12.15.2011 - Exploring Sangha - Part 2

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    Ways of Knowing -- December 15, 2011

    Exploring "sangha" -- Part 2


    Mickorod Renard: hi Bruce

    Mickorod Renard: I came looking for you last night

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Mick! Still materializing out of the mist, I am.

    Mickorod Renard: Pila has us set to do some stuff on archetypes

    Mickorod Renard: how are you?

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): You were looking for moi?

    Mickorod Renard: yes

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Oh yes!!! The archetypes!

    Mickorod Renard: he he

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): GOSH, I keep forgetting to respond to Pila!

    Mickorod Renard: I am sure its about the i ching

    Mickorod Renard: not wok

    Mickorod Renard: Hi cal

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes -- but archetypes was the last item on his list. . .

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): so, I assumed that we'd be putting it off for a while.

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Cal!

    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Bruce, Mick, Santo

    Mickorod Renard: erk, did I miss other stuff?

    Mickorod Renard: Hi San

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Cal, San, - - -

    Mickorod Renard: I will read up some on archetypes

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes, there was a list of topics. . . (sry, everyone, Mick and I were talking about Pila's I Ching group).

    Mickorod Renard: we must chat one day about it

    San (santoshima): please excuse me, i will eventually come in

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): cool - - May I suggest that you look into Carl Jung -- and possibly James Hillman, in your investigation, Mick?

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): OK.

    San (santoshima): firestorm is a storm of slowness

    Mickorod Renard: ok,,i did look at Jung

    Mickorod Renard: I read him up many years ago too

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yeah. I'm a dyed in the wool SL Viewer fan.

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): welcome again, San!

    Mickorod Renard: is Pila on hols still?

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Didn't realize that Pila was on "hold."

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): or was that it?

    Mickorod Renard: holiday, i think

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): kk.

    Mickorod Renard: Hi alf

    Mickorod Renard: hi Wol

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Wol!

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): hi :)

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Boxy!

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bruce loves Wol's skating prowess.

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): :)

    Wol Euler: :)

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): wuff!

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): filling the silence

    Mickorod Renard: he he

    Mickorod Renard: so, where did we get to?

    Calvino Rabeni: Well then ... I guess you've read the WOK email Bruce so valiantly compiled

    Calvino Rabeni: about today's meeting?

    Bruce ponders "valiantly."

    Calvino Rabeni: This is the second meeting on the topic of "sangha"

    Wol Euler: Wol Euler looks at her feet, avoiding your eye

    Calvino Rabeni: heh

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)

    Calvino Rabeni: well one can also have the experience of playing it "by ear" :)

    Calvino Rabeni: an English expression for improvising

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bruce enjoys improvising -- spontaneity.

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): aph! :)

    Wol Euler: hello aph

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Aph!

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): aph is lost in the plants :)

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Hi sorry I'm late

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): The plants are not lost; she's fine.

    Calvino Rabeni: Skilled improvising is the stuff of masters - whether jazz or marital arts or another discipline

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): spits out a leaf

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): :)

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): very descriptive comment, aph :)

    Bruce listens for more from Cal.

    Calvino Rabeni: The word sangha means spiritual community, and I guess it claims that such is possible :)

    Calvino Rabeni: And in a way we've broadened it past its Buddhist origins

    Calvino Rabeni: to be about a possibility available to us more generally

    Calvino Rabeni: with apologies to the Buddhists who want to have that word mean their own schools

    Calvino Rabeni: because we don't have a word for it

    Calvino Rabeni: at least not in general

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): it's a form of flattery too

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): what has improvising got to do with the concept of sangha?

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): it is part of the 4 truths, isn't it?

    Calvino Rabeni: Only that we're improvising our cultural forms?

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): wb, Mick.

    Calvino Rabeni: And certain people don't read the emails framing the question :)

    Mickorod Renard: sorry, i didn't realize i crashed

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): wb mick with an onigokko tail

    Calvino Rabeni: so they get to improvise :)

    Mickorod Renard: :))

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): mick :)

    Wol Euler: wb mick

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): ah! :-)

    Bruce continues to listen to Cal.

    Calvino Rabeni: I'm interested to know, how many here have had in past or present, a community around them the exists to support spiritual personal or emotional growth

    Calvino Rabeni: ?

    Calvino Rabeni: It would be nice to have some experiential reflections

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I suppose I have had when I went to church as a child and teenager

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): ah, it's part of the 3 jewels

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I have -- a men's group that functioned as a sort of "snagha" for fourteen years.

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): they chose me however; I didn't choose them.

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): My mother did

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): sangha*

    Calvino Rabeni: :) likes that typo Brice

    Mickorod Renard: I had church, but when I moved, lost that

    Calvino Rabeni: Bruce

    Mickorod Renard: but I also see pab and wok as that too

    Calvino Rabeni: There's also the possibility of spiritual friendships

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): yes, mick

    Wol Euler: I've only had PaB for that

    Calvino Rabeni: I agree Mick, PaB has some of that too, and WOK

    Wol Euler: and before virtual reality a blog-based internet group

    San (santoshima): aren't all friendships, that, Cal? to varying degrees?

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): good question, San.

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I think so San

    Calvino Rabeni: what might determine the degree?

    San (santoshima): so do i

    Mickorod Renard: but some friendships seem to have selfish attributes

    Calvino Rabeni: Is it something we can have intentions about, or hold desires to work with?

    San (santoshima): causes and conditions

    San (santoshima): skill

    San (santoshima): motivation and intent

    San (santoshima): yes, can have intention toward spiritual growth within friendships

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): if we stay in the Buddhist scope then (from wiki): "most commonly, Sangha means the monastic Sangha of ordained Buddhist monks or nuns"

    Calvino Rabeni: Like Bruce I have an ongoing men's group, and also individual friendships within that container... I think the group holds the friendships

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): not all friendships have a purpose, an intent, a vision statement

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): But even with 'selfish' attributes -- even narcissism - our friends can function as vehicles among whom and through which we can "practice."

    San (santoshima): so we can speak of "householders" from that same perspective, boxy

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): i think "monastic" is the emphasis

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes Alfred, though personally I'm interested in learning from the possibilities of observing other traditions, but not going to join one. So the broader definition I think, assists thinking about what else is possible for us besides joining a traditional group

    Mickorod Renard: friendships don't always have the same goals

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): violet :)

    San (santoshima): sangha has a similar meaning for non-monastics

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): welcome to the throng, Violet.

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): certain friendships-not all

    San (santoshima): it's a support

    Wol Euler: hello violet

    Calvino Rabeni: There are whole Buddhist cultures too, with only a small percentage of monastics, but broadly Buddhist lifestyles

    Mickorod Renard: Hi Violet

    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Boxy, Bruce, everyone :)

    San (santoshima): hi Violet :)

    Calvino Rabeni: The monks are looked up to

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bruce ponders "what else is possible for us besides joining a traditional group."

    San (santoshima): the nuns are less lauded

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I have a great group of friends with whom I have hiked every September since 1985- we call ourselves "the Skoki Broads"

    Calvino Rabeni: but isn't that a little like we look up to the idea of a Buddhist sangha as a kind of inspiration of certain possibilities we don't have?

    Calvino Rabeni: Or don't feel we do ..

    Calvino Rabeni: Nice, Aphro

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): each of the broads inspires and teaches me in a different way

    Calvino Rabeni: Great!

    Mickorod Renard: that's nice

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): we go thru life's changes and talk about them

    Calvino Rabeni: I think that's a really good way of pointing out something that happens in such groups

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): as we hike

    Calvino Rabeni: The recognition that individuality contributes to the whole larger group

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): love affairs, divorces, cancer, mothers, menopause..

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): aph, yes. this is wonderful. i think your group is well eligible for the sangha status :)

    Calvino Rabeni: and that individuals may benefit from it , there

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bruce ponders hiking itself as sangha.

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): :-) I'll let them know. They would be delighted

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes it was for Thoreau and Emerson

    Calvino Rabeni: I agree with Alfred

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I agree with Cal on the "sangha status" bit.

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): bruce, yes. there's a monastic sense in hiking.

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): we are a mutual support group; 2 have died in the past year and that has brought us even closer

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Isn't "sangha" somehow a matter of personal involvement -- quality of involvement, and decision for involvement?

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): tho we live all across North America

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): *hugs aph*

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): you mean commitment, Bruce?

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): (boxy)

    Calvino Rabeni: It makes sense that some commitment and intention is required, Bruce?

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): (((Aph)))

    Mickorod Renard: I think a commitment to a certain mutual objective is central

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): feels well hugged

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I think so, Cal.

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): i think maybe you mean a certain degree of intimacy, Bruce?

    Calvino Rabeni: The mutual objective might be a general felt sense, not spelled out verbally anywhere

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): My major RL "sangha" discussed suicide recently.

    Calvino Rabeni: nods

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): yes? why?

    Mickorod Renard: true, but the central issue could be the star that we orbit

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): the really amazing thing was that every viewpoint on that subject was fairly and equally heard.

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): how is that an issue Mick?

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Equanimity to the max.

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): um, the star?

    Bruce ponders "star that we orbit.," (loves the metaphor).

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): why did that happen Bruce? Is it the nature of the group?

    Bruce listens for more from Mick.

    Mickorod Renard: I meant that as well as being friends and support, we mustn't loose track of the object

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): (yes, it is, Aph).

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nods

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): \;-)

    Calvino Rabeni: That's a good point Mick.  I often wonder how a group best keeps track of its central star

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): the star is the objective of the group Mick?

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): metaphorically speaking

    Calvino Rabeni: how to keep it in remembrance

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): not sure i follow you, mick :) what object?

    Mickorod Renard: I have seen groups fragment because of loosing its way

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nods

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): the star is the objective of the group

    Bruce recalls that some have felt THIS group to have lost its way. . .

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): ah

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)

    Calvino Rabeni: A sense of unity an purpose ... can be a subtle thing and can wax and wane too

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): and then we are finding it again

    Mickorod Renard: I think as long as we identify why we are in WoK initially,

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): common goal, purpose

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, good example Bruce :)

    Mickorod Renard: ways of knowing

    Mickorod Renard: what does that mean?

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): we are in the middle of re-writing it..

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hmmmm. . .

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): It seems like an evolving and organic process to me, Mick.

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): way we can comprehend our world

    Calvino Rabeni: I've found stating things coherently and rationally works as a kind of contemplation exercise for a group

    Wol Euler nods.

    San (santoshima): svadhyaya > study of the self

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nods energetically

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): There is a meta-star (that we orbit) as we evolve.

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): perhaps.

    Calvino Rabeni: but there needs to be some other "magic" or bigger context that makes people actually really believe the statements

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): cal, agreed

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): um, believe?

    Mickorod Renard: without throwing spanners in the works, perhaps we could look at the unaltered work that the Buddha himself wrote

    Calvino Rabeni: 'believe' as in have faith in them, that the words are meaningful

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): ah

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): So, allowing "sangha" to happen involves some primary acceptance -- perhaps denoted as a "faith: position?

    Calvino Rabeni: that would be a good WOK study topic Mick

    Calvino Rabeni: That could be true Bruce, I think so

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): It seems essential - experientially - to me.

    Mickorod Renard: I think that true's Bruce, outsiders could see us as mad..but we have faith in our sangha

    Calvino Rabeni: But it asks the contemplative for reflection ... "what is my default position from which I reach out with faith?"

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): To those who do not hear the music, the dancers are mad.

    Calvino Rabeni: :)

    Wol Euler: :)

    Calvino Rabeni: yes, even with a diagram of the dance steps

    Mickorod Renard: nice one, Bruce

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): btw, is there a goal for this session? :)

    Mickorod Renard: yes?

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): we count on our sangha but do we have faith in it?

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): no goal, Boxy, just exploring the concept of "sangha" -- part two.

    Calvino Rabeni: The goal is ... can we grasp "sangha" contemplatively

    Calvino Rabeni: and I think we do a good job for such a short and diverse meeting

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): hmm

    Calvino Rabeni: Each person's statement could be a branch to a whole meaningful orbit

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): maybe to have a deeper knowing of what a sangha can be,  Boxy

    Calvino Rabeni: We're exploring

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hmmmm. . . "grasp" .... Can we grasp ANYTHING contemplatively? or is contemplation by definition a surrender of grasping?

    Calvino Rabeni: I think it is both, Bruce

    Calvino Rabeni: yes

    Bruce listens, for a change.

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): an opening and a closing of a door

    Calvino Rabeni: alert surrender, we're not going to sleep

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): hmm

    Calvino Rabeni: Agree Aph, perhaps contemplation oils the door hinges too

    Calvino Rabeni: one closes another opens

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): we are taking in and processing what we hear from others

    Calvino Rabeni: but focus helps

    Calvino Rabeni: yes that seems a crux of sangha, what and how one learns from others

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): in an effort to apply it to ourselves

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): what does it mean exactly: to 'grasp contemplatively'?

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): understand using contemplation as a means, Boxy

    Bruce feels he's only just begun the process of learning within/through/as sangha.

    Calvino Rabeni: It doesn't mean anything *exactly*, like the tao that can be imaged is not the true tao

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): as in theoretical versus empirical?

    Calvino Rabeni holds the same feeling, Bruce

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I am very new to the process of learning through contemplation

    San (santoshima): aph, you are an artist

    San (santoshima): it is not new to you

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I find it easier to learn from discussing a subject the way we are doing now

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): For me, sangha is definitely experiential -- more than theoretical.

    San (santoshima): or painting

    Calvino Rabeni: Nice Santo yes, people have different abilities in different areas

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): as hiking is experiential.

    San (santoshima): yes

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): smiles at Santo.

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Never thought about creating as a means of learning

    San (santoshima): it is a very deep way of learning and knowing

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Isn't all learning a form of creating?  and all creating a form of learning?

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): perhaps a means of knowing though...

    Calvino Rabeni: Done awarely ... it seems powerful

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nods

    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Often, we have to learn to create

    Calvino Rabeni: Even the traditional samurai warriors were expected to be good at poetry and painting

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): bruce, so 'contemplative' would be sitting in a room in silence trying to understand what sangha is without participating in it?

    Mickorod Renard: I think, to contemplate one has to have things to contemplate,,like moulding and shaping plastercine..without the plastercine its meaningless..the Sangha is like the box with the plastercine in it,,,perhaps?

    Calvino Rabeni: :)

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, it could easily be that, Boxy.

    Calvino Rabeni: A sangha seems to bring real-life things to contemplate

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): mick, good metaphor :)

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nice metaphor Mick

    Calvino Rabeni: what makes them meaningful?

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): snap!

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): we make them meaningful

    Calvino Rabeni: They become more than abstraction or speculation in some way

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): to ourselves

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): Bruce, in other words, you're asking if sangha can constitute just one person?

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Perhaps our willingness to "drop" what we're holding makes them meaningful - -

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): when 2 or 3 are gathered together with a common spiritual purpose

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): well, I've never thought of sangha as just one person....

    San (santoshima): perhaps our willingness to hold what we are dropping makes it doubly meaningful

    Calvino Rabeni: People take marriages seriously, and are much affected by losing them through divorce, it's a deep human condition of being connected

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ahhhhh!

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): but you discuss how can one grasp it contemplatively

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): wonderful point, San!

    San (santoshima): :)

    Mickorod Renard is pondering San's words

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): sounds to me like "contemplation" is approaching us wanting itself to be a topic.

    Calvino Rabeni listens for more

    Mickorod Renard: he he

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): :)

    Calvino Rabeni: It's a good topic

    Wol Euler: :)

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): ari! :)

    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Ari :)

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Welcome, Ari!

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Hiya Ari

    Calvino Rabeni: Does anyone have an experience of leaving a sangha-like group, and what that was like?

    Arisia Vita: Hi all

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): oh yes, Cal.

    San (santoshima): hello Arisia :)

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): It was like a sort of death.

    Wol Euler: hello ari

    Calvino Rabeni: nods

    Mickorod Renard: its just a point,,but Stim was central to WoK,,his great life work was if I am not wrong,,contemplative practice

    Calvino Rabeni: A sort of death

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): it still is

    Mickorod Renard: Hi Ari

    Calvino Rabeni: a death of .. what?

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): deep communion with the other men in the group, Cal.

    Calvino Rabeni: nods

    Calvino Rabeni: and "not having" that communion is a painful thing?

    Mickorod Renard: I can understand that too

    Calvino Rabeni: For me, two major "loss" experiences were leaving a marriage, and leaving a spiritual community

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): oh yes. . . although I know that the men are still in a sort of communion -- although not visible.

    Calvino Rabeni: and I think the second one affected me more deeply

    Mickorod Renard: I used to ride with other bikers,,not really a sangha,,but a brotherhood,,similar loss

    Calvino Rabeni: That's nice to look on from afar, Bruce

    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Loss of community and connection is difficult

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): mick :)

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): perhaps we might only recognize sangha after we no longer "have" it.

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): interesting Cal, why so, do you think?

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): wroom

    Calvino Rabeni: Biker Sangha .. :)

    Mickorod Renard: :)

    Calvino Rabeni: Why Aph?

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): why was loosing the men's group more painful?

    Calvino Rabeni: Well marriage is sanctioned by the culture, and one can expect or imagine to have another

    Calvino Rabeni: but the spiritual community is not well-sanctioned

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nods

    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think we can recognize it while we do have it....but we might not always realize that we will or can lose it

    Calvino Rabeni: so it felt like losing something irreplaceable

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): some inner, deep connection, Aph.

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): because it wasn't sanctioned?

    Calvino Rabeni: because perhaps, it seemed like a rare bird

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): wasn't it replaceable too?

    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Mm

    San (santoshima): please excuse me ~ thank you everyone for this sharing

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): ok I understand, it was unique

    Bruce wonders whether to the original WoK group, our present WoK is "unsanctioned".

    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Be well, San :)

    Calvino Rabeni: Bye, thanks Santos

    Mickorod Renard: a sense of belonging

    Wol Euler: bye san, take care

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes, be thou well and happy, San.

    Mickorod Renard: bye San

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): not yet Bruce!

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Thank you.

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Bye

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Bye! San. thanks for calling me an artist

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): *likes unsanctioned deeds* :)

    Calvino Rabeni: I think it is an interesting question about what we feel is possible or legitimate, Bruce

    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Things don't have to be sanctioned to be real :)

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): You have the soul of an artist, Aph -- and your art reveals that.

    Calvino Rabeni: A question is, do WOK members feel legitimate or not, and would having Stim involved add something?

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): ((Bruce))

    Calvino Rabeni: Something irreplaceable?

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): it would add academic rigor

    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps experiential depth and a certain kind of skill

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): It would add a sort of "authority" also. . .

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): good question. from where do we get legitimacy? from the group, the sangha? or from an outside group (PAB or KIRA)

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): yes

    Calvino Rabeni: That's a great question too

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): never thought of my WoK status before :)

    Calvino Rabeni: Do we need authorities, and how much?

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): does authenticity come from without -- or from within?

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes right :)

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I would like to say "from within"

    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I don't think we need authorities; but we may need mentors....

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): each of us

    Mickorod Renard: I didn't realise how much I would miss Stim, but Stim left us the plastercine box and we can fill it

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I think Jesus faced this problem -- when folks wanted to worship him and he said, NO WAY!!!!

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): smiles at Mick

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): so did the Buddha, say that.

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): but there's always some kind of a leader (authority) present

    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, we long for mentors, yes? And believe we can learn from them

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): work out your own awakening, they said.

    Calvino Rabeni: This is one of the hidden issues isn't it?

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): It can sometimes be a vision or a value rather than a person Boxy

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): we can learn from everything, if we will.

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): aph, someone has to lead

    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I like mentors better than authorities, because they invite you to join them

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): even if implicitly

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): someone ends up being the leader whatever we call them

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): yes

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): this place is never vacant

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): things tend to fall apart w/o a leader or a guiding set of principles or values

    Calvino Rabeni: So if we believe in mentors, which seems reasonable, what is there to do when they aren't around?

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Speaking of leaders, would everyone be OK if we decide through email about what we'll do next month -- There are issues with Kira to be resolved.

    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hunt for feral wisdom? :)

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): without Bruce acting on wok nothing would happen

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): aawwww..... -- Of course it would!

    Mickorod Renard: I have no affiliation to Buddhism other than I find the writings and teachings as a way of knowing..the Bible also works for me too

    Calvino Rabeni: Sure Atara, the book of nature awaits also

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): mick, yes. woly had a good word at the meetup - offerings :)

    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes. I think that's a really good question, though, Cal

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): which one?

    Mickorod Renard: but I fight indoctrination. if I spelt that correctly

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): :)

    Calvino Rabeni: We're in a unique historical age where the ideas of the world's wisdom traditions are available ... if only we can find a way to understand them :)

    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): hehe, Mick

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nods

    Mickorod Renard: good point Cal

    Wol Euler clicks boxy's nose

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): *nods to mick*

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): and communicate them

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and BE them.

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): in ways that make sense to us

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): oops, makes sense to ME

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): :)

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): contemplative acceptance, perhaps.

    Calvino Rabeni: Most people resist indoctrination ... it seems though there's some necessary loss of individual "freedom" to be part of group intelligence.. is that true?

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Is group intelligence an oxymoron?

    Calvino Rabeni: No

    Wol Euler: not at all

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I think so Cal

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): just testing.  ;-)

    Calvino Rabeni: heh

    Wol Euler: well, depends on the group

    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think we try to be aware of the group's consensus.....and sometimes that means silencing ourselves

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): groupthink

    Calvino Rabeni: The consensus may emerge in a mysterious way

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I'm not sure whether there is consensus here

    Mickorod Renard: I like the idea of coming to a realisation on my own rather than just swallowing what I am told

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): emerging consensus

    Calvino Rabeni: oooh, scary word Alfred :)

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Is any of us as "awake" or as "wise" as all of us?

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): cal, can easily come to that :)

    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I'd have to think about WoK consensus

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): It's more efficient :-)

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): consensus can be a long process.

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): but maybe not useful

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): not sure it's always "right," though.

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): It's always good to have a dissenting voice or two

    Mickorod Renard: true

    Calvino Rabeni: The thing is, individuals use the intelligence of the group without credit and without awareness, but if it goes wrong, then they say "groupthink" .. it doesn't seem like a very objective perspective

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): aph, it is essential

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): a herring or two in the sardine net.

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): keeps us thinking

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes Aphro

    Mickorod Renard: devils advocate. he he

    Calvino Rabeni: every group needs its gadfly or provocateur or jerk

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): going back to a beginner's mind

    Mickorod Renard: I can be a jerk

    Calvino Rabeni: every village needs its idiot

    Bruce identifies with 'jerk' a lot.

    Aph wonders who the jerk is here

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): i think we all can be jerks :)

    Calvino Rabeni: and the Fool's Guild was an honored calling

    Mickorod Renard: hand raises

    Bruce hides.

    Calvino Rabeni: heh

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): fool=jerk?

    Calvino Rabeni raises three hands

    Calvino Rabeni: no fool!=jerk

    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes, we're all the jerk sometimes

    Calvino Rabeni: it's a learning experience, hopefully

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): May we all have a happy holiday -- however we experience that happiness.

    Calvino Rabeni: or could be, if ..?

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I have to go; it's 3. Thanks so much Cal and Bruce for organizing this. When shall we meet again, In January?

    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): The jerk is one who can't see beyond his shoes, and the fool won't stop staring at the sky

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes, in January. I shall be in touch with everyone.

    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Aph :)

    Wol Euler: bye aph, take care

    Mickorod Renard: bye Aph,,

    Mickorod Renard: c u soon

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Bye

    Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Bye!

    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks so much Bruce for your herding

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): it's important to have heated discussions, but open and respectful. yet not many can handle it.

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye, Aph.

    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I'm going to head off, too

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and thank you, Cal, for herding us cats today.

    Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Be well, everyone, and happy holidays :)

    Calvino Rabeni: miaow!

    Arisia Vita: I must run too, it has been great being with you all

    Wol Euler: and I, thanks for letting me listen

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye, Violet.

    Mickorod Renard: thank you to everyone, it's been fun

    Calvino Rabeni: Bye everyone

    Wol Euler: goodnight, take care

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): *pokes woly's nose*

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I will post this chat on the wiki.

    Wol Euler: heheheh

    Mickorod Renard: bye anyone going

    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks

    Mickorod Renard: did we conclude anything?

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye, Woly!

    Calvino Rabeni: do you want to update the "Stim no more" statement, Bruce?

    Mickorod Renard: :)

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Ahhhh. . . Did we conclude anything? I love that, Mick.

    Calvino Rabeni: Concluding as, a brief waystation on a learning journey ..

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): The Stim-no-more statement ? . . . Bruce ponders.

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): what's that?

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): All I know is that since January of last year, Stim has not been active in WoK - since January 7, 2010

    Calvino Rabeni: It's something to make the Kira board happy, Alfred

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): "we the wokers will no longer allow Stim to join the group or in any other way affect our pure minds"?

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): :)

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): The Kira community wishes there to be an explicit statement on the wiki - that what we're doing in WoK now is not a continuance of Stim's original focus.

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): hmm, board happy?

    Mickorod Renard: I am lost

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I can put that into the wiki -- no problem.

    Calvino Rabeni: ok

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Stim is busy in Berkeley -- RL. And very good that he's active and serving so many there.

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): me too, Mick

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Lost, Mick?

    Calvino Rabeni: the WOK group originated as part of Kira, and was identified with Stim Moraine's work, and now it has a second independent life

    Mickorod Renard: ok,,time for a walk

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, Cal.

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I will email you, Boxy.

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): ok, thank you

    Mickorod Renard: ok,,time to go,,unless we are staying~?

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, it has to do with Storm's being on the Kira board... and a statement they are wanting in the WoK wiki now.

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): i see

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): sort of doing a quickie business thing, Mick.

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): no longer a WoK session (right now. . .)

    Mickorod Renard: ok

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): bureaucracy :)

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)

    Calvino Rabeni: politics

    Mickorod Renard: shall we call ourselves something else?

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I can also send you the same email I send to Boxy, Mick.

    Mickorod Renard: great

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): We might consider a new name - - however, that would involve starting a whole new wiki.

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and I don't feel up to that at the moment.

    Calvino Rabeni: if we call it something else, I think they would want the wiki to be separated completely as of 2 years ago

    Calvino Rabeni: that would be work :)

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, I agree, Cal.

    Calvino Rabeni: and lose some of the history which is nice to see

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): what a lot of unnecessary work, IMHO.

    Mickorod Renard: that's true

    Calvino Rabeni: yeah

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): the history is very valuable.

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and the evolution of this group is also valuable.

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): forking can be fun

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): forking is how it works, I suppose.

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): (he said rather indecisively.)

    Mickorod Renard: I look forward to the learning soon

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): me too, Mick.

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I shall be off now.

    Calvino Rabeni: Take care, Bruce, and thanks

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): maybe routes of knowing? :)

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): May all have a happy and comfortable holiday!

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): WoK

    Mickorod Renard: bye Brucie

    Calvino Rabeni: I shall be off also

    Calvino Rabeni: Bye mick, boxy :)

    Mickorod Renard: ok,,me too,,bye Cal, bye Boxy Bye Bruce

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): bye folks

    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): as shall I.

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): thank you

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): wait

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): what's next topic?

    Mickorod Renard: :)


    - - - -


    [Yes, what's our next topic? - -  Watch your inboxes, folks!]

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