2010.05.02 - Koan Practice [Nansen's Cat]

Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Agatha, Eliza and Yaku :)
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Gaya :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya, Agatha, Yakuzza :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Agatha Macbeth: Let's get physical Yaku ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: haha Ag
Yakuzza Lethecus: hmm
Gaya Ethaniel: Heloise and Zen can't make it today I'm afraid.
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Tim :)
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Timbo
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, that's unfortunate Gaya
Dao Yheng is Online
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tim :)
Timbo Quan: Hello everyone
Lucinda Lavender is Offline
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm sure they will catch up by logs :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes. I really appreciate the 'homework' component of this workshop... such a link to daily experience
Gaya Ethaniel nods :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dao! :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Dao :)
Timbo Quan: hello Dao
Dao Yheng: Hi Eliza, Gaya, Timbo, Agatha
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Dao :)
Dao Yheng: Oh, yaku too -- yay!
Agatha Macbeth: De Yak is back ;-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: head dao
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey, i meant :)
Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see everyone... quite a break we've taken
Timbo Quan: yes been a while
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Mitsu
Dao Yheng: yes, a bit too long for my tastes :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mitsu :)
Mitsu Ishii: hi
Eliza Madrigal: agreed, Dao. I've missed us :)
Timbo Quan: hello Mitsu
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mitsu :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Timbo Quan: brb
Eliza Madrigal: I guess we're settled, so here is the link to reports http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
Eliza Madrigal: I am finding koan practice tricky, mostly because one sees so many things, and as I think Dao remarked, they all don't fit together...
Eliza Madrigal: not like a normal 'lesson' or story :)
Eliza Madrigal: I guess that allows them to show things that are very personal though
Eliza Madrigal: ?
Dao Yheng: I found your comment quite insightful, Eliza, that there's a head / heart conflict in the way that we might approach a particular koan
Dao Yheng: you could treat them like puzzle pieces, just use the head to try and fit them together
Dao Yheng: or sometimes maybe the heart can point a sense that feels personal
Eliza Madrigal: this practice seems humbling ... makes one feel a little lost, like the usual keys/tools of logic don't work at all
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I've been mainly workinig with them by holding a prominent image that just pops up.
Gaya Ethaniel: This one, I had Joshu with his shoes on his head.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth smiles
Eliza Madrigal: its a great image
Dao Yheng: thinking of kids who put their shoes on their hands and heads
Eliza Madrigal: hehee
Mitsu Ishii: just finished reading the reports :)
Eliza Madrigal: and knees... because you can't quite walk well with feet when shoes are on hands
Dao Yheng: :)
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Dao Yheng: how did that image feel to you, Gaya?
Dao Yheng: I must admit, as an adult, I was also thinking about, yuck dirty shoes in my hair!
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... the word, serene, comes to mind ...
Eliza Madrigal: I liked your angle a lot Gaya, hadn't really thought about him showing where he was grounded... rather than in the 'conflict', etc
Gaya Ethaniel: ty :)
Eliza Madrigal: and dao's report showed me that I (arrogantly) had not even considered myself in the roles of the arguing monks :)
Mitsu Ishii: The fact is most people point out that it is quite unlikely Nansen actually killed the cat :) but sometimes Zen koans are written this way to be sort of shocking.
Mitsu Ishii: Steven also mentioned this when I asked him about this koan once
Dao Yheng: yes, it does seem like an intentional shock factor
Gaya Ethaniel: I think koans can be used like a mirror to target & reflect the mind to see it it better.
Mitsu Ishii: Eliza you mentioned the koan seemed humbling ... can you say more about that? I am curious
Eliza Madrigal: mmm, nods... yes like for whatever reason I was fixated on the idea of hearing about the way another handles something which seems wise, and making a formula of it
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, well when I read others' reports, I definitely saw my limitations and laziness, in a way
Mitsu Ishii: wait -- what do you mean by that
Eliza Madrigal: hah
Mitsu Ishii: the idea of hearing about the way another handles something?
Eliza Madrigal: about the formula idea.. I mean that we learn from one another, but sometimes we don't take the step to make things our own....
Eliza Madrigal: and act from a more original place? speak in our own words, etc
Mitsu Ishii: ah I see okay
Eliza Madrigal: So for whatever reason I thought of Solomon, and how someone might judge that Solomon's way
Eliza Madrigal: of making a decision was 'wise', in threatening to cut the object of dispute...
Eliza Madrigal: showing who was the 'truer' mother, as I remember the story
Mitsu Ishii: right
Agatha Macbeth nods
Eliza Madrigal: and make a kind of rule of that way of dealing with 'these kinds of things'
Dao Yheng: yes, but that can't work because of the boy who called wolf story!
Dao Yheng: :)
Eliza Madrigal thinks....
Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
Eliza Madrigal: guess its a bit the same point as being grounded, that Gaya brings up? each situation in its own context.. what kind of learning we are drawing on?
Eliza Madrigal: whether head/heart
Eliza Madrigal: hm, yes lots in here :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Well, you know ... like a good book, a particular koan can be revisited many times and see what comes up?
Dao Yheng: yes
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm afraid I don't follow re: Solomon, I will look up later or someone can email the group with a link etc.
Eliza Madrigal: :) Sorry Gaya, yes I'll find a link to the story
Gaya Ethaniel: No sorry I'm so ignorant :(
Agatha Macbeth: Silly! :)
Dao Yheng: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_of_Solomon
Gaya Ethaniel: So what matters I guess is what each of us see in a koan at any given time.
Dao Yheng: :)
Eliza Madrigal: hehe Dao, you are fast :))
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Indeed, Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: Useful that way ... I guess.
Mitsu Ishii: the solomon story is a clear parallel, though the point of the solomon story is easy to see
Mitsu Ishii: the nansen story as the commenter zen linked to points out is a little more tricky to understand
Agatha Macbeth: 'The wisdom of Solomon'
Dao Yheng: it's a tricky point in koans for me -- the koan format is a bit of a challenge, and the first step for me is often to relax a reaction to a sense of being judged or being tricked
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Dao Yheng: maybe that's the benefit too though
Dao Yheng: maybe in a story that's easier to parse (like Solomon's) I don't get as much an opportunity to come to my own terms with the story?
Eliza Madrigal: that reaction can kind of 'close up' our understanding, but if we see that by staying with it, hm, yes... then its personal
Eliza Madrigal: hm
Eliza Madrigal: like, even when a lot has unfolded of it, reading others responses and thoughts, I *still* feel like I don't understand it at all... haven't touched it
Dao Yheng: (I feel the same after having written hundreds of words :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mitsu Ishii: I do feel I understand the koan, but that's partly because I cheated and asked Steven about it :)
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Dao Yheng: Oh, do tell!
Eliza Madrigal: I'd love to hear more you can say about it Mitsu
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mitsu Ishii: I once asked Katharine about it when she was in a phase of feeling she could "see" clearly and she gave the same answer as Steven. And Dao also did, though she claims now not to understand
Mitsu Ishii: so I think it's probably on the right track :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mitsu Ishii: I felt sheepish having asked Steven after his answer because it seemed sort of obvious once he said it ... I should have been more patient with it. Well, shall I just give this version of the answer? I wanted to wait until we had had a chance to talk about it a little.
Mitsu Ishii: but perhaps now we can talk about this proposed answer.
Mitsu Ishii: any objections?
Mitsu Ishii: okay I'll go ahead then
Eliza Madrigal: None at all :)
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Mitsu Ishii: the answer Steven gave is along the lines of the commenter Zen linked to, though his answer is a bit more straightforward
Mitsu Ishii: I mean Steven's answer is a bit more straightforward
Mitsu Ishii: the clue comes with Joshu's putting his sandals on his head
Mitsu Ishii: so putting your sandals on your head is to say, turning things upside down
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mitsu Ishii: also the cultural allusion to mourning is probably an additional sort of joke as it were (as it is likely nansen didn't really kill the cat)
Mitsu Ishii: anyway, so the idea is the problem stems from the initial question: which becomes an allusion to our usual way of struggling with any conflict or issue
Mitsu Ishii: the first reaction to Nansen's challenge is to start with this idea that we need to solve a problem to "save" the cat
Mitsu Ishii: which is a metaphor for how we are constantly trying to "save" ourselves or fix situations and so on
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, of course
Mitsu Ishii: Joshu is saying: the whole question is upside down
Mitsu Ishii: there is no "saving" of the cat that is needed
Mitsu Ishii: the interesting thing is, he doesn't literally answer Nansen's challenge
Mitsu Ishii: because Nansen says: say a true word of Zen
Mitsu Ishii: and he doesn't say a word, he puts his sandals on his head and walks away
Mitsu Ishii: so in this he's saying: I'm not going to say a word, your question is upside down!
Mitsu Ishii: but Nansen says "If you had been there, you could have saved the cat"
Mitsu Ishii: he accepts Joshu's answer.
Mitsu Ishii: I think it was Dogen who said "How can you cut the cat in one?"
Mitsu Ishii: that's an equivalent question in a way
Gaya Ethaniel: Joshu probably was unwilling to consider such a question.
Mitsu Ishii: when I asked Katharine and Dao this earlier, both of them zeroed in on this "saving" aspect
Mitsu Ishii: Well joshu realized that to actually say a word would be to admit that saving is needed
Mitsu Ishii: so he answered by challenging the question itself
Mitsu Ishii: brilliant move really :)
Mitsu Ishii: without saying anything
Eliza Madrigal nodding
Eliza Madrigal: so inspiring... just seeing what is
Dao Yheng: Right, but on the fixing / saving aspect -- it's still a koan for me. Spirtually, maybe there isn't anything that needs to saved or fixed. But I still want to save the cat, I wish there wasn't an oil spill in the gulf, etc
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm tempted to say ... Joshu didn't intend to 'challenge' Nansen by putting the shoes on his head ...
Agatha Macbeth wonders what Schrödinger would have made of all this
Eliza Madrigal giggles at Agatha
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: talk about turning things upside down :)
Mitsu Ishii: well, as Steven said of course the point of the koan isn't about actual situations where people need help or something
Dao Yheng: cats have a lot to teach us, I guess :)
Timbo Quan: Thank-you for sharing that Mitsu - very illuminating
Agatha Macbeth nods
Mitsu Ishii: it's a metaphor for the way we approach problems or challenges
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes thanks Steven/Mistu :)
Eliza Madrigal: well, the question may be "does seeing the things as they are, touch the oil spill?"
Mitsu Ishii: yes, I believe it does. this is a fascinating issue because often people might criticize Zen or Dzogchen, etc., for this
Eliza Madrigal: or not 'the things' but things
Gaya Ethaniel: What I found inspiring was the way Joshu answered the question, in a single stroke cleanly without moving his mind.
Mitsu Ishii: but if you really accept things as they are, that includes helping.
Eliza Madrigal: mmm
Mitsu Ishii: the way I think of it is
Mitsu Ishii: one way to look at problems in the world is to go, "I wish the world were different" and another way
Mitsu Ishii: is to say "I accept the world as it is, and I am going to respond to it/work with it as it is"
Mitsu Ishii: there's a subtle difference between the two, because in both cases you are responding to the world but in the first case you're doing it while being in denial so to speak, which can lead to violence or turning away from things.
Mitsu Ishii: like why did this oil spill happen in the first place? Because BP kept asserting that it was impossible for an oil spill to occur (I've been reading about it)
Agatha Macbeth: Ha
Eliza Madrigal: and as we are? or does that open up a bit ... and if that opens up/loosens.. maybe other things do too somehow... so still a kind of faith...
Gaya Ethaniel: Well it happened hasn't it?
Mitsu Ishii: they wanted the world to be a place where they didnt have to worry about the possibility of an oil spill
Eliza Madrigal: mm
Mitsu Ishii: so they turned away from seeing the dark side of reality
Mitsu Ishii: but we all do that. we don't want things to have a dark side
Timbo Quan: rather they wanted us to see that world
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Dao Yheng: Hmm, yes!
Agatha Macbeth: 'To the dark side it leads...'
Mitsu Ishii: right, but they also didnt want to see it themselves. in their internal documents they apparently downplay the risk. even planning for a huge spill like this is admitting that it could happen
Eliza Madrigal nods
Mitsu Ishii: same thing happened with the Iraq War: we didn't even try to plan for things going out of control because we didn't want to believe it was possible, etc.
Agatha Macbeth nods
Eliza Madrigal: and the financial crisis (es)
Mitsu Ishii: exactly. it goes on and on
Eliza Madrigal thinks of a million personal situations too :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Fundamentally, it's about not being responsible/considerate for materials reasons.
Mitsu Ishii: so instead of hoping or wishing the world is somehow perfect or pristine or doesn't have problems, you face the reality that disasters can and do happen and so on. but that doesn't mean you just sit there and do nothng about them.
Mitsu Ishii: accepting that the world has a dark side should mean a compassionate working with it as it is.
Eliza Madrigal: Joshu used crazy wisdom :)
Dao Yheng: Hmm, so this is why Nansen can say, "You could have saved the cat"
Mitsu Ishii: that's kind of how I see this particular issue
Gaya Ethaniel: Well, acceptance in those examples can mean seeing clearly how things are. Without doing so, how one responds apropriately?
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes Dao... thanks for that clarifing pointer
Eliza Madrigal: indeed
Dao Yheng: nods @ Gaya
Mitsu Ishii: Joshu's response saves the cat while questioning the mind that is a neurotic problematic mind
Gaya Ethaniel: And of course ... acknowledgement
Eliza Madrigal: wow, so much
Agatha Macbeth: I need to be elsewhere now folks, thanks for a very interesting discussion! BFN
Mitsu Ishii: best of both worlds so to speak :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Heartfelt acknowledgement*
Mitsu Ishii: thanks Agatha
Dao Yheng: bye Agatha!
Mitsu Ishii: bye
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Agatha :) Thanks for attending
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Agatha :)
Agatha Macbeth is Offline
Dao Yheng: So, about next time -- Mother's Day in the US
Mitsu Ishii: ah we're at 1pm
Eliza Madrigal: In Shrodinger's world, the cat was never split indeed....
Dao Yheng: will enough of us be able to make it?
Eliza Madrigal: I will :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Ya :) Nice to see you
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Yaku :)
Dao Yheng: Bye Yaku!
Timbo Quan: bye Yakuzza
Dao Yheng: OK, let's go for it, then -- Mits and I will do some shuffling and see if we can make it
Gaya Ethaniel: Homework then?
Eliza Madrigal: hmmm
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Dao Yheng: homework koan... erg!
Eliza Madrigal is blank
Gaya Ethaniel: A question ... are we leaving Lojong now?
Gaya Ethaniel: Each of us can find a koan we want to work with for next week and write a report?
Gaya Ethaniel: If we are going to stay with koans ...
Eliza Madrigal: I thought so, but if there are more slogans anyone would like to work with that would be fine
Mitsu Ishii: yes, we could do another koan
Eliza Madrigal: okay
Dao Yheng: http://www.ibiblio.org/zen/cgi-bin/koan-index.pl
Dao Yheng: what do people feel about this one? http://www.ibiblio.org/zen/gateless-gate/19.html
Dao Yheng: I wouldn't mind going back to slogans too
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Dao! Really nice!
Mitsu Ishii: okay that's it then :)
Gaya Ethaniel: ok thanks :)
Eliza Madrigal: I use that last quote in online sittings and hadn't known where it came from :)
Dao Yheng: neat!
Dao Yheng: another question -- do people want to say something for Mits or Eliza or Gaya to take to the Kira meeting?
Dao Yheng: I am curious myself -- is this forum going well for everyone? Thoughts about improvements etc?
Eliza Madrigal: I appreciated what you wrote Dao, was nodding at the screen :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I don't have much thoughts on this except to compliment how the meetings have continued to be helpful and enjoyable.
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Timbo Quan: yes very interesting
Eliza Madrigal: there is a level of seriousness, for lack of a better word, while still being personal and simple.. very informing to day-to-day / moment-to-moment life
Gaya Ethaniel: A short summary will suffice, it's a quite informal and interactive meeting.
Eliza Madrigal: maybe due to the writing/homework link
Eliza Madrigal: and the range of our experiences
Mitsu Ishii: I actually kind of think Dao should make the report
Dao Yheng: yes, the homework aspect does help me a lot
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: If Dao doesn't mind, I'm great with that
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Dao Yheng: Hey!
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: Well, your points were excellent :) on pointe :)
Eliza Madrigal: and gaya and Mitsu will be there
Gaya Ethaniel: I must get going I'm afraid. Been a long day.
Gaya Ethaniel: Nice to see you all again. Enjoy the weekend.
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Gaya :) Nice to see you too
Dao Yheng: wonderful to see you too gaya!
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks everyone... off to post these sessions and take a little break before a pab theme session... busy Sunday
Timbo Quan: bye all
Gaya Ethaniel: Yeah ... that's true.
Gaya Ethaniel waves.
Dao Yheng: Bye all!
Eliza Madrigal: :::waving:::: Bye for now