2010.06.10 - Dana Paramita (Generosity)

-Note that Eliza edited a little and pasted greetings at the bottom of the log, in order to begin with the content of the meeting. 

Dao Yheng: Hi Tashi, have you been here for the Ways of Knowing discussion before?
Dao Yheng: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
Tashi Riddler: Hi Dao
Tashi Riddler: First time
Eliza Madrigal is catching up... reading reports posted today
Dao Yheng: Our theme for the day is generosity as part of the Six Perfections --
Dao Yheng: some links on the site

Mitsu Ishii: so I missed the end of the last meeting. we were talking about the paramitas?
Mitsu Ishii: all of them or just some of them
Zen Arado: I thought trying to do them all ine sitting was too much so I only did the first one
Eliza Madrigal: Yes. It was something I'd put on my homework ideas and seemed might be an interesting focus
Zen Arado: Dana , or giving
Eliza Madrigal: The idea this week was to look at paramitas in general, and also start with yes, Giving/Generosity/Dana
Calvino Rabeni: Is there a "Made Simple" or "For Dummies" page about those Paramitas? I hadn't heard the word before
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Eliza Madrigal: I came across quite a bit in searches... was impressed and surprised at what is on the web....
Agatha Macbeth: If so, please point me to it :)
Mitsu Ishii: the paramitas are roughly translated Buddhist virtues
Gaya Ethaniel: From wiki - Pāramitā (Pāli; Sanskrit; Devanagari: पारमिता) or pāramī (Pāli) is "perfection" or "completeness."[1] In Buddhism, the pāramitās refer to the perfection or culmination of certain virtues. In Buddhism, these virtues are cultivated as a way of purification, purifying karma and helping the aspirant to live an unobstructed life, while reaching the goal of enlightenment.
Mitsu Ishii: the ones I'm used to are the Mahayana list:
Agatha Macbeth: I was just reading that Gaya :p
Eliza Madrigal: And meant to post a link to the wikipedia page.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81ramit%C4%81
Calvino Rabeni: Scary words for the Westerner - virtue and perfection
Zen Arado: http://www.naljorprisondharmaservice.org/pdf/SixParamitas.htm
Dao Yheng: Shantideva's A Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way Of Life is well known as a treatise on paramitas as well
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes!
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Tashi Riddler: Milarepa's Song of Six Perfections has simplicity
Eliza Madrigal: http://www.shantideva.net/ (for future reference)
Zen Arado: " Our giving should always be unconditional and selfless; completely free of any selfish desire for gratitude, recognition, advantage, reputation, or any worldly reward."
Tashi Riddler: http://unfetteredmind.org/translations/perfections.php
Mitsu Ishii: generosity, proper conduct, patience, energy, contemplation/concentration, wisdom, skillful means, vows, spiritual power, and jnana: knowledge
Tashi Riddler: For generosity, nothing to do,
Other than stop fixating on self.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: mhm :)
Dao Yheng: I noticed Gaya's report picked up that theme :)
Gaya Ethaniel: mmhmm :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes, seems to get to the heart
Gaya Ethaniel: mmmhmmm :)
Mickorod Renard: yes
Zen Arado: difficult to give unselfishly I think - always find some sneaky way to find a reward
Mickorod Renard: if u r concious of doing so Zen
Dao Yheng: Generosilty towards self has to be part of the picture too, I think
Zen Arado: but you have to start somewhere
Eliza Madrigal: Hi GIlles :)
Zen Arado: yes Dao
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Gilles :)
Gilles Kuhn: hello all
Mickorod Renard: Hi gilles
Zen Arado: if you aren't kind to yourself how can be kind to others?
Agatha Macbeth: Bonsoir Gilles
Zen Arado: Hi Gilles
Mickorod Renard: I know what u mean though Zen,,I struggle with it too
Dao Yheng: I find it a very good place to start, actually -- funny what you notice about the ways you push yourself around
arabella Ella: Hiya Gilles!
Gaya Ethaniel: I think you are kind, period. Not you are kind to yourself or others ...
Dao Yheng: true, gaya
Zen Arado: hmmmm maybe
Zen Arado: why make a distinction
Eliza Madrigal: that's often true, but some find it difficult to see their own needs...
Gilles Kuhn: you can do kind things without being kind by nature hence you can be kind to others without being kind to yourself
Wol Euler: hello gilles
Dao Yheng: one way to be generous towars self is just not to be so "stingy" about what you're calling not yourself
Eliza Madrigal: Interesting, say more Dao?
Calvino Rabeni: yes that's nice
Zen Arado: it's mostly about allowing things to pass through us without hoarding?
Dao Yheng: If you say, that's not my tree, it's a form of denying yourself the intimate relationship with that tree
Gilles Kuhn: and if you are a beaver?
Zen Arado: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Or that's not my child, or brother / sister.
Dao Yheng: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Build a dam
Mickorod Renard: even reading the virtues I felt bad associating myself with some success in achieving some headway in them,,cos i felt that would be wrong to reward myself with satisfaction
Gilles Kuhn: but then its no more a tree
Calvino Rabeni: Your point is well taken then, Dao:)
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes what a surprising angle... nice. So in extending identity in a sense, there can be a kind of natural care?
Zen Arado: there's a kind of flow we shouldn't block I think
Gaya Ethaniel: Make sense Zen.
Eliza Madrigal: I think its okay to see that one has developed more sensitivity in a certain area Mick... doesn't mean there isn't still room, etc....
Zen Arado: maybe judging and calculating our giving too much too
Gilles Kuhn: could be but i would like to know what "flow" is?
Mitsu Ishii: there are actually two errors that you can make with this, as Buber pointed out in his Hasidic Tales
Mitsu Ishii: one is that you can be overly proud of your accomplishments, and the other is to be overly humble
Eliza Madrigal: like Gaya pointed out "Too loose or too tight" :))
Zen Arado: a flow of material things like money for instance?
Mickorod Renard: yes
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Zen Arado: we cling to it too much maybe
Zen Arado: another form of attachment
Gilles Kuhn: attachment is not necessarily bad even if some hindu prince saidthe cotrary
Gilles Kuhn: contrary*
Zen Arado: why not Gilles?
Eliza Madrigal: that was a great part of your report too, Zen, that generosity encompasses so much that isn't 'material'.... even presence and space
Gilles Kuhn: for example i am attach at my own freedom of thought and i agree to suffer from that but i will not relinquish it
Zen Arado: thinks attachment can cause us suffering
Calvino Rabeni: I was thinking about the proper use of attachments
Eliza Madrigal: in some sense we 'always' have 'something' to give
Gilles Kuhn: and absence f attchment too
Calvino Rabeni: when chosen "consciously" or with an awareness of what their creative role is
Gilles Kuhn: (badly laggng som lettes dontpass)
Zen Arado: hmmm...seems like stretching the word attachment?
Calvino Rabeni: I'd say, don't be too attached to the definitions :)
Zen Arado: it seems more like not allowing thigs to go when there is a right timew to do so to me?
Gilles Kuhn: nor the doctrines
Zen Arado: oh yes attachment to views
Gilles Kuhn: thyey are things you dont want o let o ever like your own freedom
Eliza Madrigal: there are many ways to interpret that word... some would say 'attachment' is 'care', etc...
Gilles Kuhn: to let go*
Zen Arado: philosophers should be prepared to ditch views easily I think
Agatha Macbeth: True, Liz
Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... attachment to freedom, not sure I'd use attachment in that.
Calvino Rabeni: And to care for what matters is to create your world
Tashi Riddler: Gilles... freedom is in each moment, lived each moment... or not
Dao Yheng: In a way, though, we never can lose our freedom -- rather we're trading it in or selling it off for some other perceived result...
Calvino Rabeni: To care for what doesn't matter is to create some world you don't really want to live in
Calvino Rabeni: (why do that)
Zen Arado: 'freedom' is a very nebulous word I think
Gaya Ethaniel: I think we are talking about more specific attachment here, /me tries to articulate ... spacing out :P
Gilles Kuhn: well if we wantto discuss my example of freedom as such we can have a full debvate tashi
Agatha Macbeth: Freedom is usually illusory
Eliza Madrigal: The thing is, when we discuss something like virtue, we aren't really discussing the idea of something? Its one part, but the thing is that its very 'personal'... as is one's sense of what is freedom/what is attachment, etc
Tashi Riddler: I think it's supposed to be giving....just now....?
Gilles Kuhn: and by freedom in resume its the fact to be able to act without anyconscious agent able to predict with absolute certainty your course of action
Dao Yheng: (Good point Eliza!)
Zen Arado: these paramitas remind me so much of virtue theory
Dao Yheng: What is virtue theory?
Zen Arado: a branch of ethics
Dao Yheng: (20 words or less -- go!)
Eliza Madrigal: hah :))
Gilles Kuhn: and could you teach i?
arabella Ella: Aristotle?
Zen Arado: wher you try to perfect certain qualities in yourself
Gilles Kuhn: it*
Agatha Macbeth: Onassis?
Gilles Kuhn: plato
arabella Ella giggles
Zen Arado: used to call it neo-aristotekianism
Zen Arado: ..telianism*
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Gilles Kuhn: shall i propose a lecture of nicomacean ethic in september?
Agatha Macbeth: Could do
Zen Arado: so that you reach a state of 'eudaimonia' or flourishing
Zen Arado: sure
Gaya Ethaniel: True Aristotle was big on something similar to cultivating virtues.
Agatha Macbeth would like to hear Birric's thoughts
Gilles Kuhn: and demnstrated that they cannot be properly teach ....
arabella Ella: and Aristotle also went for the happy middle road - the Golden Mean
Gilles Kuhn: empirically....
Mitsu Ishii: From a Buddhist perspective the path of paramitas is a kind of gradual path, where you try to get "better" at things. there is also the vajrayana path which is radically different.
Zen Arado: I was taught that was a logical fallacy
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, well this is what I felt was a bit of a breakthrough in understanding personally this week Mitsu... what you bring up....
Gilles Kuhn: alexander was not always logical but militarily he was certainly no fallacy...
Dao Yheng: go on, Eliza?
Zen Arado: the thing is it is not passive - we have to do something
Eliza Madrigal: that in a sense, it is both, we can be attentive to things, but in doing so we kind of step out of the way for virtues to arise... so it is both
Mitsu Ishii: since our teacher focuses on the vajrayana we haven't done a lot of work with the paramitas directly. however --- the paramitas do naturally arise even if you practice the vajrayana path. they just aren't explicit goals but just sort of natural expressions of being.
Dao Yheng: Yes, it is a path, but is also the fruit
Eliza Madrigal: exactly
Zen Arado: the Golden Mean I meant was a fallacy
Calvino Rabeni: Who is your teacher, Mitsu?
Zen Arado: reconsidering it
Mitsu Ishii: Steven Tainer = Stim Morane
Eliza Madrigal: which is far more joyful than a sense of 'trying' to become something... which then gets credit for something, etc
Mitsu Ishii: is our teacher in real life
Mickorod Renard: I dont feel too confused over it,,just am finding it dificult to seperate the reward aspect of following a virtuous path,,should one feel ok with it?..or should one not even ask oneself?
Calvino Rabeni: Oh, let me ask something then - is this workshop supposed to be for Stim Moraine's teaching?
Zen Arado: sometimes you have to go to extremes
Dao Yheng: I think it would be weird if it wasn't pleasurable in some way, Mickorod
Mickorod Renard: thankyou
Zen Arado: giving does make us happy I think
Mitsu Ishii: from a vajrayana point of view you can think of the paramitas as just a description of the way a realized being tends to act. it's not really a goal but more a useful picture perhaps to help imagination
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Zen Arado: yes - I wondered about that too Mitsu
Mickorod Renard: if I notice I have made someone happy from something good I have done it feels like nourishment
Mitsu Ishii: there's a more gradual path where you make the paramitas a goal. that's not what I do but it is a path some take
Zen Arado: if we just meditated for years we would automatically become kind and compassionate?
Calvino Rabeni: I see that to Mick
Mitsu Ishii: I don't think you can phrase it as a cause-effect thing like: meditation leads to XYZ effect
Eliza Madrigal: Well, the workshop was begun by Stim originally @ Cal and I think many of us appreciate his emphasis of very personal/practical application
Calvino Rabeni: NO I don't think so Zen
Gilles Kuhn: perhaps if you will to be so and reason in order to know how to implemen it you will save yourself some years.....
Zen Arado: but as a side effect?
Mitsu Ishii: it's not really about effects
Eliza Madrigal nods
Tashi Riddler: two different paths entirely
Tashi Riddler: if you have goals
Eliza Madrigal: In fact, we often or maybe never can *really* measure effects in some sense
Tashi Riddler: you cannot simply be in the moment
Liza Deischer is Online
Calvino Rabeni: If I had to guess, I'd say meditation alone is a dead end without intention, study, contemplation, etc.
Mitsu Ishii: the vajrayana approach tries to get beyond cause-effect reasoning, though of course approximately you can say such and such practice tends to have certain effects. but the whole point is to get beyond that sort of thinking
Eliza Madrigal: seems visa versa too, Cal
Calvino Rabeni: "Beyond" would mean - to be able to use it but not be used by it...
Mitsu Ishii: that's partly why it's so hard to understand because it is partly outside the cause effect picture
Zen Arado: but if you meditate for years and are still a mean scoundrel?
Mitsu Ishii: we're extremely embedded in that picture, is what they are saying.
Eliza Madrigal: Indeed
Gaya Ethaniel: Time to try something different Zen :P
Zen Arado: :)
Gilles Kuhn: well then you will have pss time withoutharming another at least
Zen Arado: can't find the right words here
Mitsu Ishii: well, what you might say is that the point of the path, if you can sort of align with it and participate in it and realize it, does have ethical implications.
Gaya Ethaniel: Indeed Gilles, not adding more mess is definitely being generous.
Eliza Madrigal: often yes, just the intention to do less harm, will lead someone into contemplation...
Zen Arado: something about being too otherworldy about meditation
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Mitsu Ishii: its not that medication "leads to" it, but if you are more realized in some sense you will certainly act in ways which are more ethical and so on, along the lines of the paramitas, though really realized masters might act seemingly crazy so it can be hard to tell :)
Calvino Rabeni: try meditating in the garden then, Zen
Mitsu Ishii: meditation I mean not medication :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: if a teacher hadn't been changed by years of meditation you would have doubts?
Gaya Ethaniel: yeah I was wondering :)
Mitsu Ishii: I have a story to tell about generosity
Gilles Kuhn: i have never understood where can lie ethics in a methods to achieve self enlightment
Eliza Madrigal: Sure Mitsu
Gilles Kuhn: ethics is about action in the world
Eliza Madrigal listens
Gilles Kuhn: choice of action to be precise
Calvino Rabeni: the story, Mitsu :)
Mitsu Ishii: that's a very profound issue Gilles which Dao and I were just talking about!
Zen Arado: it is hard to meditate if you have been lying and stealing and angry all day :)
Mitsu Ishii: but I'll tell my quick story first
Tashi Riddler: yes please
Wol Euler nods.
Mitsu Ishii: so one day I was practicing martial arts with my old teacher, Michael Thompson
Mitsu Ishii: we were doing an exercise in which you sit down and try to push each other
Mitsu Ishii: one person pushes into the other
Mitsu Ishii: and the "goal" so to speak is to push the person over
Mitsu Ishii: it's interesting because you really have to relax to be able to push effectively
Mitsu Ishii: and to absorb the other person's push
Mitsu Ishii: anyway, so I was doing this with my teacher
Mitsu Ishii: it was like trying to push a brick wall
Mitsu Ishii: so there I was, struggling and struggling to push him and he was just sitting there
Mitsu Ishii: so finally he leans over and says "be more generous"
Eliza Madrigal: !
Mitsu Ishii: and it was like a light bulb over my head
Mitsu Ishii: I realized the problem was I had been thinking of it in terms of a conflict, I'm trying to push him over
Mitsu Ishii: but instead, if I think of it as being generous with my energy, suddenly I felt a new reservoir of energy
Mitsu Ishii: and I could be generous with it
Gaya Ethaniel nods. Seeing the other as an enemy ...
Mitsu Ishii: so that worked a lot better. I always remember that
Mitsu Ishii: moment
Calvino Rabeni: Good story - I had that same experience, thanks for recalling it to me :)
Eliza Madrigal: What an excellent story, Thanks
Calvino Rabeni: It's actually a very specific, effective instruction
Mickorod Renard: nice
Agatha Macbeth smiles
Gaya Ethaniel: ty :)
Zen Arado: :)
Gilles Kuhn: and that would aply to general ethics problem?
Eliza Madrigal: The next paramita on the list just happens to be: Sīla pāramī : virtue, morality, proper conduct
Eliza Madrigal: I will not be here next week, but would we like to move on to that discussion for homework?
Gaya Ethaniel: This is very helpful point in daily life ... when tension arises in any relationship, I check what kind of view I have on that person/people.
Mitsu Ishii: the general ethics problem is a whole big question Gilles which is very fascinating
Gaya Ethaniel: Snapshot Eliza would put it :)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Eliza Madrigal: yes, snapshot stolen from Stim... heh
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gilles Kuhn: it is indeed mitsu
Mickorod Renard: fine by me Eliza
Mitsu Ishii: in brief there is a huge relationship between ethics and contemplative practice but it would take a whole meeting to discuss, but perhaps we can do that next time as we're covering right conduct in the next meeting
Zen Arado: if you go into the precepts this could be a very big topic
Eliza Madrigal: Maybe a few weeks on ethics...
Zen Arado: yes
Eliza Madrigal: Of course its endless, but in this context
Gilles Kuhn: well precepts soiund to me heteronomous which is th contrary of morality but well
Mitsu Ishii: there's actually a direct relationship between emptiness teachings/vajrayana and ethical conduct even though they seem so unrelated at first glance
Eliza Madrigal smiles... which is part of the conversation certainly Gilles!
Mitsu Ishii: Dao was worried about that issue this week so it is fresh on my mind... though this is something that I've long thought about. it is a huge topic.
Dao Yheng: Yes, there does seem to be a natural link between generosity and ethics
Dao Yheng: though I'm not quite able to put my finger on it right now -- will be interesting to consider it
Zen Arado: they are adopted voluntarily not imposed by an outside deity though
Gaya Ethaniel: I think, generosity, precepts etc., are different gateways to emptiness.
Eliza Madrigal: mmmm
Mitsu Ishii: though contemplation appears to be a personal matter in fact the real point of it is ethical
Zen Arado: unlike the commandments
Gilles Kuhn: is it not contradictory mitsu as ethics is about interpersonnal problems in the majority of case
Eliza Madrigal: yes, not external measurements in the same way... though at the heart I'm sure many things started off with similar 'spirit' @ a Zen
Eliza Madrigal: I look forward to reading homework reports and next week's session
Mitsu Ishii: well the ethical implications are actually much beyond interpersonal issues but we can discuss next week if you can make it
arabella Ella: gtg bye all and thanks!
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes thanks for this week's reports and today's discussion :)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the inter/intra relationships are quite related
Gilles Kuhn: probably not next two week i will probably be offline
Agatha Macbeth: Hence the name...
Mickorod Renard: bye ara
Zen Arado: a discussion on the relation of philosophy to Buddhist ethics would be interesting Gilles
Agatha Macbeth waves to Ara
Gilles Kuhn: i agree
Zen Arado: bye Ara
Gilles Kuhn: because i have never understood how buddhism could have an ethic
Eliza Madrigal: I'm sure we'll come back around to this topic... perhaps in a few weeks you can join us again and we can set aside time to have the discussion Gilles, Mitsu, all?
Mitsu Ishii: well, next time you make it we'll try to talk about that. we'll probably still be on the topic
Zen Arado: you can see utilitarianism, deontology and virtue ethics in Buddhism
Gilles Kuhn: as said kant the moral law in me and the starry sky above me......
Zen Arado: :)
Mitsu Ishii: the brief idea is that Buddhism has to do with expanding one's perspective in some sense, to see the larger and larger context
Dao Yheng: aw, Kant was a softy after all!
Gaya Ethaniel whispers, Buddha nature in me :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mitsu Ishii: and this makes ethics actually possible, in fact
Mitsu Ishii: that's my brief teaser.
Mitsu Ishii: okay bye everyone
Mickorod Renard: I am not too bothered about the philosophy,,been to lots of them and they eventualy went roundd in circles too,,i just want to live a nice way,,nothing more complicated
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Mitsu :))
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Mitsu
Calvino Rabeni: May all beings be happy ... please :)
Wol Euler: bye mitsu
Gilles Kuhn: softy if you understand what he mean by moral law i wouldnt say tat but i think his moral theory was never surpassed to now
Zen Arado: bye Mitsu
Tashi Riddler: bye Mitsu
Gaya Ethaniel: Enjoy your day/night, bfn.
Wol Euler: good idea, mick
Eliza Madrigal: Mick, yes definitely don't want to lose that focus... personal, practical... imo
Agatha Macbeth: Don't we all Mick? :)
Gilles Kuhn: bye mitsu
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you everyone :)
Zen Arado: thanks everyone
Timbo Quan: bye everyone
Zen Arado: bye all
Agatha Macbeth waves
Mitsu Ishii: that's what's exciting, is that you can in fact link all these things together: philosophy, practical, ethical, personal.
Mitsu Ishii: it doesn't have to be in ivory tower domains
Eliza Madrigal: yes, not too tight not too loose again ;-D
Calvino Rabeni: that is exciting, Mitsu :)
Mitsu Ishii: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now everyone, Thanks again. Thanks for joining Tashi
Dao Yheng: thanks all, bye!
Mickorod Renard: bye everyone
Mickorod Renard: i must go too
Agatha Macbeth: Byee
Eliza Madrigal: :::waves:::
Wol Euler: bye all, sorry to be so quiet tonight
Mickorod Renard: byeeeee
Eliza Madrigal: Tis fine Wol. :) raincheck
Tashi Riddler: bye everyone
Tashi Riddler: _/!\_
Wol Euler smiles
Eliza Madrigal: Be well :) --

Beginning Greetings:

Eliza Madrigal: Gaya, you materialized like "I Dream of Jeanie"... arising from the smoke
Gaya Ethaniel: :) ty
Dao Yheng: Hi Tashi, have you been here for the Ways of Knowing discussion before?
Dao Yheng: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
Agatha Macbeth: Was that the one with JR in it?
Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
Agatha Macbeth: Ah
Tashi Riddler: Hi Dao
Tashi Riddler: First time
Eliza Madrigal is catching up... reading reports posted today
Dao Yheng: Our theme for the day is generosity as part of the Six Perfections --
Dao Yheng: some links on the site
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Timbo
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Tim :)
Dao Yheng: Hi Tim!
Mickorod Renard: Hiyaaa
arabella Ella: Hiya Eliza and all!
Agatha Macbeth: And Ara too :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick and arabella :)
Agatha Macbeth: Is the floor comfortable Mick?
Mickorod Renard: yes ty
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: heheheh
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Mickorod Renard: i will spare the chairs for those with sensitive bottoms
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
Zen Arado: Hi all
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Zen :) You made it then
Zen Arado: oh yes
Zen Arado: juat a little bit late
Agatha Macbeth: We haven't really started yet ;-)
Gaya Ethaniel thinks Tashi looks less newbish today.
Tashi Riddler: thanks Gaya, but only a little less newbish ;~)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mitsu :)
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, just settling in. let me re post the link for homework reports:
Eliza Madrigal: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
Mickorod Renard: hi mits
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mitsu
Zen Arado: Hi Mitsu
Agatha Macbeth: Hello flying Mitsu :)
Mitsu Ishii: hello. it always seems to make me fly
Mitsu Ishii: sorry to be late I forgot to adjust my calendar alarm to the new time
Eliza Madrigal: No worries :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mitsu Ishii: oh my god, Eliza, what an outfit today.
Eliza Madrigal: I just made it, and am so glad. Shall we get started?
Eliza Madrigal: hahah, Thanks Mitsu :))
Gaya Ethaniel: Sure :)
Mitsu Ishii: congratulations on your daughter's graduation
Agatha Macbeth: Yay!
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you very much :)))))) :::beams::::
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Wol Euler: oh, right, congratulations indeed
Wol Euler: that would be Oldest, who typed over your shoulder once?
Eliza Madrigal: hah, yes Wol, that one :)
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Wol Euler grins
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
arabella Ella: Congratulations Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: quite an impressive girl, and quite different from mom... 18 soon and then allowed to peek in on us
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Ooh
Wol Euler: woot
Mickorod Renard: wow
Eliza Madrigal: let's hope she tells me who she is ;-)
Agatha Macbeth: Ha!
Wol Euler: we'll look for newbies named "Oldest" :)
Eliza Madrigal: hahahaha
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Agatha Macbeth: Or oldies named Noobist?
Eliza Madrigal: Okay, well thanks guys. I'm indeed very happy :)
Agatha Macbeth: If you're happy, we're happy :)