2010.05.27 - Dream Practice

Pema Pera: Hi Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Zen Arado: Hi Eliza:)
Eliza Madrigal: Gaya was feeling quite sleepy and will be unable to join us today unfortunately
Pema Pera: I hope she will get a good rest!
Zen Arado: :(
Pema Pera: Hi Calvino!
Eliza Madrigal: Yes. For now, have we all read homework reports?
Zen Arado: nice poem Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cal :)
Zen Arado: Hi Cal:)
Calvino Rabeni: Hello Everyone !
Pema Pera: (sorry, Eliza, haven't read the reports, and missed last week, but I'll try to get up to speed with this group this week; a bit more time now)
Eliza Madrigal: Zen, yes I thought so... Glad you enjoyed it. A choir singing that live was quite an experience!
Eliza Madrigal: Sure Pema :)
Eliza Madrigal: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
Eliza Madrigal: Zen, would you like to start us off by saying something about your report this week?
Eliza Madrigal: I missed last week's session but I enjoyed reading it very much
Zen Arado: ok just a sec
Zen Arado: forget what I wrote :)
Eliza Madrigal: heh
Pema Pera: :)
Zen Arado: this slogan seems important to me
Zen Arado: we regard 'reality' as being so solid and substantial
Zen Arado: always trying to make it that way perhaps
Zen Arado: ties in with impermanence and attachment
Zen Arado: Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: yes, in that vein I was interested in your focus on compassion
Eliza Madrigal: and in how impermanence relates to our ability to be compassionate
Eliza Madrigal: which I suppose is the focus of most 'teachings', etc?
Pema Pera: I really liked the quotes from Ken McLeod (just read the report, Zen)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Alan, Welcome :) This is ways of knowing workshop, which you can read about http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
Pema Pera: about relative and absolute Bodhicitta
Eliza Madrigal nods
Zen Arado: absolute Bodcitta is like being then?
Pema Pera: it is *so* amazing that the ultimate form of compassions is SEEING rather than doing anything
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: awareness
Pema Pera: like Being, yes, Being in total involvement
Pema Pera: whereas having implies distance
Calvino Rabeni: Being in total involvement sounds like enlightened acting then
Zen Arado: Hi Dao
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dao :))
Pema Pera: it is so encouraging to know that you can truly help others without having to do anything for them -- and then from that starting point, you can spontaneously do what it appropriate
Eliza Madrigal: From Zen's report:
Pema Pera: hi Dao!
Eliza Madrigal: "Absolute Bodhicitta, the direct perception of the falsity of our usual limited and conditioned world-view and of the pure unbounded nature beyond those limited concepts."
Dao Yheng: Hi, sorry I'm late (and laggy again)!
Pema Pera: and yes, Calvino, I think so
Pema Pera: btw, Zen, I don't think it's a problem to fall asleep while doing "laying down" practice
Eliza Madrigal: I'll make you a note Dao :)
Zen Arado: :)
Pema Pera: I have found that some of my best insights, inspirations, etc, came from falling asleep that way
Pema Pera: and dreaming and waking up again
Dao Yheng: (thanks!)
Pema Pera: we can trust our nature
Calvino Rabeni: I found that too, Pema
Pema Pera: (as long as we stay in bed long enough)
Zen Arado: only trying this lately
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, :)
Pema Pera: I find 8 hours to work well, 8 to 8.5 or so
Zen Arado: notice Eliza speaks of it too
Eliza Madrigal: MM, trust our nature
Pema Pera: to give me a chance to wake up in the middle of the night, practice a bit, and then drift to sleep again
Pema Pera: so then you have *three* chances a day :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, well I feel that I came into 'practice' at all through sleep so might as well keep going with that :))
Calvino Rabeni: Making sleep and waking more continuous
Pema Pera: yes
Zen Arado: good idea to set alarm to wake up earlier to enable this
Pema Pera: and with an afternoon nap you get *five* chances, hahaha
Zen Arado: as Eliza said
Eliza Madrigal: haha, yes
Eliza Madrigal: its like swimming... different textures of life, in a way...
Zen Arado: I have a clock radio that I switch off
Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni thinks we should all take a nap right now together :)
Dao Yheng: :)
Pema Pera: like the Malta retreat!
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Pema Pera: the silent day
Zen Arado: :)
Pema Pera: in short, we should join Gaya :)
Eliza Madrigal: That would let you off the hook, just before I ask you to talk about your report Cal !
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Calvino Rabeni: !
Eliza Madrigal: starting with the bumper sticker you mentioned: Imagination: Gateway to Reality
Calvino Rabeni: News flash, eh ?
Eliza Madrigal smiles... I like that... it ties in very well with 'using dreams to awaken'
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: Awakening within the dream - at night and during the day
Calvino Rabeni: (have quite a bit of chat lag today)
Eliza Madrigal: yes, and if I may say so, I sensed in reading your report that it was a kind of dreamy/playful writing
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: Also maybe it comes across that I respect the dream state, mind, and its play
Zen Arado: I'm realizing dreams are more important than I thought
Eliza Madrigal:  in a dream one is perhaps less self-conscious?
Zen Arado: haven't read much about that in Buddhism etc though
Calvino Rabeni: Waking life is what the dreaming mind does during the day
Dao Yheng: (There's a book on Dream Yoga by Tenzin Wangyal if you're interested, Zen)
Zen Arado: ty Dao:)
Eliza Madrigal: Is that something you've read or worked with Dao?
Dao Yheng: I've read, but not really worked with it much, no
Dao Yheng: gets quite technical, advanced
Zen Arado: you know we have a dream circle?
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, just curious. Thanks :) I did flip through it once
Zen Arado: in pab
Calvino Rabeni: Dream circle - last wednesday of month, 7am at PAB
Eliza Madrigal: :) Well yes now we do
Dao Yheng: but I will note that at one of his retreats, I dreamed every night -- unusual for me, but maybe typical of his retreats :)
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, interesting...
Calvino Rabeni: One thing about the circle - it will be helpful for people to learn to "slow down" while in SL at that event
Dao Yheng: (er, that is, I don't typically remember every night's dreams)
Calvino Rabeni: In order to relax and re-access the dream mind
Eliza Madrigal: So a question becomes whether we can create environments for aware dreaming? and for bringing that perhaps into our waking day as Cal and Pema suggest....
Eliza Madrigal nods
Calvino Rabeni: Not a typical internet using habit
Pema Pera: shouldn't we list those dream PaB sessions as theme sessions, btw?
Eliza Madrigal thinks so, (re environments) but we all know that :)
Calvino Rabeni: Agree, Pema
Pema Pera: to tell others and share?
Zen Arado: yes
Calvino Rabeni: overlooked
Pema Pera: np!
Eliza Madrigal: Sure... Lucinda and I are going to write something about it together for the wiki
Pema Pera: could you add that to the theme page perhaps, Calvino, also the next one?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Pema Pera: thanks!
Zen Arado: wonder how many you could accomodate?
Zen Arado: we only did 1 dream each last time
Zen Arado: and were only ..5? of us
Calvino Rabeni: It uses a circular sequence (or spiral) of taking turns
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, the idea is to bring one dream... to ask oneself 'do I have a dream that wants to be shared'
Eliza Madrigal: not to have to bring one always, etc
Pema Pera: in theme sessions there are a limited number of moderators, who talk -- good to keep the number of dream talkers limited too, I think 
Eliza Madrigal: We'll figure it out, I'm sure. Play :)
Zen Arado: yes ..was thinking that Pema
Zen Arado: what do you think about dreams Pema?
Calvino Rabeni: There are ways to do the selection of which dreams to talk
Calvino Rabeni: We'll work it out :)
Eliza Madrigal: The first went very well, and showed how close and trusting our community already is :) Yes
Zen Arado: any scientific research on their significance?
Zen Arado: I kinda though it was just random brain activity 
Zen Arado: thought *
Dao Yheng: I believe there is some evidence to suggest that the first dreams of the night might indeed be reworking of the days events, but the morning dreams take on a different character 
Dao Yheng: but I can't remember where I read that, so...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Calvino Rabeni: I've heard that "random" view but it seems odd on the face of it
Zen Arado: mine often reflect some RL anxiety I have or had
Eliza Madrigal: yes, well perhaps there is standard dreaming/dream interpreting, and then dream practice may be altogether different... or another layer of things
Zen Arado: sometimes years before
Zen Arado: wonder if the ego is involved
Dao Yheng: Also, that REM is no longer believed to be the only time you dream
Eliza Madrigal: May I ask one more question of your report Cal?
Zen Arado: reinforcing itself?
Calvino Rabeni: Of course, ELiza
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks... its this line...
Eliza Madrigal: "Dreams and commitments are closely related in my practice."
Eliza Madrigal: If you would say a bit more, because I also felt that the two assignments this week were related, though in a way I could not articulate 
Calvino Rabeni: One reason is that I contemplate both of them within the same mental space
Calvino Rabeni: A lot of the ability to hold commitments is in the subconscious
Calvino Rabeni: Dreams also reflect the depth of penetration of commitments
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, interesting, okay. Thank you
Eliza Madrigal: Mick!
Calvino Rabeni: And I think they can be "fertilized" by the conscious mind before sleep, with seeds of intentions
Zen Arado: dreams can come up with a solution to problems
Calvino Rabeni: And harvested upon awaking
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, I see, yes
Calvino Rabeni: Solving problems is the last stage of a long subtle process
Pema Pera: hi Mick!
Pema Pera: interesting connection, Calvino!
Zen Arado: Hi Mick :)
Calvino Rabeni: If a dream solves a problem, it is because it has already been working it for a while
Calvino Rabeni: giving the dream mind more awareness helps it do that
Eliza Madrigal: That was an odd appearance and disappearance from Mick our cigar-time contemplative :) 
Calvino Rabeni: clearing it out a bit before going to sleep aids its process
Zen Arado: all the pieces come together when the brain relaxes maybe
Pema Pera: (perhaps Mick was on a very very short cigar break?)
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: Zen, agree... it does seem much about 'integration' in some ways
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: like we don't let things settle in waking ife
Calvino Rabeni: Are we the "children" of the dream? Some interpretations of lojong see it that way, I thinkl
Zen Arado: why do some people say they don't remember dreams?
Calvino Rabeni: partial amnesia, zen
Zen Arado: Hi Aga :)
Eliza Madrigal: 'children of the dream'?
Pema Pera: hi Agatha!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ag :)))
Agatha Macbeth waves
Eliza Madrigal: I'll make a note. We've been talking about dreaming :)
Dao Yheng: Zen, I often have the experience of remembering a dream vividly in the first 10 minutes upon waking, and then forgetting entirely by the mid afternoon
Dao Yheng: does that happen to you?
Zen Arado: yes they fade so quickly 
Zen Arado: got to write them down immediately
Calvino Rabeni: @eliza, what we do is an expression of the world's dream, we are the children, not the authors... and that an innocent and open attitude helps - as in the biblical proberb
Pema Pera: for me, the most effective way to remember dreams is to have a voice recorder next to my pillow, and to speak just a few words about each dream the moment I wake up briefly, in the middle of the night. Then, the next day, those few words are enough to remember large parts of the dream -- like grabbing the tip of a table cloth, and pulling all the silverware with it :)
Zen Arado: yes Pema!
Zen Arado: was going to try my ipod
Eliza Madrigal: a wonderful idea, especially for those who scramble for paper.. then pen.. then light...
Calvino Rabeni: same here, Pema, except it's possible to have a "mental notepad"
Pema Pera: yes, but less complete, for me at least
Calvino Rabeni: Well, just get the corner of the tablecloth on it, that works pretty well
Zen Arado: Gaya had such a detailed dream description last week
Zen Arado: amazed me
Calvino Rabeni: although it relies on intention
Pema Pera: the only problem with using a recorder, for me, is that I quickly reach a point where I can spend the whole morning writing out dreams -- so I have to edit heavily to keep the task short :)
Calvino Rabeni: and that isn't always available, it seems
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: what I do then is just drop the "karmic dreams" and focus on the more "lucid" ones
Calvino Rabeni: One thing I believe - strict accuracy isn't needed - sometimes remembering is similar to re-dreaming it
Eliza Madrigal nods
Pema Pera: yes!
Pema Pera: sometimes the dreams extend in writing
Pema Pera: continue in some sense
Pema Pera: "the sequel" :-) 
Eliza Madrigal: Hm ... also with our recognizing the potential of dreams, is there also some potential to be caught up in dreams too much? Dao's report mentioned 'disconnection'
Calvino Rabeni: in that case, the thing to drop is the urge to have it make sense with Day Mind
Zen Arado: yes - we self-interpret the dream as soon as we have it
Dao Yheng: Hmm, interesting...
Zen Arado: and to have RL make sense too?
Calvino Rabeni: But, better to let Night-Mind reinterpret it, not Day-Mind
Zen Arado: day mind is crazy too
Eliza Madrigal: each stage as its own context?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes in a way
Zen Arado: self-centred dream
Calvino Rabeni: like each person has a different view of reality
Zen Arado: nods
Zen Arado: and our interpretations clash
Eliza Madrigal: each person seems to have many views of reality :)
Calvino Rabeni: what's of interest in hearing such a view? The significance of the story in its own context, plus secondly, what it knows that I don't
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Usha :)
Pema Pera: hi Usha!
Usha Aeon: hey :)
Zen Arado: Hi Usha
Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you again
Usha Aeon: smiles likewise
Eliza Madrigal: Let me give you a note :) 
Pema Pera: interesting distinction, Calvino, Day Mind and Night Mind
Eliza Madrigal: With ten minutes left, shall we decide on homework for next week?
Pema Pera: and in each case, there is another distinction, between what I like to call, just for my own notes "thick" and "thin" thinking -- rehasing vs. inspired
Pema Pera: sure, Eliza!
Dao Yheng: rehasing vs. inspired -- also a good distinction!
Calvino Rabeni: How about "Help" as a topic for next time?
Eliza Madrigal: Hm, in what way, Cal?
Calvino Rabeni: Agree Pema with those qualities
Calvino Rabeni: In whatever way is important to a person, in their practice
Pema Pera: (so karmic dreams as "thick" night mind, and lucid dreams as "thin" night mind -- could use other terms, but important to distinguish)
Calvino Rabeni: There are many sources
Calvino Rabeni: sometimes one looks/asks, sometimes refuses
Zen Arado: what about recurrent dreams?
Zen Arado: are they important?
Calvino Rabeni: What is it that helps one step outside the circle?
Calvino Rabeni: Is it just one's own doing / responsibility?
Pema Pera: so this also addresses devotion, Calvino?
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, I'm beginning to see...
Calvino Rabeni: Trusting teachers? Faith? Study? etc.
Calvino Rabeni: YEs it could Pema
Calvino Rabeni: What makes a difference?
Eliza Madrigal: Okay, yes in the sense of devotion, community, supports or senses of supports of various kinds
Calvino Rabeni: What keeps the old realizations from turning solid and becoming barriers
Calvino Rabeni: etc.
Calvino Rabeni: SUpport of a community?
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, well realizations seems a different topic
Calvino Rabeni: REflections from other intelligences?
Zen Arado: discipline
Calvino Rabeni: The realizations go stale when held within the small self
Eliza Madrigal: Okay, and dreams can be looked at in this context also
Calvino Rabeni: Discipline, grace, gratitude, resolve, surrender,...
Dao Yheng: Sounds good
Pema Pera: quite a topic, Calvino! :)
Dao Yheng: Eliza, would you like to comment a bit on your post this week in the last few min?
Calvino Rabeni: Indeed, but the tablecloth has corners to seize :)
Pema Pera: hehehe
Pema Pera: and loooong edges
Dao Yheng: I found it absolutely wonderful, but noticed you sneaked around it so far today :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Dao Yheng: if not, that's OK too!
Eliza Madrigal: I suppose I shared a lucid dream... which tells more than I ever could :)
Eliza Madrigal: Which is also the wonderful thing about dream practice
Eliza Madrigal: as Cal mentioned, every much like a koan in that regard.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: a taste of something can often seep into everything...
Eliza Madrigal: so dreams can allow that
Calvino Rabeni: :) yes
Dao Yheng: (into your daughter's concert as well :)
Calvino Rabeni: the taste of the dream seeps into the next day
Eliza Madrigal: Indeed... sigh... should have seen the tears :)
Eliza Madrigal: And wonderful to share with friends
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: <--sap
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Pema Pera: (; ;)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Dao Yheng: that's a typo -- should be snap!
Eliza Madrigal: It will be interesting to form the homework for the wiki...
Pema Pera: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks Dao and whoever edits that front page :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you everyone
Pema Pera: help needed there too, Calvino :)
Pema Pera: yes, thank you all !
Dao Yheng: That's mostly Eliza
Calvino Rabeni: ask any time
Pema Pera: glad I could join again
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Very happy to have you here Pema
Eliza Madrigal: Usha, let me give you a link to the wiki where we file our transcripts and homework
Eliza Madrigal: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
Usha Aeon: i have it thx
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, great :)
Usha Aeon: :)
Pema Pera: see you all next week!
Eliza Madrigal: Good nights and days ! Bye for now
Zen Arado: bye Pema
Dao Yheng: bye pema!
Agatha Macbeth: Bye for now
Dao Yheng: bye all!
Zen Arado: bye all