the each moment I think
Dao Yheng: (Hi all, sorry I'm late)
Zen Arado: - in the :)
Mickorod Renard: mm yes
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi dao
Eliza Madrigal: So mindfulness is the sense of 'presence of mind'?
Mickorod Renard: Hi Dao
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Dao :)
Eliza Madrigal: *in=is
Zen Arado: Hi Dao
Zen Arado: excuse my bad typing
Mickorod Renard: sort of focused and not distracted by irrelevant thoughts?
Eliza Madrigal: like 'presence of mind for this task... attention span but on a deeper level?
Zen Arado: but you can use it to focus on your habitual reactivity
Eliza Madrigal: just asking questions to compare...
Dao Yheng: I did sort of wonder what everyone might say -- what is the diff between being mindful in practice, versus being mindful generally (learning to bowl, or whatever)? Mindfulness is good advice in general...
Zen Arado: sometimes you have to concentrate on your work etc
Wol Euler: /me grins at Fu.
Wol Euler: following the green dots, eh?
Zen Arado: I think mindfulness can be construed as being deeper than mere concentration
Eliza Madrigal: Hi again Fu :) This is Ways of Knowing workshop...
Mickorod Renard: Hi Fu,,again
Eliza Madrigal: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
Eliza Madrigal: you're welcome to join us.
Mickorod Renard: perhaps its total immersion?
Zen Arado: it is like vipassana meditation to me
Zen Arado: when you use mindfulness meditation
Eliza Madrigal: interesting
Dao Yheng: (oh yes, the distinction between mindfulness and concentration was pointed out in a couple places in the essays you chose, Zen)
Zen Arado: hey - I am not an expert on this :)
Eliza Madrigal: thank goodness :)
Zen Arado: glad to hear other's interpretations
Mickorod Renard: in my work its incredibly hectic,,with lots of distractions,,a collegue said today how lovely it had been to play tennis yesterday afternoon as she was able to rid her mind of all the madness of the mornings work and be lost in the game she was playing
Zen Arado: but that's more like distraction Mick?
Mickorod Renard: but is it?
Dao Yheng: so, in that sense, mindfulness is letting go of concentration?
Bruce Mowbray: For me, mindfulness is a general aspiration - which I may attempt to fulfill in a variety of methods . . . (Tennis is one of them.)
Mickorod Renard: she was concentrating heavily on just one thing,,the game
Bruce Mowbray: Dao's question is very good.
Dao Yheng: (or of fixation, let's say)
Eliza Madrigal: hmm... yes funny. once I solved a complex issue in my life by playing tetris for 3 hours...
Bruce Mowbray: /me is pondering "Letting go of concentration."
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Cal.
Zen Arado: yes but if there is something emotional you need to deal with and you go off and do something else ....is what I mean by distraction
Eliza Madrigal: one part was busy which allowed insight to kick in...
Zen Arado: Hi Cal :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cal :)
Wol Euler: hello cal
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Cal :)
Calvino Rabeni: :) Hi everyone
Mickorod Renard: yes, i see what u mean Zen
Bruce Mowbray: others "solve problems" by "sleeping on them."
Mickorod Renard: Hi cal
Zen Arado: interesting Eliza - I am trying to find out about 'intuitive intelligence'
Mickorod Renard: I have experienced the mode of being very present in a mayhem,,and seeing more clearly
Mickorod Renard: sort of almost out of body
Zen Arado: or more in body maybe
Mickorod Renard: and timeless
Eliza Madrigal: hmmm
Mitsu Ishii: "concentration" implies effort
Zen Arado: less mind more body
Mitsu Ishii: but mindfulness I think is beyond effort, it's almost the opposite of effort
Wol Euler: /me nods.
Mickorod Renard: yes
Zen Arado: yes ' like just giving spave around an emotion
Zen Arado: space*
Calvino Rabeni: Odd perhaps to listen to the word, but mindfulness marshalls more than the "mind"
Wol Euler: like in the flow state, you have concentration but you don't do it :)
Mitsu Ishii: Krishnamurti is rumored to have said once when asked, near the end of his life, to summarize his teaching, he said "Remain completely alert, and make no effort."
Bruce Mowbray: mmmm. "Aspiration" is more general (less focused) than "intention."
Eliza Madrigal: capacity
Mickorod Renard: I supose we normaly experience a form of panic,,even though we may not like to call it that,,but mindfulness may be the ability to avoid that panic
Zen Arado: nice quote Mitsu
Eliza Madrigal: /me nods @ Mick... yes interesting...
Bruce Mowbray: or, perhaps, to know that panic and go through it.
Eliza Madrigal: stablilization
Zen Arado: yes but more lioke staying wiht the emotion generated by the panic
Calvino Rabeni: Being mindful within a physical melee... involves "thinking" with the body and emotions and more
Zen Arado: if you are able in the situation
Zen Arado: sometimes it could be good to relive a situation and experience the emotions again in meditation
Mickorod Renard: its the panic that keeps us away from the mindfulness that would ultimately be so much more beneficial
Bruce Mowbray: So, Cal, 'mindfulness' is a full-body awareness?
Dao Yheng: yes, during tai chi class last night, I was noticing how my connection to the space and so forth would collapse when I felt "threatened"
Calvino Rabeni: What does it take to stay aware while having strong emotions?
Mickorod Renard: maybe there is a better word than panic
Zen Arado: but you might that energy to cope with a RL situation?
Eliza Madrigal: oh wow, Dao
Calvino Rabeni: @bruce I would ssy yes to your question
Mickorod Renard: adrenelin wud be good,,but maybe thats panic for me sometimes
Bruce Mowbray: Even though Dao's "space" collapsed, she was still mindful -- of that colapse.
Eliza Madrigal: that's sort of what I was getting at with 'stability' but that is a powerful snapshot
Eliza Madrigal: to notice that at subtle levels too, yes
Mickorod Renard: nice Dao
Mitsu Ishii: in a martial arts context being mindful can literally mean dropping any sense of me vs the other person in combat. it becomes just a flow of energy and timing and bodies
Dao Yheng: (thanks for reminding me of it Mickorod!)
Zen Arado: ah yes Mitsu
Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes it's also like staring down the barrel of a gun
Mickorod Renard: :)
Calvino Rabeni: turing into whatever you feel like turning away from
Zen Arado: was fascinated with Fischer's description of the difference between self consciousness and mindfulness
Calvino Rabeni: Yes thats an important distinction
Dao Yheng: oh, that's a good one too -- the sense that mindfulness is not particularly connected to a self
Calvino Rabeni: mindfulness sees through self, self-consciousness stops there
Zen Arado: like just anger instead of 'my anger'
Zen Arado: need to practice that one
Wol Euler: an interesting distinction.
Zen Arado: or 'there is jealousy' instead of ' Iam jealous'
Mickorod Renard: I need this for my d in law who is too self concious with her drama acting
Calvino Rabeni: Like, how big is the radius of my awareness, what all does it include, and does it go beyond my "self concept"
Zen Arado: yes
Gaya Ethaniel: Who's seeing jealousy ... ?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: no one - it is just there is the point?
Calvino Rabeni: No
Calvino Rabeni: seeing more, seeing more of how I participate in jealousy
Calvino Rabeni: owning it too
Calvino Rabeni: it is the seeing that counts, not the labeling
Calvino Rabeni: to see more of myself is to see more of not-myself
Bruce Mowbray: noting how jealousy tends to "collapse' the space. . .
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, what gets left out by the collapse?
Mickorod Renard: recognising it is part of the remedy?
Zen Arado: ah - well I still see the end of this as the self concept diminishing
Calvino Rabeni: Blind spots
Calvino Rabeni: But zen, that is an end goal
Zen Arado: oh yes
Calvino Rabeni: the means or way is the how of it
Calvino Rabeni: and I think we can't do that for an end purpose,
Bruce Mowbray: thus, mindfulness is an aspiration - not a goal, as such.
Calvino Rabeni: and if we do it for itself, the end will follow
Zen Arado: no - but it will diminish naturally I hope
Mickorod Renard: mmm,,reminds me of my problems with my idealistic issues
Calvino Rabeni: Why hope that?
Zen Arado: think mindfulness is just a technique
Calvino Rabeni: I think, mindfulness does not play favorites
Zen Arado: cos I think egoic causes me suffering
Bruce Mowbray: /me hopes for more from Mich about his ideaism.
Zen Arado: egoic self *
Bruce Mowbray: idealism*
Zen Arado: yes Mick?
Calvino Rabeni: just seeing woudl be prior to labeling something as egoic
Zen Arado: oh yes - agree seeing is enough
Mickorod Renard: spend more ytime in the present and not insome futuere might be
Mickorod Renard: scuse spelling
Eliza Madrigal: /me nods...
Eliza Madrigal: or in some 'should be' or when I, then...
Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps theres a real and conjectural present just as a real and conjectural future
Mickorod Renard: yes
Calvino Rabeni: Many martial artists are familiar with the conjectural prestent
Calvino Rabeni: *present
Calvino Rabeni: the idea of the present
Zen Arado: yes - whatever 'real' is
Mickorod Renard: not sure I am with that Cal
Zen Arado: we construct the present you mean Cal?
Mickorod Renard: can u say more?
Calvino Rabeni: The "idea" of the present is what people consider the present
Zen Arado: in our minds?
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Zen Arado: yes
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Mick ... when with someone, seeing the person [mindfulness?] rather than operating based on what has gone before or what may be or may not be etc.
Mickorod Renard: mm
Calvino Rabeni: it has little to do with time
Calvino Rabeni: it is as easy to be in the idea of the present as the idea of the future
Gaya Ethaniel: Which I think is to do with time actually ...
Mickorod Renard: yes gaya
Calvino Rabeni: so in that case the present / future distinction is secondayr
Mickorod Renard: mmm interesting
Zen Arado: there was a great BBC TV prog the ohter night called 'seeing is believing' - they reckon that seeing is 10 % vision 90% made up by the brain
Bruce Mowbray: wow.
Calvino Rabeni: The notion "be in the present" really means, be in the actual situation, not the idea of it
Calvino Rabeni: it's not about time
Bruce Mowbray: "we make our own worlds."
Zen Arado: we see things that aren't actually there
Calvino Rabeni: @zen that's interesting to keep in mind
Calvino Rabeni: the conjectural present
Mickorod Renard: I missed that Zen,,what is going on in the 90%?
Calvino Rabeni: that appears as perception
Zen Arado: you should watch again on Iplayer Mick
Mickorod Renard: is that 90% conceptual?
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Mickorod Renard: ok,,good idea
Bruce Mowbray: I note the unsatisfactory-ness of my present non-awareness, so I aspire (in the present) to be more "mindful."
Bruce Mowbray: a paradox.
Zen Arado: the brain constructs reality from visual infromation but it also predicts what and uses shortcuts
Eliza Madrigal: lots of space available ... we sort of connect the dots to write a story or picture
Calvino Rabeni: yes, perception is mainly an anticipatory system
Mickorod Renard: can we say perhaps,,that mindfulness changes the percentage of actual seeing as aposed to conceptual?
Mickorod Renard: uopsed*
Calvino Rabeni: It might, Mick
Mickorod Renard: oops
Calvino Rabeni: but it might also make the seeing more adaptable and flexible
Bruce Mowbray: agree, Mick, and also expands our "seeing" to the rest of the body.
Mickorod Renard: now then,,that makes it more tangiable
Calvino Rabeni: in that case it uses the faculty of imagination
Zen Arado: it's amazing - a conjuror threw a ball into the air twice - the 3rd time heonly mimiced throwing it - yet you SAW the red bal go up in the air
Mickorod Renard: so we could suppose that our reliance on imagination could be defective?
Calvino Rabeni: sounds like a good program
Zen Arado: minicked *
Eliza Madrigal: it was intersting zen that you mentioned vipassana but not shamatha (sp?)...
Calvino Rabeni: No mick, imagination is what lets us keep up with realityh
Mickorod Renard: whatever reality is?
Zen Arado: well Shamatha ids concentration meditation is it not?
Calvino Rabeni: perception and thinking alone is not enough to keep up with reality
Dao Yheng: shamatha is more calm abiding
Calvino Rabeni: realiity is the stuff that will feed or kill us if we don't behave correctly
Zen Arado: our brain has too much info to process so it predicts and uses shortcuts
Bruce Mowbray: stability/clarity (calm abiding)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes zen
Zen Arado: more efficient
Eliza Madrigal: shamatha yes I relate to as calm abiding... which then allows the stability for vipassana/insight....
Zen Arado: yes agree Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: but not as separate... so just clarifying... thanks
Calvino Rabeni: Our mind is like a flock of birds flying out to greet reality on many fronts, then massing in useful directions
Zen Arado: mindfulnees seems more related to vipassana though?
Bruce Mowbray: If I really wanted to understand "vision," I would consult a blind person.
Wol Euler: heh
Mickorod Renard: in some way,,life is like playing a video game and we have to react all thetime to whats presented,,but is there a way of changing this perception?
Bruce Mowbray: He/she knows how to "see" in many ways.
Eliza Madrigal: :) Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Pinball wizard. . .
Dao Yheng: :))
Bruce Mowbray: TOMMY by The Who
Calvino Rabeni: Vision is an ultra complex process... science is starting to look at the first "half second" in which the construction occurs
Bruce Mowbray: Tis true.
Zen Arado: yes there was a guy who rides a bike using clicks - kind of bat echo location
Zen Arado: @ Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: Mick maybe 'response' rather than reaction might be helpful...
Calvino Rabeni: Ways of Knowing ... seeing is not separate from knowing as a process
Mickorod Renard: in science journal it said recently the brain wires up blind people diferently to enhance their abilities using other senses
Calvino Rabeni: most of the confusion is due to assuming things work in a linear, step by step fashion
Bruce Mowbray: "knowing" sounds almost too "certain"
Zen Arado: yes - other senses are developed more to compensate
Mickorod Renard: yes Eliza,,my choice of words are not the best :(
Calvino Rabeni: Unless you allow for multivalued logic, Bruce
Calvino Rabeni: there
Eliza Madrigal: you are great Mick... and yes just words but one seems softer and less a 'doing' we have to figure out
Calvino Rabeni: 'is aristotle biting us again
Mickorod Renard: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Since then, contradiction is regarded as a sign of logical error, rather than a sign of living in a complex world
Mitsu Ishii: there's another way to respond to life than the video game approach
Calvino Rabeni: and therefore shunned and not used as a teacher
Eliza Madrigal: no more 'accurate' ... but somehow that there is a natural, appropriate response always available is comforting :)
Wol Euler: /me nods to Cal.
Bruce Mowbray: that ol' zero sum thingie -- either/or?
Mitsu Ishii: that is to say, you can "flow" and be inside the wave, so to speak
Mitsu Ishii: instead of reacting to apparent stimuli, you become the whole flow
Bruce Mowbray: /me listens intently.
Mickorod Renard: but Mitsui,,isnt it the other way that we are looking for?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mitsu Ishii: when I did martial arts there were two ways you can do it
Zen Arado: agree Mitsu
Mitsu Ishii: one is you react to the other person
Calvino Rabeni: When one says "accurate" try to throw out aristotles logic, because it can't keep up nor model how our systems really work
Mitsu Ishii: the other is you unify with the whole context and give up 'reacting'
Gaya Ethaniel: Few minutes left ...
Eliza Madrigal: mmmm
Mitsu Ishii: the second way... you can respond often even before the other person starts to move
Mickorod Renard: interesting Mitsui
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that is how we work anyway
Calvino Rabeni: we have responses lined up for possibilities that haven't actualized yet
Dao Yheng: Gaya, do you have something in mind for next week?
Zen Arado: agrees with Cal about limitations of logical thought
Mickorod Renard: isnt that like idealism though?
Eliza Madrigal: /me listens
Calvino Rabeni: parallel anticipatory systems, is what we are
Gaya Ethaniel: mm ... no, sorry :(
Eliza Madrigal: aw :(
Zen Arado: nice Cal :)
Dao Yheng: I seem to remember you mentioning something about your explorations on self ---
Mickorod Renard: optdealism,,thats what we wat
Mickorod Renard: a quantum idealism
Gaya Ethaniel: mm ... well I just comment sometimes on topics suggested ... self is relevant in many topics so ...
Dao Yheng: OK, too broad you think?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ... too big a topic I think.
Zen Arado: could look at self in different disciplines
Mickorod Renard: in what way look at self?
Zen Arado: it's called 'personal identity' in philosophy
Calvino Rabeni: The philosopher John ODonohue considered the topic of Beauty ... by looking at it every possible facet, all the sense modalities, its uses, etc.
Gaya Ethaniel: oh Zen, thank you!
Calvino Rabeni: not in the abstract that is
Gaya Ethaniel: I look forward to your suggestion :P
Mickorod Renard: cant I just send u a photo?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: thought J.O Donohue was an Irish poet?
Bruce Mowbray: "Beauty" would be a fine topic.
Eliza Madrigal: /me waves at Storm...
Storm Nordwind: /me waves
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes that sounds nice too.
Wol Euler: hello storm
Eliza Madrigal: Everything looks great Storm
Zen Arado: Hi Storm
Gaya Ethaniel: ty Storm :)
Wol Euler: yes, well done.
Calvino Rabeni: ODonohue was a celtic-catholic theologian and philosopher
Calvino Rabeni: Irish
Zen Arado: so nice to have a view outside :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Storm,,thankyou for all the lovely things u have done
Storm Nordwind: /me "Glad you feel at home here"
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, that would be an interesting angle Cal too...
Zen Arado: oh - maybe I am thinking of a different one
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.amazon.com/Beauty-Invisible-Embrace-John-Odonohue/dp/0060957263/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1287698501&sr=1-1
Calvino Rabeni: it woudl be ....
Calvino Rabeni: Yes a great book
Calvino Rabeni: also Anam Cara
Bruce Mowbray: Wonderful work, Storm!
Calvino Rabeni: for an alternative to either Buddhist or really Christian views
Eliza Madrigal: Lia was just talking about an exercize of 'looking for I' which reminded me of a meditation of looking for the self...
Eliza Madrigal: "Am I my toe?"
Zen Arado: no - same one - but think of him as a poet - oh well
Eliza Madrigal: anyway... throwing stuff out there :)
Bruce Mowbray: priest, poet, author. . .
Calvino Rabeni: I think there's a foregone conclusion that if you take it apart, you won't find it by reductionism
Eliza Madrigal: I look forward to seeing next week's homework
Bruce Mowbray: ;-) me too.
Mickorod Renard: I dont know if i can stand reading another book
Eliza Madrigal: :)) Mick
Calvino Rabeni: Not in a week
Zen Arado: what is the homework?
Zen Arado: you want to do 'personal identity'?
Calvino Rabeni: Let's nominate someone
Eliza Madrigal: I think Gaya passed the football to you, Zen...
Eliza Madrigal: Sure
Gaya Ethaniel: Well that was a part of what Heart Sutra was talking about I think.
Mickorod Renard: if i can get it on cd ihave time while i am asleep to listen to it
Gaya Ethaniel: Anyway yeah sorry Zen I passed the buck.
Eliza Madrigal: :)) it is collaboration
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe Bruce?
Zen Arado: ok - but it is philosophical topic
Eliza Madrigal: ah
Eliza Madrigal: >gasp< Zen!
Gaya Ethaniel: Philosopyhy - love of truth ...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Dao Yheng: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Bruce passes -- because this is just his first visit to this group. . . (Thanks anyway, Cal.)
Gaya Ethaniel: That's what it means apparently.
Mickorod Renard: it always appears an aruament about truth
Calvino Rabeni: TY Bruce, you seem like you've always been here
Calvino Rabeni: did not mean to put you on the spot :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Does "truth" exist in a "postmodern world"?
Wol Euler: do either of those categories exist without their "scare quotes"? :)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Calvino Rabeni: Or do we care?
Dao Yheng: :))
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night ... I will read the log later to find out about the topic.
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Zen Arado: :)
Mitsu Ishii: what's wrong with "scare quotes"?
Wol Euler: 'night gaya
Dao Yheng: night gaya!
Mickorod Renard: goodnight gaya
Eliza Madrigal: /me doesn't "know"
Mitsu Ishii: okay I've gotta go too
Zen Arado: nite Gaya :)
Wol Euler: /me "doesn#t" know.
Eliza Madrigal: Nite everyone
Mitsu Ishii: will check email for topic
Eliza Madrigal: hahahha
Wol Euler: bye mitsu
Bruce Mowbray: /me is too scared to know.
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Wol Euler: :)
Mickorod Renard: ok,,I am off home,, c u guys
Dao Yheng: truth and beauty then :)
Calvino Rabeni: I there post-postmodern happening now...
Zen Arado: nite Mick
Bruce Mowbray: /me is also hungry -- THANKS, everyone.
Calvino Rabeni: BUt I like the classics
Wol Euler: bye mick
Wol Euler: well, bye eveyrone!
Calvino Rabeni: like Beauty
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now. GOOD session!
Zen Arado: bye Bruce
Dao Yheng: bye!
Wol Euler: bye eliza, take care.
Eliza Madrigal: If the session persists... feel free to patch the log :) Bye everyone, and thanks so very much
Zen Arado: bye Eliza
Dao Yheng: bye eliza :)