2010.05.27 - Dream Practice

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    Pema Pera: Hi Eliza!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Eliza:)
    Eliza Madrigal: Gaya was feeling quite sleepy and will be unable to join us today unfortunately
    Pema Pera: I hope she will get a good rest!
    Zen Arado: :(
    Pema Pera: Hi Calvino!
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes. For now, have we all read homework reports?
    Zen Arado: nice poem Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cal :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Cal:)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Everyone !
    Pema Pera: (sorry, Eliza, haven't read the reports, and missed last week, but I'll try to get up to speed with this group this week; a bit more time now)
    Eliza Madrigal: Zen, yes I thought so... Glad you enjoyed it. A choir singing that live was quite an experience!
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure Pema :)
    Eliza Madrigal: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
    Eliza Madrigal: Zen, would you like to start us off by saying something about your report this week?
    Eliza Madrigal: I missed last week's session but I enjoyed reading it very much
    Zen Arado: ok just a sec
    Zen Arado: forget what I wrote :)
    Eliza Madrigal: heh
    Pema Pera: :)
    Zen Arado: this slogan seems important to me
    Zen Arado: we regard 'reality' as being so solid and sybstantial
    Zen Arado: always trying to make it that way perhaps
    Zen Arado: ties in with impermanence and attachment
    Zen Arado: Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, in that vein I was interested in your focus on compassion
    Eliza Madrigal: and in how impermanence relates to our ability to be compassionate
    Eliza Madrigal: which I suppose is the focus of most 'teachings', etc?
    Pema Pera: I really liked the quotes from Ken McLeod (just read the report, Zen)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Alan, Welcome :) This is ways of knowing workshop, which you can read about http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
    Pema Pera: about relative and absolute Bodhicitta
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Zen Arado: absolute Bodcitta is like being then?
    Pema Pera: it is *so* amazing that the ultimate form of compassions is SEEING rather than doing anything
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: awareness
    Pema Pera: like Being, yes, Being in total involvement
    Pema Pera: whereas having implies distance
    Calvino Rabeni: Being in total involvement sounds like enlightened acting then
    Zen Arado: Hi Dao
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dao :))
    Pema Pera: it is so encouraging to know that you can truly help others without having to do anything for them -- and then from that starting point, you can spontaneously do what it appropriate
    Eliza Madrigal: From Zen's report:
    Pema Pera: hi Dao!
    Eliza Madrigal: "Absolute Bodhicitta, the direct perception of the falsity of our usual limited and conditioned world-view and of the pure unbounded nature beyond those limited concepts."
    Dao Yheng: Hi, sorry I'm late (and laggy again)!
    Pema Pera: and yes, Calvino, I think so
    Pema Pera: btw, Zen, I don't think it's a problem to fall asleep while doing "laying down" practice
    Eliza Madrigal: I'll make you a note Dao :)
    Zen Arado: :)
    Pema Pera: I have found that some of my best insights, inspirations, etc, came from falling asleep that way
    Pema Pera: and dreaming and waking up again
    Dao Yheng: (thanks!)
    Pema Pera: we can trust our nature
    Calvino Rabeni: I found that too, Pema
    Pema Pera: (as long as we stay in bed long enough)
    Zen Arado: only trying this lately
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, :)
    Pema Pera: I find 8 hours to work well, 8 to 8.5 or so
    Zen Arado: notice Eliza speaks of it too
    Eliza Madrigal: MM, trust our nature
    Pema Pera: to give me a chance to wake up in the middle of the night, practice a bit, and then drift to sleep again
    Pema Pera: so then you have *three* chances a day :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, well I feel that I came into 'practice' at all through sleep so might as well keep going with that :))
    Calvino Rabeni: Making sleep and waking more continuous
    Pema Pera: yes
    Zen Arado: good idea to set alarm to wake up earlier to enable this
    Pema Pera: and with an afternoon nap you get *five* chances, hahaha
    Zen Arado: as Eliza said
    Eliza Madrigal: haha, yes
    Eliza Madrigal: its like swimming... different textures of life, in a way...
    Zen Arado: I have a clock radio that I switch off
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni thinks we should all take a nap right now together :)
    Dao Yheng: :)
    Pema Pera: like the Malta retreat!
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Pema Pera: the silent day
    Zen Arado: :)
    Pema Pera: in short, we should join Gaya :)
    Eliza Madrigal: That would let you off the hook, just before I ask you to talk about your report Cal !
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: !
    Eliza Madrigal: starting with the bumper sticker you mentioned: Imagination: Gateway to Reality
    Calvino Rabeni: News flash, eh ?
    Eliza Madrigal smiles... I like that... it ties in very well with 'using dreams to awaken'
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Awakening within the dream - at night and during the day
    Calvino Rabeni: (have quite a bit of chat lag today)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, and if I may say so, I sensed in reading your report that it was a kind of dreamy/playful writing
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Also maybe it comes across that I respect the dream state, mind, and its play
    Zen Arado: I'm realizing dreams are more important than I thought
    Eliza Madrigal:  in a dream one is perhaps less self-conscious?
    Zen Arado: haven't read much about that in Buddhism etc though
    Calvino Rabeni: Waking life is what the dreaming mind does during the day
    Dao Yheng: (There's a book on Dream Yoga by Tenzin Wangyal if you're interested, Zen)
    Zen Arado: ty Dao:)
    Eliza Madrigal: Is that something you've read or worked with Dao?
    Dao Yheng: I've read, but not really worked with it much, no
    Dao Yheng: gets quite technical, advanced
    Zen Arado: you know we have a dream circle?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, just curious. Thanks :) I did flip through it once
    Zen Arado: in pab
    Calvino Rabeni: Dream circle - last wednesday of month, 7am at PAB
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Well yes now we do
    Dao Yheng: but I will note that at one of his retreats, I dreamed every night -- unusual for me, but maybe typical of his retreats :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, interesting...
    Calvino Rabeni: One thing about the circle - it will be helpful for people to learn to "slow down" while in SL at that event
    Dao Yheng: (er, that is, I don't typically remember every night's dreams)
    Calvino Rabeni: In order to relax and re-access the dream mind
    Eliza Madrigal: So a question becomes whether we can create environments for aware dreaming? and for bringing that perhaps into our waking day as Cal and Pema suggest....
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Calvino Rabeni: Not a typical internet using habit
    Pema Pera: shouldn't we list those dream PaB sessions as theme sessions, btw?
    Eliza Madrigal thinks so, (re environments) but we all know that :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Agree, Pema
    Pema Pera: to tell others and share?
    Zen Arado: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: overlooked
    Pema Pera: np!
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure... Lucinda and I are going to write something about it together for the wiki
    Pema Pera: could you add that to the theme page perhaps, Calvino, also the next one?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Pema Pera: thanks!
    Zen Arado: wonder how many you could accomodate?
    Zen Arado: we only did 1 dream each last time
    Zen Arado: and were only ..5? of us
    Calvino Rabeni: It uses a circular sequence (or spiral) of taking turns
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, the idea is to bring one dream... to ask oneself 'do I have a dream that wants to be shared'
    Eliza Madrigal: not to have to bring one always, etc
    Pema Pera: in theme sessions there are a limited number of moderators, who talk -- good to keep the number of dream talkers limited too, I think 
    Eliza Madrigal: We'll figure it out, I'm sure. Play :)
    Zen Arado: yes ..was thinking that Pema
    Zen Arado: what do you think about dreams Pema?
    Calvino Rabeni: There are ways to do the selection of which dreams to talk
    Calvino Rabeni: We'll work it out :)
    Eliza Madrigal: The first went very well, and showed how close and trusting our community already is :) Yes
    Zen Arado: any scientific research on their significance?
    Zen Arado: I kinda though it was just random brain activity 
    Zen Arado: thought *
    Dao Yheng: I believe there is some evidence to suggest that the first dreams of the night might indeed be reworking of the days events, but the morning dreams take on a different character 
    Dao Yheng: but I can't remember where I read that, so...
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I've heard that "random" view but it seems odd on the face of it
    Zen Arado: mine often reflect some RL anxiety I have or had
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, well perhaps there is standard dreaming/dream interpreting, and then dream practice may be altogether different... or another layer of things
    Zen Arado: sometimes years before
    Zen Arado: wonder if the ego is involved
    Dao Yheng: Also, that REM is no longer believed to be the only time you dream
    Eliza Madrigal: May I ask one more question of your report Cal?
    Zen Arado: reinforcing itself?
    Calvino Rabeni: Of course, ELiza
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks... its this line...
    Eliza Madrigal: "Dreams and commitments are closely related in my practice."
    Eliza Madrigal: If you would say a bit more, because I also felt that the two assignments this week were related, though in a way I could not articulate 
    Calvino Rabeni: One reason is that I contemplate both of them within the same mental space
    Calvino Rabeni: A lot of the ability to hold commitments is in the subconscious
    Calvino Rabeni: Dreams also reflect the depth of penetration of commitments
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, interesting, okay. Thank you
    Eliza Madrigal: Mick!
    Calvino Rabeni: And I think they can be "fertilized" by the conscious mind before sleep, with seeds of intentions
    Zen Arado: dreams can come up with a solution to problems
    Calvino Rabeni: And harvested upon awaking
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, I see, yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Solving problems is the last stage of a long subtle process
    Pema Pera: hi Mick!
    Pema Pera: interesting connection, Calvino!
    Zen Arado: Hi Mick :)
    Calvino Rabeni: If a dream solves a problem, it is because it has already been working it for a while
    Calvino Rabeni: giving the dream mind more awareness helps it do that
    Eliza Madrigal: That was an odd appearance and disappearance from Mick our cigar-time contemplative :) 
    Calvino Rabeni: clearing it out a bit before going to sleep aids its process
    Zen Arado: all the pieces come together when the brain relaxes maybe
    Pema Pera: (perhaps Mick was on a very very short cigar break?)
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Eliza Madrigal: Zen, agree... it does seem much about 'integration' in some ways
    Zen Arado: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: like we don't let things settle in waking ife
    Calvino Rabeni: Are we the "children" of the dream? Some interpretations of lojong see it that way, I thinkl
    Zen Arado: why do some people say they don't remember dreams?
    Calvino Rabeni: partial amnesia, zen
    Zen Arado: Hi Aga :)
    Eliza Madrigal: 'children of the dream'?
    Pema Pera: hi Agatha!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ag :)))
    Agatha Macbeth waves
    Eliza Madrigal: I'll make a note. We've been talking about dreaming :)
    Dao Yheng: Zen, I often have the experience of remembering a dream vividly in the first 10 minutes upon waking, and then forgetting entirely by the mid afternoon
    Dao Yheng: does that happen to you?
    Zen Arado: yes they fade so quickly 
    Zen Arado: got to write them down immediately
    Calvino Rabeni: @eliza, what we do is an expression of the world's dream, we are the children, not the authors... and that an innocent and open attitude helps - as in the biblical proberb
    Pema Pera: for me, the most effective way to remember dreams is to have a voice recorder next to my pillow, and to speak just a few words about each dream the moment I wake up briefly, in the middle of the night. Then, the next day, those few words are enough to remember large parts of the dream -- like grabbing the tip of a table cloth, and pulling all the silverware with it :)
    Zen Arado: yes Pema!
    Zen Arado: was going to try my ipod
    Eliza Madrigal: a wonderful idea, especially for those who scramble for paper.. then pen.. then light...
    Calvino Rabeni: same here, Pema, except it's possible to have a "mental notepad"
    Pema Pera: yes, but less complete, for me at least
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, just get the corner of the tablecloth on it, that works pretty well
    Zen Arado: Gaya had such a detailed dream description last week
    Zen Arado: amazed me
    Calvino Rabeni: although it relies on intention
    Pema Pera: the only problem with using a recorder, for me, is that I quickly reach a point where I can spend the whole morning writing out dreams -- so I have to edit heavily to keep the task short :)
    Calvino Rabeni: and that isn't always available, it seems
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: what I do then is just drop the "karmic dreams" and focus on the more "lucid" ones
    Calvino Rabeni: One thing I believe - strict accuracy isn't needed - sometimes remembering is similar to re-dreaming it
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Pema Pera: yes!
    Pema Pera: sometimes the dreams extend in writing
    Pema Pera: continue in some sense
    Pema Pera: "the sequel" :-) 
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm ... also with our recognizing the potential of dreams, is there also some potential to be caught up in dreams too much? Dao's report mentioned 'disconnection'
    Calvino Rabeni: in that case, the thing to drop is the urge to have it make sense with Day Mind
    Zen Arado: yes - we self-interpret the dream as soon as we have it
    Dao Yheng: Hmm, interesting...
    Zen Arado: and to have RL make sense too?
    Calvino Rabeni: But, better to let Night-Mind reinterpret it, not Day-Mind
    Zen Arado: day mind is crazy too
    Eliza Madrigal: each stage as its own context?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes in a way
    Zen Arado: self-centred dream
    Calvino Rabeni: like each person has a different view of reality
    Zen Arado: nods
    Zen Arado: and our interpretations clash
    Eliza Madrigal: each person seems to have many views of reality :)
    Calvino Rabeni: what's of interest in hearing such a view? The significance of the story in its own context, plus secondly, what it knows that I don't
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Usha :)
    Pema Pera: hi Usha!
    Usha Aeon: hey :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Usha
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you again
    Usha Aeon: smiles likewise
    Eliza Madrigal: Let me give you a note :) 
    Pema Pera: interesting distinction, Calvino, Day Mind and Night Mind
    Eliza Madrigal: With ten minutes left, shall we decide on homework for next week?
    Pema Pera: and in each case, there is another distinction, between what I like to call, just for my own notes "thick" and "thin" thinking -- rehasing vs. inspired
    Pema Pera: sure, Eliza!
    Dao Yheng: rehasing vs. inspired -- also a good distinction!
    Calvino Rabeni: How about "Help" as a topic for next time?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, in what way, Cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: Agree Pema with those qualities
    Calvino Rabeni: In whatever way is important to a person, in their practice
    Pema Pera: (so karmic dreams as "thick" night mind, and lucid dreams as "thin" night mind -- could use other terms, but important to distinguish)
    Calvino Rabeni: There are many sources
    Calvino Rabeni: sometimes one looks/asks, sometimes refuses
    Zen Arado: what about recurrent dreams?
    Zen Arado: are they important?
    Calvino Rabeni: What is it that helps one step outside the circle?
    Calvino Rabeni: Is it just one's own doing / responsibility?
    Pema Pera: so this also addresses devotion, Calvino?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, I'm beginning to see...
    Calvino Rabeni: Trusting teachers? Faith? Study? etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: YEs it could Pema
    Calvino Rabeni: What makes a difference?
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay, yes in the sense of devotion, community, supports or senses of supports of various kinds
    Calvino Rabeni: What keeps the old realizations from turning solid and becoming barriers
    Calvino Rabeni: etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: SUpport of a community?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, well realizations seems a different topic
    Calvino Rabeni: REflections from other intelligences?
    Zen Arado: discipline
    Calvino Rabeni: The realizations go stale when held within the small self
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay, and dreams can be looked at in this context also
    Calvino Rabeni: Discipline, grace, gratitude, resolve, surrender,...
    Dao Yheng: Sounds good
    Pema Pera: quite a topic, Calvino! :)
    Dao Yheng: Eliza, would you like to comment a bit on your post this week in the last few min?
    Calvino Rabeni: Indeed, but the tablecloth has corners to seize :)
    Pema Pera: hehehe
    Pema Pera: and loooong edges
    Dao Yheng: I found it absolutely wonderful, but noticed you sneaked around it so far today :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Dao Yheng: if not, that's OK too!
    Eliza Madrigal: I suppose I shared a lucid dream... which tells more than I ever could :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Which is also the wonderful thing about dream practice
    Eliza Madrigal: as Cal mentioned, every much like a koan in that regard.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: a taste of something can often seep into everything...
    Eliza Madrigal: so dreams can allow that
    Calvino Rabeni: :) yes
    Dao Yheng: (into your daughter's concert as well :)
    Calvino Rabeni: the taste of the dream seeps into the next day
    Eliza Madrigal: Indeed... sigh... should have seen the tears :)
    Eliza Madrigal: And wonderful to share with friends
    Zen Arado: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: <--sap
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    Pema Pera: (; ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Dao Yheng: that's a typo -- should be snap!
    Eliza Madrigal: It will be interesting to form the homework for the wiki...
    Pema Pera: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks Dao and whoever edits that front page :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you everyone
    Pema Pera: help needed there too, Calvino :)
    Pema Pera: yes, thank you all !
    Dao Yheng: That's mostly Eliza
    Calvino Rabeni: ask any time
    Pema Pera: glad I could join again
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Very happy to have you here Pema
    Eliza Madrigal: Usha, let me give you a link to the wiki where we file our transcripts and homework
    Eliza Madrigal: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
    Usha Aeon: i have it thx
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, great :)
    Usha Aeon: :)
    Pema Pera: see you all next week!
    Eliza Madrigal: Good nights and days ! Bye for now
    Zen Arado: bye Pema
    Dao Yheng: bye pema!
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye for now
    Dao Yheng: bye all!
    Zen Arado: bye all

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