2010.09.08 - Prajna and Heart Sutra (part 2)

Xeno Octavia: hi folks
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dao :)
Dao Yheng: Hi all!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Xeno :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Calvino, Dao and Xeno :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cal :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hey, Agatha :)
Dao Yheng: nice to see some familiar faces (and wolves)
Agatha Macbeth: Hello hello
Eliza Madrigal: :) Dao
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Agatha :)
Agatha Macbeth smiles cheesily
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Xeno Octavia: r we silently meditating or did i crash again
Dao Yheng: Just had a quick look at the reports -- noticed some similar threads
Agatha Macbeth: You crashed again...
Xeno Octavia: thought so
Agatha Macbeth: ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: I am having issues loading the page at the moment...
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
Eliza Madrigal: and was waiting for Zen. :) Hi Zen
Dao Yheng: :) hi zen!
Eliza Madrigal: (grrr.. lines switching)
Agatha Macbeth: Hello dere Zen
Zen Arado: Hi All
Dao Yheng: back from retreat?
Zen Arado: yep
Agatha Macbeth: Retreat?
Eliza Madrigal: Welcome back Zen :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Was your hot pink shirt a hit?
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Dao Yheng: still having that fresh out of the laundry feeling?
Zen Arado: scared to try that
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Zen Arado: would have been thrown out :)
Agatha Macbeth: And thrown back in again...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Dao Yheng: without the shirt on your back, I'm sure :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Gilles, nice to have you back. I guess Summer is officially over?
Xeno Octavia: always summer here
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Dao Yheng: Nice Xeno
Gilles Kuhn: i was never really away eliza
Gilles Kuhn: and summer is over at fall equinox so no
Eliza Madrigal: Okay.. was able to read reports. I guess I will have to read big pine commentary...
Eliza Madrigal: hah, :) Well nice to see you anyway Gilles
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Dao Yheng: Zen, I wanted to ask how you wrote your last two?
Dao Yheng: at two different times?
Zen Arado: wrote them yesterday
Zen Arado: actually enjoyed the incentive to read and think about the commentary
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Xeno Octavia: u talkin bout stuf on wiki? yes!
Dao Yheng: me too
Zen Arado: no - the Red PIne commentary
Dao Yheng: Did you find the quote "Emptiness is not nothing, it's everything, everything at once." at the start or the end of your reporting task?
Xeno Octavia whispers: ???
Gaya Ethaniel: Some of us read this book - http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductD....asp?PID=14388
Zen Arado: don't remember
Zen Arado: found his description of the skandas interesting
Eliza Madrigal: yes, in that regard I was very interested in what you write of Avilokitesvara
Zen Arado: he describes the one usually calle volitions or mental formations etc as memory
Xeno Octavia: and the commentary ?
Zen Arado: that was the commentary
Gilles Kuhn: memory of what anterior volition or mental constructs?
Eliza Madrigal: Well, the reports are here Zeno: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
Calvino Rabeni: "Emptiness is everything at once" - including presumably the somewhat maligned thinking process
Eliza Madrigal: Xeno*
Gaya Ethaniel: Xeno, the book is commentaries on the Heart Sutra ... we are talking abou that.
Xeno Octavia: the wiki lol !!
Gaya Ethaniel: And yes, there are reports on the link.
Xeno Octavia: kool
Gaya Ethaniel: I found his translation quite interesting.
Calvino Rabeni: xano uraqt2 :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Usually we just go straight into 'Shariputra ...'
Gaya Ethaniel: He points out 'Here' is missing before 'Shariputra' and how that word is like a poke that a Zen teacher may give to a student ... :)
Gaya Ethaniel: And talks a bit about sound and mantra there too.
Dao Yheng: It has been a fun book to read -- the way each word expands out into all these different meanings and connotations and historical references
Gilles Kuhn: well just read some of the material in what are they different that benares sermonts fundamentals?
Gilles Kuhn: and more prufundly is that an affirmation of emptiness from a subjective perspective or from an ontological one? in others words is em^tiness only a goal to alliviate suffering existential or otherwise or a parmenidian like excuse for refusing knowledge and research?
Calvino Rabeni: Good question Gilles
Dao Yheng: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Xeno Octavia: its like basis of ecstatic being
Eliza Madrigal: more to bring about incisive knowing ...
Zen Arado: emptiness seems more the fact that every thing is interconnected
Calvino Rabeni: Would you prefer your phenomenology (a) transcendental or (b) psychological, or (c) ontological, etc.
Zen Arado: that things don't have any self existence
Calvino Rabeni: It's actually a practical question
Xeno Octavia: emptiness is empty of conditionings
Gilles Kuhn: in which way practical?
Calvino Rabeni: Is your emptiness ontological or psychological
Gilles Kuhn: and more i hear about it more it seems to me that all this concept of emptiness is not only fuzzy but empty in the habitual meaning of the word
Xeno Octavia: emptry of BIG words
Zen Arado: :)
Mitsu Ishii: Gilles; emptiness is not at all a refusal to do research. quite the opposite
Calvino Rabeni: It's practical because of what it implies about behavior for the person who takes it as a description of some reality and bases behavior on those assumptions
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dianket :)
Zen Arado: "Any given entity can only be defined in terms of other entities in time, space, or mind.
Gilles Kuhn: to say that emptiness is everything is as saying that being is everything but that dont say anything about anything
Zen Arado: have a seat Dianket
Mitsu Ishii: the notion of emptiness is fundamentally about research and careful investigation. it is essentially an invitation to endless research
Calvino Rabeni: So that sounds ontological, what Zen said
Gilles Kuhn: sure zen then let define them in their relative interaction not in general empty concepts
Calvino Rabeni: And that sounds psychological, what Mitsu said
Dao Yheng: But it's also true that the word emptiness has been applied on several different levels and in different domains -- both by the tradition and its practitioners -- there is some fuzziness there
Zen Arado: we are discussing the heart sutra Di
Xeno Octavia: emptyness is no thing
Mitsu Ishii: no, it's not psychological; it's ontological
Dianket Wobbit: hello all
Mitsu Ishii: there are many aspects to it
Dianket Wobbit: hi zen thanks
Calvino Rabeni: According to tradition it's taken as ontological
Mitsu Ishii: the fundamental idea is that one has to question every ontology.
Mitsu Ishii: so this is not to say that one cannot adopt provisional ontologies
Gilles Kuhn: ok mitsu that at least has some sense
Mitsu Ishii: but it rejects the idea that any ontology is final.
Xeno Octavia: ok then whats ontilogical --the word mean
Zen Arado: but there is a practical outcome surely
Mitsu Ishii: so for that reason, no matter how far one can come in one's ontological investigation, there can still be more. that's basically the idea.
Zen Arado: Buddhism isn't too concerned with ontological questions I think
Calvino Rabeni: Like the transcendental phenomenologists take their theory as an injunction to attempt to stand beyond assumptions, while the psychological phenomenologists take it as a guideline to more flexible perception and more fluid conceptualization
Gilles Kuhn: then as ontology is beyond in occidental philosophy since kant our capacity to know why still torture ourselves with it?
Mitsu Ishii: so there's definitely not a rejection of knowledge, rather a rejection of final knowledge.
Xeno Octavia: emptiness no end and no begin!?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, there's a lot of torturing going on in the name of ontology
Mitsu Ishii: from a psychological persepctive, yes, it can be used as a way of making our perceptions more flexible
Calvino Rabeni: RIght Mitsu
Zen Arado: we realize we aren't separate beings
Mitsu Ishii: we can adopt provisional perceptual categories, but never assume that this is "reality" or the final picture.
Eliza Madrigal: torture is often holding onto a 'piece' of knowledge and continually trying to fit everything to it...
Gilles Kuhn: and well calvino i have already make paté and sushi of phenomenology here a lot of time non bis in idem....
Calvino Rabeni: And from an ontological theory perspective, an invitation to duller possibilities
Mitsu Ishii: so the Heart Sutra says "form is emptiness, emptiness is form". this isn't some silly tautology but rather an attempt to capture the two major directions
Calvino Rabeni: heheh Giles
Gilles Kuhn: ontological theory is an oxymoron
Mitsu Ishii: so "form is emptiness" is basically saying: no ontology is final.
Calvino Rabeni: Except that one, if as one here said, emptines is ontological
Mitsu Ishii: "emptiness is form" is to say that even though no ontology is final, all the forms we perceive and interact with are nonetheless comprised of this non-final ontological reality
Calvino Rabeni: it's kind of like wrappign up all theories into one in order to then dispose of it
Mitsu Ishii: so you can't use "emptiness" as a way of simply retreating into some sort of naive nihilism.
Calvino Rabeni: Right
Gilles Kuhn: sorry mitsu bit non final ontological reality seems contradictory in terms to me
Mitsu Ishii: that's why they basically say both directons: neither nihilist nor naively realist.
Gilles Kuhn: bit =but*
Mitsu Ishii: yes, you're right :)
Calvino Rabeni: I have to interpret the "theory" as a dialectic maneuver
Mitsu Ishii: essentially they're saying that ontology really ought to be reframed as an impossible endeavor, except one can adopt in a weak sense provisional ontologies which aren't really ontological in the philosophical sense.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, like that
Calvino Rabeni: Provisional ontologies chosen and used for pragmatic reasons
Mitsu Ishii: they're trying to tread the line in between various forms of realism and nihilism, rejecting both
Gilles Kuhn: ok but then its only using hypothetic stance
Calvino Rabeni: Which seem then to function as mythologies
Xeno Octavia: if onto is empty isnt it logical ta drop it??
Gilles Kuhn: which is a very comon method
Mitsu Ishii: well this brings up the Diamond Sutra vs the Heart Sutra
Mitsu Ishii: so the Heart Sutra is mostly talking at this very high level, sort of a meta-level
Xeno Octavia: diamonds are a hearts best friend!
Mitsu Ishii: the Diamond Sutra is saying, let's look at specific ontological views, and deconstruct those
Zen Arado: is this kind of transcendental wisdom reducuble to philosophical categories?
Mitsu Ishii: for exmaple, self vs other, things vs other things, etc.
Mitsu Ishii: time, past/present/future
Mitsu Ishii: so they are saying it's worth investigating various ontological theories and seeing why they're inadequate in practical ways
Xeno Octavia: and 'now'
Calvino Rabeni: Emptiness as a stance is a story that says - hey we can deconstruct whatever the heck we want
Gilles Kuhn: you can take these concepts not as ontological views but as more or less working hypothesis
Gaya Ethaniel: Well such a text or say a philosophy book would always be a hypothesis to me Gilles. It's up to me to take up the invitation as Mitsu put it to find out for myself.
Mitsu Ishii: so they don't think you can just go "let's forget about ontology" because it still structures our perception and thought whether we are explicit about it or not.
Gaya Ethaniel: Buddhism isn't about dogma ...
Calvino Rabeni: But the whole emphasis on deconstruction - how about deconstructing THAT?
Eliza Madrigal: yes Zen, my feeling is that they are almost diff universes though of course one might be a metaphor to open a sense of the other...
Gilles Kuhn: deririda and other post modern found the same problem: result is utter absurdism and nihilism
Gilles Kuhn: derrida*
Mitsu Ishii: unlike the philosophers in the west, Buddhists are also concerned with how this plays out practically in everyday life
Xeno Octavia: thats good!!
Mitsu Ishii: so it's not just an abstract question. they want to look at what these questions mean for us in everyday terms
Calvino Rabeni: Zen, is that relatively transcendental or transcendental in an ontological sense?
Zen Arado: the Buddha was pretty unconcerned with philosipkical theorizing in my opinion
Calvino Rabeni: It's so easy to foret that, Mitsu
Gilles Kuhn: and that is at my opinion a typical buddhist fallacy mitsu as they mix two different things without justifying it but for their existantial wishes
Zen Arado: we're talking ontology
Mitsu Ishii: haha, yes, I can see how you might think that, but in fact I can make a very good argument for their position.
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: this is a common place... a razor's edge we often find ourselves no, which perhaps illustrates the point quite well... the perceived tension between form and emptiness
Eliza Madrigal: no=on
Calvino Rabeni: Well if that's true Zen, then Buddha might not have cared much for ontology
Xeno Octavia: i'd hope so
Eliza Madrigal: he might have cared as much as for anything... for anything as a pointer
Zen Arado: no I don't think he did
Eliza Madrigal: so there seems value in all exploration but not stopping there
Mitsu Ishii: for me, the philosophy has had extremely practical implications for my moment to moment life
Calvino Rabeni: A very reluctant proponent of any of his ideas, I gather
Zen Arado: refused to answer questions about it often
Gilles Kuhn: i personnaly dont care if a hindu prince didnt or did care for something i care only if he has said something relevant about it
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: and what makes it relevant...
Mitsu Ishii: yes, of course. Shakyamuni was just some guy.
Calvino Rabeni: SO don't ontological theories invite, or nearly demand, that one "stop there"?
Eliza Madrigal: what might make it relevant is direct application
Zen Arado: maybe such questions are unamswerable with logic
Mitsu Ishii: the real issues are things we have to look into now, it doesn't matter what some guy thought thousands of years ago, per se.
Xeno Octavia: have any of u read 'zen and the ART OF POSTMODERNISM'
Gilles Kuhn: well eliza i assume you can at a certain level see the relevance in intellectual argument
Calvino Rabeni: :) MItsu
Mitsu Ishii: here's a simple example
Mitsu Ishii: so Buddhists (and many philosophers) question the notion of "objects"
Gilles Kuhn: per se no but if the argument is correct it does mattter
Mitsu Ishii: also so do many researchers in perception, for example, in science
Mitsu Ishii: so one way to take this discussion of "objects" is in an intellectual sphere
Eliza Madrigal: I suppose I question correct in the context..
Mitsu Ishii: but another way is to think about how it structures our moment to moment perception
Gilles Kuhn: and who utter the argument is irrelevant if the argument is not link with others linked to him (a manner of putting the refusal of authoritative arguments)
Eliza Madrigal: ah, listening Mitsu
Calvino Rabeni: Sure Mitsu, so what's the hangup we have with objects, talking about them like we still think they exist ...
Calvino Rabeni: Because it's nearly unanimous that they don't :)
Mitsu Ishii: so one can say that the "idea" of objects isn't just a concept, but it is a neurological pattern, it's part of how our perceptual system structures our reality at a preconscious level
Calvino Rabeni: Right
Xeno Octavia: did Buddha 'hate' intelectualism
Gilles Kuhn is considering gently hitting calvino with a stone in a berkeleysian way....;-)
Mitsu Ishii: so, for example, I was on retreat, doing quite a bit of practice
Mitsu Ishii: we were doing both sitting meditation and other things
Gilles Kuhn imagine the others things ....;;-)
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Calvino Rabeni: yah, but if hit with that stone, my response wouldn't look very object like to you, Gilles :)
Mitsu Ishii: then I walked outside after a long practice session and looked around. we were in a natural setting with trees and so on
Mitsu Ishii: and I was quite shocked
Gilles Kuhn: my point calvino my point.....
Calvino Rabeni: Understand Mitsu, I think
Mitsu Ishii: because suddenly I was vividly aware that all the "things" around me were intensely apparent in a totally different way from usual
Gaya Ethaniel give a big shove ... Gilles behave!
Gaya Ethaniel: :P
Gilles Kuhn: trance state induce that usually.....
Mitsu Ishii: when I saw the trees, for example, I suddenly was extremely conscious of every leaf, every negative space between the leaves, all the incredible variety of shapes and light patterns
Calvino Rabeni: On my last meditation ride, all the things of the urban environment appeared to be starting to detach from one another and float away
Gilles Kuhn: but too deep intelectual thinking i know...
Mitsu Ishii: I realized
Mitsu Ishii: that
Mitsu Ishii: normally, I don't really SEE the trees or the grass or stuff around me very directly
Dao Yheng: we're not in a trance state now?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, we are
Gilles Kuhn: i am not
Mitsu Ishii: normally, I'm taking a blob of intense sensory input and I just put a label on it "TREE" or "BUSH" or "FENCE" or "ROAD"
Agatha Macbeth: I agree cal :)
Mitsu Ishii: and that label sort of obscures the actual thing I am seeing
Calvino Rabeni: @mitsu, or more likely "landscape" :)
Mitsu Ishii: so the world turns into a bunch of objects. this is clearly a neurological phenomenon
Calvino Rabeni: And it might not be a word, but a feeling
Eliza Madrigal: Xeno, am sure not (re hating intellectualizing), which doesn't mean he would have wanted to be stuck there, ie not seeing through the pointers and labels...
Calvino Rabeni: a felt sense of "what exists"
Mitsu Ishii: but the point of practice is to loosen up our categories and object-ification
Zen Arado: and we use the labels to construct arguments
Gilles Kuhn: mitsu could you point a single non neurological phenomenon?
Mitsu Ishii: well I mean, it could also be, say, muscular or physiological or due to the air or color of the light and so on.
Mitsu Ishii: in this case it's likely primarily neurological.
Mitsu Ishii: anyway, the point I am making is that the practices here are not merely meant to help us understand some concept or idea
Gilles Kuhn: right but as we all agree all phenomenon are neurological constructs
Zen Arado: they are co creations surely
Mitsu Ishii: they are meant to be practical ways of literally reshaping the way we pattern our world
Mitsu Ishii: at a preconscious level
Eliza Madrigal: not that I should speak for that particular person, hah... just a sense of what the sutra texts seem to convey (@ Xeno)
Gilles Kuhn: and so can be modified by neurological practice like drugs trance meditation or rational thinking and observation
Zen Arado: or conditioning
Mitsu Ishii: which has the salutary effect of making us able to break our narrow categories and reshape them more flexibly in response to the world
Gilles Kuhn: too
Mitsu Ishii: One person asked Shunryu Suzuki to summarize Zen in one sentence
Mitsu Ishii: he said, "Everything changes"
Calvino Rabeni: Ah, well Giles, can I modify my bank account in that way, say, in under a minute, so that it stays that way and becomes part of the consensus trance?
Gilles Kuhn: good point calvino no you cant but you can strongly believe it
Xeno Octavia: i think Dharma is Truth and buddhism a western intellectualization
Mitsu Ishii: the idea here is that we are trapped by ideas
Mitsu Ishii: concepts, objects, ontologies
Zen Arado: yes
Mitsu Ishii: so we want to relax our categories to some degree
Mitsu Ishii: not to "get rid of them"
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but what then?
Mitsu Ishii: but simply to be more flexible with them
Zen Arado: they are useful but we put too much weight on them
Gilles Kuhn: and indeed calvino thats what intersubjectivity and rationnality is about limitation of your conceptualisation of the external world in term of external efficiency
Mitsu Ishii: to adapt to change, to be able to reframe our world. sort of like yoga makes our bodies more flexible
Calvino Rabeni: What I'm wondering is, why a discussion of these ideas primarily fixates on the binding properties of concepts?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes Mitzu
Eliza Madrigal: its a flip, a no distinction between inner/outer
Mitsu Ishii: not only concepts but perception, even patterns in our bodies and in the world, society, and so forth
Dao Yheng: I'm not sure that's a requirement, Cal, but maybe in the west it is :)
Eliza Madrigal: Not to be a spoil sport, but we may want to discuss upcoming discussions, with Cal and others here...
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe that comes first, practically, and we can forget about worrying about the concepts and their binding properties
Gaya Ethaniel: Using logic and human intelligence is valued within the Buddhist tradition. It's just that it is very much concerned with how it can be applicable to everyday life. Often intellectual arguments can just end there ...
Mitsu Ishii: I personally think it's all interrelated
Gaya Ethaniel: Valued ... well regarded as essential I'd say.
Eliza Madrigal waves to Mick at the bar
Mitsu Ishii: you can focus on practice, or philosophy, or poetry, or whatever...
Mitsu Ishii: they're all interrelated to me
Mickorod Renard: waves back
Calvino Rabeni: Cream puff enlightenment
Calvino Rabeni: OR cafe latte
Gilles Kuhn: homo sum nihil homine a me alienum puto indeed mitsu
Xeno Octavia: is there a diff tween mental and intellectual
Gilles Kuhn: (i am a man nothing human is foreign to me)
Mitsu Ishii: intellectual investigations in Buddhism can become practice too, as Stim likes to say. but for most people they have to meditate too, or perhaps mostly
Mitsu Ishii: I like philosophy because I find it helps me situate my practice experiences in a way that fits with my rational faculty.
Gilles Kuhn: thsi notion of practice is deeply exotic not to say annoying to me because it imply that there is a goal
Calvino Rabeni: ** Mitsu
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mitsu Ishii: well that's a whole other topic Gilles ... in fact we're talking about it as though there is a goal but there isn't a goal
Calvino Rabeni: Well Giles if you practice, you can drop the annoyance - just kidding, sorry
Eliza Madrigal: )
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Xeno Octavia: there is no goal Gilles --try dance meditaion --its moving!!
Mitsu Ishii: we could spend a whole series of sessions talking about goal vs no goal
Eliza Madrigal: I will have to go in just a moment... but if the session continues I'll be happy to post the log sent to me
Calvino Rabeni: OR intention - now there's a juicy subject
Gaya Ethaniel: When I practise a piano let's say, I do it for enjoyment ... no goals. It doesn't have to come with goals ...
Eliza Madrigal: and yet there is satisfaction gaya...
Mitsu Ishii: yes, if there is a "goal" one might just say it's to live life in a satisfying way
Eliza Madrigal: no goals and yet satisfaction. I find that amazing
Xeno Octavia: music and art meditation too
Gilles Kuhn: i do practoce fencing and i have a lot of practice in liquors and wine and i know perfectly the goals in those but i will not refer to an intellectual open reflexion as practice as it is meant to find news things
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Calvino Rabeni: Only an economist would say, the goal of playing the piano is to maximize enjoyment
Mitsu Ishii: yes, but finding new things is valuable, isn't it?
Mickorod Renard: satisfaction will do me
Gilles Kuhn: depend
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mitsu Ishii: I mean, feeling pain could be interesting too
Calvino Rabeni: Finding new things - not a practice and not a goal?
Mitsu Ishii: so it can't be narrowed down really
Gilles Kuhn: to find you are mortals is a bad news lot of us would have prefered not to have for example
Mitsu Ishii: it's not about finding "positive" things really
Xeno Octavia whispers: if emptyness beginless and endless how goalify it??
Mitsu Ishii: it's just about being more fully who we are exploring that
Calvino Rabeni: No, nothing is positive or not positive
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks everyone :) Interesting session and hope we continue...
Gilles Kuhn: if emptiness is nothing then how to speak about it and what is its interest
Calvino Rabeni: intrinsically, anyway
Mickorod Renard: bye Eliza
Mitsu Ishii: if we are stuck thinking the earth is flat and the world is 6000 years old
Dao Yheng: I think 'goals' are what we have when we aren't enjoying it yet :)
Mitsu Ishii: that's just kind of a limited perspective and isn't as fun
Dao Yheng: bye eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, so glad to stay for that line Dao ;-)
Mitsu Ishii: bye eliza
Eliza Madrigal: hhaha, Bye everyone
Zen Arado: bye Eliza
Calvino Rabeni: The meanings of emptiness are Legion
Gaya Ethaniel: If you're all coming next week, I'd be happy to hear a continuation of this discussion :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Eliza :)
Xeno Octavia: bye
Eliza Madrigal is Offline
Mitsu Ishii: Gilles always makes these sessions exciting
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Liz, bye evreybody
Calvino Rabeni: TC Eliza :)
Mitsu Ishii: haha
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gilles Kuhn: agreed mitsu knowledge is about fun as wine is as say solomon in the ecclesiast (well legend attribute it to this mythical figure)
Mitsu Ishii: exactly!
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mitsu Ishii: on that note of agreement perhaps we can talk further about goals and goallessness and so forth next week?
Mickorod Renard: understanding something can be either end of the scale but it is satisfying to comprehend
Gaya Ethaniel: ok, thanks everyone :)
Gilles Kuhn: and thanks for the compliment mitsu i like to be an exciting person ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: Or intentions / intentionality, to personalize it a bit?
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mitsu Ishii: sure
Zen Arado: or attaining and non-attainment?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Calvino, sounds good.
Mitsu Ishii: all of those
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Zen that too!
Mitsu Ishii: okay, so we have a topic
Zen Arado: same thing
Mitsu Ishii: take care everyone
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night :)
Zen Arado: bye Mits
Calvino Rabeni: Houston, We Have A Topic
Gilles Kuhn: bye mitsu
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Mitsu Ishii: bye all
Mitsu Ishii is Offline
Mickorod Renard: and you Mitsu
Zen Arado: we have a problem :)
Dao Yheng: :) bye all!
Calvino Rabeni: TC Mitsu
Gaya Ethaniel: Dao - are you posting the log?
Dao Yheng: sure, np
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm happy to do it if not.
Gaya Ethaniel: Alright, thanks!
Dao Yheng: oh, unless you're staying :)
Gaya Ethaniel is Offline
Calvino Rabeni: You know, if it weren't for Lee Harvey Oswald, we would be saying "Boston, We have a Problem"