2010.11.11 - Karuna (Compassion)

Zen Arado: you look like the ice maiden Eliza
Zen Arado: hope you melt :)
Eliza Madrigal: always winter never christmas?
Eliza Madrigal smiles I'm meant to be cloud like.... refreshing fog...
Eliza Madrigal: Hey Bruce :)
Aphrodite Macbain: we played dress up this morning
Eliza Madrigal: different workshop but what a beautiful report for time
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello everyone :)
Zen Arado: hi Bruce :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya! :)
Lia Rikugun is Offline
Eliza Madrigal: yes Aph and I have been playing heh
Aphrodite Macbain wonders whether people will take me seriously no that I'm dressed like this
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Aph, Eliza,Zen, Gaya, and Cor.
Eliza Madrigal: oh, way more so Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: now
Eliza Madrigal: in SL the 'rules' are different
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Aphrodite Macbain: he he. nice of you to say. but I don't believe you!
Zen Arado: do wanrt to be taken seriously Aphro?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Agatha!
Aphrodite Macbain: when I make serious statements
Agatha Macbeth: Hi
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Agatha :)
Zen Arado: Hi Aga :)
Aphrodite Macbain: It's hrd to make deep pronouncements wearing a clown hat
Eliza Madrigal: funny little story: last night I dreamed of these sofas... I was talking to Agatha and Wol and could really feel the upholstery!
Zen Arado: ponders being taken seriously
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: heh :)
Aphrodite Macbain: textured dreams
Aphrodite Macbain: compassion would be an acceptable alternative
Eliza Madrigal: there is more to the dream too... fael was telling me that in order to stay inworld longer and be comfortable, I needed to wear long johns :)
Aphrodite Macbain: ha ha. were you cold or shy?
Eliza Madrigal: hahaha I think I must have been cold
Eliza Madrigal: maybe it was a premonition about this get up
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: anyway... yes sorry. Back to compassion :)
Aphrodite Macbain grins at Eliza
Zen Arado: don't think you need longjohns in Florida
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: no,, not at all Zen :)
Zen Arado: Hi Gaya :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello :)
Eliza Madrigal: no report this week gaya :(
Gaya Ethaniel: Dao and Mitsu probably can't make it today also Heloise ...
Eliza Madrigal: nor cal/cor :(
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ... I just couldn't think of anything to write.
Eliza Madrigal: but so happy you managed Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Bruce posted the report well :)
Bruce Mowbray is trying to remember what he wrote....
Zen Arado: yes I liked Bruce's report
Eliza Madrigal: the four abodes... I hardly think of them that way, lovely

Zen Arado: "From a space of loving-kindness and compassion within myself, I can “help” without pushing anyone into weakness, can “fix” without pushing anyone into brokenness, and can “serve” without pushing anyone else into dependency or addiction. "

Eliza Madrigal: yes, stunning
Gaya Ethaniel: Something about compassion needing presence?
Bruce Mowbray: oh, I remember now....
Zen Arado: we were discussing how you could help those native Americans living in poverty this morning
Coffee Mug whispers: Ahh! Fresh Hot Coffee
Zen Arado: and this seems the way
Aphrodite Macbain: only this morning?
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: hmm
Zen Arado: yes - discussing the Ted video Wol gave a link to
Aphrodite Macbain: when was that? at the pavilion at 7?
Zen Arado: yes the 1am slt meeting
Aphrodite Macbain: ah
Zen Arado: it is so hard to put compassion into action
Aphrodite Macbain: it is the starting point for action, isn't it?
Zen Arado: and compassin without action is a waste of time really?
Eliza Madrigal: is some of what we were saying with compassion as ground, that our effort undermines compassion actually?
Zen Arado: in what way Eliza?
Aphrodite Macbain: I think if one developed the ability of compassion without immediately acting would be OK
Aphrodite Macbain: It's building the heart as well as the head
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes we think we are helping because we think it looks like helping looks
Zen Arado: why is that Aphro?
Zen Arado: if we thnk about too much it is not good either ?
Aphrodite Macbain: I mean that developing a compassionate "heart" sometimes takes time. It can be done silently, withour immeiate action. But ideally it would eventually help us to care for all sentient beings
Zen Arado: a spontaneous reaction sometimes
Gaya Ethaniel nods @ Eliza ... often create more problems.
Zen Arado: agree Aphro
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: I am not sure if we are born with a compassionate gene.. it is something that can be developed over a life time
Eliza Madrigal: yes.. I suppose there is some sense in which intention matters as well... that we can move with the best heart we have, and even if we make a mess good can come of it in the big picture....
Zen Arado: but think the practice and development are one
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, one would feed the other
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: but needs wisdom as well I think you are saying?
Eliza Madrigal: yes 'love born of wisdom not emotion'
Aphrodite Macbain: I think it's hard to feel compassionate for some people if we have never experienced what they are feeling
Zen Arado: thinks I have discussed this before and should practice it more and talk less :)
Eliza Madrigal: I'd like to paste zen's report text here as well if okay with everyone... at least the end part....
Aphrodite Macbain: It's a form of empathy, isn't it?
Bruce Mowbray: go ahead and post it, Eliza.
Eliza Madrigal: ty

Eliza Madrigal: "Pity allows one to deliver help from a safe distance, from an aloof height. Compassion has that 'co' prefix, and that means co-suffering, sharing another's suffering by jumping into the mire with them. To me this isn't about forcing oneself to care about something or someone because we 'should,' but more about seeing through and removing the barriers of self we erect around ourselves to protect ourselves from others, but that also insulate us from their suffering. Compassion arises naturally when we dare to be less self-protective; allow ourselves to be more open and vulnerable. And being less self-centred creates more awareness space for seeing the needs of others."

Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I thought we had planned to talk about compassion today Zen
Zen Arado: yes - empathy a prerequisite for compassion?
Aphrodite Macbain: Nicely put
Eliza Madrigal: you phrased this so well Zen. I struggled with how to talk about those 'near enemies'... what looks like compassion
Eliza Madrigal: or we 'work up'
Aphrodite Macbain: But it is hard for a person to feel compassion for somehting they have never experienced
Zen Arado: yes Aphro - was just reflecting that I don't put it into practice enough
Aphrodite Macbain: It is a form of focus or concentrating isn't it?
Aphrodite Macbain: a choice
Zen Arado: but then again if we don't feel compassion we won't be moved to do anything....
Aphrodite Macbain: I can chose to dismiss that grumpy person or to think about what is making him/her grumpy
Bruce Mowbray: Or, you can simply be present with his grumpiness.
Aphrodite Macbain: Compassion as a form of catalyst
Eliza Madrigal: what causes one to 'look into it' ?
Aphrodite Macbain: good point bruce. But that wont be being compassionate
Zen Arado: so maybe it is more about meditation and seeing htrough ego self that causes us to be protective and less caring?
Aphrodite Macbain: one perovokes no action and the other might provoke action
Bruce Mowbray: I differ -- I think compassion is simply being with the other.
Bruce Mowbray: Compassion is the Presence of Being with the "other."
Zen Arado: yes - understanding, listening...
Aphrodite Macbain: and feeling with the othr (passion)
Eliza Madrigal: does that imply capacity however...
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ... without sense of my/your problems.
Zen Arado: even giving presence
Aphrodite Macbain: feeling with
Eliza Madrigal: capacity to 'stay'
Aphrodite Macbain: patience
Aphrodite Macbain: I would find it hard to feel completely neutral when someone is in a troubled state
Aphrodite Macbain: I would like to think I would have empathy and compasion
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I agree, Aph. . . and that's why practice is required.
Gaya Ethaniel: Clarity doesn't mean neutrality ....
Zen Arado: hard to know the right thing to say.....
Bruce Mowbray: Nor does 'compassion' necessarily having the same feelings as the other.
Eliza Madrigal: say more Gaya?
Aphrodite Macbain: It is easier to act when one is motivated by (com)passion
Zen Arado: having the right feeling, heart, attitude can allay bungling attempts to help maybe..
Aphrodite Macbain: "right feeling" in the Buddhist sense Zen
Aphrodite Macbain: ?
Gaya Ethaniel: Just reminded of something Stim said a while ago ... practice helps us to see more, feel more, enjoy more etc. not about less or numb.
Zen Arado: well;;;with right heart
Aphrodite Macbain: it sharpens our senses?
Zen Arado: opens us and clams mind chatter that allows more seeing ?
Eliza Madrigal nods... thank you... yes
Zen Arado: calms*
Aphrodite Macbain: compassion does this?
Eliza Madrigal: compassionate action isn't always 'nice'...
Aphrodite Macbain: tough love
Zen Arado: 'have to be cruel to be kind'
Eliza Madrigal: in the right measure....
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: the word clarity for me has that sense of a sword slicing through obscurations....
Zen Arado: how do we show compassion in SL?
Zen Arado: Manjushri's sword
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes clear seeing
Eliza Madrigal: 'advice' is not enough to matter, mostly...
Zen Arado: do we receive compassion in SL?
Bruce Mowbray: If the sword is used with compassion, it brings things together rather than dividing them.
Aphrodite Macbain: It is the hardest to develop compassion when you feel hostile to people around you but it is the best way to practice. Cutting through our own prejudices to see what is there
Eliza Madrigal: ah, yes I think so... bot
Eliza Madrigal: *both
Zen Arado: compassionate words I suppose
Eliza Madrigal: indeed Aph
Zen Arado: yes Aphro
Eliza Madrigal: I've been reading in a book about 'petty tyrants'...
Aphrodite Macbain: yes?

Bruce Mowbray: What is it that makes "compassion" one of the Immeasurables?
Eliza Madrigal: the idea being that the people who really push one to the edges are the greatest gifts :)
Bruce Mowbray: Why isn't it just like any other "emotion"?
Aphrodite Macbain: what is the difference between a petty tyrant and any other?
Eliza Madrigal: as Dao said about metta the 'people who are ruining my life'
Zen Arado: don't know Bruce
Zen Arado: yes Eliza
Bruce Mowbray: Well, let me ask the questions a different way:
Eliza Madrigal: compassion seems a different planet from emotion ...
Aphrodite Macbain listens to Bruce
Eliza Madrigal listens
Zen Arado: because it is limitless?
Bruce Mowbray: What it is that makes the Four Immeasurables "different"?
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Wol :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Wol.
Eliza Madrigal: Nice, Zen...
Zen Arado: Hi Wol :)
Wol Euler: hello everyone
Eliza Madrigal: yes unconditioned
Agatha Macbeth: Hello :))
Aphrodite Macbain: different from?
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Wol
Agatha Macbeth: Eliza's dream comes true :)
Eliza Madrigal: hehe, we'll all have to sit on the sofa though
Agatha Macbeth: Ok
Zen Arado: feels texture :)
Aphrodite Macbain: is Wol wearing long underwear?
Wol Euler: ah! yes.
No room to sit here, try another spot.
Bruce Mowbray: How is Loving-Kindness different from simple loving or simply kindness?
Bruce Mowbray: How is Compassion different from empathy.
Wol Euler pats the cushion beside her.
Aphrodite Macbain: good question maybe kindness implies action and loving is the modifier of the action
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, aggers.
Gaya Ethaniel: No sense of self getting in the way I'd say ...
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
Eliza Madrigal: sorry about the fog :)
Agatha Macbeth: That's Liz
Gaya Ethaniel: But then I always talk about 'self' :P
Eliza Madrigal: undonditioned speaks to that for me... yes @ Gaya
Wol Euler: ice maiden?
Eliza Madrigal: that's what zen said.. hm...
Eliza Madrigal: maybe I should just go with that... both clouds and ice are about changing forms so okay :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Fog maiden
Gaya Ethaniel: Feels hot to me rather than cold :)
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Aphrodite Macbain: sauna?
Eliza Madrigal: these are my compassionate inclusive emanations...
Bruce Mowbray: so, if I am hearing Eliza rightly, there is an unconditioned presence with the 4 Immeasureables that might not be there with other emotional states, or other states of awareness?
Aphrodite Macbain: they are immeasurable, un boundable
Bruce Mowbray: So, let's say that I will be "compassionate" with the folks in Haiti who have cholera.
Eliza Madrigal: 'beings are limitless I vow to save them'
Aphrodite Macbain: and very fluid
Eliza Madrigal: numberless...
Aphrodite Macbain: yes Bruce
Gaya Ethaniel: That just sounds 'wrong' Bruce >.<
Bruce Mowbray: I've never been in Haiti or had cholera, so how am I to do that?
Eliza Madrigal: more accurate :)
Aphrodite Macbain: that was my point Bruce
Gaya Ethaniel: I will be compassionate ... weird
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: How can you feel someone's pain if you have never known what that pain feels like?
Bruce Mowbray: OK -- Let's say that I have the intention and will to be compassionate.
Aphrodite Macbain: You can think of it rationally, but not passionately
Gaya Ethaniel: That sounds odd too sorry ... :(
Aphrodite Macbain: compasion is a noun not a verb
Bruce Mowbray: OK -- Please re-phrase.... How shall we speak of being compassionate, then?
Gaya Ethaniel: Even love or empathy, one doesn't intend to bla ....
Adams Rubble is Online
Gaya Ethaniel: Not I or you being compassionate ...
Eliza Madrigal: there is a sense of exertion in 'being' compassionate... is that what you mean Gaya ... "I being compasionate" doesn't make sense?
Gaya Ethaniel: Just compassion ... well difficult to say beyond that.
Aphrodite Macbain: Try to feel feelings WITH others. Whether we act on that compassion is another things
Bruce Mowbray: One can have loving-kindness for persons that are NOT lovable. So, what's the problem with having compassion, too?
Aphrodite Macbain: no problem
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm being tricky sorry ... ^^;;;
Aphrodite Macbain: Is thre?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: there?
Eliza Madrigal: having....
Gaya Ethaniel: Having compassion sounds odd too ... :(
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Mickorod Renard: maybe we are just mincing words
Gaya Ethaniel: No I don't think so.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick!
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhhh. . . so perhaps the Four Immeasurables are like Abodes to hang out in. . . rather than something we do.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes but we are trying to understand their meanings
Cor Wylder: ahem
Eliza Madrigal: YES :::bells:::::
Bruce Mowbray: states of Mind, awareness, presence. . .
Eliza Madrigal: not sure about states of mind... but awareness and presence.. YES
Zen Arado: Mick is right - I keep getting the feeling I should be practicing it some way and not just talking
Bruce Mowbray: When I abide in Compassion, , , , then I am compassionate.
Aphrodite Macbain: Mick - I do hope you can join us rather than sittling alone over there near the fire
Cor Wylder: which might take active doing too!
Bruce Mowbray: First the presence and awareness, then the activity.
Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps you're cold
Gaya Ethaniel: Say ... in love or loving-kindness ... no one is having or making that ... there is no 'I' or 'you' ...
Eliza Madrigal: I just try not to get into compassion's way
Mickorod Renard: well,,i was having a negative mood,,he he
Gaya Ethaniel: Labels fall away no?
Mickorod Renard: I didnt want to infect you all
Eliza Madrigal: hahah Mick
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Eliza Madrigal: come to the circle :)
Aphrodite Macbain: what does that mood feel like?
Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps we can change it
Eliza Madrigal: we'll encompass you
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: with compassion :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: Compassion in action!
Mickorod Renard: thats kind,,cos it does feel lonely
Eliza Madrigal: Tada!
Gaya Ethaniel: aw
Mickorod Renard: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Zen Arado: so how do we do that?
Eliza Madrigal: we don't 'do' that
Aphrodite Macbain: First noticing, then acting upon one's observation
Zen Arado: let's give Mick compassion exercise
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: Let's not scare him away!
Zen Arado: ok we won't do it then :)
Aphrodite Macbain: what did you have in mind Zen?
Mickorod Renard: grin,,I think what helped me was when I was reading something about the four immeasurables
Eliza Madrigal: by nature space is compassionate perhaps.... making room... as Bruce said just being there :)
Zen Arado: don't know
Zen Arado: maybe that is the first thing - to not know
Bruce Mowbray: agree, Eliza.
Aphrodite Macbain: inviting connection
Zen Arado: be open to whatever
Aphrodite Macbain: and paying attention
Gaya Ethaniel: Even bad moods :)
Bruce Mowbray feels that the way to be compassionate is to BECOME Compassion itself.
Aphrodite Macbain: especially bad moods
Gaya Ethaniel: But give me a bit at a time Mick :P
Bruce Mowbray: Just as the way to love is to BECOME loving-kindness.
Aphrodite Macbain: how does one become compassion
Aphrodite Macbain: I can become compassionate - for a while
Bruce Mowbray: How does one become the presence of anything, Aphj?
Eliza Madrigal: maybe you are compassion Aph
Zen Arado: yes Mick?
Mickorod Renard: yes, it is refreshing to recognise,,when one is in a negative mood,,that others feel negative too,,its often a natural attitude to treat a negative person with resentment
Bruce Mowbray: Aph. sry.
Eliza Madrigal: already
Aphrodite Macbain: good question. I don't know the answer
Zen Arado: anyone ever chant the Metta sutra?
Gaya Ethaniel: Only if taken personally I guess Mick ... doesn't have to treat the person in bad mood negatively back necessarily.
Gaya Ethaniel: Karinaya sutta?
Zen Arado: Metta Sutta
translated by San Francisco Zen Centre

This is what should be accomplished by the one who is wise,
Who seeks the good and has obtained peace.

Let one be strenuous, upright and sincere,
Without pride, easily contented and joyous.
Let one not be submerged by the things of the world.
Let one not take upon one's self the burden of riches.
Let one's senses be controlled.
Let one be wise, but not puffed up and
Let one not desire great possessions even for one's family.
Let one do nothing that is mean or that the wise would reprove.

May all beings be happy.
May they be joyous and live in safety.
All living beings, whether weak or strong,
In high or middle or low realms of existence,
Small or great, visible or invisible,
Near or far, born or to be born,
May all beings be happy.

Let no one deceive another, nor despise any being in any state.
Let none by anger or hatred wish harm to another.
Even as a mother at the risk of her life
Watches over and protects her only child,
So with a boun
Zen Arado: dless mind should one cherish all living things,
Suffusing love over the entire world,
Above, below and all around without limit,
So let one cultivate an infinite good will toward the whole world.

Standing or walking, sitting or lying down,
During all one's waking hours
Let one practice the way with gratitude.

Not holding to fixed views,
Endowed with insight,
Freed from sense appetites,
one who achieves the way
Will be freed from the duality of birth and death.

Mickorod Renard: true,,but what i mean is that when one is negative,,one tends to become self pitying,,or agresive
Eliza Madrigal: beautiful Zen
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I use that sometimes but slightly different translation.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes not taking things personally certainly helps with the clarity
Aphrodite Macbain: and guides the action
Gaya Ethaniel: Taking things personally -- sense of self I think.
Zen Arado: 'not being submerged by the things of the world' just hit me
Gaya Ethaniel: Very strong sense of self ...
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Wol Euler: thank you, zen
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, thank you
Mickorod Renard: but sometime your own negativity may transcend that and still feel for others rather than self
Delani Gabardini is Online
Eliza Madrigal: there is a sense in which our part of compassion is taking responsibility.... the bodhisattva vows don't ask how people are behaving for instance... they just imply we take responsibility for them... anyway
Mickorod Renard: and I feel its about being less centred on self
Aphrodite Macbain: I notice negativity is chemically induced. I sometimes have a hard time calming donw and loosing my anger when adrenalin is pumping around my body
Eliza Madrigal: it is a radical vision
Aphrodite Macbain: counting to ten is a good start...:-}
Zen Arado: we lose discrimination between 'good' and 'bad' people
Eliza Madrigal: and not according to some rule book.. ie 'screaming is to be met with a hard slap :)
Aphrodite Macbain: emotional intelligence
Aphrodite Macbain: who said that/Queen Victoria?
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
Gaya Ethaniel: Actually if you read the beginning of the sutta, it talks about stuff that doesn't seem to be related to metta.
Eliza Madrigal: yes?
Gaya Ethaniel: Be able and upright, straightforward and gentle in speech for example ...
Eliza Madrigal: mmm
Aphrodite Macbain: Self control, clarity
Zen Arado: the prerequisites?
Gaya Ethaniel: Not sure exact words in Zen's version ...
Aphrodite Macbain: it helps when you're dealing with others
Eliza Madrigal: those seem ways not to 'get in the way' ?
Aphrodite Macbain: right
Eliza Madrigal: Okay... 5 minutes to go. I have to leave promptly today
Gaya Ethaniel: Those diffferent things point to something that's essential in loving kindness I guess.
Bruce Mowbray: stability, clarity, presence. . .
Eliza Madrigal: essential gaya? hmmm
Gaya Ethaniel: Equanimity or joy next week?
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Gaya Ethaniel: Please have a read through Eliza sometime :)
Aphrodite Macbain: COMPASSION The definition is: wanting others to be free from suffering. This compassion happens when one feels sorry with someone, and one feels an urge to help.
Aphrodite Macbain: Not sure if this a useful definition
Eliza Madrigal: sounds like a dinner menu before grocery sthopping...
Mickorod Renard: I wish I was better informed, I can only speak from my heart,,I wish I could let you read my heart and also you be able to fix my wrong bits
Aphrodite Macbain: useful
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Equanimity?
Eliza Madrigal: aph, yes I didn't care for that description....
Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe there's nothing wrong with your wrong bits Mick
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: I will Gaya
Eliza Madrigal: (read through)
Bruce Mowbray: equanimity is having neither preference nor prejudice, but I still have a preference for Equanimity next week.
Gaya Ethaniel: OK equanimity everyone is shouting for great!
Eliza Madrigal: hahah Okay
Mickorod Renard: I feel ashamed of my wrong bits, but they give me a challenge
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks everyone :) See you soon!
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Aphrodite Macbain: com si com sa
Mickorod Renard: bye Gaya
Wol Euler: bye gaya
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, think of them as a challenge and get to know them better!
Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you all... thank you
Agatha Macbeth: Take care gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: Please do join the voice session on Wednesday for a practice together as well.
Mickorod Renard: bye Eliza
Zen Arado: bye all thanks for discussion
Aphrodite Macbain: What are you practicing?
Gaya Ethaniel: bfn
Eliza Madrigal: bfn!