2010.08.05 - Kshanti Paramita II [Patience]

Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Dao :)
Dao Yheng: hi gaya!
Dao Yheng: nice to be back in our old digs
Gaya Ethaniel: :D
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Tim :)
Gaya Ethaniel: How are you Dao?
Dao Yheng: Hi Timbo!
Timbo Quan: Hello Gaya Hi Dao
Timbo Quan: Didn't realise this place is up in the air ....
Gaya Ethaniel: mhm it is :)
Timbo Quan: interesting
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Dao Yheng: is it? raised on a platform?
Gaya Ethaniel: No like a skybox, it's floating in the air.
Timbo Quan: rather fairly high up - never looked over the edge before
Gaya Ethaniel: 250m high ... it says.
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello maria24 :)
Dao Yheng: oh, funny! Is that why you can see the sea underneath when everything is first rendering?
Timbo Quan: yes
Gaya Ethaniel: I don't see the sea ... not sure.
Gaya Ethaniel points to her new T-shirt.
Dao Yheng: I was going to ask...
Gaya Ethaniel: ?
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello again maria24 :)
maria24 Murfin: hi gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: Have you been here before maria?
maria24 Murfin: yes is there a mtg here at 2pm slt
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, it will start shortly. The meeting is open for anyone to join. For more information, please see http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello MItsu :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Please feel free to take a seat if you'd like maria.
Timbo Quan: hello Mitsu
Mitsu Ishii: hello
Dao Yheng: thanks!
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Dao Yheng: So patience has been good to you, Gaya?
Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... thinks.
Gaya Ethaniel: Patience is good ... :)
Gaya Ethaniel: You mean if I have been patient?
Dao Yheng: If you've enjoyed working with patience as homework
Gaya Ethaniel: ah :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes it is a good topic for me.
Gaya Ethaniel: How about you?
Dao Yheng: to be honest, I find that I tend to turn it into something else
Gaya Ethaniel: ?
Dao Yheng: acceptance, compassion, etc
Gaya Ethaniel: Well patience requires all those qualities I think ...
Dao Yheng: it's been a little difficult to stay with patience as such
Gaya Ethaniel: If patience is approached from anger ... compassion is needed.
Gaya Ethaniel: To be patient with someone, sometimes one needs to accept and also trust ...
Gaya Ethaniel: It's a complex topic I think.
Dao Yheng: yes, I think so too
Mitsu Ishii: Zen's interpretation of patience seemed to focus on time, i.e., waiting
Dao Yheng: there's the issue of what one is being patient with, too...
Dao Yheng: oh, yes, that was an illuminating aspect of his report, I thought
Mitsu Ishii: but the paramita has more to do with acceptance of things like people being angry or attacking you etc.
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Eliza also associated patience with time.
Mitsu Ishii: i.e., such as the Tibetans being patient with the Chinese
Dao Yheng: You don't think attitudes about time are related?
Dao Yheng: to me, that sense of "this needs to be corrected" definitely plays out in time
Mitsu Ishii: yes, I think time is related
Mitsu Ishii: but it isn't just patience as in waiting for something to happen in the future
Dao Yheng: oh I see what you mean
Mitsu Ishii: the word "patience" might not be quite the right translation
Gaya Ethaniel: I saw a Dalai Lama's quote re: patience, being able to stand firm under fear.
Gaya Ethaniel: So impatience -> sense of self under threat?
Dao Yheng: a sense of confidence too, then
Gaya Ethaniel: How do you see this?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes confidence and trust ...
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
Dao Yheng: Hi Zen, good to see you again!
Gaya Ethaniel: I will make a notecard of what we've said Zen.
Timbo Quan: hello Zen
Mitsu Ishii: hi Zen
Zen Arado: Hi Gaya, Mitsu, Timbo, Dao
maria24 Murfin: sorry i crashed
Zen Arado: amria
Gaya Ethaniel: wb maria
maria24 Murfin: ty
Zen Arado: Maria sorry
maria24 Murfin: hi zen
Zen Arado: ty Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
maria24 Murfin: ty gaya for the nc
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mitsu Ishii: confidence and trust that there is something already supportive about the situation even in the worst circumstances
Gaya Ethaniel: Then natural patience ...
Dao Yheng: yes -- patience in the sense that things can be quite dire and may never be "fixed"
Zen Arado: suggests being contented with the way things are
Gaya Ethaniel: This is why I thought wisdom is also related to patience.
Zen Arado: then you don't need patience
maria24 Murfin: would you say patience is natural or is it something thatis learned
Zen Arado: children don't have much patience :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I thought about that :) Crouching in the bush ... ^^;;;
Dao Yheng: maybe patience is the way wisdom is expressed?
Mitsu Ishii: I think patience is not quite exactly the same as being contented with the way things are
Mitsu Ishii: for example, let's say the way things are includes someone causing great suffering to others
Mitsu Ishii: the point of the paramita is not that we sit back and don't think there's anything wrong, that there's nothing that deserves to be corrected or changed
Mitsu Ishii: but that we accept that things are the way they are, even if we need to move to correct them
Zen Arado: but, sometimes, like the Dalai Lama and China situation, we have to sit back
Mitsu Ishii: even there, the Dalai Lama makes strenuous efforts constantly with the Chinese.
Mitsu Ishii: there's a big difference between acceptance and passivity
Zen Arado: maybe we need patience to wait for the right time to act
Mitsu Ishii: one can act with patience or act without it
Mitsu Ishii: or not act with patience or not act without it
Zen Arado: acceptance can include action though
Mitsu Ishii: exactly
Gaya Ethaniel: I think when time factor is involved, practical level of patience helps especially when situations can cause strong reactions.
Zen Arado: I seem to find it impossible to disconnect the time factor from patience
Zen Arado: 'waiting patiently' for something
Gaya Ethaniel: Also when a situation is quite stuck, I may decide to bite my tougue in order not to make the situation worse.
Dao Yheng: what happens if you strike the waiting part from patience, though?
Mitsu Ishii: there's a quality of patience which is right here
Gaya Ethaniel: idk ... I enjoy waiting, I don't normally see as 'waiting'.
Mitsu Ishii: something happens, that is negative, and we can be reactive to it or we can appreciate the larger context
Zen Arado: it seems to be future oriented though?
Mitsu Ishii: that's sort of "instant patience"
Zen Arado: hmmm yes
Zen Arado: but putting off doing something to a later time?
Dao Yheng: :) I guess it matters what we're being patient with
maria24 Murfin: i looked up one definition and it said good-natured tolerance of delay or incompetence so wouldnt the word delay involve the time element
Zen Arado: should forget the 'doing' part maybe ?
Mitsu Ishii: it doesn't have to be about time at all
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Mitsu, that's why I did wonder if patience in this context can be developed directly.
Mitsu Ishii: for example, something goes wrong and you get upset with whatever it is
Mitsu Ishii: like a flat tire
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: On the way to the cinema?
Mitsu Ishii: I was in India and it's quite a difficult place
Gaya Ethaniel: heheheh
Mitsu Ishii: very strange place
Mitsu Ishii: but anyway, on my way to the airport to leave, I had called a taxi
Mitsu Ishii: the taxi arrived on time and everything was fine
Mitsu Ishii: it was an expensive (for India) taxi service
Mitsu Ishii: but as we were headed to the airport, the taxi got a flat
Mitsu Ishii: so we pulled over
Mitsu Ishii: and the taxi driver got out and I could see he was getting out the jack
Mitsu Ishii: he didn't say anything. In India there are big class differences
Mitsu Ishii: so I think he was worried I was going to get irritated at him or yell
Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... he saw you as an upper class person even if you are a foreigner?
Mitsu Ishii: but I just got out and started to help him change the tire
Mitsu Ishii: yes
Mitsu Ishii: well most foreigners are upper class by Indian standards
Mitsu Ishii: he was a little weirded out that I was helping him but he accepted it because he knew we could change it faster
Gaya Ethaniel: ok interesting ...
Mitsu Ishii: so we change the tire and we get back in and drive to the airport
Mitsu Ishii: at the end he starts to apologize profusely
Mitsu Ishii: seeming a bit nervous
Mitsu Ishii: and I just told him it was fine and things like that happen
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Tronky :)
Zen Arado: brb
Mitsu Ishii: so he was SO relieved
Tronky Niki: hello
Mitsu Ishii: and he made small talk after that
Gaya Ethaniel: I will IM Tronky with an introduction ...
Mitsu Ishii: but I was thinking that in India there are many situations of conflict and strife
Mitsu Ishii: where simply being more accepting of a situation as it is would help immensely, without being resigned to it
Mitsu Ishii: that is, we needed to change the tire, we leapt into action, together
Mitsu Ishii: but at the same time, no rancor or anger or impatience..
Mitsu Ishii: just calmly working with the situation as it is
Mitsu Ishii: then we can bridge the gap between classes and between foreigners and locals and so on
Mitsu Ishii: anyway that's my little story
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello varan024 :) I will IM you to introduce our group.
varan024 Aristocrat: ok
varan024 Aristocrat: hi for all
varan024 Aristocrat: i am from serbia
Mitsu Ishii: I think of patience as a paramita as more about how one responds to situations
Gaya Ethaniel: Why don't you grab a seat ... varan.
Mitsu Ishii: you're in a hurry, or you are frustrated with a broken machine or whatever
Mitsu Ishii: or someone is attacking you and so on
varan024 Aristocrat: i dont set when smoke
Mitsu Ishii: how do you respond to that situation now
Zen Arado: ha ha just had a fire alarm in my block of apartments
Mitsu Ishii: haha
Dao Yheng: :)))
Zen Arado: woman next door was smoking
Gaya Ethaniel: Well my experience of showing acceptance is that most of the time I get a bad service.
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... :)
Zen Arado: is patience related to tolerance then?
Zen Arado: are they the same?
Gaya Ethaniel: You know I find tolerance somewhat problematic.
Gaya Ethaniel: It implies inequality.
Zen Arado: if you tolerate a situation it seems like patience?
Zen Arado: true Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: By a long thread, this I think relates to patience being patchy sometimes.
Zen Arado: does patience imply inequality too?
Zen Arado: inequality in Mitsu's story
Zen Arado: sorry I'm going off into word definitions
Gaya Ethaniel: Someone once told me how he can't teach his wife anything while he was very well liked by his students.
Gaya Ethaniel: So my thoughts would be ... why patient with his students while not with his wife?
Zen Arado: good point Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: So being impatient is a shade of anger I think.
Dao Yheng: :) wives are a tough audience
Gaya Ethaniel: And sometimes we refrain from being angry at some people ... while not others.
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Zen Arado: harder to be patient with those closer to you isn't it?
Zen Arado: why is that?
Dao Yheng: I think that is a traditional understanding of patience -- it is an alternative to anger
Mitsu Ishii: wives don't like to be taught things by husbands
Gaya Ethaniel: So the patchy quality here points to ... perhaps contrived patience rather than spontaneous expressions.
Mitsu Ishii: that is my experience :)
Dao Yheng: It could just be that wives are holding their husbands to a higher standard
Timbo Quan: wives rarely exhibit patience would be my experience
Zen Arado: maybe patience is always contrived
Dao Yheng: and that husbands should be more patient about that :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes expectation ...
Zen Arado: requires effort...
Gaya Ethaniel: I don't think that's the case always Zen.
Zen Arado: you might not notice it then?
Dao Yheng: although I guess there's no reason to be prejudiced against effort either
Gaya Ethaniel: I wouldn't say Mitsu's example is born out of efforts.
Zen Arado: we always want people to notice our patience
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes that's what I meant by different levels.
Gaya Ethaniel: Refraining oneself from reacting requires efforts for example.
Gaya Ethaniel: And of course catching it before ...
Gaya Ethaniel: See? Being patience isn't so straight forward :)
Zen Arado: but you could say Mitsu's action had some impatience in it too
Zen Arado: he wanted to get to the airport faster
Gaya Ethaniel: Well it was rather a shared intention?
Gaya Ethaniel: With the driver?
Zen Arado: speed things up
Zen Arado: ?
Gaya Ethaniel: Shared aim I mean ...
Gaya Ethaniel: A shared aim with the driver rather than impatience ... sorry I'm a bit tired here.
Dao Yheng: Hmm, noticing that the next paramita is "Joyous effort" / vigor, something like that
Gaya Ethaniel: Is it? :)
Zen Arado: think I'm getting too philosophical and too much into concepts
Dao Yheng: maybe Zen is keying in on the natural next step with all this?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes perhaps :)
Zen Arado: no I wasn't :)
Mitsu Ishii: but this is what I mean: patience doesn't mean not doing things to make things go faster :)
Dao Yheng: you're modest, Zen!
Zen Arado: but maybe I should :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mitsu Ishii: for example, you might want to accelerate the end of slavery
Mitsu Ishii: or the end of poverty
Mitsu Ishii: or the end of the subjugation of women
Gaya Ethaniel: But driving such an aim from anger isn't sustainable.
Mitsu Ishii: but you can do that in a patient or an impatient way
Gaya Ethaniel: Anger can give a boost of energy - can be addictive.
Zen Arado: impatience can be a good motivator
Gaya Ethaniel: But I think genuine patience can give much more and less harmful ... :)
Zen Arado: impatient wqith slavery?
Zen Arado: patience could prolong bad things
Dao Yheng: yes, it does feel like there is a way to be patient with impatience too
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mitsu Ishii: I'm trying to distinguish between changing things or acting to change things
Dao Yheng: recognize impatience's strengths
Mitsu Ishii: and doing so in a way which is contrary to the paramita of patience
Mitsu Ishii: wanting to change something isn't the same as being impatient with it
Zen Arado: sometimes we change things for the worse
Gaya Ethaniel: True, one can get angry about stuff but do nothing.
Mitsu Ishii: if a surgeon is operating on you
Mitsu Ishii: you certainly don't want him to be operating "impatiently"
Zen Arado: the world is so complex - how do we know the right action?
Mitsu Ishii: even if the surgeon is trying to change something in you physically
Mitsu Ishii: that I think is the point of practice, even doing things like taiji and qi gong
Dao Yheng: I think we can know what might be the right way of acting, even if we don't know how we're going to get to a specific end
Mitsu Ishii: you can learn to feel things in a better way
Zen Arado: we have to act anyway
Mitsu Ishii: to be more in accord with Tao as the Taoists would say
Mitsu Ishii: it's not necessarily a matter of knowing intellectually
Dao Yheng: right, so even being impatient with slavery, it doesn't mean now we go around stomping on people
Gaya Ethaniel: ack
Zen Arado: learn to be more attuned to what might be a better way
Mitsu Ishii: we seem to be at the end of our session
Mitsu Ishii: what is next week's topic?
Mitsu Ishii: virya?
Mitsu Ishii: Vīrya pāramitā : energy, diligence, vigor, effort
Dao Yheng: we could consider patience and virya together, or did we just do that?
Mitsu Ishii: let's do virya
Mitsu Ishii: perhaps we should try to reminds some folks more directly
Gaya Ethaniel: Vīrya (Sanskrit; Pāli: viriya; Tibetan: brtson-'grus) is "effort," "vigor," "diligence," "zeal," or "energy."
Dao Yheng: ok, sounds good
Mitsu Ishii: that we are starting up again, like Calvino and Agatha
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I have ...
Mitsu Ishii: ok cool
Gaya Ethaniel: I think I did ... at PaB.
Gaya Ethaniel: I will send out a notice the day before anyway. They should have received Kira notices as well.
Dao Yheng: sounds good
Zen Arado: yes
Mitsu Ishii: okay, see you guys next week then!
Dao Yheng: It's lovely to see you all again!
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Vic. You're too late, we have finished our meeting :P
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks everyone :)
Timbo Quan: Bye all - have good week!
Dao Yheng: Bye all!
Zen Arado: yes it it's good to be back
maria24 Murfin: ok ty
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Zen Arado: bye all
Gaya Ethaniel: I will post the log.
maria24 Murfin: bye for now