05.05.2011 - Empathy

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    boxy (alfred.kelberry): wuff!
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey Darren -- Hey Alfred!
    leaping panther (darren.islar): today I can sit normal :)
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): wuff!
    Gaya Ethaniel: hihi :)
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): hi :)
    leaping panther (darren.islar): hi Gaya :)
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): cute bunny :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me thinks: These chairs are like a leash.
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): ok, i'll settle here near the bottle of wine
    Gaya Ethaniel: heheh
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): leash?
    leaping panther (darren.islar): only if you want to pass it on boxy :)
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): sure thing :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): It is an allusion to our earlier discussion, Al.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I know Atari won't be here. Dao and Mitsu probably can't make it either.
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): yes, bruce... i can see how it can be seen as a leash
    Gaya Ethaniel: Still let's give a few more minutes.
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): oh, are they alright?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I cannot even wave at folks when they arrive.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Just busy :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me sobs.
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): ok :)
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): gaya changed haircut :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well, how do you all feel about having a summer break in June? Some of us are away then.
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    leaping panther (darren.islar): that's okay with me
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I'm cool with whatever folks want and need.
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): or we can make it free to come meetings
    Gaya Ethaniel: How about your needs Bruce? :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hmmmmm.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me ponders his "needs."
    Gaya Ethaniel: We normally have a break but sure, that's another idea too Alfred.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): very few, actually.
    Gaya Ethaniel: At least I will be away for half of the meetings in June I think.
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me also ponders empathy -- for self.
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Shall I send an email out?
    leaping panther (darren.islar): (btw, I mean the wine, you can keep the bone :))
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): sure, that's good, Gaya.
    Gaya Ethaniel: OK will do that.
    leaping panther (darren.islar): sure thing
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): afk for just a moment. . .
    Gaya Ethaniel: So in case you didn't see, links for reports are here http://waysofknowing.kira.org/
    Gaya Ethaniel: np
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me is back.
    leaping panther (darren.islar): I have been away for a while, so I'm not sure what we have for discussion right now
    Gaya Ethaniel: wb
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): the topic is "empathy," Darren.
    Gaya Ethaniel: We will be discussing empathy Darren.
    leaping panther (darren.islar): thanks
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bruce (bruce.mowbray): For me, I am most "real" when I am able to empathize.
     Calvino Rabeni: Well I agree, Bruce, but also interested in how that works
     Fizakaal Wei: it allows you to let go of judgement
     Calvino Rabeni: perhaps in subtle ways
     Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I can relate to that
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me thinks -- Oh dear!
    leaping panther (darren.islar): I see, interesting topic
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Empathy is my most authentic connection to the world, I feel.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): (I really have no interest in "how it works," though.)
    Gaya Ethaniel: heheh
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well I'm not sure I can ever find out 'how it works'.
    leaping panther (darren.islar): ponders empathy
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): but am happy to listen to others on that.
    leaping panther (darren.islar): empathy seems to soften me up
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me loves the "softening."
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Zen!
    leaping panther (darren.islar): but I guess it only exists because we start to care
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): zen-san :)
    leaping panther (darren.islar): hey Zen :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I think most of us do care ...
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Actually, I feel that we start to care after we soften. . .
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
    leaping panther (darren.islar): most of all about ourselves, because we can only reach out if we 'understand'
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi all
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me realizes once again that he's a real odd ball on this stuff.
    leaping panther (darren.islar): /me wonders
    leaping panther (darren.islar): :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me does everything backwards.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... I may know what you mean by that Bruce ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sometimes I feel that way too :)
    leaping panther (darren.islar): :)
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): egoistic traits are inherent in humans
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): The only work I ever do is on myself. . .
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): so, first I soften myself. . .
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): my judgments -- my comparisons....
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and then I am able to ---
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): have the capacity to ---
    leaping panther (darren.islar): to me it feels like the egg and chicken, it's like a rotating ball, care, softness, care, softness
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): feel empathy for others.
    Zen (zen.arado): understand
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): egg and chicken? :)
    Zen (zen.arado): we put up a hard protective exterior
    Zen (zen.arado): protects us
    leaping panther (darren.islar): hmmm, that might be a Dutch expression, what came first, the egg or the chicken?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Unless I let go of my own shell -- there is little hope of my empathy . . .
    Zen (zen.arado): but keeps others out
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ... it's quite interesting.
    leaping panther (darren.islar): /me nods at Bruce
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): So, empathy, for me, begins with empathy for oneself.
    Zen (zen.arado): so empathy is also about opening?
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): zen, my soc teacher used to say "armor around us" :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, Al.
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    leaping panther (darren.islar): /me nods both at Bruce as Zen
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): There is great danger in "altruism" unless one first has empathy for one's own predicament.
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): when we come home and take it off we become vulnerable
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes sort of operating from another plane so to speak ...
    leaping panther (darren.islar): i think real empathy starts with the 'self' with realizing how hard it is to be 'perfect' and that we aren't with no means
    leaping panther (darren.islar): so how to judge others if you see your own imperfections
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): even in altruism there's an ego
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): a person feels good about himself in helping others
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Oh ESPECIALLY in altruism, Al!
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I am SUCH a GOOD person -- because I take care of everyone --
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): but neglect my own work?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think sense of self is always there ... it's more about not operating from that narrow ground.
    Zen (zen.arado): society teaches us to be competitive
    Zen (zen.arado): does that reduce empathy?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ... should include everyone :)
    leaping panther (darren.islar): I think that if you don't need anything in return, you can start to talk about true altruism
    Zen (zen.arado): in a way a team spirit is empathy?
    leaping panther (darren.islar): but that can be very tricky :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Wonderful points, Darren.
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): darren, you always get something
    leaping panther (darren.islar): yes, that's actually what I mean boxy
    Zen (zen.arado): empathy is the feeling that is before altruism
    leaping panther (darren.islar): so I guess altruims starts with becoming aware of that
    Gaya Ethaniel: That depends Zen, our team against another team also is being competitive :P
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Regarding the recipients of one's altruism as "others" can only make the "problems" worse....
    Zen (zen.arado): empathy could be seen as weakness
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think this is an interesting point that came up before Zen.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, weakness -- that's the "softening" part of it.
    leaping panther (darren.islar): /me nods at Bruce, good point
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): but it is actually strength, of course.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): to be strong enough to let others in.
    Zen (zen.arado): if you need to fire someone you don't want empathy
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm ...
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): why not?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): what are you protecting there?
    Zen (zen.arado): would make it more difficult
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): protecting?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): of course firing someone is difficult --
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): but who asked for an easy path?
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): darren, there's a kind of built-in mechanism that balances that - reciprocation. you feel indebted if someone made a favor to you.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Mindfulness asks that you know their pain.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and also, perhaps, the opportunities that the firing offers for them....
    Zen (zen.arado): yes...it's taking on the pain of others
    leaping panther (darren.islar): /me looks up reciprocation
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): reciprocation is like getting back what you send out to others.
    Zen (zen.arado): and the joy of others too of course
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): like having it "both ways."
    Zen (zen.arado): not all negative
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): nope.
    leaping panther (darren.islar): /me nods at boxy, but I don't' think that is such a worse thing, except when you're not aware of it
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): can be wonderfully positive, also.
    Zen (zen.arado): /me thinks empathy is natural
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): bruce, some scholars argue that this is what actually made collaboration possible
    Gaya Ethaniel: /me nods.
    Zen (zen.arado): but we bury it
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): oh yes, it is natural -- It is how we have survived as a species.
    leaping panther (darren.islar): to me awareness is so important, because we do have ego and we are not perfect, but it's the awareness that has a softening effect
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): without empathy, we'd never had made it this far.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and we will not make it much farther unless we practice empathy,
    Zen (zen.arado): it makes cooperation possible
    Zen (zen.arado): which is good for survival
    leaping panther (darren.islar): /me nods, but I think empathy is on more levels
    leaping panther (darren.islar): there is the 'animal' level that sustains our species
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me ponders whether flatulence is good for survival.
    leaping panther (darren.islar): what about the 'human' level
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): what do you mean, Darren?
    leaping panther (darren.islar): I think there is an evolutionary empathy
    leaping panther (darren.islar): and maybe one we can develop
    Zen (zen.arado): how do you know you have empathy?
    leaping panther (darren.islar): as a human
    leaping panther (darren.islar): if you suffer :)
    Zen (zen.arado): people with Asperger's are low in that
    Gaya Ethaniel: Maybe when someone points out to you Zen :)
    Zen (zen.arado): but you could be acting
    Zen (zen.arado): that's what Aspergers people do
    leaping panther (darren.islar): yes, but that could be well born out of empathy
    Zen (zen.arado): they learn socially acceptable ways
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sort of joking about that really ... I was on about how one just does stuff until someone comes along and label them ... not so helpful sometimes.
    leaping panther (darren.islar): though it's acting, they might do it not to harass others
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): label them?
    Zen (zen.arado): someone can tell you you are heartless
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): zen, it's hard to find people who don't act
    Zen (zen.arado): agree boxy
    leaping panther (darren.islar): with different levels, maybe compassion is a good example, great love is something completely different then what we consider to be love in daily life
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well what kind of 'action' ...
    Zen (zen.arado): we all do it to an extent
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): yes
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me does not feel that genuine empathy can be "acted."
    leaping panther (darren.islar): it's not that we're doing it that is the problem, not seeing it is
    Zen (zen.arado): but we can make it look as if we have it
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): bruce, actors do that pretty well on camera :)
    leaping panther (darren.islar): no Bruce but the acting can be part of empathy, not wanting to hurt others
    Gaya Ethaniel: I mentioned helping someone on the street in my report.
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): make me cry :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, but it's not what I'm calling 'empathy.'
    Gaya Ethaniel: It was pretty strange ...
    leaping panther (darren.islar): the intention I mean
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Ohhh-- good point, Darren.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): we act because we don't want to hurt others --
    Zen (zen.arado): we all like to give others a good impression
    Zen (zen.arado): too
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): but that assumes we have a larger vision than those we are protecting - about what's good for them
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): zen, more so, we act in accordance with what others see in us
    Gaya Ethaniel: I mean our normal self just charges through the day ... I stopped really abruptly after what seemed like a long time, passing that person.
    Gaya Ethaniel: So easy not to notice ...
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me has a really hard time in New York -- passing homeless folks on the sidewalk...
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): so he gives them money -- to help HIMSELF get past them... along his OWN way...
    leaping panther (darren.islar): /me nods at Bruce, that's a hard question
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): interesting, bruce
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh and there are still homeless people there
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I once encountered a homeless man on a mattress. . .
    Gaya Ethaniel: In London too ... I sometimes see them getting insulted just for being homeless and being on the street.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): right across the street from the Shambhala Center on 22nd St.
    leaping panther (darren.islar): /me nods at Zen, they don't go away because you give them some money
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and I paid him to tell me his story,..
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): oh, bruce
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and I profited so much more than he did from that!
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): (perhaps) -- I don't really know about him.
    Zen (zen.arado): good idea Bruce
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): can you tell us?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Well, I'd just come out for the meditation. . .
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and crossed the street.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and there was this man on a mattress... on the sidewalk!
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and I knelt down to talk with him. . .
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and he seemed shy. .
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): how old was he?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and I said, I will pay you five dollars for every 5 minutes that you tell me about yourself.
    leaping panther (darren.islar): maybe anxious
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): wow
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and he talked for about 20 minutes.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and it was the highlight of my trip to New York!
    leaping panther (darren.islar): :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): He was perhaps 23, or so.
    Gaya Ethaniel: :(
    leaping panther (darren.islar): maybe it was his highlight of the day too
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and he is black and I am white.
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): can you say a few things from his story?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Mmmm. . . .
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): darren, i think so :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): not sure I can--- except that he was living one day at a time and collecting cans from the streets and trash containers
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): to recycle.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and the next day was Memorial Day
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and I was worried that he'd not be able to recycle the cans...
    Zen (zen.arado): there is a fear that we might end up like that too
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): because of the holiday...
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and he assured me that he could.
    Zen (zen.arado): that is what people don't like
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): yes, zen
    Gaya Ethaniel: Probably yes ...
    leaping panther (darren.islar): yes Zen
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me listens.
    Zen (zen.arado): so we close off
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): i think a lot of them didn't expect to find themselves in this situation
    Zen (zen.arado): most city folk wouldn't even see the homeless
    Gaya Ethaniel: We don't want more problems, whatever seems like problems ...
    leaping panther (darren.islar): but most people try to compare themselves with those people, saying, oh I'm not like him, I'm not that far gone, instead of opening up and looking at their own fears
    Zen (zen.arado): it could happen frighteningly easily
    Zen (zen.arado): marriage breakup, illness...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ...
    leaping panther (darren.islar): punishing others for being scared ourselves
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): The awareness that homelessness could happen easily might help us to become more empathetic.
    leaping panther (darren.islar): /me nods
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): zen, yes, we don't notice what we get used to. including our close friends and relatives too sometimes...
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Zen (zen.arado): or more withdrawn
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): taking for granted
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm not sure if that's getting used to ...
    leaping panther (darren.islar): (sorry need a little break)
    Gaya Ethaniel: A bit like becoming numb right?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I was taking care of myself, actually.
    Gaya Ethaniel: np
    Zen (zen.arado): realizing that fear is a preventative for empathy
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): by giving the homeless man money for his story.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): because I'd realized that i could not walk the streets of New York without crying./
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): so i decided to do something for MYSELF there.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): That's why I gave the man money.
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): gaya, if you live in a city and see homeless people every other day - you stop noticing them. your mind just stops paying attention.
    Zen (zen.arado): if you lived in NY you would have become hard probably
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I also told him that, of course.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Not necessarily ... I still notice them after so many years. Often they smile at me ... sometimes stop me to say just hi :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): i hope not, Zen.
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): gaya, that's nice :)
    Zen (zen.arado): I had a problem with a guy on Facebook recently
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes.
    Gaya Ethaniel: They just want to say hi sometimes you know ... not even wanting money.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): who's to say that our condition is really better off than theirs?
    Zen (zen.arado): a black guy who lived in Uganda
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): i'd stop you to say hi too :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ha ha!
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): yes, having a conversation
    Gaya Ethaniel: Indeed Bruce, we can't say.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me listens to Zen.
    Zen (zen.arado): he friended me
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): bruce, yet, he'd swap with you in a second, i think
    Zen (zen.arado): and kept wanting to chat
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): zen, oh, you mean in sl?
    Zen (zen.arado): then he told me that his brother and sister needed money for education...
    Zen (zen.arado): on Facebook
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): ah
    Zen (zen.arado): did I know anyone who could send them money?
    Zen (zen.arado): and could I send some?
    Zen (zen.arado): so what do you do?
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... just say no?
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh
    Zen (zen.arado): you don't know what he would do with the money
    Zen (zen.arado): maybe he makes a living by friending people that way
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): If it's really a gift, then you don't care what he does with the money.
    Zen (zen.arado): so I didn't send him any money
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): maybe he's your neighbor :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I wouldn't have either, Zen.
    Zen (zen.arado): so am I lacking in empathy?
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... no, I'd done the same.
    leaping panther (darren.islar): no Zen (is picking up again)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): First, have empathy for yourself. . .
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): This is necessary -- first---
    leaping panther (darren.islar): we can't overlook the whole world
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): know your own values and your own boundaries...
    Zen (zen.arado): this applies to us all in a way
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): THEN, consider empathy for others.
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): right, bruce
    Zen (zen.arado): cos we know there are people starving in many countries
    Zen (zen.arado): though we do send money from time to time
    leaping panther (darren.islar): yes zen, but money won't help
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): zen, 1 billion vs almost 6 to be exact
    Zen (zen.arado): but we still retain our own wealth
    leaping panther (darren.islar): we need to reconsider the way we live to overcome the problems of these days
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): and... when you have empathy for yourself, you might discover that you need to give all of your worldly possessions to help the starving. ..
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): or you might not.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Empathy is not either/or morality.
    Zen (zen.arado): Jesus was very specific about giving your money to the poor
    leaping panther (darren.islar): we still distract more money from those countries then we give
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): he had a specific audience, too.
    Zen (zen.arado): though he also said 'the poor you will always have among you'
    Zen (zen.arado): so empathy with wisdom..
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Strange thing that some of the happiest people are living in some of the poorest countries.
    Zen (zen.arado): yes :)
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): you can't fix the problem of poverty without changing culture
    leaping panther (darren.islar): there is a lot that has been said about the poor by many teachers
    Zen (zen.arado): we are so wrapped up in our possessions
    leaping panther (darren.islar): and they seem to conflict each other
    Gaya Ethaniel: They don't have much to protect ... no need for CCTV :P
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): You cannot fix anything without fixing yourself.
    leaping panther (darren.islar): but I guess they don't :)
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): gaya :)
    Zen (zen.arado): :)
    leaping panther (darren.islar): CCTV??
    Gaya Ethaniel: Some houses have them ...
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)\
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): i imagine how many tapes of me are stored in various places :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): closed circuit TV.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): surveillance TV's.
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    leaping panther (darren.islar): ah... :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): There are THOUSANDS of them in the United Kingdom.
    Gaya Ethaniel: mhm
    leaping panther (darren.islar): bosy ! what have you been doing ?? :)))
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): literally thousands.
    Zen (zen.arado): they don't have in the US?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): oh yes, in US also.
    Gaya Ethaniel: We have the most CCTV in the world I think Zen.
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): darren, living in a city :)
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): where are you, gaya!, if I might ask.
    leaping panther (darren.islar): :) boxy
    Zen (zen.arado): big brother
    Zen (zen.arado): 1984 is here
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): and we got used to them too
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I thought Gaya was in England.
    Gaya Ethaniel: So ... time to discuss about next week's topic ... I know some of you like this unstructured format, wonder if some wants something different like a theme over few weeks?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yep I am.
    Zen (zen.arado): I am watching all of you on my screen :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :P
    leaping panther (darren.islar): hahaha Zen :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): sure, Gaya, that sounds good.
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): um...
    Gaya Ethaniel: I mean we have so many suggestions on forum ... like the quote generator by Dao or maybe we can even try a book.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me runs to put on clothes.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Dao :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): You decide, OK?
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): wait, quote generator?
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I will happily follow your suggestion.
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Dao :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bruce ... I'm well known for not choosing ...
    Dao Yheng: Hi all! What'd I miss :)
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): dao :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think I choose more than I normally do in SL ...
    leaping panther (darren.islar): a book is difficult with people from other countries then English speaking ones
    leaping panther (darren.islar): hi Dao :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): OH dear-- Dao must be in a different time zone today.
    Gaya Ethaniel: http://www.mpeters.de/nisargadatta/index.cfm
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): not much, we talked about empathy and surveillance :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: This gives you different quote each time I think.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): What do you mean "Not much"???
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): ah, nice
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): we had a wonderful talk!
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): bruce, i didn't want to make dao feel bad for missing out on a wonderful talk :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I've got this one - There is nothing like ignorance, only inattention. After all, worry is a mental pain and pain is invariably a call for attention. The moment you give attention, the call for it ceases and the question of ignorance dissolves. Attention brings you back to the present, the now, and the presence in the now is a state ever at hand, but rarely notice.
    Dao Yheng: I'm in some kind of hazy zone today, yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: :(
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I'll need to ponder that some more, Gaya....
    leaping panther (darren.islar): ohw... need to read that later gaya, but I go along with it :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Another one - The person is merely the result of a misunderstanding. In reality, there is no such thing. Feelings, thoughts and actions race before the watcher in endless succession, leaving traces in the brain and creating an illusion of continuity. A reflection of the watcher in the mind creates the sense of "I" and the person acquires an apparently independent existence. In reality there is no person, only the watcher identifying himself with the "I" and the "mine".
    Zen (zen.arado): sure
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): me too, Gaya.
    Zen (zen.arado): is it Eckhart Tolle?
    leaping panther (darren.islar): sorry, too much info in one sentence for me :))
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): 831 quotes in a database :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Nisargadatta
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): whew!
    Zen (zen.arado): ok
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zen (zen.arado): think Tolle gets a lot of his teachngs there
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): THANKS< everyone.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I need to move along now.
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): May all be happy and empathetic.
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): say hi to your dog, bruce :)
    leaping panther (darren.islar): thanks Bruce, see you :)
    Dao Yheng: Nice to see you
    Gaya Ethaniel: Nice seeing you Bruce :)
    leaping panther (darren.islar): hope you can make it tomorrow?
    Zen (zen.arado): bye Bruce :)
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): "You need not stop thinking. Just cease being interested. It is disinterestedness that liberates. Don't hold on, that is all."
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): can't do that :)
    Dao Yheng: Here's a snippet from a longer quote: Liberation is not an acquisition but a matter of courage, the courage to believe that you are free already and to act on it.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I will pick one and post on wiki after :) Bruce will be helping me with it. I will send a notice to the effect.
    Dao Yheng: OK, thanks Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ... freedom is a good topic.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Freedom ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): btw, can you imagine how much semantic do we lose during translation?
    leaping panther (darren.islar): you folks decide :)
    Dao Yheng: freedom from having to choose is a nice one :)
    Zen (zen.arado): yep
    Gaya Ethaniel: No one wants to decide in these meetings ... :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes :)
    leaping panther (darren.islar): it's just going too fast Gaya....
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): the next topic you mean, gaya?
    Gaya Ethaniel: heheh
    Gaya Ethaniel: No, we are all so accommodating, that's what I mean.
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh..nobody says 'I don't want to do that'
    Zen (zen.arado): :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    leaping panther (darren.islar): :)
    leaping panther (darren.islar): maybe we can avoid that by roulating the one that comes up with a topic?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well Dao, I'm glad you could join even at the end.
    Gaya Ethaniel: roulating?
    Dao Yheng: something interesting often comes out of doing something we didn't want to do before
    Dao Yheng: me too,
    Zen (zen.arado): have to go folks
    Zen (zen.arado): bye
    Dao Yheng: have a good evening all!
    leaping panther (darren.islar): see you Zen :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night all :)

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