2010.08.12 - Virya Paramita

Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Dao, Eliza, Heloise, Wol :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya, Heloise, Dao, Wol :)
Dao Yheng: Hi Gaya, all!
Gaya Ethaniel: I like your new outfit Wol :)
Dao Yheng: Lovely to see you again (big smile pasted on face!)
Wol Euler: ty :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Very romantic :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes its wonderful
Wol Euler: from a store I'd never visited before
Wol Euler: Nomine
Agatha Macbeth: Evening all :)
Eliza Madrigal: Yay :)) @ Dao, it is nice to *see* you too
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Agatha :)
Gaya Ethaniel: ah :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Agatha :)
Agatha Macbeth: I forgot about this last week:(
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Gaya, everything ok?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes we missed you.
Dao Yheng: Hi Agatha
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes thanks, have you finished building your plot now?
Agatha Macbeth: SL seems to be getting busier! :p
Agatha Macbeth: Yep
Agatha Macbeth: All sorted
Dao Yheng: are we ladies only today?
Eliza Madrigal: Oh... building Agatha? great, will have to wander around
Agatha Macbeth: I prefer it that way Dao :))
Agatha Macbeth: Ok Liz
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Dao Yheng: brb, fixing a tiny work emergency
Gaya Ethaniel: kk
Agatha Macbeth: /me hates work emergencies
Gaya Ethaniel: /me nods.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: The reports, I thought, were quite nice...
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: though it is funny that the paramitas DO seem one thing the more one works with them
Gaya Ethaniel: Different expressions perhaps ...
Eliza Madrigal: energy-toward-good as patience as generosity, etc
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Eliza Madrigal: And I liked the way Zen came into patience/energy as a expressions of wu wei
Dao Yheng: starting with a quote about the dangers of effort :)
Eliza Madrigal: It reminded me of our koan weeks ago concerning resting in the openness of the sky
Zen Arado: Hi all
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mitsu, Zen :)
Mitsu Ishii: hi sorry, had to download SL
Heloise Toussaint: Hi
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mitsu :)
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Zen :)
Agatha Macbeth: And Mitsu
Dao Yheng: Hi guys!
Agatha Macbeth: The female bastion is breached...
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: /me giggles
Wol Euler: o.O
Eliza Madrigal: hahahh
Eliza Madrigal: o.O <-- Wol gazing
Wol Euler: /me smiles.
Dao Yheng: ha!
Agatha Macbeth: /me gazes at Wol
Wol Euler: /me blushes
Zen Arado: 'Once more into the breach.....
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Dear friends...
Wol Euler: it won't work here though, I have nothing to report :) Didn't do my homework
Gaya Ethaniel: Just making a nc for Mitsu and Zen ...
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Zen Arado: ty Gaya
Eliza Madrigal: "everything is preparation"
Agatha Macbeth: We didn't say anything yet!
Xeno Octavia: hi folks
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Xeno
Gaya Ethaniel: That's alright Wol, you can still share your thoughts on the topic :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Xeno :)
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Xeno
Gaya Ethaniel: I will IM Xeno with intro ...
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Gaya
Eliza Madrigal: Zen, before you arrived we mentioned your report...
Agatha Macbeth: Good job her second name's not Phobia
Wol Euler: /me chortles
Zen Arado: thanks
Eliza Madrigal: Would you like to say a bit more about effort?
Zen Arado: lot of effort went into that :)
Eliza Madrigal: /me giggles
Wol Euler: snap
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Zen Arado: still struggling with idea
Zen Arado: in an effortless way of course
Gaya Ethaniel: /me slaps Agath's hands for being rude to the new visitor.
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) of course
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Agatha Macbeth: I thought Xeno had been here before?
Zen Arado: maybe need an example from life?
Eliza Madrigal: I thought your report and dao blended so nicely together... the relaxing of effort and the 'watercourse way'
Xeno Octavia: is philia not phobia!!
Eliza Madrigal: *dao's
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I'd like to hear a bit more about 'mud' from Dao ...
Gaya Ethaniel: When she's back.
Dao Yheng: the mud was my favorite part
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Xeno Octavia: she been --even went t a early morn in Japenese : )
Dao Yheng: It was an interesting sitting session for me, just the way the image sort of kept revealing bits of this and that
Dao Yheng: And I also really enjoyed Zen's angle on the whole thing
Gaya Ethaniel: I loved the image but can you say a bit more about that sitting and virya?
Gaya Ethaniel: Or ... was that about patience?
Zen Arado: what number is your report Dao?
Dao Yheng: The mud part in a way was about virya
Zen Arado: ok I got it
Dao Yheng: the part where it seemed possible to find some kind of resource, admist all the ups and downs (ebbs and flows)
Gaya Ethaniel: The links are all on the frontpage.
Dao Yheng: BTW, I sort of decided not to look at Zen's before writing mine, so thought it was neat the way they matched up a bit :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I liked the rootedness of mud ... if that's what you meant?
Dao Yheng: yup, something like that
Gaya Ethaniel: ah :)
Dao Yheng: the root in the "gaps" as it were
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes like a tree ...
Eliza Madrigal: Today I was working on something and wrote in the margin, that when someone has a direct connection with a vision, it is a kind of natural driving force...
Dao Yheng: was thinking about how it was really the crevasses and small gaps in the silt that holds the water
Zen Arado: it seems so hard not to reinforce a sense of self in any efforts
Dao Yheng: yes, I was thinking about that too --
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ... a very nice image Dao.
Eliza Madrigal: oh... like unintentional, or hidden places...
Wol Euler: /me excuses herself quietly. I shall have to slip away, I'm really tired tonight.
Zen Arado: we just exercise our talents really but we get so puffed up about things
Wol Euler: goodnight all, take care.
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Wol :)
Eliza Madrigal: Nite Wol :) Sweet dreams
Zen Arado: bye Wol
Dao Yheng: night!
Wol Euler: ty
Agatha Macbeth: Night Wol, schlaf gut
Dao Yheng: the bodhisattva vow is sort of this impossible undertaking, and from some angles, a non-sensical one
Mitsu Ishii: Krishnamurti once remarked, near the end of his life: "Remain completely alert, and make no effort."
Eliza Madrigal: yes! the scope is infinite
Gaya Ethaniel: I think joyous effort points to the selfless part?
Zen Arado: maybe it is after an effort that we add self congratulation?
Gaya Ethaniel: Don't we forget about 'self' in the experience of joy?
Eliza Madrigal: then there is a kind of ownership of result, you mean Zen?
Zen Arado: if we can just stay in Now
Zen Arado: we get puffed up about achievements
Gaya Ethaniel: I wonder ... is it wrong to give oneself a pat in the back as an encouragement?
Dao Yheng: (or even stuff we can't really take any credit for!)
Gaya Ethaniel: It doesn't have to be problematic ...
Agatha Macbeth: Probably not Gaya :)
Dao Yheng: Memories of good experiences are just as dangerous as ones of bad, though
Mitsu Ishii: Suzuki once said that pride in one's practice becomes a thick wall
Mitsu Ishii: a barrier that traps you in essence
Zen Arado: guess we need encouragement too
Eliza Madrigal: I appreciated Gaya's mention of Stim's 'follow the energy' advice...
Eliza Madrigal: especially having come from a retreat in which we did a kind of practice like that in the forest...
Dao Yheng: yes, encouragement doesn't necessarily require pride
Dao Yheng: yes?
Eliza Madrigal: of just letting the forest speak... going toward (but not to!) what caught our attention...
Zen Arado: self is so iingenious at creeping in
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: and if something else then came up on the way to one thing, to allow ourselves to follow that...
Xeno Octavia: by self u mean ego
Gaya Ethaniel: Guided by 'nature' not 'self' I guess ...
Eliza Madrigal: yes...
Xeno Octavia: ?
Zen Arado: yes Xeno
Eliza Madrigal: it was 'being seen' practice
Eliza Madrigal: rather than seeing
Eliza Madrigal: and it was restful... liberating
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mitsu Ishii: Ordinary effort, like trying to achieve enlightenment, certainly is self-defeating. But there's something else, a kind of thoroughness, which seems necessary
Mitsu Ishii: I think I might replace "effort" with "thoroughness"
Mitsu Ishii: if I were coming up with my own list
Dao Yheng: that's an interesting angle
Dao Yheng: virya is supposedly one of the more difficult words to translate
Eliza Madrigal: ah, like completeness?
Zen Arado: agree Mitsu
Agatha Macbeth: /me looks up Virya
Zen Arado: whole heartedness
Mitsu Ishii: not exactly completeness, but more investigating thoroughly
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mitsu Ishii: not stopping at the surface
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ... as long as it's not obssessive thoroughness as in tick box 1, 2, 3 >.<
Zen Arado: burning ourselves up completely in what we do
Mitsu Ishii: being more thoroughly present, more thoroughly in a non-action THIS, suchness
Mitsu Ishii: without effort
Gaya Ethaniel: Thoroughness with flexibility ...
Xeno Octavia: effortlessness
Mitsu Ishii: right, thoroughness without effort somehow
Agatha Macbeth: strenuous and sustained effort to overcome unskillful ways
Dao Yheng: I think effort or action has a different meaning at different levels
Agatha Macbeth: It says here
Mitsu Ishii: I think that's kind of how I interpreted Krishnamurti's remark
Eliza Madrigal: yes Dao?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ...
Dao Yheng: the things we usually associate with effort often have to do with the self's efforts, but there is action / energy that is very effective, that has it's source elsewhere
Mitsu Ishii: I would call it more like non-action/energy
Mitsu Ishii: big flow
Zen Arado: was reading that it isn't goal-oriented
Gaya Ethaniel: Nice to ride that when it happens :)
Zen Arado: because uses the present as a means only
Gaya Ethaniel: Often though it takes a bit of time to get settled no?
Gaya Ethaniel: Like finding a posture, relaxing ... making efforts to stay with it.
Zen Arado: effort should be spontaneously in the present
Dao Yheng: it feels like that "big flow" source is always available, so long we're not always tied up in the small self's ideas of what it might be like if....
Zen Arado: like surfing a wave ?
Dao Yheng: some would say literally like surfing a wave, I think!
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Xeno Octavia: do we distinguish 'present' from 'now'?
Dao Yheng: (good question Xeno! started to wonder about that myself)
Mitsu Ishii: in general the way it feels to me isn't that I have to make an effort to stay with things
Mitsu Ishii: but more that I have to remind myself to relax in a present way
Gaya Ethaniel: I mean looking back at your practice ... you never actually made efforts?
Mitsu Ishii: to lift the veil and just relax outward into presence as it is
Xeno Octavia: for me now is one-pointed but present a great range as much as past or future
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm not sure if we can sit for hours right from the beginning.
Mitsu Ishii: to the extent I make an effort it is almost always counterproductive. I make a very, very slight effort to notice my effort and relax it
Mitsu Ishii: through constantly becoming less and less and less, things flow
Gaya Ethaniel: By making wrong efforts, I learnt a lot of things ...
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes what you meant by 'counter productive' Mitsu.
Zen Arado: it's like we allow meditation to do us
Gaya Ethaniel: It's part of the learning experience.
Mitsu Ishii: without any effort, I can sit for hours or whatever. When I began I could barely sit for ten minutes
Mitsu Ishii: but the difference between then and now is I make less effort now :)
Xeno Octavia: /?
Gaya Ethaniel: I see what you mean Mitsu :)
Xeno Octavia: shudnt medit do us??
Gaya Ethaniel: ?
Zen Arado: yes that's what I mean Xeno
Eliza Madrigal: I used to practice 'longer' sittings but now everything and sitting, is practice..
Mitsu Ishii: to me it feels like, when we are making efforts, it's like clenching up all your muscles
Zen Arado: instead of us making a mighty effort
Xeno Octavia: ah good --wanted make sure ;)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mitsu Ishii: so relaxing that, you have much more energy
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes tension in body is so informative.
Mitsu Ishii: and ironically can do all sorts of things that seemed impossible before, like sit for arbitrarily long periods or whatever
Mitsu Ishii: except for the legs falling asleep
Xeno Octavia: i look at music groups the best ones are played by the music
Zen Arado: but not so easy to keep sense of an 'I' out of efforts I find
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Zen Arado: takes practice I guess
Eliza Madrigal: integration also... not keeping 'effort' or 'energy' to yourself...
Gaya Ethaniel: ?
Dao Yheng: and for me, also a willingness to let the "I" be there too?
Eliza Madrigal: no 'i' in team... hahah
Zen Arado: what about Olympic athletes?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ... otherwise it's 'I' fighting to keep 'I' out ...
Zen Arado: gettting gold medals
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes a team!
Mitsu Ishii: Yes, even with Olympic atheletes
Mitsu Ishii: the great athletes are relaxed, they often report
Gaya Ethaniel: They enjoy training too ... know when to push when not to.
Zen Arado: always find that hard to understand
Gaya Ethaniel: I get itchy sometimes if I don't keep up with certain activities I like.
Mitsu Ishii: training or exertion doesn't necessarily mean effort
Gaya Ethaniel: Surely you get that Zen with painting?
Agatha Macbeth: /me scratches Gaya
Eliza Madrigal: hahaha
Gaya Ethaniel: /me giggles.
Mitsu Ishii: you can do anything, everything without making an effort, including climbing a mountain or whatever.
Zen Arado: I try not to think of painting for selling
Zen Arado: it ruins it for me
Zen Arado: but know others who have to make a living from it
Gaya Ethaniel: There, effortless effort :)
Eliza Madrigal: well the idea you might share it may keep you sharp too ...
Gaya Ethaniel: Well, you give away too cheaply Zen!
Gaya Ethaniel: Zen sent me a painting ... very kind of him.
Zen Arado: selling is an afterthought for me but I am licky I don't need to do it for a living
Eliza Madrigal: :) sweet
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Zen Arado: lucky*
Zen Arado: it makes you less creative too I think Eliza
Xeno Octavia: yes- to b artist in ameeryca is a putdown
Zen Arado: you would paint what you think people will buy
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm sure professional painter would do some for fun and some for money.
Eliza Madrigal: not sure... think both can exist at the same time...
Eliza Madrigal: which can create a certain energy :) Spark of fear...
Zen Arado: as they become successful they can be more creative I guess
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes they could overlap ...
Zen Arado: fear....maybe
Eliza Madrigal: staying the edge :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Well one hopes so :)
Zen Arado: good point Eliza
Xeno Octavia: if do real art is a medit - not there
Zen Arado: prefer to do without fear though :)
Gaya Ethaniel: What's 'medit'?
Agatha Macbeth: Meditation?
Eliza Madrigal: well maybe fear can be part of what gets fed to the fire...
Xeno Octavia: medit-ation for short speller
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: A great idea Eliza :) Feed fear into the fire too ...
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ty Xeno :)
Xeno Octavia: real art no thought just effortless action
Zen Arado: fear os a motivator though too
Zen Arado: would make me less lazy
Xeno Octavia: ??? fear motivates??
Eliza Madrigal: sure
Gaya Ethaniel: I see effort as in training most of the time.
Gaya Ethaniel: Whether a martial art ... painting etc.
Xeno Octavia: yes effort til drop minds interference
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes there is that point, where it just happens.
Zen Arado: Cal was saying something along those lines to me earlier
Gaya Ethaniel: But up to then, having fun training ...
Xeno Octavia: zen an archery : )
Gaya Ethaniel: ?
Mitsu Ishii: even when I did martial arts, I had the best results when I just practiced without a notion of a goal or effort, even if it was very strenuous
Xeno Octavia: yes
Gaya Ethaniel: But you were 'hooked' to doing the taining no Mitsu?
Zen Arado: " moving always exactly appropriately and without elaborating cliniging, modifying, resisting what happens"
Xeno Octavia: effort and intention is cheating
Eliza Madrigal: I seem to quote Eos a lot lately... but here is a Bruce Lee quote from Eos "In a stressful situation you don't rise to the level of potential but fall to the level of practice"
Gaya Ethaniel: It was where you found your natural energy?
Eliza Madrigal: going over that it is true at one level, but at another level...
Eliza Madrigal: stress can push you to rise...
Eliza Madrigal: to something you didn't know was there at all
Mitsu Ishii: I didn't really train with the idea of achievement
Mitsu Ishii: I just went to class.
Gaya Ethaniel: You wanted to though ...
Mitsu Ishii: as muchg as possible, I tried to train without a notion of attainment
Gaya Ethaniel: Regardless the absence of goals etc.
Zen Arado: must watch 'Karate Kid' soon :)
Eliza Madrigal: I heard it was great ;-)
Mitsu Ishii: motive or desire doesn't have to be effortful.
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes wax on wax off ... not sure if that's in the new film.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mitsu Ishii: for example you can be hungry and then desire to eat food
Mitsu Ishii: but it doesn't have to be done as an action
Gaya Ethaniel: Indeed
Eliza Madrigal: (btw sorry to miss the Inception talk Gaya... was traveling =P~)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Zen Arado: missed it to
Dao Yheng: we'll compare notes sometime -- I understand the forest retreatants had a movie night?
Zen Arado: too
Gaya Ethaniel: It's ok :)
Eliza Madrigal: Yes :)
Eliza Madrigal: We had to... after two days of people making references to it
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Zen Arado: one of the movies I actually gotr to see before discussion too :(
Gaya Ethaniel: I will post the log soon on a new wiki :)
Dao Yheng: BTW, what for next week?
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, great. Thanks
Eliza Madrigal: Hm, good question
Gaya Ethaniel: We will mix in some noir.
Gaya Ethaniel: So The Third Man next month :)
Dao Yheng: the next two might be a little difficult to discuss (concentration / meditation and wisdom)
Mitsu Ishii: dhyana?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ...
Mitsu Ishii: samadhi
Mitsu Ishii: the homework can just be: sitting!
Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... discussions could become too theoretic.
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes we could commit to some short daily sittings?
Xeno Octavia: asavs or paras
Gaya Ethaniel: ?
Mitsu Ishii: It's not possible to really talk about dhyana, but we can talk about our sitting practice.
Dao Yheng: paramitas
Mitsu Ishii: what it is like, concretely
Zen Arado: in SL you mean Gaya?
Eliza Madrigal: yes, but that said I'd love to hear others' thoughts on what 'samadhi' means ...
Xeno Octavia: avatars -SL paratars -FL
Gaya Ethaniel: I don't understand Xeno speak >,<
Mitsu Ishii: sure, we could try to discuss that
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
Eliza Madrigal: and do sittings :)
Gaya Ethaniel: How about min a few mintues each day?
Gaya Ethaniel: Each day being the important part ...
Mitsu Ishii: okay, a few minutes per day, at least.
Zen Arado: but we all do already in RL no?
Mitsu Ishii: or longer if it feels appropriate
Eliza Madrigal: some yes Zen, prob not all
Gaya Ethaniel: Not everyone here may do Zen :)
Xeno Octavia: here Gaya!
Zen Arado: ah ok
Eliza Madrigal: and good to pay attention anyway
Dao Yheng: yes!
Gaya Ethaniel: ty Xeno
Xeno Octavia: where does Rigpa fit in ??
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, another favorite word...
Agatha Macbeth: Yes i wondered that ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: words words words...
Dao Yheng: maybe you'll explain it to us next week, Xeno?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Xeno Octavia: words get in way --but can incidentally lead places too
Gaya Ethaniel: Agatha, Xeno - if you want to do the homework and reports let me know.
Eliza Madrigal: /me is a little off beat today I think, but I love you guys and am happy to be back
Gaya Ethaniel: I will create an account on the wiki for you.
Eliza Madrigal: indeed Xeno
Gaya Ethaniel: Nice to have you back to Eliza.
Xeno Octavia: so this a weekly meet ? : )
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes
Eliza Madrigal: *^.^* Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mitsu Ishii: rigpa is I think a bit beyond ordinary samadhi
Dao Yheng: notes on the wiki: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
Xeno Octavia: yes Rigpa is post Samadhi
Eliza Madrigal: third stoplight down and take a right?
Xeno Octavia: or better para to samadhi
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Eliza Madrigal: sorry... hehe. I hear you :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I look forward to getting lost next week then :)
Eliza Madrigal: /me has been getting lost a lot lately
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks everyone.
Dao Yheng: thanks all!
Heloise Toussaint: Thanks!
Zen Arado: thanks everyone
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks everybody! :)
Mitsu Ishii: good to see you
Dao Yheng: have a good evening (or day!)
Agatha Macbeth: /me waves
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mitsu Ishii: bye everyone
Agatha Macbeth: Or night...
Zen Arado: bye all