2010.02.21 - Lojong: Hope of Results

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    .Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dao :)
    Dao Yheng: Hi Eliza!
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you :)
    Dao Yheng: You too -- another gorgeous look today
    Zen Arado: Hi Dao :)
    Gaya Ethaniel is Online
    Dao Yheng: Hi Zen, Mitsu, Gaya!
    Zen Arado: Hi Mitsu
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen, Mitsu, Gaya :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Again Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Dao Yheng: Mitsu added his post just recently
    Eliza Madrigal: Guess we'll give a few minutes to get settled.... and yes I'd like to read that
    Zen Arado: Hi Gaya :)
    Mitsu Ishii: hi everyone
    Mitsu Ishii: sorry I just whipped out that post at the last minute as usual
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello everyone :) Tim's re-installing his computer so can't be there today, sends his regards.
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Well... here is a link for the page, so we can catch up quickly... read anything we haven't and be on the same page :)
    Eliza Madrigal: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
    Mitsu Ishii: I like the T-shirt Gaya
    Mitsu Ishii: and Eliza you always have such spectacular avatars
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks :) I made the graphics too, want a copy?
    Mitsu Ishii: sure
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Mitsu... I'm a shopper here in SL I guess... as opposed to RL :)
    Dao Yheng: Interesting, Eliza -- what makes it easier to shop in SL?
    Zen Arado: it sure is a lot cheaper :)
    Dao Yheng: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thats a good question...
    Eliza Madrigal: I feel like I can set my own pace in a way, and have fewer boundaries..
    Eliza Madrigal: though funnily I wear a lot of black and white here too... hehe
    Eliza Madrigal: That's quite a piece you've written Mitsu....
    Dao Yheng: You definitely have a great sense of style
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you :))
    Eliza Madrigal: Fundamentally no wisdom-tree exists,
    Nor the stand of a mirror bright.
    Since all is empty from the beginning,
    Where can the dust alight...
    Mitsu Ishii: unfortunately even when I write something in a few minutes it ends up being long winded
    Gaya Ethaniel: Almost finish reading Mitsu's :)
    Mitsu Ishii: to write less would require more time :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, I relate to that too!!
    Eliza Madrigal: I thought the reports this week were nothing short of fabulous....
    Mitsu Ishii: yeah, that's one of my favorite koans
    Eliza Madrigal: we all seemed to come from distinct yet complimentary angles
    Zen Arado: the Zen koan about polishing a tile is on the same theme too isn't it?
    Mitsu Ishii: ( btw Eliza is moderator this week)
    Mitsu Ishii: yes, it's very similar to the polishing a tile koan, which alos involve Hui Neng, the sixth patriarch
    Mitsu Ishii: also involves
    Eliza Madrigal: Happily, five of us allows a nice bit of sharing space... can be easy today :)

    Zen Arado: realizing how much similarity these teaching have to Zen teachings
    Dao Yheng: in what ways are you thinking, Zen?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, well all of them are bypassing the kinds of usual thinking...?
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, Zen, please go on...
    Zen Arado: polishing a tile will never make it into a mirror
    Zen Arado: similarly meditation will never make you into a Buddha
    Zen Arado: same point about 'attainngn non-attaining'
    Gaya Ethaniel: Mitsu said "Practice can be seen as a gesture ..." I take a similar view currently, seeing practice as nourishment.,
    Eliza Madrigal: I love that idea Gaya... say more?
    Eliza Madrigal: rather than meditating or studying to gain something or 'become' something... practice being pleasureable from a place of 'complete already' ?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well, with a good posture, one can breath, wall, interact well etc. I've been thinkingn about 'why' I practice and observed how things are when I do regularly. As well as being a reminder, it provides nourishment for being awake, living fully each day.
    Gaya Ethaniel: walk, interact well*
    Eliza Madrigal: hmmm... yes so the posture is the stance... in a sense?
    Eliza Madrigal: view?
    Zen Arado: ideas of self-improvement are the big enemy I think
    Gaya Ethaniel looks around ... hm ... I don't know Eliza ^^;;;
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Eliza Madrigal: I had some fun with Dao's report this week, too.....
    Gaya Ethaniel: brb, too laggy, relogging ...
    Eliza Madrigal: thinking about all the signs, and watching the impossible drum practice... hah
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for that
    Dao Yheng: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I like that you were able to turn what was annoying you into material
    Mitsu Ishii: Katharine told us about the Rock Band videos on Youtube
    Dao Yheng: That has definitely been my koan for the last few weeks
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: if you one able to do that as a practice, I imagine one never falls short? hhee
    Dao Yheng: Part of it was just being willing to accept that noticing that failure isn't a bad result
    Dao Yheng: (sorry, I am still rather obsessed with results, despite good advice from Zen masters...)
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Eliza Madrigal: even when we think we aren't, maybe we are still constantly 'checking'?
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's difficult to learn without making mistakes ...
    Eliza Madrigal: "Have I abandoned results yet?"
    Zen Arado: it is a hrd practice :)
    Zen Arado: hard
    Zen Arado: that is what I have to realize
    Zen Arado: I find it so hard to just rest in what is
    Dao Yheng: I have really enjoyed working with lojong though --
    Eliza Madrigal: I wonder if we can play with it... rather than calling it hard, call it something like hm.. challenging.... or tricky...
    Dao Yheng: found it interesting to scan the list while in a fix to see which slogan might grab hold...
    Eliza Madrigal: use more accepting terms.... maybe like triggers, too
    Mitsu Ishii: it's a really helpful list
    Zen Arado: it takes repetitiion and perseverance
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh! That's a great idea Dao
    Mitsu Ishii: Katharine used to carry it around with her
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I can see why!
    Gaya Ethaniel carries around 'View' ... :)
    Eliza Madrigal carries around several books... maybe not as helpful...
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Gaya Ethaniel: That too :)
    Dao Yheng: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: kindle
    Eliza Madrigal: This gets right to where we live though... right into where we are and what's going on...
    Zen Arado: Pema Chodron says it is so important to stay with difficult situations and the feelings they provoke in us
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Dao Yheng: I imagine the flexi-books floating gracefully behind you Eliza...
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Mitsu Ishii: Dao and I have been playing rock band a lot, and it's actually a kind of meditation in a way
    Gaya Ethaniel: Actually I somewhat enjoy watching reactive behaviours these days.
    Zen Arado: I couldn't get Pema Chodron on Kindle :(
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's so instructive ... beofre I just cringed away from them.
    Mitsu Ishii: so it was only half joking that she posted that video in her report.
    Dao Yheng: yes, just the gesture of paying attention while veering off course rather than spend all my energy in suppression or error correction...
    Mitsu Ishii: because if you're in the middle of playing a difficult song and you start to think about whether you're doing well or badly (either one)
    Mitsu Ishii: it invariably messes you up.
    Dao Yheng: oh yes -- I love rock band -- could totally see why drumming is such an essential aspect of african rituals
    Zen Arado: yes
    Eliza Madrigal nods.. hm, yes if we're not 'on guard' because we're not trying to keep things out... does seem a great deal of energy becomes available ... what a great point
    Gaya Ethaniel: Don't you agree though one still needs to use some sort of thinking with awareness in the flow. Otherwise, it's easy to fall off the wagon.
    Eliza Madrigal remembers her tetris addiction and thinks to stay away from rock band
    Dao Yheng: :)))
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: But yes, worries and anxiety tends to make muscles tense and interrupt flow.
    Eliza Madrigal: There was one particular day when I was upset years ago... dug into a tetris game for hours...
    Mitsu Ishii: well that's the thing, Gaya --- there's a difference between thinking about success vs failure and just being aware of your situation and perhaps thinking about it in a useful way
    Zen Arado: it is thinking that causes me the problems
    Dao Yheng: I can say that I have tried to leave out thinking -- for me, it can be a helpful exercise, but thinking can also be a help
    Eliza Madrigal: shut off/bypassed the worry mode... and the breakthrough floated up
    Zen Arado: awareness is better
    Mitsu Ishii: because thinking about success vs failure flattens everything into a single dimension.
    Mitsu Ishii: I was talking with a young friend of mine who was telling me she had just realized this
    Zen Arado: and thinking produces more negative emotions
    Mitsu Ishii: on her own
    Mitsu Ishii: it is like ... if you were playing the piano and were having trouble with a difficult passage, and someone came over and said
    Dao Yheng: Eliza's tetris koan...
    Mitsu Ishii: "well, the thing you need to do is play that better"
    Mitsu Ishii: that is totally useless advice.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: but we're constantly thinking things like this
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zen Arado: yes you immediately become more self-conscious
    Eliza Madrigal nods to Mitsu.. yes so much that we hardly hear ourselves doing it
    Dao Yheng: right -- the invisible wall
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think it's useful to trust the process ... with practice, it does get better.
    Mitsu Ishii: I mean, if they suggested some technique or something that might be helpful, but just saying something about playing better or pointing out how bad it is does no good at all.
    Eliza Madrigal: So I wonder if there is something to be said for seasons and rhythms too...
    Eliza Madrigal: times that we dig in and become focused... and times to then step back and let...
    Eliza Madrigal: integrate what we've been working on... switch gears
    Gaya Ethaniel: And go out see a film ... :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)))
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: intentionally forget
    Eliza Madrigal: because after all, we're not afraid of losing anything...
    Eliza Madrigal: or gaining anything....
    Gaya Ethaniel: Apparently nothing to lose or gain :)
    Eliza Madrigal: and then we're back to practicing as pleasure and gesture....?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I agree though regarding learning as well as practice. In Mitsu's example, just banging on the piano for days won't improve it necessarily.
    Gaya Ethaniel: These days I just stop if I don't enjoy it.
    Dao Yheng: I think that has been part of the benefit of putting down thoughts -- just learning the skill of saying, well, there's another way to be in this story
    Zen Arado: this not looking for results is a really hard teaching
    Eliza Madrigal: I loved, as usual I think, the last line of Mitsu's report: It's not that we lack anything; if anything it's that we're constantly attempting to add to Being an excess. We already have the universe, but we try to add to that completeness and thereby (seemingly, though not in actuality) impoverish ourselves.
    Eliza Madrigal nods to Zen and Dao. Almost always I think I'm seeing from many angles with a slogan, then read others' and feel "Wow, I wasnt near that idea at all"
    Dao Yheng: Zen, I have my own thoughts about what makes it hard -- am curious about yours?
    Zen Arado: staying with strong emotions is so difficult - I always want to distract myself or rationalize them away
    Zen Arado: it is painful Dao :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hm,,, like getting at the root of something and the resistence gets stronger?
    Zen Arado: like a drop of water in a hot saucepan
    Zen Arado: yes we shy away from it
    Mitsu Ishii: so what do you do with that, Zen?
    Zen Arado: try to stay wiht the feelings
    Zen Arado: over and over again
    Zen Arado: but concentrate on the feelings not the thoughts
    Mitsu Ishii: do you find that you can see more of what the feeling is, or it reveals itself to you?
    Dao Yheng: yes -- the story can be part of the coverup
    Zen Arado: no- it's not analysis
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Zen Arado: just a feeling
    Zen Arado: ?
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, part of what we were talking about earlier also seems we could loosen a little and come back to pull more later... but not too much later ... be more and more sensitive....
    Zen Arado: if you analyse the thought process gets going again
    Gaya Ethaniel: I find it useful to rest in the bodily sensations during those times. I don't think at all >.<
    Zen Arado: yes Gaya
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, I see Zen... so you see that 'you' are the one adding the hooks...
    Zen Arado: my problem is over intellectualising and rationalizing
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: To fit something ... ?
    Zen Arado: to escape something :)
    Zen Arado: control some situation
    Zen Arado: rather than letting it be as it is
    Eliza Madrigal: 'figure things out' :)
    Zen Arado: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... I see sometimes that I still haven't accepted fully 'bad' things that happen in the world.
    Zen Arado: me neither
    Gaya Ethaniel: This underlines some of my reactive behaviours.
    Zen Arado: and it is one thing reading this and agreeing with the theory
    Mitsu Ishii: analysis isn't what I was referring to
    Eliza Madrigal: There is something Zen asked in his report at the end, too. I'd love to hear others' ideas/thoughts on this....
    Zen Arado: very different actually applying it
    Mitsu Ishii: actually what I was referring to is related to Zen's questions at the end
    Eliza Madrigal: Questions: What is the difference between abandoning all hope of results and resignation? And isn't there a danger of just being too passive? Or just wallowing in self-pity?
    Mitsu Ishii: it's also something that came up in a weekend discussion we had with Stim/Steven
    Mitsu Ishii: last week
    Mitsu Ishii: exactly that question
    Mitsu Ishii: basically he was making a distinction between different ways of interpreting allowing things to be what they are
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's similar to the fact being gentle doesn't mean being soft, wishy-washy.
    Mitsu Ishii: because on the one hand, you can interpret this as "just leave things as they are or appear to be in an ordinary sense"
    Dao Yheng: I can sometimes notice that resignation still clings to the desired result in some way
    Gaya Ethaniel: Those two aren't the same thing ... abandoning all hopes & resignation.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hmmm, listening intently...
    Mitsu Ishii: but in reality that's not really the point. though it's true that the idea isn't to struggle with and/or overthink things
    Zen Arado: accepting things fully still allows, even promotes better action?
    Mitsu Ishii: there is a sense in which, if we REALLY allow things to be what they are, that brings them in relation to a vast context, a ground of being, a presence dimension
    Zen Arado: yes :)
    Mitsu Ishii: so the feelings or negative emotions or whatever can open out into this vast inconceivable dimensionality which is what they already were to begin with.
    Eliza Madrigal: Someone this week said that we don't have to abandon results... but the hopes of them... which does ask the question well then are we depleting emotion/enjoyment....
    Zen Arado: we see things more clearly when we allow the thoughts and wories to dissipate
    Eliza Madrigal: and I think what you are saying speaks to that beautifully Mitsu
    Mitsu Ishii: well, the notion of abandoning results is that feelings are already present in that dimension. but we may be covering that over with constructs.
    Mitsu Ishii: we don't have to make something different happen, but we can relax the obsessive tendency to cover everything over
    Zen Arado: or figure out a new way to try to control things
    Zen Arado: in our favour
    Eliza Madrigal: humans are experts at CYA :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Dao, might you say more about about resignation clinging to results... interesting idea...
    Gaya Ethaniel: To be honest ... there isn't much we can control, is there?
    Zen Arado: doesn't stop us trying though Gaya :)
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Dao Yheng: Just that resignation for me usually means -- OK, but the other way really would be better :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ^^;;;
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Zen Arado: the word resignatin has negative overtones
    Eliza Madrigal: rather than relaxing....
    Eliza Madrigal: letting be
    Gaya Ethaniel: Abandon all hopes of control ... :)
    Zen Arado: in our culture it is just giving up
    Zen Arado: and that is not what we are doing
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well being responsive can be active rather than passive and resiging.
    Eliza Madrigal: not too bad, that.... if giving up into what is more essential... or, hm...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Because one has to be well aware of the situations in order to do a right thing so to speak.
    Zen Arado: there is a fina;ity about resignation is problem
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, responsive
    Gaya Ethaniel: Despair ...
    Eliza Madrigal: Well.... and maybe the point is 'who' is giving up
    Zen Arado: we are allowing ourselves to relax into a new way of seeing and being...
    Eliza Madrigal: :)))
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Dao Yheng: yes
    Zen Arado: letting go of old habits
    Eliza Madrigal: I've dropped the ball with homework!
    Eliza Madrigal: Quick!
    Eliza Madrigal: :)))
    Zen Arado: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Dao Yheng: OH!
    Eliza Madrigal: I was maybe getting toooooo relaxed :)
    Dao Yheng: well, I've always wanted to try: Find the consciousness you had before you were born.
    Eliza Madrigal: not too loose/not too tight...
    Dao Yheng: is that going to be too difficult to discuss?
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh Wow! What a great one to work with Dao
    Eliza Madrigal: It seems one that will again be seen differently for most of us... a deep well
    Zen Arado: your original face before you were born?
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: So we could 'just look, just see'
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :) Is there another that might compliment that one?
    Eliza Madrigal: What about: Follow the inner witness rather than the outer ones
    Dao Yheng: oh, nice one
    Zen Arado: sure
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Much to work with this week. I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts/observations!
    Zen Arado: so we have outside and inside to work with :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Gaya Ethaniel: Nice to see you, thanks for the discussion :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks so much everyone.
    Eliza Madrigal: Waves to Gaya
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Dao, Zen, Mitsu.... Have lovely days :)
    Dao Yheng: Bye all!
    Dao Yheng: you too eliza!
    Zen Arado: thanks for discussion - very intersting to get all the viewpoints :)

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